IRA Conversion Strategies and Reading Economic Signals During a Shutdown

Summary

NerdWallet's Smart Money Podcast

Episode: IRA Conversion Strategies and Reading Economic Signals During a Shutdown
Date: November 13, 2025
Hosts: Elizabeth Ayoola, Sean Pyles, and guest experts Elizabeth Renter and June Sham

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Overview

This episode explores two major topics:

1. Interpreting Economic Signals During the Government Shutdown – A look at what alternative, private economic data sources (and some quirky indicators) suggest about the US economy when official federal data is unavailable.
2. IRA Conversion Strategies – A deep-dive into the pros, cons, and strategies of converting traditional IRAs to Roth IRAs, with actionable advice for individuals nearing retirement.

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Segment 1: Economic Signals During the Shutdown

Guest: Elizabeth Renter, NerdWallet Economist

The Challenge: Limited Federal Data

• Government shutdown since October 1st has paused federal economic reporting.
• Reliance shifts to private sector data and unconventional indicators for insight.

Elizabeth Ayoola (Host) introduces the challenge:
“Now, since the government shut down on October 1st, we’ve had almost no federal economic data...we have to rely on private sector data to get a picture of how the economy is actually doing.” (01:59)

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Key Private Data Reports and Their Context

1. Labor Market Data

• ADP Employment Report (03:25):

  • Showed +42,000 jobs in October.
  • Gains concentrated in healthcare, education, trade, and transportation.
  • Only covers private industry (misses government jobs, smaller firms, gig economy).
  • “These gains were pretty narrow, meaning they were concentrated across just a few industries...It may underrepresent smaller businesses and the gig economy.” – Elizabeth Renter (03:25)

• Challenger, Gray & Christmas Layoff Data (04:51):

  • October saw highest announced layoffs in a month since 2003.
  • Measures planned job cuts from company announcements—can overstate actual layoffs.
  • Not always aligned with reality: “What they plan to do and what happens are two different things.” – Elizabeth Renter (04:51)
  • Layoffs currently prominent in certain sectors (e.g., tech), but not at a crisis level economy-wide.

2. Additional Data Points

• Revelio Labs (Professional profile changes):

  • Estimated employment fell by 9,000 in October.
  • Includes government workers.

• Chicago Fed’s Nowcast:

  • Layoffs and unemployment relatively unchanged.

Conclusion:
All sources indicate “gradual cooling” of the job market—not a dramatic downturn.

“The labor market is indeed cooling, but not at a dramatic pace.” – Elizabeth Renter (06:18)

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Consumer Sentiment and Expectations

• University of Michigan Survey:

  • Sentiment is “in the tank,” especially regarding personal finances and the economic outlook.
  • Exception: Investors/stockholders felt marginally more optimistic. (07:30)

• New York Fed Survey:

  • Improved credit outlook, but more pessimism on employment.
  • Based on October data—timing is key in interpretation.

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Quirky Economic Indicators

1. Corrugated Box Indicator:

• Decreased demand = less demand for goods overall.
• Box manufacturers cutting production. Tariffs may also play a role.
• “Demand for boxes can be a proxy or a stand in for the demand for goods.” – Elizabeth Renter (08:38)

2. Champagne Indicator:

• Lower champagne sales could signal reduced luxury spending, but confounded by trends (young people drinking less, domestic substitutions, seasonality).

3. Men’s Underwear Index (Greenspan):

• Slower underwear sales = possible financial constraints in households.
• “If people are pulling back on necessities like replacing their underwear, the economy is in bad shape, or so they say, right?” – Elizabeth Renter (10:18)
• Many caveats: Price changes and alternative explanations.

Other Fun/Funky Signals:

• Lipstick sales, mini alcohol bottles, snack food sales, law school applications, used clothing sales, strip club spending, dry cleaning, diaper sales, rash ointment purchases.

