Money Lessons From Our Moms and How to Budget With an HSA on a High-Deductible Plan

Summary

NerdWallet’s Smart Money Podcast

Episode Summary: Money Lessons From Our Moms and How to Budget With an HSA on a High-Deductible Plan

Date: May 11, 2026
Hosts: Sean Pyles & Elizabeth Ayola
Guest Nerd: Kate Ashford

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Main Theme

This episode blends heartfelt reflections and actionable advice as the hosts celebrate Mother’s Day by sharing personal money lessons learned from their moms and fellow NerdWallet staffers. In the second half, the show shifts to a deep dive into using a Health Savings Account (HSA) on a High Deductible Health Plan (HDHP)—addressing a listener’s struggle with suddenly higher out-of-pocket healthcare costs, HSA strategy, budgeting, and maximizing benefits.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Mother’s Day Money Lessons: Core Memories & Modeling Money Values

• You Can’t Buy Core Memories
  • Erin Elisa (NerdWallet writer): The memories that matter most to kids are often the simple, inexpensive moments—like snuggling with a parent or playing games—not the splashy, expensive vacations.
    • “You can't buy your children’s core memories...what they’ll remember might be the things that didn’t cost anything at all.” (05:00)
• Contentment & Avoiding Comparison
  • Amanda Barroso (NerdWallet writer): “Raising kids is basically a daily exercise in contentment—for them and for me.” (07:47)
  • She stresses focusing on enough, resisting external pressures to overspend, and channeling resources to what lasts (future savings, experiences).
• Teaching Control with Allowances
  • Kate Ashford (NerdWallet): Giving kids an allowance lets them feel the true value of money—“The moment we were able to give them control of their own money was the moment I felt like they grasped more about it.” (10:39)
• Building Financial Security for Kids
  • Pamela de La Fuente (NerdWallet): Introduces the 529 education fund and ABLE accounts for special needs, sharing how automation makes long-term saving easy. “We just automate our contributions to both, set and forget.” (13:34)
• Gaps in Financial Education
  • Sean’s Mom, Jean: Public schools don’t teach budgeting or financial planning, so she opened joint checking accounts for her kids, making them manage their spending directly.
    • “Instead of just giving you cash for allowance money…I put that money into a checking account for you. And you had to budget it yourself.” (14:41)
• Teaching Through Daily Choices & Conversations
  • Elizabeth Ayola: Highlights daily conversations about costs (“a tomato costs $5!”), and modeling intentional spending, reframing “I can’t afford it” to “I’m choosing not to do this so I can do that.” (16:19)
  • She notes that her son, Ayo, calls out her impulse buys, reinforcing the importance of consistency and transparency.

2. Listener Question: Budgeting with an HSA on a High Deductible Plan

Question from Marky in Milwaukee:
Employer switched to HDHP with HSA. Now facing unexpected, large out-of-pocket costs (routine doctor visit: quoted $30, billed $500; therapy copay jumped to $170/visit). Struggling to budget before the HSA has much in it—how to adjust financial planning?

2.1. HSAs and HDHPs: How They Work

• Definitions and Terms (24:09)
  • Sean: “A high deductible healthcare plan … for 2026 … deductible is at least $1,700 for individual coverage, $3,400 for family … maximum out of pocket $8,500/$17,000.”
  • HSA is only available with HDHP—triple tax-advantaged and portable.
• Tax Advantages (Kate, 24:53)
  • HSA contributions are pre-tax, withdrawals for qualified medical expenses are tax-free, and investment earnings are untaxed.
  • HSA follows you from job to job and rolls over year to year.

2.2. Deciding When to Use HSA Funds vs. Pay Out-of-Pocket

• To Invest or Not to Invest Your HSA (27:59)
  • Kate: If you can pay medical expenses without credit cards/emergency fund, consider investing HSA funds for long-term benefit. For short-term needs, direct spending makes more sense.
  • Initial investment in HSAs often requires a minimum balance, can have administrative fees, and interfaces are sometimes user-unfriendly. Kate herself does not invest HSA funds for those reasons.

2.3. Premiums, Out-of-Pocket Costs & the “Pain” of HDHPs

• Premiums are Lower, but Costs are More Visible (29:57)
  • Important to factor in the money you’re NOT paying in premiums; that can offset high deductibles if accounted for in your budget.
• Who Benefits Most? Minimal or High-Expense Users
  • Healthy, low-expense people rarely hit the deductible, so pay less overall.
  • High users (e.g., frequent appointments/therapy): may hit the deductible mid-year, after which care is mostly covered. Predictability can help with budgeting. (32:00-32:41)
  • The "middle"—people with moderate but unpredictable expenses—can feel squeezed.

2.4. The Difficulty of Predicting Health Costs (35:50–38:14)

• No Real Way to "Shop Around"
  • Estimates from providers are unreliable, and upfront pricing is almost never available for services beyond the most basic.
  • Kate: “There’s really no way to do that, unless you’re doing something really, specifically straightforward… I once tried to get an MRI…could not get an answer from anyone.” (37:23)
  • Elizabeth: “When it comes to healthcare, I’m British…How am I supposed to shop around if you cannot tell me how much my treatment costs?” (38:14)

2.5. Budgeting & Coping Strategies

• Immediate Steps for Marky (and Anyone New to an HDHP)

  • Request payment plans from healthcare providers—these are often interest-free, letting you spread large bills over time. (39:10)
  • Negotiate costs or seek financial assistance when possible.
  • Try not to forego essential or preventive care, even if cutting somewhere else is necessary.
  • Review paystubs and prior year healthcare expenses to estimate future needs.
  • Consider a “sinking fund” (specific savings) for predictable health expenses, apart from the HSA if possible.
    • Sean: “Personally I prefer to keep my money in my HSA and use that as my longer term retirement healthcare fund, and for expenses that I'm paying out of pocket…I'm just kind of biting those and paying it out of my general checking account.” (42:14)
  • If employer HSA contributions are not enough and medical spending is high, reconsider plan choices during next open enrollment.

• Cutting Health Costs and Re-Evaluating Coverage

  • Look for lower-cost providers or employer-subsidized care options, especially for therapy and recurring needs.
  • Reduce frequency of services (e.g., therapy every 2–3 weeks instead of weekly).
  • If the employer only offers HDHPs and it’s unaffordable, it may be worth considering a new employer (though this is a last resort).

