Net Worth and Chill: How Your Wealth Measures Up and Vivian Tu’s Tips for Financial Success

Summary

NerdWallet's Smart Money Podcast: "Net Worth and Chill: How Your Wealth Measures Up and Vivian Tu’s Tips for Financial Success"

Release Date: December 26, 2024

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Introduction

In the final episode of NerdWallet's month-long special series for 2024, hosts Sean Pyles and Sara Rathner engage with listener Charlene (referred to as Vivian in the transcript) from Texas. The primary focus revolves around understanding net worth, its significance, and strategies for achieving financial success as the new year approaches.

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Understanding Net Worth

Vivian opens the discussion by sharing her impressive saving habits and financial goals. Working as an Environmental, Health, and Safety Manager, she manages to save over half of her biweekly paycheck. Her financial aspirations include attaining financial independence, generating passive income, and ensuring she is on track for retirement.

Vivian:
"I'm currently able to save about over, I think, half of my biweekly paycheck and a lot of my financial goals. I'm thinking a lot about financial independence and ways that I can generate more passive income and also really want to see how I'm doing on track to retirement."
[03:52]

Sean commends her saving rate and delves into how net worth serves as a financial snapshot, illustrating the balance between assets and liabilities.

Sean Pyles:
"Net worth in general is great for just giving you a financial snapshot of where you stand right now because your net worth tells you how your assets compare to your liabilities."
[07:00]

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Comparing Net Worth to Peers

Vivian expresses her curiosity about how her net worth stacks up against her peers, especially after making significant financial decisions like home remodeling and reducing retirement contributions due to personal expenses such as her wedding.

Vivian:
"Am I on the right track? How is my net worth now that I'm getting closer to 30? The age, the number seems to be, like, getting bigger and bigger."
[05:07]

Sean addresses the common misconception of using average net worth figures, highlighting the disparity between average and median net worth.

Sean Pyles:
"Average can be really misleading because the average net worth for folks under 35 is $183,500. But the median, which is just the middle point between the top and the bottom is $39,000."
[09:31]

This emphasizes that while averages can be skewed by extreme cases, the median provides a more realistic benchmark for most individuals.

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Vivian's Financial Journey

Vivian shares her background, shedding light on how her upbringing influenced her financial mindset. Growing up in an immigrant family with frugal Chinese parents instilled in her the importance of saving and prudent spending. Her transition from Wall Street to digital media exposed her to diverse financial practices and the necessity of making money work for her.

Vivian:
"Rich people know this. They know the thing that can work around the clock though, is their money. Their Money can work 24, 7, doesn't need a lunch break, doesn't need anything to, you know, sit down and relax for a second."
[20:15]

She emphasizes the shift from trading time for money to having money generate wealth, a fundamental principle for financial growth and independence.

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Increasing Income

Vivian discusses the importance of proactively increasing one's income to stay financially competitive. Citing a study, she highlights that not seeking meaningful raises or promotions every two years can result in earning up to 50% less over a lifetime.

Vivian:
"If you do not switch jobs and or get a meaningful raise every two years, you will make 50% less over your lifetime."
[26:10]

She advises leveraging external opportunities to secure better pay and benefits, ensuring long-term financial stability.

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Asking for Raises

Addressing the often daunting task of negotiating raises, Vivian provides actionable strategies to empower listeners. She recommends creating a "brag book" – a collection of positive feedback and achievements that can substantiate one's request for a salary increase.

Vivian:
"When you have the receipts, you're gonna feel a lot more confident making those asks."
[28:23]

By documenting accomplishments and quantifying successes, individuals can present a compelling case to their employers, increasing the likelihood of securing raises.

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Side Hustles

Vivian advocates for smart, time-bound side hustles as a means to achieve short-term financial goals without long-term commitments. She emphasizes choosing ventures that have low barriers to entry and do not encroach upon one's main job's responsibilities.

Vivian:
"Side hustles do not have to be permanent. You can do them for six months, 12 months, whatever you want."
[30:10]

This approach allows individuals to generate additional income for specific objectives, such as saving for a car or a home down payment, without overwhelming their schedules.