Big Caveat:

• “Correlation does not equal causation.”
• “Maybe don’t hang your hat on them...don’t make financial decisions based on what’s going on with underwear demand.” – Elizabeth Renter (12:14)

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Notable Quotes & Humor

• “Champagne or underwear. So all fun conversations to have during a tough economy.” – Elizabeth Ayoola (11:13)
• “I never thought I’d be on a podcast talking about men’s underwear.” – Elizabeth Renter (10:18)

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[13:08] Segment 2: IRA Conversion Strategies

Listener Question from Daniel. Guest expert: June Sham, Investing Nerd

IRA Basics Refresher

• 401(k)s: Workplace retirement plans, often with employer match.
• IRAs: Individual Retirement Accounts (open to nearly anyone).
• Traditional: Pre-tax, lowers taxable income now, taxed upon withdrawal.
• Roth: Post-tax, no tax on withdrawals in retirement. Income limits apply (2025: $150k single, ~$240k married filing jointly).

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Guidelines for IRA Contributions

General Approach:

• Start with workplace plans, especially if employer matches.
• Max out IRA for broader investment choices (but lower annual limit).
• Back to workplace accounts if maxed IRA.
• Self-employed? Look into Solo 401k or SIMPLE IRA.

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Traditional vs. Roth: How to Decide

• Consider current vs. future tax brackets.
• Roth: Better if you expect to be in a higher tax bracket upon retirement.
• Traditional: Better if you expect to be in a lower bracket later; allows immediate tax savings.

“A simple way to decide between Roth and traditional...think about where your tax bracket is now and consider where it may be in the future.” – June Sham (17:58)

Flexibility:

• It’s OK to divide contributions between both types.
• Personal stories show a variety of strategies.
  • Sean: Currently all pre-tax for current tax deduction, but has split strategies previously due to large life expenses (wedding).
  • June: All Roth for flexibility and delayed gratification.

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Converting a Traditional IRA to a Roth IRA

Why Convert?

• Moves funds into Roth account with tax-free withdrawals.
• No required minimum distributions (RMDs) for Roth IRAs.
• Funds can continue growing for heirs, with better tax treatment.

“Your money can stay invested for much longer and also passed down to your heirs tax free.” – June Sham (20:26)

Trade-Offs & Cautions:

• Conversion is a taxable event; pay taxes now on converted funds.
• Can push into a higher tax bracket, impact Medicare premiums.
• Withdrawals of conversion amounts only penalty/tax-free after 5 years (first-in, first-out).

“You’ll need to pay taxes on it now...it can leave them with less money in their Roth IRA overall if they can’t cover the bill without it.” – June Sham (20:50)

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Strategies for Roth Conversions

• Best during low-income years to minimize taxes.
• Consider during periods of high inflation or early in the tax year.
• For large conversions: “Roth conversion ladder” (spread over several years to avoid tax bracket jumps).

“If our listener has a lot of money to convert, they may want to spread that conversion over multiple years through something that’s called a Roth conversion ladder.” – June Sham (21:35)

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Situational Considerations

• Sometimes, Roth contributions aren’t an option when income is too high, so conversion is a backdoor path.
• In early retirement, conversions may make sense as income drops but before mandatory distributions begin.

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Professional Advice:

• IRA conversions involve many personal factors and complicated IRS rules. Always consult a tax professional for tailored advice.

“If you’re in the early stages of thinking about this, definitely talk to a tax preparer or financial advisor.” – June Sham (23:07)

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Notable Quotes & Segment Highlights

• On quirky indicators:
  “Maybe don’t make financial decisions based on unmentionables.” – Elizabeth Ayoola (12:55)

• On contributions
  “I think I’m someone who likes delayed gratification and so I’m kind of hoping that in the future I can save on those taxes then.” – June Sham (19:45)

• On conversion trade-offs:
  “You’ll need to pay taxes on it now. Some people factor this into their conversion amount, but it can leave them with less money in their Roth IRA overall if they can’t cover the bill without it.” – June Sham (20:50)