• Balancing HSA Growth vs. Healthcare Expenses

  • Elizabeth: “I would do a combined approach. Look for ways to lower my expenses, stash premium savings in a high-yield account, and if my employer isn’t contributing, I’d reconsider this plan next year.” (43:38)
  • Kate: “We try our best to pay expenses out of pocket and keep the money in the HSA, but recently we had to take out a big chunk...It's a decision we make as we go, and so far it’s worked out—but I do get an employer match. That’s helpful.” (44:37)
  • There is no single correct answer—personal circumstances and cash flow rule.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “You can't buy your children's core memories.” – Erin Elisa (05:00)
• “It puts the decision in their hands…they're asking to spend your money, but they don’t want to spend theirs.” – Kate Ashford (10:39)
• “I'm choosing not to do this so that I can do that.” – Elizabeth Ayola (16:19)
• “It is really psychologically painful to be spending the money out of pocket…when you're on a non high deductible plan, it doesn't feel like you're spending anything because it’s already out of your paycheck.” – Sean Pyles (34:28)
• “There’s really no way to do that [price shop for care]... I once tried to get an MRI…could not, could not get an answer from anyone.” – Kate Ashford (37:23)
• “Try not to forego essential or preventative care…your mental health is really important.” – Sean Pyles (40:38)
• “There's no real one right way to do it. Just figure your way through it and you can adjust over time.” – Sean Pyles (45:00)

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Timestamps for Major Segments

| Segment | Timestamps | |-------------------------------------------------------|------------| | Mother’s Day Money Lessons | 03:49–18:19| | Core Memories > Expensive Gifts (Erin Elisa) | 04:50–06:05| | Contentment & Enough (Amanda Barroso) | 07:47–08:58| | Allowance & Spending Control (Kate Ashford) | 10:39–11:21| | Saving for Kids’ Futures (Pamela de La Fuente) | 12:48–13:34| | Teaching by Example (Elizabeth Ayola) | 16:19–18:19| | Listener Question Intro: HSA/HDHP Struggles | 22:39–23:58| | Definitions of HDHP & HSA | 24:07–25:33| | Triple Tax Advantages of HSAs | 24:53–25:57| | Invest HSA or Not? | 27:59–29:15| | Cost-Benefit for Minimal, High & Medium Healthcare Use| 29:57–33:23| | The Problem With Predicting & Shopping for Health Costs| 35:50–38:36| | Budgeting Strategies & Coping With Unexpected Costs | 39:10–45:09| | Panelists: “If this were your money…” | 43:38–45:09|

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Tone & Style

Supportive, candid, and practical—with warmth and humor. The hosts and guest bring both personal experience and expert clarity, helping listeners feel seen in their financial struggles, while offering real, actionable guidance.

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For Listeners: Actionable Takeaways

• Focus on building “core memories” for your kids through time and attention, not purchases.
• Use allowances and account access to teach kids real money management, even if it’s uncomfortable.
• For new HDHP/HSA users, reframe premium savings as funds for inevitable out-of-pocket spending.
• Track medical spending to help estimate and budget for next year.
• Don’t hesitate to ask for payment plans or financial help from providers in tough years.
• Ideally, let your HSA funds grow for retirement health needs, but it’s okay to use them now if necessary—balance as your situation requires.
• Sharing real money and healthcare stories helps us all feel less alone in managing imperfect systems.

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Next Episode Teaser: How to use travel points to fund a summer vacation—plus where Sean’s headed this year!

Contact the Hosts:
Submit your questions via the Nerd hotline: [phone] or email [e-mail].

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Transcript

[Sean Pyles]

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[Elizabeth Ayola]

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[Sean Pyles]

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[Elizabeth Ayola]

BILT cards are issued by column NA member FDIC pursuant to license for MasterCard International Incorporated. Today's episode is sponsored by Spectrum Business.

[Sean Pyles]

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[Elizabeth Ayola]

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[Sean Pyles]

Our colleague Kerri is a Spectrum customer shout out to our social media team and she told us she chose Spectrum because people online kept recommending it as a reliable and affordable option for Internet and phone service. She told us that she was actually a little hesitant to switch at first because she'd been using a different service for a while, but after a year with Spectrum she's had a really good experience. Her phone gets strong, reliable service and it automatically connects To Spectrum WI FI everywhere.

[Elizabeth Ayola]

Join the millions who rely on Spectrum Business. Visit spectrum.combusiness to learn more. One more time that spectrum.com business restrictions apply.

[Sean Pyles]

Services not available in all areas.

[Elizabeth Ayola]

Sean, what are the most surprising things that you realize that you could purchase with a health savings account?

[Sean Pyles]

I recently learned that you can purchase a mattress with HSA funds.

[Elizabeth Ayola]

Where did you see that? Is that for everyone?

[Sean Pyles]

I mean, there are probably some terms and conditions that apply, of course, but if you have a medical need and you need a mattress, HSA funds might cover it. Also, I feel like my go to is sunscreen. That's a great one, too.

[Elizabeth Ayola]

Yes, I learned about sunscreen from you, and I'm still reeling over that. Love, love, love it. But hey, I don't need a mattress right now, but I' need one soon. HSAs are full of surprises, and they have many benefits. Yes, they have triple tax benefits. Yes, they can help you save and invest for future healthcare expenses. But how do you actually budget for them in real time? If you stick around, we're going to be answering a listener's question about how to budget when you switch over to an HSA. Welcome to NerdWallet's Smart Money podcast, where you send us your money questions and we answer them with the help of our genius nerds. I'm Elizabeth Ayola.

[Sean Pyles]

And I'm Sean Pyles. Today we're talking about managing funding an HSA with current medical expenses and how you balance both. But first, before we get into that, we're talking about Mother's Day, which was yesterday, and it's one of my favorite holidays because I love my mom. She's very sweet. We have a good relationship, and she taught me so much about money. But as we also know, being a mom teaches moms a lot about money, too. So today we're going to hear some great lessons about what motherhood can teach all of us about money.

[Elizabeth Ayola]

We are. I have met Shawn's mom, guys, and she is so sweet and fabulous and relatable, and I could go on and on. Shout out to Sean's mom if she's

[Sean Pyles]

listening, shout out to Jean, my little mom. She's like 5:1 and loves the Grateful Dead.

[Elizabeth Ayola]

I love it. Love it. Okay, but on that note, today we have a kind of special opening segment because we have curated some videos and. And some money tips from moms who are here at NerdWallet and also from Sean's mom. So we'll be getting a little cameo from her.

[Sean Pyles]

Okay, well, let's get into the first Lesson here.