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Final Thoughts

Concluding the episode, Vivian encourages open conversations about money among friends and peers to dismantle the taboo surrounding financial discussions. She underscores that transparency can lead to better salary negotiations and equitable financial advancements.

Vivian:
"Rich people love talking about their money. And if you talk to your friends about how much you guys are making, what you're demanding in terms of salary at work, the only people that are hurt by this are the corporations."
[32:03]

Sean wraps up by urging listeners to leverage the insights shared to refine their financial strategies moving into the new year.

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Key Takeaways

• Net Worth as a Tool: Understand your net worth as a measure of assets versus liabilities to gauge your financial health.

• Realistic Benchmarks: Use median net worth figures over averages to get a more accurate reflection of where you stand compared to peers.

• Proactive Income Growth: Regularly seek promotions or job changes to ensure steady income growth and prevent stagnation.

• Effective Raise Negotiation: Document your achievements to build a strong case when requesting salary increases.

• Strategic Side Hustles: Engage in temporary side hustles to meet short-term financial goals without long-term commitments.

• Open Financial Dialogues: Foster transparent conversations about money to empower yourself and others in financial negotiations.

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By delving deep into the nuances of net worth and providing practical advice on income enhancement, Vivian Tu's insights equip listeners with the knowledge to navigate their financial journeys confidently. As the new year beckons, these strategies serve as a blueprint for building wealth and achieving financial aspirations.

Transcript

[Cody]

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[Sean Pyles]

NerdWallet's Smart Money podcast. I'm Sean Pyles. It has been, in a word, a year. We had an election. You might have heard about that, but we also had quite a year in the economy. Fair to say it was dominated by concerns over inflation, which affected everything from grocery bills to the housing market and beyond. It felt a bit like we were on a constant Fed watch as the Federal Reserve decided what to do about interest rates in its fight against inflation. Today we bring you the final episode in our month long special series featuring the best of Smart Money 2024, our conversations with you, as well as our coverage of the economy and your personal finances. Today we're looking at how we define wealth and net worth. This year and how you can take all of that into the start of the new year with new goals. Speaking of which, early Happy New year to all of you. Now, on with the show. Welcome to NerdWallets Smart Money Podcast, where you send us your money questions and we answer them with the help of our genius nerds. I'm Sean Pyles.

[Sarah Rathner]

And I'm Sarah Rathner. If you have a money question for the nerds, call or text us on the Nerd hotline at 901-730-6373, that's 901-730-Nerd. Or email us at podcasterdwallet.com follow us.

[Charlene]

Wherever you get your podcast to get.

[Sean Pyles]

New episodes in your feed every Monday. And if you like what you hear, please leave us a review and tell a friend. This episode we're talking with a listener, Charlene, who's 29 and lives in Texas. We're going to talk with Charlene about net worth, what it's good for, what it's not good for, and how much you should compare yours to those of your peers. Charlene, welcome to Smart Money.

[Vivian]

Hi. How's it going?

[Charlene]

It's great.

[Sean Pyles]

I'm so happy to have you on. Before we get into the conversation, I want to just say on behalf of our legal team that we are not financial advisors. We're not going to give you direct financial advice.

[Charlene]

This is just to talk about your.

[Sean Pyles]

Financial circumstances for general educational and entertainment purposes. With that out of the way, Charlene, can you tell us about your financial life right now? Like what you do for work, how much you're able to save, current money goals, all of that fun stuff?

[Vivian]

I am currently working as a environmental, health and safety manager. I'm currently able to save about over, I think, half of my biweekly paycheck and a lot of my financial goals. I'm thinking a lot about financial independence and ways that I can generate more passive income and also really want to see how I'm doing on track to retirement.

[Sean Pyles]

So when you say you're saving about half of your income, first of all, congratulations, that's really impressive.

[Cody]

Thank you.

[Sean Pyles]

You mean that you're putting that into like a savings account? Are you investing that? In what way are you saving it?