• On splitting contributions:
  “You don’t have to go all in on a specific type of contribution and in your accounts too. So you can kind of split the difference each year depending on your goals.” – June Sham (19:45)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [01:59] Main theme set up (economic indicators without federal data)
• [03:12] Labor market data deep dive
• [07:10] Consumer sentiment reports
• [08:21] The “quirky” economic indicators section begins (cardboard, champagne, underwear, etc.)
• [13:08] IRA strategies segment begins (listener question introduced)
• [16:06] IRA types and prioritization
• [17:58] Roth vs. traditional: tax implications
• [20:26] Why consider a Roth conversion
• [21:35] Roth conversion ladder strategy explained
• [23:07] June’s final advice: consult a financial advisor

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Conclusion

• Economic segment takeaway: Look at a range of data (and don’t over-index on weird indicators) for a realistic view of where the economy is heading.
• Retirement & IRA takeaway: Consider your current and projected future tax situation when choosing or converting between Roth and traditional IRAs, and always seek professional advice for big financial moves.

Listener call to action:
“Remember, listener, that we are here to answer your money questions. So turn to the nerds and call or text us your questions at 901-730-6373.” (23:36)

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This episode provides a lively, practical look at how to both interpret uncertain economic news and make smart moves with retirement accounts—even in complex situations.

Transcript

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[A]

The list of choices for retirement savings is like a menu, and sometimes it's hard to decide what's going to work best for you. So today we're going to look at Roth IRAs versus traditional IRAs as savings vehicles. Welcome to NerdWallet's Smart Money podcast, where you send us your money questions and we answer them with the help of our genius nerds, Elizabeth I'm Elizabeth Ayola. Later this episode we'll be discussing traditional IRAs versus Roth IRAs and how to Know what's best for your situation. But first up, we have our weekly Money News Roundup where we break down the latest in the world of finance to help you be smarter with your money. Now, since the government shut down on October 1st, we've had almost no federal economic data, which means we have to rely on private sector data to get a picture of how the economy is actually doing today, as the shutdown may be ending. NerdWallet economist Elizabeth Renter is here and she's gonna talk about what some of that data, including some non traditional indicators, signal about where the economy is today. Hey, Elizabeth. Fellow Elizabeth, welcome back to Smart Money.

[D]

Hey, thanks, Elizabeth. It's great to be back.

[A]

Let's start with recent labor data. Last week there was a report from adp, a management services company. And I want you to tell us about some of the findings of that report.

[D]

The ADP employment report showed a gain of 42,000 jobs in October, which is good, but I'd stop short of calling it strong. The reason being these gains were pretty narrow, meaning they were concentrated across just a few industries, primarily health care, education and trade, and transportation. It's important when we talk about any economic data set, including this alternate labor market data, that we understand the context or nuance. So what makes this data unique and what is it truly measuring? The unique thing about ADP is it measures only the private industry. So we're missing out on government jobs. And government jobs are a pretty important element in 2025, including right now this month. So this data source also tends to be most reliable for larger companies, and it may underrepresent smaller businesses and the gig economy. All of this can impact the numbers they release, and it also impacts how these numbers compare to other data sources.

[A]

But then Challenger, Gray and Christmas, an executive outplacement firm, reported that October had the highest number of layoffs in one month since 2003. And that's in the aftermath of the dot com bubble burst and decreased demand for travel and hospitality lingering from the September 11th attacks. We're in a very different situation today. So, Liz, what are some of the factors contributing to layoffs now, and is it hitting certain sectors worse than others?