[Jean (Sean's Mom) / Erin Elisa]

Hi, I'm Erin. Elisa. I'm a senior data studies writer here at NerdWallet. And my motherhood money lesson is actually something I learned in childhood that I now have to remind myself as a parent. You can't buy your children's core memories. Raising kids is expensive. I'm not gonna say it's not. I roll my eyes every time someone says that. It's just as expensive you want it to be. No, it's expensive. But it's often made more expensive by our desire to give our children experiences we think will shape them as they grow up. But really, no matter how much we spend, we don't get to pick what they'll remember and how they'll remember us. I went to Disney World as a kid. There's photo evidence attesting to that it happened, but I don't remember a minute of it. What I do remember from my childhood is a lot less flashy. It's eating big bowls of fruit salad on the porch swing with my mom and snuggling with her while listening to the Christmas song Silver Bells. It's my dad teaching me a card game on a sick day and reading me Fox and Socks over and over again because it made me laugh when he got tongue tied. Go on the trips you want. You know, these big trips can be great. I've been to Disney with my kids. It's fun. But know that the memories your kids cherish may be those that didn't cost a thing.

[Sean Pyles]

What a sweet lesson. I'm going to tear up thinking about little Erin at Disney World, having a great time with her parents. And also not remembering any of and really caring most about the things that cost no money at all. Just the card games, the time spent together, just having a nice meal, hanging out. You don't have to spend a million dollars on an expensive trip because your kid might not remember it at all, but what they will remember is the time and the love that you spend with them.

[Elizabeth Ayola]

Absolutely. And I love what she said about, you know, having a sick day and sitting on the sofa and listening to the same song over and over. And it really reminds me about Ayo because he loves when we have a movie night and we literally just sit on the sofa. He makes me put my phone away, and we just cuddle and watch tv, and those are the things that he remembers the most. And like you said, they don't cost much money.

[Sean Pyles]

Yeah. A friend of mine always says that time is love, time together is love. And I think Aaron's story Tells us that. Exactly.

[Jean (Sean's Mom) / Erin Elisa]

Yeah.

[Elizabeth Ayola]

Can you think of a core memory that you have with your mom that is not money related that you always kind of look back and smile at?

[Sean Pyles]

This is kind of a weird one, but we grew up in the suburbs. I grew up in the suburbs, and we had to drive a lot to appointments. And I remember, like, reading books in the car a lot with my mom. And we weren't even maybe, but we were listening to music that we both liked. And I was just like, had my nose in a Harry Potter book or whatever. And it was just a quiet, peaceful moment of us kind of doing an everyday thing that felt really sweet and nice and secure. And that's what comes to mind right now for some reason.

[Elizabeth Ayola]

Yeah. Parallel play can be free. It sounds like that's what you guys were doing.

[Sean Pyles]

Yeah, my mom was driving, just to be totally clear. So hopefully not playing too much.

[Elizabeth Ayola]

Yes, yes, yes.

[Sean Pyles]

Okay, well, let's get into the next lesson. And this comes from NerdWallet writer Amanda Barroso.

[Amanda Barroso]

One of the biggest lessons I've learned as a mom is that raising kids is basically a daily exercise in contentment for them and for me. Our budget is not unlimited, unfortunately. And it's easy to feel pressure to keep up with influencers and neighbors, whatever pushing fancy toys name, bring clothes over the top holiday gifts. So it's overwhelming. Right. And I've had to push back on that. So I shop consignment for my kids. I limit toy purchases. I pack snacks instead of spending a fortune every weekend at the concession stand. And guess what? They're just as happy. Maybe a little grumpy when I say no, but just as happy. And more importantly, I'm trying to model something that I want them to learn early, which is there will always be people who have more than you and less than you. And peace doesn't come from chasing more stuff. So I'd rather put our money toward what actually lasts. Family trips, activities they love, saving for their future. I think becoming a mom made me think much more long term. So 529 plans and helping with a first car, maybe even a wedding someday if they want to get married. But at the end of the day, I want my kids to remember a childhood full of experiences and to know that what we have is enough.

[Elizabeth Ayola]

Amanda highlights something so important here, which are how expensive external pressures when it comes to parenting can be, especially when it bleeds into your finances. You want to give your kids all of the best things, but does it always fit into your budget? And most importantly, does it really matter to them.

[Sean Pyles]

I also love her emphasis on the idea of enough. That's something that you and I talk about every so often on the show. Elizabeth is what is enough money? Enough stuff where you don't need to be chasing for the better and shinier thing. You can just appreciate what you have. And I really like her point too, about getting creative around how and where you're spending your money. You don't need to be buying brand new clothes because kids grow out of them so quickly. Man has done a great job of really saving a lot of money.

[Elizabeth Ayola]

There's a. Yeah. And if you guys haven't listened, she's come on the pod quite a few times to talk about her money saving strategies and it's always so interesting and stuff we could all learn from. I can also relate with her in terms of mirroring contentment. As we know, kids mostly watch what you do more than listen to what you say. And I had a season. I have these seasons where I start impulse buying and I have a package coming in every single day. I remember Ayo, he loves to pick up my packages and open them without me telling him to. And he's just like, what is it? Another package? What did you get? Another shirt? Another book? Another. And those are always little wake up calls for me in contentment. Do I really need these things? Because he kind of. His undertone is usually challenging, like, mom, do you really need these things? And it reminds me the importance of showing him a good example of how not to overspend, really, and to stop buying things you don't need.

[Sean Pyles]

I need that reminder too.

[Elizabeth Ayola]

Don't we all sometimes? All right, let's move on to the next one.

[Kate Ashford]

I am Kate Ashford. I am a writer on our core personal finance team at NerdWallet. And I had a hard time with this because I've had kids for a while now. I have a 15 and a 17 year old. So I did want to say that the moment we were able to give them control of their own money was the moment I felt like they grasped more about it, which seems obvious, but, you know, when you go anywhere with kids, they're always like, can I have this thing? And the second I was able to be like, sure, you have an allowance, you can buy that thing. And they were like, oh, I don't want to spend my own money on this. And it really, it puts the decision in their hands. And it is so helpful to help them see that, like, they're asking to spend your money, but they don't want to spend Theirs. So the allowance thing is super useful.

[Sean Pyles]

Okay, Elizabeth, I would love to know how you are approaching allowances and budgeting with I.O.