[Vivian]

I have some in my 401k that I put aside. I also have some deductions for my employee stock purchase plan with my employer. I put about 15% into that and then I have another 10% or so going into just like high yield savings for like emergency funds.

[Sean Pyles]

That seems like A pretty solid balance.

[Sarah Rathner]

Yeah. I'm impressed. Yeah. So what got you thinking about your net worth and how it compares to your peers, to other people, similar ages to you?

[Vivian]

A lot of the times we often they say, like, comparison is not really great. But I always just wonder, am I on the right track? Because I did do some home remodeling in the past two years that I moved to Texas when I bought my house. And so I did take some of my retirement contributions. I reduced them. I used to do 20% when I was in California, and now I've scaled it back because I had to pay for some wedding expenses as well. So I wondered if those things kind of put me off track with a lot of the talks about the economy, you know, recession and such. It just made me wonder, am I on the right track? How is my net worth now that I'm getting closer to 30? The age, the number seems to be, like, getting bigger and bigger.

[Sean Pyles]

Charlene, I know that you're curious about kind of average net worth by age. So what specifically are you curious about in that regard?

[Vivian]

I'm just curious. I think a lot of times, like, I did a quick Google search and there was a chart. It was like this age bracket, and then this is how much you should have saved in your 401k. But it doesn't really talk about net worth. But maybe people don't even consider that as part of their thinking. Maybe they just think more about the balance in the 401k.

[Sean Pyles]

Well, for a lot of people, their net worth is made of that balance in the 401k. And you mentioned the word should, how much someone should have. And there are a lot of benchmarks around that, which we can get into in a little bit. But I tend to bristle at the word should because everyone's circumstances are so different. And if you look at what a financial advisor might tell you you should be doing, it might not be realistic for your current goals or finances. So that can be discouraging if you're not in that place where you should be able to meet these things that you should be doing. But we'll get to that in a bit. But I do want to talk about net worth at kind of a high level because some folks may not be fully aware of what it really is and how you can use it. Net worth in general is great for just giving you a financial snapshot of where you stand right now because your net worth tells you how your assets compare to your liabilities. It accounts for things like your student loan Balance the equity, equity that you have in your house, a car loan that you might have, a retirement account balance, and so much more. Because really, simply, it's just a measure of how what you owe compares to what you own. If your net worth is positive, you have more assets than liabilities. If it's negative, then it's just the opposite. It's really not uncommon for people who are in their 20s and early 30s to have negative net worths. And that doesn't mean that someone who's in this situation is a financial failure. It just is where they are at that current moment. It's a useful gauge for progress on goals like paying down debt or building up a retirement nest egg. But early on in life, it's again, really not uncommon to have a low or negative net worth.

[Vivian]

Okay, yeah, that makes sense.

[Sarah Rathner]

Yeah. And a net worth number is a moment in time. And what it doesn't mean necessarily is that someone has, quote, unquote, made it compared to their peers. You could have a high net worth because you have an asset like a house that's gone up in value significantly, which has been true for quite a few people recently. But day to day, your cash flow might be pretty tight, so you're not really living large. You just might have a house that is worth a lot of money. Using your net worth as a basis for self esteem, or your worth or how much you're worth in comparison to your friends or family members is just an exercise in futility.

[Vivian]

Definitely.

[Sean Pyles]

I want to go in on comparing net worth averages and we'll talk about some medians as well, because you mentioned that you maybe saw a chart that had benchmarks of how much someone had saved or what their net worth might have been. We actually have a great page on NerdWallet that allows you to compare net worth by age, average net worth by age. And one thing that's talked about in this article is that average can be really misleading because the average net worth for folks under 35 is $183,500. But the median, which is just the middle point between the top and the bottom is $39,000. So really Stark difference. And that's because we have extremes at either end. So median can be a little bit more representative of what's more common for folks than an average in this situation.

[Vivian]

Yeah, I mean, that definitely gives me a greater idea. And you're probably right. Everyone's circumstances are different. And also location too. When I lived in Bay Area, a lot of the employees that I would see and talk to their numbers. Kind of like blew my mind when I first moved to Bay Area. And then later, you know, when I would go home and see friends and family and just kind of hearing their stories, I realized they would not understand the community that the Bay Area people are working in, because those salaries, they could not even fathom.