[D]

Well, this release from Challenger, Gray and Christmas made really big headlines last week. Big numbers often do. But again, we need to take a step back and better understand what they're measuring and what makes this data unique. Challenger, Gray and Christmas Measure announced job cuts in hiring. So they look at press releases and other public information where companies are coming out and saying, you know, we plan to cut our workforce. But oftentimes, what they plan to do and what happens are two different things. The magnitude of these announcements can differ from what you would see in actual counts taken from the official BLA reports. For example, the timing might not align if layoffs are done across a series of days or weeks. And something might change between the time that they announce it and the time they start executing. But companies may also just remove open job listings and call that a reduced headcount rather than laying people off. So figures from this firm tend to overstate job cuts. That doesn't mean layoffs aren't happening right now. They are. We've heard about Amazon most recently and some other tech firms, but there isn't enough evidence to say definitively that layoffs are are happening at a rate and across the economy in a way that should cause alarm.

[A]

Those are important details not to leave out that I wouldn't have thought of off the top of my head. Now, last month, after the Fed made its decision to cut rates, Fed chair Jerome Powell said that the labor market is experiencing a, quote, very gradual cooling. Would you say this latest data reflects that?

[D]

So I think these two data sources that we were just talking about them alone aren't enough to make that determination. But I think if you pair them with some other data sources and sort of the trajectory or the direction of the official BLS data before the shutdown, all of this does point to a gradual cooling. So Revelio Labs is another private data source that came out last week. They measure changes in professional online profiles. So think about LinkedIn when you change your status to open to work. And they estimated employment fell by 9,000 in October. But unlike ADP, they include government workers. So they're capturing some people that ADP doesn't. And then the Chicago Fed's nowcast data suggests that layoffs in unemployment were relatively unchanged last month. So all of these alternate sources and a few others paired with what we're hearing from workers and employers suggest that the labor market is indeed cooling, but not at a dramatic pace.

[A]

All this data is important, but I think it's also important to factor in how people are feeling. So let's turn to that. Two reports came out in the last week, the University of Michigan Survey of Consumers and the New York Fed Survey of Consumer Expectations came out. Now, what did those reports indicate about where consumers are right now?

[D]

Well, the University of Michigan's consumer sentiment data is really a staple in evaluating how people are feeling about the economy. It's a reliable source that's been around for a long time, decades. And their initial November data showed economic sentiment is really in the tank, particularly when it comes to how people are feeling about their personal finances, so how money is looking in their household and also the future of the economy. This was true across demographics, political affiliation, age, income. With one exception, people who hold stocks had a notable improvement in sentiment. As for the New York Fed's data, it was a bit more of a mixed bag. People's feelings about their credit improved, but several questions about the labor market worsened. One call out for the New York Fed, this was an October data set. So while the government was shut down, it was far earlier in the stalemate than the Michigan survey.

[A]

All right, let's move on to some other indicators that are kind of quirky. First up, we have corrugated boxes. In September, Virginia Tech economists found that there's been weaker demand for corrugated boxes. What does the cardboard box indicators signal? Elizabeth?

[D]

Well, domestic cardboard box manufacturers aren't having a great year and several of them have actually announced reduced production, including some closing down manufacturing facilities. This is notable because demand for boxes can be a proxy or a stand in for the demand for goods. You know, when you order something, it comes in one of those boxes. And that's true for all consumers, not to mention businesses and retailers buying supplies and inventory. So this so called indicator suggests that waning demand for boxes points to waning demand for goods overall. This certainly could be the case. And tariffs could also be impacting this as well, as many boxes are used to send goods overseas.

[A]

Next we have another one that is pretty quirky, the champagne indicator. The theory here is that people cut back on more expensive alcohol like champagne, and I'm talking real champagne from the champagne region in France. What does the data show this year, Elizabeth?

[D]

So I think this one is a little less useful as a broader indicator. The theory here is that reduced spending on luxury items like champagne could indicate a broader pullback in spending. And you know, I suppose it could, but it could also indicate better domestic alternatives or reduced spending on alcohol overall. We've all seen the reporting around Americans, and particularly younger Americans that are drinking less now. So there are many potential variables at play in reduced champagne sales. Also, there's some seasonality issues. Champagne sales generally spike in the fourth quarter, so the industry could still undo some of the weakness of the past few quarters as we enter the holiday season.