[Elizabeth Ayola]

oh, my goodness. I am still in the in between phase. Meaning I said I was going to start giving him an allowance when he was eight. He has now turned eight. I still haven't started giving him an allowance, but I completely relate with Kate because there was a time where he had built up some money in his piggy bank for money he earned, money family members gave him, and it came time to spend it, and this same exact thing happened. We'd be in the store and he'd be like, mommy, can I have this? And I'm like, well, how much money do you have in your hand? He didn't want to spend his money, and he would rather leave the store with his cash most times than spend it or try to convince me that I needed to use my money because I'm his mom and I have more money than him. So kids hate spending the money, but they don't realize how much work goes into earning it.

[Sean Pyles]

Yeah, well, one day they will learn. But at least you're doing the work now of teaching him how to budget and how to understand the really the value of your money and how skillfully you need to deploy it to get what you want and still retain what you have, too.

[Elizabeth Ayola]

Exactly. And also the emotions that come along with spending money. Right. It sucks sometimes seeing that money leave your hands, and it really just kind of jerks you back and can realign you with your values of, why am I spending this money? Do I need to spend it? And is it really going to bring me joy?

[Sean Pyles]

That's true. Sometimes it really does, though.

[Elizabeth Ayola]

Yeah.

[Sean Pyles]

So that's why impulse shopping is so tempting.

[Elizabeth Ayola]

I know.

[Sean Pyles]

Okay, well, let's get now to Another contribution from NerdWallet editor Pamela de La Fuente.

[Elizabeth Ayola]

I don't know that I have one money lesson to share, but overall, I've just learned that kids are expensive. Like, really, really expensive. Since becoming a mom almost 12 years ago, I've learned about investing in their future, which is something I didn't learn about growing up. I had a savings account, but I never had a college investment account. I didn't know what a 529 was until I was a grown adult. So I'm proud to say both of my kids have savings accounts, but my son also has a 529 account, and my daughter, she has autism. She has an able account, both of which I learned about and set up thanks to Nerdwallet. And both are super easy to set up. We just automate our contributions to both set and forget.

[Sean Pyles]

Set and forget. That is one of the best ways to manage your finances and keep growth and keep momentum over time without a lot of effort. I love that, Pamela.

[Elizabeth Ayola]

Exactly. And I love that she shouted out. Well, not shouted out because it's just her experience, but talked about able accounts, which is an account that can be helpful for special needs kids. And it's just such a great way to save money for them, because depending on the kind of special need that your child has, they may not be independent when they get older. And having these financial resources in place for them can ensure that they can live a happy and healthy life, too. Whether you're here or not.

[Sean Pyles]

That's right. Okay, well, next up, we have maybe my favorite. I'm biased here, though. This is the lesson that my mom shared. She and I had a cute little conversation about it at the end, too. Mom, welcome to Smart Money.

[Jean (Sean's Mom) / Erin Elisa]

Hi.

[Elizabeth Ayola]

Good to see you.

[Sean Pyles]

It's so nice having you on. You've been listening to this podcast since the very beginning. I'm so glad we can finally have you here.

[Kate Ashford]

Yeah.

[Elizabeth Ayola]

Thank you.

[Sean Pyles]

So can you please tell me what raising my sisters and me taught you about money?

[Jean (Sean's Mom) / Erin Elisa]

One of the things I learned when you guys were in high school was

[Elizabeth Ayola]

that the public school system did not teach you anything about financial planning or budgeting.

[Sean Pyles]

So that's why we went to the

[Jean (Sean's Mom) / Erin Elisa]

bank and we set up joint bank accounts.

[Elizabeth Ayola]

And instead of just giving you cash

[Jean (Sean's Mom) / Erin Elisa]

for allowance money or checks for events

[Elizabeth Ayola]

at school, I put that money into

[Jean (Sean's Mom) / Erin Elisa]

a checking account for you. And you had to budget it yourself.

[Sean Pyles]

Yeah. And in fact, I still have this account open and is how I pay you my part of the cell phone bill?

[Jean (Sean's Mom) / Erin Elisa]

That's right.

[Elizabeth Ayola]

It's been great.

[Sean Pyles]

Yes. Well, thank you for teaching me all that, Mom.

[Elizabeth Ayola]

You're welcome. Sean, what was that experience like for you? Your mom just gave you money and said, hey, you can do whatever you want with it. What did that feel like? And how old were you?

[Sean Pyles]

I was, I think, a freshman in high school. And it was so helpful, especially because my parents were divorced, so I was driving between their houses and I had to get gas from my car. And I was working a little bit kind of odd jobs here and there in high school, and just being able to have a place to see my money was just really eye opening because like you were saying, it's different when you're spending your own money. Not that I had a lot of it, but this was the first time I really felt like I was in control of my life and that I had some kind of grasp on what it meant to manage your finances. And I wasn't the best at it all the time, but, hey, I learned some good lessons the hard way. And I'm still happy to have this account with my mom because it does help me pay my part of the cell phone bill with her. And it's kind of a nostalgic thing, too, just having this connection. And I'm just so grateful that my mom set that up way back when.

[Elizabeth Ayola]

Yeah, it sounds like it holds sentimental value, and I feel like I would probably keep that account, too, because why not?

[Sean Pyles]

Yeah. Okay. Well, here we are at the time of the show where we hear your money lesson. Elizabeth, what has being a mom taught you about managing money?

[Elizabeth Ayola]

This was a hard one for me to think about because I've learned so many lessons. But I think the one that I am most proud to teach and teach the most often is that what you teach your kids about money starts with how you live your life, as I kind of alluded to earlier. So I think I'm very mindful of how I communicate about money, how I spend money. I'm a single mom. My son's always in my face, so he sees me when I'm buying things. And I tend to make everything a conversation about money. And it's not always a lesson or a lecture, but just, you know, a conversation. So, for example, we're in the grocery store. He always wants to scan the groceries. Now I let him scan them. He also gets to see how much each item costs. And he's like, what, a tomato costs $5? Yes, a tomato cost $5. It's expensive, right? So he's getting more of an idea of how much things cost before he picks them up and puts them down. I'm also very mindful of the language I use, so I try to avoid saying things like I can't afford it or I don't have it. And I make it about choice. I'm choosing not to do this so that I can do that. And it's so rewarding hearing him start to repeat that language and say, well, maybe, you know, oh, maybe we're going to the movies today. So that means we're not gonna go to McDonald's later because we have to choose. So he's learning things like wants and needs. Sometimes he'll ask me about, you know, rent, and I'm explaining to him the difference between rent and a mortgage so he can Learn about debt and borrowing and all these things so it doesn't have to be awkward. It doesn't have to be this top secret thing. Money is a part of your daily life, so include your child in those conversations.