[Sean Pyles]

Yeah, I mean, I lived in San Francisco for a period of time as well, and people talk about their net worths all the time, in part because they have so much money coming in. And that can really lead you to this comparison of how much you have or don't have, which can leave you feeling kind of bad if you don't have as much. As someone who is like a tech multimillionaire for a lot of people, as long as you are doing the best that you can and working toward your financial goals, that's more important than a number on a balance sheet, which is going to change over time. That's something that I had to work through in my 20s as well. And I was talking with a lot of friends who went to prestigious schools in the Bay Area and they would be worried that, oh, I don't have this career that my colleague had or my classmate had. They would get hung up on that.

[Charlene]

And then what I would always try to tell them is like, look, this.

[Sean Pyles]

Is where you are right now. You will probably have a very different trajectory and even a few years and you don't know where that classmate might end up. So just focus on what you can do for your situation and your circumstances to get you where you want to go.

[Charlene]

And don't get too hung up on.

[Sean Pyles]

What someone else is doing because it doesn't really affect you all that much.

[Vivian]

Right? Yeah, I definitely agree.

[Sean Pyles]

So I want to circle back to net worth and how to use it for you as a gauge for your goals and what you want out of retirement, whether it's early or on a more typical time frame. How do you think you'll be using this metric as you talk with your partner and begin to make more solid plans for your future?

[Vivian]

We'll look at what our goals are in the next 5, 10 years, 15, 20 years, and kind of see, are there any more life changes happening? Maybe some medical expenses come up like you mentioned, that might require us to reassess our financial situation. I think it'll give me a gauge of do I need to change up my strategy of how I contribute to retirement or even pull some money out of any other investment accounts, because I also have my E trade account. So if I decide to Maybe invest in something else that might help me understand where my journey is when I reassess my net worth years down the road.

[Sean Pyles]

I would also recommend looking into some of the fire communities online. There are a handful on Reddit, there's like fat fire, where people are in the fire movement, but they're still enjoying their day to day life, not living off of canned beans, that kind of thing. And these communities can be tremendous resources.

[Charlene]

As you figure out what sort of.

[Sean Pyles]

Retirement you might want to work toward and how you might be able to gauge your net worth in comparison to that. Because the hard part about saving for retirement is that we've never done this before and we really only have one shot to do it. So to the extent that you can learn from other people who are going through this, or maybe further down this journey than you are, the easier I think it'll be for you as well.

[Vivian]

Definitely.

[Sarah Rathner]

Well, today I learned that Sean's biggest fear is having to live off of canned beans.

[Sean Pyles]

I like canned beans. Okay. But they need to be within another kind of recipe.

[Sarah Rathner]

Yeah, you can't, you can't have too much of a good thing.

[Sean Pyles]

When I say canned beans, I imagine myself like over a fire in the middle of the desert, like trying to open up this old can of beans, and that's all I've got to my.

[Sarah Rathner]

Name with like a pocket knife.

[Sean Pyles]

Yeah, exactly. Is there anything else on your end, Charlene, that you wanted to ask us about?

[Vivian]

What does net worth mean? What is included in the definition of net worth? And does the definition of net worth differ from coast to coast or different people?

[Sarah Rathner]

So your net worth is basically your assets, which means the things that you own. So that could be cash, it could be a home, it could be artwork, it could be jewelry, it could be a car. It could also be your investing accounts. And then it's also a listing of what you owe. So your debts, mortgage, student loan, car loan, personal loan, those sorts of things. You subtract the debts from the assets in terms of like the value of the assets minus the value of the debts, and that's your net worth. I don't know if the definition of net worth changes geographically, but what really the variations you see might be what people choose to include in their net worth. Sometimes people include the fair market value of their car, sometimes they don't. Things like that. It just kind of comes down to what you decide to include and maybe what free template you download online to input numbers into. And there are lots of free templates available.