[A]

Okay, I have a few more. The economist Alan Greenspan popularized the men's underwear index. Can you explain what this is?

[D]

I can, Elizabeth, but I never thought I'd be on a podcast talking about men's underwear. So if people are pulling back on necessities like replacing their underwear, the economy is in bad shape, or so they say, right? You can look at price growth of underwear as a proxy or a stand in for demand. You kind of need to do that because underwear sales data is something that's not really easy to pin down on a frequent basis. So if underwear prices are rising rapidly, it could be because demand for underwear is high. A lot of people are replacing their underwear. On the other hand, if price growth is stagnant or not growing, maybe people aren't replacing their underwear like they normally are. And that apparently is a sign of household financial constraint. The problem here, like the problem with the champagne discussion, is that there are a lot of other potential explanations. And like the champagne discussion, I wouldn't lean too hard on this as an indicator.

[A]

Well, I will say it does make for a pretty funny discussion. Champagne or underwear. So all fun conversations to have during a tough economy.

[D]

Indeed.

[A]

We don't have time to talk about every weird indicator in depth, but I'm going to run down a few of them quickly. We also have the lipstick indicator. During economic downturn, sales of relatively inexpensive cosmetics like lipstick tend to rise. We have the mini bottle alcohol indicator. When times are tough, people buy smaller bottles to save money. The snack IND later snacks are cheap, so sales hold steady or they rise. We have the used clothing sales rise. Law school applications because more people go back to school. We also have spending at strip clubs going down. Another good conversation to have dry cleaning sales fall, diaper sales go down, and rash ointment increases. Now there are more unconventional indicators, but Elizabeth, what are some of the caveats to consider when looking at these types of trends?

[D]

So the list of caveats is probably longer than the list you just read off. First off, these are just correlations, right? And most of us have heard the statistical warning that correlation does not equal causation. If we wanted to say for certain that any one of these things were surely an economic indicator, we'd really need to rule out any other potential causes. Are people drinking less champagne because they can't afford it or because consumer tastes are changing? Or are there measurement or seasonality issues like a weak third quarter that will be undone with a strong fourth? I think some of these indicators can be useful and fun to talk about, but maybe don't hang your hat on them. In other words, don't make financial decisions based on what's going on with underwear demand.

[A]

I think that's a good note to end on, so maybe don't make financial decisions based on unmentionables.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Elizabeth Renter, Always so great to have you on the show and thanks for being with us today.

[D]

Thanks, Elizabeth.

[A]

Up next, we answer listeners question about whether it's best to save retirement money in a Roth IRA or a traditional ira. But before we get into that, a reminder to send us your money questions. Whether you need help planning for next year's financial goals or you want to know strategies to grow your money, leave us a voicemail or text us on the Nerd Hotline at 901-730-6373. That's 901-730-NERD. Send us an email [e-mail] in a moment. This episode's money question Stay with us.

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N B I L T.com smartmoney. Make sure to use our URL so they know we sent you we're back and answering your money questions to help you make smarter financial decisions. This episode's question comes from Daniel, who sent us an email. I'm an older listener of your podcast and I absolutely love it. I understand why you target more of your content toward youngins, but what about content on preparing and saving for retirement in Roth IRAs versus traditional IRAs mixed in with 401s? As I get closer to retirement, I'm now faced with converting regular IRAs to Roths when there might have been times when I was younger to focus more on Roths. Keep up the great work. To help us answer Daniel's question on this episode of the podcast, we're joined by investing nerd June Sham. June, welcome back to Smart Money.

[C]

Thanks Sean.