[Sean Pyles]

Right. It seems like you really learned the importance of teaching by example.

[Elizabeth Ayola]

Exactly. And also not just showing the good stuff, but where maybe I have weaker areas too. Like I said, my impulse spending. And I'm just buying stuff and buying stuff.

[Sean Pyles]

I love that he's calling you out on that, too.

[Elizabeth Ayola]

Oh, he calls me out and he will drag me out the store, too. When we're in the mall, he's like, you don't need this. You already have 10 pairs of shoes. Let's go home. He literally does that all the time. I'm like, you know, you're right. Let's go home.

[Sean Pyles]

He's doing it right.

[Elizabeth Ayola]

He is. All right. I have shared my money lessons that I've learned as a mom. And now, listeners and viewers, it's time for you to share your money lessons. Please send us an [e-mail] with your money lessons or leave a comment on Spotify as well just to let us know what your lessons are.

[Sean Pyles]

Okay, well, in a moment, we're getting to this episode's money question, which is all about balancing HSA budgeting priorities.

[Elizabeth Ayola]

But before then, if you have a money question for Sean and I, maybe you are thinking about how to teach your kids about money. Maybe you're going through a really difficult life transition that's impacting your finances. Perhaps you want to try some advanced investing strategy that you found on TikTok. Whatever your money question is, please send them to us on the Nerd hotline at 901-730-6373. You can call us or text us or leave a voicemail on that number. And that's 901-730-N-E R D. You can also pop us an [e-mail] yeah, or

[Sean Pyles]

maybe you don't have any kids at all and you're wondering how to spend all of your discretionary income. That's my challenge.

[Kate Ashford]

I wish.

[Elizabeth Ayola]

I wish.

[Sean Pyles]

Okay, well, yeah. Listeners, we love your money questions. The show runs on them. Please send them our way now. We're gonna get into this episode's money question in a second. Stay with us. Today's episode is sponsored by Quints. Lately, I've been more intentional about what I wear day to day, leaning into pieces that feel effortless, comfortable, and still put together. It makes getting dressed Simpler Quince has been my go to. The fabrics feel elevated, the fits are flattering, and everything just works without overthinking it.

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[Sean Pyles]

Let me tell you, Elizabeth, I've been really loving my European linen sheets that I got recently. I feel like they get softer with each wash and I'm sleeping so well at night.

[Elizabeth Ayola]

I appreciate a good pair of sheets I tried on my bathing suits that I got from Quince. I got the same one in two different colors and they feel so soft. The fabric feels high quality and I'm excited to wear them as soon as the pool opens up.

[Sean Pyles]

Yeah, I mean, summer's right around the corner, right?

[Elizabeth Ayola]

It is.

[Sean Pyles]

Well, if you want to refresh your wardrobe with everyday luxury that you'll actually use, head to quint.com smartmoney for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns.

[Elizabeth Ayola]

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[Sean Pyles]

Quint.com smartmoney the following is a paid sponsorship, not an endorsement by NerdWallet's editorial team. Today's episode is sponsored by Bilt.

[Elizabeth Ayola]

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[Sean Pyles]

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[Elizabeth Ayola]

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[Sean Pyles]

We're back and answering your money questions to help you make smarter financial decisions. Our question today comes from Marky in Milwaukee who sent us a text this year, due to changes in healthcare policies, my employer switched us to a high deductible healthcare plan with an hsa. At first I was excited about having access to an hsa, but I'm starting to feel overwhelmed by the actual costs. For example, I recently went to my primary care provider for a routine illness injury visit. I was initially quoted $30 but later found out my insurance only covered $85 of the visitors and I now owe about $500 out of pocket. I also attend weekly therapy and my cost per session has increased from a 30 copay to about $170 per visit. Because I just opened my HSA, I haven't had time to build up savings in it and my medical expenses are coming in faster than I can fund it. It's gotten to a point where I feel like I can't afford to go to the doctor. My question is how should I adjust my budget and financial planning to handle these higher, less predictable healthcare costs under a high deductible plan?

[Kate Ashford]

Oh my gosh.

[Elizabeth Ayola]

I so empathize with you Marki. I use the HSA and HDHP too, and that is definitely a tricky one. But to help us answer Markey's question on this episode of the podcast, we are joined by personal finance nerd Kate Ashford. Welcome back to Smart Money Kate.

[Kate Ashford]

Hi guys.

[Sean Pyles]

Hey Kate. As ever we're having you come on to talk about a thorny, complicated, technical, medical related adjacent issue. So great to have you.

[Kate Ashford]

Yeah, happy to help if I can.

[Sean Pyles]

Let's start by explaining a couple of terms, HSAs and HDHPs. So starting with the latter, a high deductible healthcare plan is a type of health insurance plan that you probably guessed has a high deductible for 2026. That means that your deductible is at least $1,700 for individual coverage and $3,400 for family coverage. And the maximum that you'll pay out of pocket is $8,500 or $17,000 respectively. And an HSA or a health savings account is a type of savings and investment account that you have access to only when you are in a high deductible health care plan. HSAs have some amazing tax advantages. So, Kate, can you give us any more info about HSAs and anything else you want to add about HDHPs?

[Kate Ashford]

Yeah, absolutely. So you'll hear a lot of things about HSAs being triple tax advantaged. And that's because when you put the money into your HSA it comes out pre tax or if you put money in after tax, it's deductible. All the money is in the HSA can be taken out tax free as long as you're putting it toward qualified medical expenses. And essentially most medical expenses are qualified. HSAs usually have the option to invest the money. So as long as you are investing the money, if you earn anything on that money, that investing earnings is tax free as well. So as an account goes, it's really like sterling. It's, it's got a lot of advantages and it follows you from job to job. It rolls over from year to year. So it really is a great account all the way around.

[Sean Pyles]

Yeah, it's always impressive how much you can use your HSA for. You can even buy things like sunscreen with your HSA funds.

[Elizabeth Ayola]

What?

[Jean (Sean's Mom) / Erin Elisa]

Yeah.

[Elizabeth Ayola]

Why didn't I know that? I need. My tube is almost ran out. So I was buying some sunscreen with my.

[Kate Ashford]

I always like to tell people you can buy period supplies. It's that too.

[Elizabeth Ayola]

Yep, I just bought. Okay, tmi, but I just bought some period supplies yesterday and they are expensive.

[Kate Ashford]

They are expensive.

[Sean Pyles]

Would be great to live in a world where that was free because everyone needs that stuff at some point.