[Vivian]

Yeah, that makes a lot more sense.

[Sarah Rathner]

Yeah. Sean, do you have any, any thoughts on net worth and its various forms?

[Sean Pyles]

That's the gist of it. Again. It's like for someone in your late 20s, really not uncommon to have a net worth that could be zero or negative. But over time, as you pay down debts, you know, you have a house, so you'll be paying down that mortgage, your net worth will begin to go up. And ideally, when you are in retirement, your net worth would be fairly high. So you don't have a lot of debt obligations that you're paying off when you're in retirement.

[Vivian]

That makes sense.

[Sean Pyles]

Well, Charlene, thank you so much for coming on and talking with us.

[Vivian]

Thank you for having me. Really appreciate your answers.

[Sean Pyles]

Yep. Please keep us posted on any changes that you and your husband decide to make around net worth and saving for retirement.

[Vivian]

Will do.

[Sean Pyles]

We are back in a moment with more smart Money. Stay with us. Today's episode is supported by Range Rover Sport. You know, some vehicles are built for performance, some for luxury and some for adventure. But the Range Rover Sport, it's built for all three. It's the Swiss army knife of cars, except way more comfortable and without the tiny scissors. With its powerful design and sporting luxury, it isn't just a vehicle. It's your statement of intent. It's built to deliver smooth, composed handling with adaptive dynamics, which reduces unwanted body movements. So even the twistiest roads feel like a breeze. And for those days when the road is more dirt than asphalt, adaptive road cruise control has your back adjusting seamlessly to changing terrain. On top of all that, the Range Rover Sport's dynamic air suspension gives you maximum agility, control, and support. So if you're ready to elevate your drive and leave the drama for your destination, head to Land RoverUSA.com build your perfect range Rover Sport and get ready to lead every journey in style. @landroverusa.com I'm joined by Vivian, too.

[Charlene]

You may know Vivian from her videos on social media, where she's known as yous are Rich bff. She also hosts the Net Worth and Chill podcast and is the author of the new book, Rich the Winning Money Mindset that will change your life. Vivian, welcome to Smart Money.

[Vivian]

Thank you so much for having me.

[Charlene]

So, Vivian, you cover a lot of ground in your book, like budgeting, investing, good money habits. And in this conversation, I want to focus mostly on your chapter about increasing wealth and income. But before we get into that, I want to hear a little bit about your background. Worked on Wall street for a period of time before Making the jump to buzzfeed, and eventually starting your podcast and social media channels. Can you talk with me about how this background informed your financial education and personal finance philosophy?

[Vivian]

Yeah, I think I very much got that crash course right. I grew up in an immigrant family to two loving but very frugal Chinese parents. And there was this huge emphasis placed on saving and scrimping and using money when it was only necessary, like, truly, truly last. But then for me to get to my very first job, after going to a school like the University of Chicago, where there are so many children of millionaires and billionaires who are my peers, I was kind of being introduced to a world that I had never grown up with or had never seen before. And when I got to Wall street, it became abundantly clear to me that really rich people were not focused so much on avoiding the avocado toast or the daily latte. They were really focused on growing their wealth. And I feel lucky because having that experience is probably what gave me a personal finance education that the vast majority of people don't get. Even if you have a parent or a mentor, someone who is, in theory, like, good with their money, they may not necessarily be getting kind of like the peak behind the curtain of how the actual sausage is made and what people who are making a lot of money are actually doing with it to manage it.

[Charlene]

Well, yeah, you see that people who have a lot of money are playing by a different set of rules in a lot of ways.

[Vivian]

A thousand percent, 1,000%.

[Charlene]

And so you were able to bring that to people that you knew who had personal finance questions, and you could distill all of this sort of technical jargon, personal finance know how, and say, hey, here's how you should actually be paying your taxes or budgeting or thinking about paying rent, that sort of thing.