[B]

We'll start by quickly laying out the retirement options that Daniel mentioned in their question. 401ks are as most folks know, workplace retirement plans and IRAs or individual retirement accounts can be opened by just about anyone, regardless of where you work. 401ks and IRAs generally come in two flavors. They're Roth or traditional. Traditional is pre tax, meaning it can reduce your taxable income but you'll pay taxes on what you withdraw in retirement, while Roth is just the opposite. You contribute with after tax dollars and your withdrawals are tax free in retirement. The catch with Roth IRAs is that you can't contribute the full amount to them if you earn over a certain amount. In 2025, that amount is $150,000 for single tax filers and around $240,000 for mar couples filing jointly. Now with that quick refresher out of the way, June, I can see how deciding which to invest in and in what order can be pretty confusing. So can you lay out some general rules of thumb or guidelines that folks should be aware of?

[C]

That's actually a really great summary, Sean, because it can get pretty complicated very quickly. A simple rule of thumb is to start with workplace retirement plans. That's especially true if your employer matches contributions. After contributing enough to earn the match, you can prioritize an IRA, which can have more investment options compared to your 401 1k provider. IRAs do have lower annual contribution limits though, so once you've contributed the max but you still have more and want to keep saving for retirement, you can go back to your workplace retirement account. If you're self employed, a freelancer, or run your own business, you can follow the same general framework in place of a workplace retirement plan. There are specific retirement accounts such as a Solo 401 or a simple IRA that you can look into.

[B]

A big question in the retirement contribution space, which our listener touched on, is when to make Roth contributions or traditional contributions. What are your thoughts here, June?

[C]

If you're deciding between which of the two to prioritize right now, a simple way to decide between Roth and traditional contributions right now is to think about where your tax bracket is now and consider where it may be in the future. If you think it might be higher, a Roth contribution could make sense. That's because right now your contributions are taxed at your current ordinary income rate, but you'll withdraw earnings tax free in retirement. If you think you'll be in a lower tax bracket, you might want to make traditional contributions since withdrawals in retirement will be taxed at that lower rate. This can get a little complicated because we can't fully predict our future earnings or even tax bracket changes. There are also rules around traditional IRA deductions and Roth IRA contributions, which means that your choice every year could change.

[B]

The good news for the indecisive out there is that you don't have to contribute everything to a traditional account or everything to a Roth account. You can split it between the two types of accounts. So, June, I'd like to hear how you as an investing writer approach this with your own retirement contributions.

[C]

I choose to do all Roth because I really like the flexibility that this account offers. I like that I can take my contributions out at any time and not get taxed on it or not get penalized.

[B]

At the current moment, I am all pre tax because I like the benefit of the immediate tax deduction. In the past, I have kind of split it between Roth and traditional. But I actually am in this kind of tough spot right now financially, where I'm saving a lot for my wedding. I have this big expense coming up, so I actually reduce the amount that I'm putting into my retirement account and I decided to pull that from my Roth. So that's a long winded way of me saying, like, you can have some flexibility, but I personally want the tax benefit of the pre tax deductions. And I'm wondering why you are entirely Roth given that you can get such a nice immediate tax deduction if you were to go more traditional.

[C]

I think I'm someone who likes delayed gratification and so I'm kind of hoping that in the future I can save on those taxes then. But I think you bring up a really good point, Sean, where you don't have to go all in on on a specific type of contribution and in your accounts too. So you can kind of split the difference each year depending on your goals. Like it's not completely set forever.

[B]

Our listener seems to regret some of their past retirement contributions, the strategy that they had in the past. They said that they're now left converting their traditional IRAs to Roth. So can you talk about why converting from a traditional to a Roth can be beneficial? What's kind of the thinking behind that?

[C]

We touched on it a little bit earlier. Converting a traditional IRA to a Roth is beneficial because your money is now in a Roth account and the withdrawals are tax free. Another benefit is that Roth IRAs don't have required minimum distribution, so you're not forced to make withdrawals after a certain age. Your money can stay invested for much longer and also passed down to your heirs tax free.

[B]

And what about trade offs of making this move because it's not free to do.