[Elizabeth Ayola]

That's right.

[Sean Pyles]

Okay. Well, another amazing benefit of HSAs is that you can reimburse healthcare expenses that you incurred while you were on your hygiene deductible plan using HSA funds years down the road. So say Markie incurs some expenses right now, doesn't want to use the HSA funds to pay for them. If they keep all of their receipts, they can get their money back at a much later date once they have more saved up. And that can be a really helpful way to cloth some money back and get some extra cash in retirement.

[Kate Ashford]

It actually sort of functions like a whole different kind of retirement plan and you're going to have healthcare expenses in retirement, so there's no fear that you're not going to be able to get this money back. I'd also like to add that while the numbers for deductibles and out of pocket maximums that you just went through are they're high, they're scary sounding. But high deductible plans usually have lower premiums than your traditional HMO and PPO plans. And a fair number of employers also will put money into your hsa, which also kind of helps with the costs. So. And furthermore, a lot of high deductible plans don't have deductibles as high as they can go legally. So it's not necessarily as scary as it initially sounds.

[Sean Pyles]

Yeah. One thing I'm curious about is how much Markey is putting into their HSA and what, if any, match they're getting from their employer because that makes it so much easier for me to contribute and save in my hsa.

[Elizabeth Ayola]

Yes, the match is key, so it would be nice to know if Mark, he's getting one. A big decision anyone who has an HSA has to make is whether they're going to use the funds in the account for ongoing medical expenses or they have another option which is to leave it for years and years and hopefully use it for healthcare expenses in retirement and hopefully invest that money so that it can grow. The latter option can be really appealing to some people because you can generally invest the funds that you have in a health savings account and the tax advantages we outlined earlier are there as well. But sometimes you just need to cover a medical bill now, like in Marki's case, and the funds in an HSA might be their only option. So, Kate, how do you balance this decision?

[Kate Ashford]

So this is really just going to come down to your financial situation. Right. So if you can pay your medical expenses easily without putting them on a credit card or cleaning out your emergency fund, then you may want to consider investing within your HSA because it does have growth potential. But it depends on your time horizon. If you are like, I can pay this out of pocket right now, but I'm going to need the money in my HSA within 12 months. The juice is probably not worth the squeeze on that. You probably should just take the money from your HSA and pay the bill. Investing probably isn't going to net you much of a gain for a short term need. If you can let that money sit for a couple of years, three to five years or more, or, you know, until retirement ideally. But of course, not everyone can do that. Investing might make more sense. But I would like to note, just to muddy the waters, check out the investment arrangement for your HSA as well. Those accounts do offer investment options, but. But a lot of them require that you hit a minimum balance like $1,000 or $2,000 before you can invest. And some of them come with administrative fees, which can kind of eat away at your earnings. It may not be the thing that you want to do right away. I've also find the interfaces are not super friendly. I've had a little trouble with mine in that way, so I've actually decided not to invest mine. I think it's really great for those first two tax advantages and the third tax advantage kind of depends on your comfort with investing and the interface you're working with with.

[Sean Pyles]

Yeah, folks should also know that they might be able to open an HSA through any old bank outside of the institution that they are kind of presented with through their employer. As long as you're in a high deductible healthcare plan, you are able to access an hsa and you're not limited to the one that you have through your employer. So you might want to compare your investment options and fees from what your employer's offering you and what you might be able to get at another bank. Okay. Now, when it comes to high deductible plans, they're often best for those who have very minimal healthcare expenses or those who have a lot of healthcare expenses. And those in the middle. It seems kind of like Markey is there. And I'm actually kind of in this place too right now. People in the middle can really feel the pinch. It's kind of the worst of both worlds here. Kate, can you expand on that?

[Kate Ashford]

So you kind of have to do the math on this, and it's a little tricky, but we're going to do it. So one thing to keep in mind overall is that premiums for a high deductible plan tend to be lower. And people tend to discount that because they does. They don't see that money coming out of their paychecks. But you really do have to think about it, because if you're paying $200 less a month, that's $2,400 less a year, which really helps that math work out a little better. Plus, your employer might be putting some money into the hsa, so you might start out paying less premiums, getting money from your employer. And if you're using minimal health care, you're probably not going to spend very much to begin with.

[Sean Pyles]

That's a really helpful point. And I think people who are just switching over to an HDHP with an hsa, they might want to look at their paystubs from the year prior when they were on a different kind of plan, see just how much was coming out of their paycheck to pay for premiums on a regular basis. And consider contributing that to your HSA because it's basically netting out for you there.

[Kate Ashford]

Again, if you've got sort of minimal healthcare expenses. One thing to know about HDHPs is that your annual physical and vaccinations are usually covered by the plan. So if you're not spending a lot on healthcare anyway, you're probably not gonna spend any more than you're already saving on premiums and maybe an employer contribution. So that math kind of works out.

[Elizabeth Ayola]

Yeah, my son and I, well, my son obviously he's my plus one and he's my plus one on my healthcare plan too. We don't spend much on the doctor every year, thankfully, so we usually go for our checkup. So I actually have not hit my deductible so far and I've had HSA and HDHP for about three years now. And like you said, Kate, I also get an employer contribution. But yeah, I guess the point easier for me versus Markey because I don't have to go to the doctor often, so I have time to kind of build up that savings. All right, so people who don't use their health care a lot aren't going to be spending much regardless, like myself, and they should consider themselves fortunate like myself. But it is a different story for people who end up spending a lot on healthcare, right, because they have to pay a high deductible, but it can actually end up costing them less overall than if they went with a non high deductible deductible plan.

[Kate Ashford]

So it does seem counterintuitive, but for people with a lot of healthcare expenses, you're probably going to find that you're spending a lot out of pocket either way, but your expenses are less kind of out of the gate. With a high deductible plan, you're paying less in premiums, you might have an employer contribution, so you might be spending less overall. And in fact, that's been true for me. We are high healthcare users, we are high health care users every year. I don't know, we seem to be high maintenance. So but this actually makes things really predictable for us because we know we're going to hit a deductible every year. So we make sure we have enough to cover that. And after that everything is kind of covered. We usually hit it about mid year and from July on it's Smooth sailing. There's no more spending on healthcare for us.

[Sean Pyles]

That is a lot of spending on healthcare considering that you're, you know, you're a family of how many people?

[Kate Ashford]

We are a family of four. But you know, it just takes a few things. Allergy shots are surprisingly expensive, depending on when you're ordering that stuff. I had a surgery one year. I tend to injure myself. I get a lot of physical therapy. So it all kind of adds up over time.