[Vivian]

So when I left Wall street and went to digital media strategy sales, all of my new coworkers were like, all right, Wall street, like, come on, you came from this job like, you're fancy. Explain to me, should I be buying the company stock options or which health insurance plan did you pick? How does a 401k work? And what are you investing in in yours? And I got the same questions over and over again to the point where I was like, oh, this is so annoying. I'm answering this for the eighth time. Let me just make a video about it and I'll put it on the Internet. Ha ha. My seven friends will watch this. Turns out a couple more people than my seven friends at work needed it. And Saw it, but it really was just, I don't even like the phrase dumbing down, but making it digestible. All of this personal finance jargon and this state kept community around money. For the first time my friends saw someone who looked like them, ate their lunch, you know, at the same table, always needed to get a fro yo break at 2pm in the afternoon. Like I was a normal person who wasn't wearing a suit.

[Charlene]

You're speaking in plain language. Yeah, well, I want to talk about your book. Early in your book you discuss how laziness can be a virtue when it comes to building wealth. Please explain what you mean by this. And can I and all of my listeners become millionaires by sitting on our sofas?

[Vivian]

I think traditionally we've been taught you work harder, you make more money, right? Like we all know, it's like you do more, you get more great. But our bodies and our brains can only feasibly work for, let's call it on average 16 hours a day. Before you're kind of like there's diminishing marginal returns, you're really starting to burn out, you're exhausted, you're physically and mentally doing badly. So your body and your mind is frankly not that good of a money making tool because it can't work around the clock. And rich people know this. They know the thing that can work around the clock though, is their money. Their Money can work 24, 7, doesn't need a lunch break, doesn't need anything to, you know, sit down and relax for a second. Your money can work all the time. And so what I say is investing and making your money work hard for you is the easiest way to be a two income household, even if you're single, because you can sit back on your couch and eat potato chips while your money continues to work for you, even if you're not laboring for money. And the ultimate quickie equation is at the beginning of your career and your adult life, you are working hard for your money. You have a job, you're trading your time, your effort, your energy for money. And if you are mindful of that money coming in and you're able to set some of it aside so that money can work hard for you by investing. Then over time, if your total income and you know, money is a pie chart, the amount you get through labor becomes smaller and smaller and smaller. And the amount you get through investing or through your money working hard is bigger and bigger and bigger. And proportionally you'll get to spend less time working, more time chilling While still having just as much, if not more money coming in the door.

[Charlene]

And this is why we talk so much on smart money and in the personal finance space about automating your finances. Even if you're automating savings into a high yield savings account account or contributions to an investing account is exactly what you're talking about. You are putting the mental load of making sure your finances are doing what.

[Sean Pyles]

You need them to do so you.

[Charlene]

Can achieve your life goals on autopilot.

[Vivian]

Yeah, and I think we already do this so often in our everyday lives that people can often feel like with finances it's very intimidating. But I encourage people to think about it like this. On your Outlook or Google Calendar, you are able to set recurring events. And for me, I would set things like a recurring event every single month to go schedule time to go get my nails done, or I would schedule time every two weeks to make sure I washed my sheets, because that's kind of gross, Vivian. But in the same way that you're scheduling time to wash your sheets or like find a little self care moment, you can truly practice the best form of self care, which is today, you taking care of future, you set up a recurring reminder to do something. And even better, just set up that recurring reminder and then set it up through your brokerage or through a savings account like you mentioned, to have that money automatically pull out of your paycheck. And that way you don't even have to think about it. You just know it's happening.

[Charlene]

Okay, well, I want to turn now to your chapter about increasing your income. And I first want to start with discussing the why behind earning more money. Because it seems really obvious that having a greater income, making more money, makes your life easier for any number of reasons. And beyond the basic goal of just wanting more cash, how should people really get clear about that? Why their motivation before they put in all of this time, emotional effort and labor, which can be really anxiety inducing and time consuming because they do want to increase their cash flow, but they're not sure how to do it. They feel like maybe they aren't deserving of a greater salary. How do you think people can get clear about their motivation?