[C]

Yeah, it's not free. They are considered taxable events, and that's because you might have received a tax deduction for those traditional IRA contributions. So you'll need to pay taxes on it now. Some people factor this into their conversion amount, but it can leave them with less money in their Roth IRA overall if they can't cover the bill without it. You'll also have to factor in if this conversion bumps you into a higher tax bracket for the year or raises Medicare premiums. And while it's true that you can take out Roth IR contributions at any time, these conversions can only be withdrawn after five years and are withdrawn on a first in, first out basis. So, for example, for our listener, if they start converting this year, they're not able to withdraw their conversion until 2030.

[B]

And there are multiple strategies for how to do Roth conversions. Can you talk us through some of them?

[C]

These strategies really hinge on timing. Roth conversions are ideal during low income years to reduce the cost of conversion during periods of high inflation to help recoup more of your investment once the market stabilizes and early in the tax year so you have more time to pay your tax bill. Though this last one may not apply if you pay estimated taxes. If our listener has a lot of money to convert, they may want to spread that conversion over multiple years through something that's called a Roth conversion ladder.

[B]

Your point about timing is really, really important to emphasize. For many folks who are just entering retirement, they might want to consider doing Roth conversions now, since their income may well be lower than in the years right before retirement. Our listener said that they're currently doing Roth conversions and it seems like they're nearing retirement, so it could be a good idea for them. But again, we are not their investment or financial advisor, so they should be talking to their own professional for guidance on that. But this also raises the question of why people would even want to do a conversion in the first place rather than just contribute to a Roth account earlier in their lives. For some, contributing to a Roth account actually isn't possible due to their income being too high. Or maybe a conversion is a better tax planning strategy now than contributing to a Roth was when they were in their earlier earning years. So this can be the case if they're in retirement and maybe want to convert some of their retirement funds to Roth dollars To avoid those RMDs, the required minimum distributions that you mentioned earlier, June. So clearly a lot of factors go into which type of account you might want to contribute to when you would want to convert it, if you want to at all.

[C]

Yeah, there's so much that goes into it.

[B]

All right, well, this was a short and sweet money question, June. Any other thoughts you'd like to leave our listeners with?

[C]

As we've covered, things can get fairly complicated very quickly with Roth conversions. If you're in the early stages of thinking about this, definitely talk to a tax preparer or financial advisor. They can help you look at the bigger picture of your financial situation and goals, create a roadmap for you, and just help you understand what's waiting for you when you get started.

[B]

All right, well thanks so much for coming on and since I'm flying solo hosting this segment, I'm going to have you join me and do the wrap up, so I'll let you kick it off.

[C]

Thanks Sean. And that's all we have for this episode. Remember, listener, that we are here to answer your money questions. So turn to the nerds and call or text us your questions at 901-730-6373. That's 901-730 N E R D. You can also email [e-mail] join us next.

[B]

Time to hear about how to beef up your emergency savings. Follow Smart Money on your favorite podcast app, including Spotify, Apple Podcasts and iHeartRadio to automatically download new episodes.

[C]

And here's our brief disclaimer. We are not your financial advisors or investment advisors. This nerdy info is provided for general educational and entertainment purposes and may not apply to your specific circumstances.

[B]

This episode was produced by Tess Viglund and Ana Hilhoskey. Hilary Georgie helped with editing. Nick Karisimi mixed our audio. And a big thank you to NerdWallet's editors for all their help.

[C]

And with that said, until next time, turn to the nerds.

[A]

And now, a scary story, brought to you by Instacart. Saturday was busy, but now it's Sunday. So you're rotting in bed, and that's.

[D]

When you start to smell something rotten.

[A]

And it's not you.

[C]

You follow the smell to the laundry.

[A]

Room, where you find a full pile of laundry and an empty container of detergent. Panic sets in. But then you open Instacart and order everything you need to get your life.

[D]

Back together delivered in as fast as.

[C]

30 minutes for one less Sunday.

[A]

Scary.

[B]

We're here.