[Sean Pyles]

I want to go deeper into people in that less desirable middle area that we mentioned before where you're spending out of pocket on your healthcare and it's beginning to strain your budget. But you haven't yet hit your deductible or you might not for the year, but you're still kind of chipping away at that deductible, hoping that maybe at some point it'll become easier for you. So how should folks square this circle?

[Kate Ashford]

This is a tougher equation. So it's a cost benefit analysis. You're going to need to think about how often you see the doctor. How much are you typically spending each year for care, how much are you saving on premiums, again by going with a high deductible plan? And does your employer give you anything for your hsa? And importantly, do you have enough money to cover those upfront costs? Because high deductible plans may be cheaper, but those costs are very front loaded. So I like to think about this as kind of like, like a math problem when I explain this to people because people don't have a good sense of these plans. Let's say that you save $2,000 by going at the high deductible plan and your employer puts $1,000 a year into your HSA. So you're essentially already just out of the gate, $3,000 ahead on healthcare costs and you haven't seen a doctor yet. So you have to kind of think about do you think you're going to spend more than $3,000 on healthcare this year? Just sort of estimating and considering that of course this is, is all guesswork because anything can happen at any time, but based on previous experience, you know, do you think you can come in under that number, in which case it's still cheaper for you?

[Sean Pyles]

Yeah, I think what people are experiencing is that it's actually really psychologically painful to be spending the money out of pocket versus when you're not seeing the money. When you're on a non high deductible plan, it doesn't feel like you're Spending anything oftentimes because it's just already out of your paycheck before you even see the money hit your account. So I think think you're right that people need to sort of reframe their thinking around premiums and how much they're actually saving because they are still likely to come out ahead with a high deductible plan.

[Elizabeth Ayola]

And then, Kate, I have a question as well. I love that Mark, he said that they were excited to start, you know, a health savings account, but what about the pre planning before opening that health savings account and kind of going, do I have enough to fund my medical expenses before I build up the amount, you know, that I need monthly?

[Kate Ashford]

This sort of goes into the same sort of thinking around emergency funds. Right. We have to make sure we have enough cash to cover that thing that's coming up. So this can be a great plan for people, but mostly it's a great plan if they have the money to cover those upfront costs. I mean, I've had a hydrogen plan for years. It is always the best plan for us. It is always the cheapest. But those first several bills of the year are always, always like, what are we doing?

[Sean Pyles]

Why do I owe them?

[Kate Ashford]

And it feels like it just keeps coming. And I have to keep in mind, like, it's fine, it's fine, it's fine. It's cheaper overall, but it is, mentally, it's hard.

[Sean Pyles]

Yeah. And you have the money set aside for this. But beyond it being difficult in the beginning of the year, your first year alone on a high deductible plan can be especially difficult because you don't have that money saved up in your hsa and you may not know what your healthcare expenses are going to be because healthcare expenses can vary greatly from one year to the next. So you're still getting a feel for this new kind of insurance coverage. And I would really recommend that Markey look back and document their doctor's visits for maybe the past 12 months and think about how much they're going to be paying throughout the year. To take some of the guesswork out

[Kate Ashford]

of the equation, it's smart to put together as much information as you have because healthcare is a giant guess. Right. And no one plans to have an emergency or a big health revelation. So you just, you have to do the best with what you have.

[Elizabeth Ayola]

Have.

[Sean Pyles]

Yeah. And knock on some wood to hope that you stay healthy there.

[Kate Ashford]

Exactly.

[Sean Pyles]

I also really empathize with Marki's situation near going to the doctor thinking that this is going to cost a certain amount, only to find out that it's going to cost them a lot more.

[Elizabeth Ayola]

Don't get me started.

[Sean Pyles]

Yeah, that can really throw your budget into a tailspin. And I just had a similar situation where I went to a couple of doctor's appointments and they couldn't tell me how much it was going to cost me. I went to a physical therapist and a sports acupuncturist, kind of specialized people, but I needed to see them for my legs and, you know, medical bills. And $500 later, I found out just how much those were going to cost me. So what I'm wondering, Kate, is whether there is a reliable and maybe even easy way to know how much a medical appointment is actually going to cost you.

[Kate Ashford]

Sean, I wish I had a good answer on this, but the answer is no.

[Sean Pyles]

Yeah, I had a feeling that was going to be the case.

[Kate Ashford]

These plans were originally kind of introduced with the idea that we would be able to shop for our own health care. Guess what? No, there's really no way to do that unless you're doing something really specifically straightforward like a blood panel from, you know, Quest Labs or whatever. And you know that this blood panel costs this amount of money. I once tried to get an MRI and I tried to find out how much I was going to pay for the mri. I wrote a piece about it because I was like, surely this will. I'll be able to find this out. Could not, could not get an answer from anyone. I called seven or eight different places. No one could tell me how much the MRI would cost. Several of them were like, it'll just be this much after your insurance covers it. I'm like, no, no, see, I covered that first part. So, yeah, people don't. They don't fully understand this kind of plan. No.

[Elizabeth Ayola]

And I just want to say I choose when I'm American versus British, and when it comes to healthcare, I'm British because how ridiculous. The first time that I came Back to the Dr. After moving back from the UK, I was really, really vexed with a poor front desk person who couldn't tell me how much my treatment was going to cost. How am I supposed to shop around if you cannot tell me how much my treatment costs?

[Sean Pyles]

So do you go back to the UK for healthcare ever?

[Elizabeth Ayola]

Well, it's complicated. I used to, but I can't anymore because I'm now an American. So right now I'm American. But, you know. All right, let's get onto the budgeting part of Marki's question. Now, in an ideal world, they would be able to put some money into their hsa, hopefully get a match from their employer to help build up that fund, and then they could leave it to grow over time as well as cover regular visits out of pocket. But that does not seem feasible for Marki's budget right now, which is why they are writing us. How would you handle this situation and what advice do you have for Markie?

[Kate Ashford]

Kate yeah, this is a tough one because Marki's already into the plan year and they're getting hit with bills. And I'm here to say that feels awful and particularly if you don't feel like you have the money to cover them. So, I mean, typically my advice for people considering an HDHP is make sure you have enough money to cover that cash book. But given that we're now here, Markie's kind of behind the eight balls. So Markie would sort of proceed like someone who is having trouble paying medical bills. That would sort of fast forward them into that kind of situation. They would maybe talk to the medical providers, billing people, see if they can set up a payment plan, see if it's possible to negotiate a lower rate. I've never really been successful at this, but I've tried and possibly it could work. Some places have financial assistance available. The payment plan is probably going to be your most successful approach. Generally, there's no interest in that kind of thing, so you can just spread those payments out over time and then maybe it feels a little bit more like your typical medical expenses.