[Vivian]

I always say this like, people oftentimes, especially people of color, women, people who come from marginalized communities, immigrants, LGBTQ communities. There's this sense that if you don't have like an altruistic reason for wanting more or wanting something, that you're a bad person. And I said on another podcast I was on, I was joking, I was like, I am motivated by nothing but money. And you know, I know that sounds quite crass, but frankly, that money isn't just so that I have $100 bills in a bathtub that I can dive into or sit on a golden throne. That money means I have resources. It means I can take big opportunities, I can swing big and shoot for the fences. It means that I have the freedom to make decisions out of a place of abundance versus a place of scarcity. And a couple silly but also very serious examples I give is like when you have money and you've just gotten your hair blown out and you're coming out of the subway and you realize that it's absolutely torrentially downpour raining, you don't have to be shy about spending that extra money on the umbrella from the street hawker or that extra money to get an Uber to get to your destination so you can stay dry. And that's a silly example, but a serious one is when you have money in the bank, when you have an emergency fund, when you are financially secure, you can take that new scary job that is going to offer you better pay, better equity and better benefits. Maybe you otherwise wouldn't have taken that job because you're like, hey, is there job security? I've been in this current job for almost five years. Maybe I should shut my mouth and be happy with what I have. It's like, no. Having money allows you to take those opportunities. And on the very, very dark end, having money allows you to escape a financially abusive relationship. It allows you to be able to get up in the middle of the night and say, I don't need to be here because I can provide for myself financially. Because there are so many examples of financial abuse where people don't feel like they can leave toxic relationships because they don't have the means to logistically do so. So money can be your why, baby. Let it be your why.

[Charlene]

And I think at its base, what you're describing through all these examples is flexibility and security. Vivian, I've heard you mention on another podcast actually that if you are at a job for two years and you're not getting a raise or a salary increase, that is really what you want or a promotion that you really want, it's time to move on. Can you tell me about why you think that two year mark is important?

[Vivian]

Up or out, baby, you get two years. Because there is actually a study done that if you do not switch jobs and or get a meaningful raise every two years, you will make 50% less over your lifetime. I can't afford to make half as much. I don't think anybody out there can right now. So here's my thing. If you are not getting a 15% raise and potentially a promotion every two years, you need to look externally because that's where you're going to be able to get 15% and you need it.

[Charlene]

I think some people would think, eh, this job's comfortable, I can have the lifestyle that I want around it. I don't need to fight for that increased salary. Do you think it's worth them to reevaluate their perspective or do you think for some people there's not money motivated? They're fine in that position if they aren't making the most that they could.

[Vivian]

If they're not money motivated. Like what does motivate them? Maybe it's a flexible working arrangement. Maybe it's the ability to go on better vacations, maybe it's the ability to move to a different state. Like whatever you're motivated by, make sure you're getting that out of life. But frankly, at this point in our socioeconomic climate, I don't understand how someone could not be money motivated. Because eggs cost $12. The cost of living crisis is truly astronomical. I mean, it is cheaper to rent than buy in 70% of all US markets. So when you say things like they're not money motivated, they may not have to be right now, but they're going to have to be eventually. That's going to be a problem when everyone else has been jumping jobs and leveling up and getting all these other skills and opportunities and da da da da and their salaries have increased. Your friends who don't get these increases will then not even know what they should be asking for down the line when they have to make that decision out of necessity. I would say make a decision when you are in a comfortable spot versus when you are up against the wire because you want to make sure again you're making choices out of a place of abundance.

[Charlene]

Well, now I want to turn to the part of increasing your income where people are actually asking for the raise. Because for many people, as I'm sure you know, the thought of asking for a raise, no less having that conversation is terrifying. So you think people should just get over that? Basically is what you say in your book. How do you think people can reframe their mindset and really understand the worth that they bring to the table?

[Vivian]

I actually do walk people through it step by step with the actual texts. So like the email that you send your boss, this is exactly what you put on his calendar, this is exactly what you put on. You know, her outlook, this is what you do so that you are ready to have that conversation and make that request. I think oftentimes we can feel a little bit inferior when making that ask. We get very nervous, but we have to remember that money's not coming out of our boss's pocket. That money is coming out of a business banking account that is set up for labor costs. You are not the first person to ask for a raise and you are not the first person to get one. And you sure won't be the last person to do either of those things either. The easiest way is to help overcome some of that is to have a brag book. Essentially you make a folder in your email where you forward any of the positive accolades. So a client says, wow, we couldn't have done it without Sean. Or an internal team is like, Sean is so amazing. Sean increased XYZ revenue by 35%. Forward all of those emails to that folder. And then when it comes time for a mid year review or an end of year review, or when you're going to go make those kind of scary asks, you literally have a laundry list of all of the times you knocked it out of the park. And you have quantifiable measures of your success to then tie back as to why you deserve that money. And as I like to say, when you have the receipts, you're gonna feel a lot more confident making those asks.

[Charlene]

I wanna turn now to side hustles. Historically, side hustles have been something where I've rolled my eyes a bit at them because I spend so much time with my job, which I do love. But I think about it a lot when I'm not in my nine to five. And I think, why would I want to spend time when I'm not at nerdwallet grinding making more money? But you advocate for a more sensible way of having a side hustle. Talk us through that.

[Vivian]

I don't think everybody should be like, hashtag hustle core, like, we should always be working. That's not it at all. But I do think side hustles are a really great way if you need a short term cash infusion. So what I mean by that is, hey, you're saving for a car or your wedding or a down payment on a home. All of those things are a great opportunity to leverage a side hustle to make more money in the short term. Side hustles do not have to be permanent. You can do them for six months 12 months, whatever you want. And I find that if you do a side hustle that has low costs, low barriers to entry, that is very different from what you do during the day and allows you to take advantage of your free time and does not stress you out with the other work that you already have to do, it can be an actual pretty enjoyable way to make that extra cash. I'm not saying we should all enjoy working ever, but I do believe that having a side hustle that doesn't cost you money, a side hustle that you can do with other parts of your brain, flex different muscles, it's a great way to really just get some extra cash in the short term.

[Charlene]

I like the idea of putting a time box on it and a specific goal because it's not like you have to have this side hustle forever. One thing that I always like to talk with people about when it comes to side hustles is not turning a creative passion into a job, because that can suck all of the fun out of it. I have a friend who's a photographer and she has sold some of her pieces and she's kind of found that it sometimes it feels like work for her, whereas it used to feel like a really fun hobby and a passion. So that's one word of caution for anyone pursuing a side hustle. Like my partner loves to crochet as well, and he's thought, oh, I could sell this stuff. But then it doesn't become the relaxing way to wind down at the end of the day. It becomes another task that you have to get done because you feel like you owe it to yourself and your side hustle to make this money. Well, Vivian, do you have any other thoughts around increasing your income that you want to leave listeners with?

[Vivian]

Yeah, I think it's critically important for you to talk to your friends about how much you guys make because we've been told for so long that talking about money is rude and tacky and taboo. But I'm telling you right now, rich people love talking about their money. And if you talk to your friends about how much you guys are making what you're demanding in terms of salary at work, the only people that are hurt by this are the corporations. You guys are going to be able to ask for more money, demand your worth, and get better benefits, all just for having had a 15 minute conversation. So please don't be shy. Talk to your friends about money. It is not illegal. If anybody tells you that, they're wrong, like, you can definitely talk about your money.

[Charlene]

Great. Well, Vivian, thank you so much for taking the time to chat with me.

[Vivian]

Of course.

Thank you so much for having me.

[Charlene]

That's all we have for this episode.

[Sean Pyles]

Do you have a money question question of your own? Turn to the Nerds and call or text us your questions at 901-730-6373. That's 901-730-N E R D. You can also email [e-mail] and remember, you can follow the show on your favorite podcast app, including Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and iHeartRadio to automatically download new episodes. This episode was produced by Tess Figland. It was mixed by Megan Maurer, and a big thank you to nergwallis@editorners for all their help.

[Charlene]

Here's our brief disclaimer.

[Sean Pyles]

We are not financial or investment advisors. This nerdy info is provided for general educational and entertainment purposes and may not apply to your specific circumstances. And with that said, until next time, turn to the Nerds.

[G]

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