[Sean Pyles]

I want to talk about the idea of saving money by foregoing medical care because it seems like Markey is considering that, which makes me nervous for them because we know that preventative care is often one of the best things that you can do for your body. And also it saves you a lot of money over the long run, too. And, and especially if Markie is paying for therapy, your mental health is really important. So I would urge them to maybe not skip out on taking care of your mind and your body, but maybe try to cut costs elsewhere. How do you think about that balance?

[Kate Ashford]

Kate to the extent that they can find ways to get care for less, possibly. Certainly there are clinics that offer easier types of care for whatever your kinds of issues are. If sometimes employers offer mental health care that is subsidized, so it could be that there are other places to find that care for less. And possibly also, you know, if you explain your situation to your providers, they might agree to go to a lower rate for you for some period of time until you can kind of catch up on that.

[Sean Pyles]

Okay.

[Elizabeth Ayola]

And then what about how to handle expenses going forward, Kate? Because it seems like Markey has more, more medical bills to come and we don't want Markie to go into debt.

[Kate Ashford]

Markie's gonna have to figure out how to either put money away toward this kind of plan next year or think about how to cut expenses elsewhere. Because this is going to be an ongoing expense. If they're gonna have a high deductible plan, if this is not a financial structure that works for them, they might wanna go back to a traditional HMO or ppo.

[Sean Pyles]

Yeah. Although I get the impression that their employer kind of forced them into this high deductible plan. In which case maybe they would wann around for another job, which is easier said than done in this current market.

[Amanda Barroso]

Another job?

[Elizabeth Ayola]

I wasn't expecting that.

[Kate Ashford]

Oh boy, that's tougher advice. I really wish we could just reform

[Sean Pyles]

our health care system.

[Kate Ashford]

Yes, if the individual market was less crazy. Going out to the individual markets not a better option either.

[Elizabeth Ayola]

Sometimes I wonder, do they even care about us? Do they even want us to be healthy? Because why make it so difficult and expensive? Why?

[Sean Pyles]

Great question, great question. We'll have to tackle that on our political podcast. Podcast. But I'm thinking that these healthcare expenses might be a good candidate for a sinking fund. If Marki has a little extra room in their budget, they could put just enough into a specified savings account for their deductible. And people might be thinking like, isn't that just what an HSA is for? And the answer is like kind of yes. But personally I prefer to keep my money in my HSA and use that as my longer term retirement healthcare fund. And for expenses that I'm paying out of pocket, like my bills I mentioned earlier, I'm just kind of biting those and paying it out of my general checking account, which isn't fun to do, but hey, at least I have my legs in working order and that's what the money is for, right?

[Kate Ashford]

Yeah. So to the extent that this can be something they think about going forward and plan for going forward, that's gonna be the better approach. Certainly now they know how much they're paying for things. Once you see that you're paying this much for therapy, you know that when you, you have therapy and you haven't hit your deductible yet, that's what you're going to be charged. You can kind of plan for that. Maybe you have therapy every two or three weeks instead of weekly. There are decisions to be Made. So just something to think about for the long term.

[Sean Pyles]

Okay, well, if this were your money, how would each of you handle balancing paying your current healthcare expenses and saving in an hsa?

[Elizabeth Ayola]

I would do a combined approach. The first thing I would do is look for ways to lower my current healthcare expenses. Like Kate said, shopping around can be a headache when no one can tell you how much your care is going to cost, but I would still do it anyway. I would also look back, as Sean said, at how much I had been spending on premiums and put that money away, possibly into a high yield savings account so that I could get interest on that money for as long as it's in the account and just essentially look for ways to shave my budget so that that money can go into my healthcare expenses. And also hopefully their employer is contributing. But if they weren't, then I might look at not using a high deductible healthcare plan in the following year because maybe my healthcare expenses are just too high.

[Sean Pyles]

Yeah, I think I would do something really similar. I'm going to want to save for retirement healthcare expenses, but also try to reduce my current healthcare if I can. Again, you don't want to avoid treatment because your body needs that, but you can't be breaking your budget every month just going to the doctor. And unfortunately that's what the system does to us oftentimes.

[Kate Ashford]

Boop. Yeah, we, we try our, our best to pay our expenses out of pocket and keep the money in the hsa, but recently we had to take out a big chunk because we were like, wait, we've had all these bills from an out of network provider. We need to cover them. So, you know, it's a decision that we've kind of made as we go and so far it's, it's worked out. But again, I also get an employer match. That's, that's helpful.

[Elizabeth Ayola]

It is very helpful.

[Sean Pyles]

I think what we're underlying here is how personal decision this is and there's no real one right way to do it. Just, just figure your way through it and you can adjust over time.

[Elizabeth Ayola]

Yeah.

[Sean Pyles]

All right, well, Kate, thank you so much for coming on and talking with us again about another thorny topic.

[Kate Ashford]

Thank you for having me. I always enjoy it.

[Sean Pyles]

That's all we have for this episode. Remember, listener, that we are here to answer your money questions. So please send them to us. You can call us or text us on the Nerd hotline at 901-730-6373. That's 901-730-Nerd you can also email us at podcastwallet.com or drop us a comment on Spotify or YouTube and come and

[Elizabeth Ayola]

kick it with us Next time. We are going to be getting in Sean's business and we're going to be discussing how to use travel points to fund a summer vacation. Make sure you listen in case you want to know where Sean is going for the summer. I don't know if he's telling us, but I'm assuming that he is.

[Sean Pyles]

Oh yes, I will tell you.

[Elizabeth Ayola]

All right, follow Smart Money on your favorite podcast app that includes Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and iHeartRadio to automatically download new episodes.

[Sean Pyles]

Here's our brief disclaimer. We are not your financial or investment advisor. This nerdy info is provided for general educational and entertainment purposes and may not apply to your specific circumstances.

[Elizabeth Ayola]

This episode is produced by Tess Figland. Hilary Georgie help with editing. Eve Krogman edits our audio and video. And as always, a big thank you to NerdWallet's editors for their help.

[Sean Pyles]

And with that said, until next time, turn to the nerds.

[Elizabeth Ayola]

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[Sean Pyles]

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[Elizabeth Ayola]

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[Sean Pyles]

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