Untangle Your Relationship with Money for Better Mental, Emotional, and Financial Well-Being

Summary

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NerdWallet’s Smart Money Podcast

Episode Title: Untangle Your Relationship with Money for Better Mental, Emotional, and Financial Well-Being
Release Date: December 22, 2025
Hosts: Sean Pyles, CFP® & Elizabeth Ayola
Guests: Kim Palmer (NerdWallet Writer), Asia Evans (Financial Therapist & Author), Bree (Listener)

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Overview:

This episode delves into the emotional and psychological side of personal finance. The hosts discuss strategies for coping with money-related shame, the importance of open communication about finances, and how to untangle deep-rooted financial stress. It features an interview with Asia Evans, a financial therapist and author of “Feel Good Finance,” and segues into real-life advice for a listener coping with job loss, focusing on practical steps for financial and emotional stability in times of uncertainty.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Money & Emotional Well-Being: Breaking the Taboo

[04:01–05:38]

• Asia Evans highlights that people often feel badly about money largely due to a widespread social taboo: “It feels like such a secret that isn’t supposed to be spoken about... Don’t ask about other people’s salary... how people afford the things that they afford.” (Asia Evans, 04:09)
• Cultural backgrounds play a role—with particular mention of how the Black community may particularly be taught to keep money conversations within the immediate family.

Actionable Insight:

• Start normalizing conversations about money with trusted people. Practice helps lessen discomfort: “You may not have [comfort] right away. So practicing is going to be really important with people that you trust.” (Asia Evans, 05:38)

2. Working Through Financial Stress & Trauma

[07:25–10:37]

• Evans describes her book as a self-guided therapy session. She encourages vulnerability in confronting past financial struggles and giving oneself permission to acknowledge the pain.
• The process starts with “labeling the emotion” without feeling disloyal to parents or upbringing: “I need you to check your respect for your parents at the door because it’s hindering your ability to just label your feelings.” (Asia Evans, 09:14)
• Recognize and sit with emotions, then develop strategies for coping and behavior change.

3. Why We Spend: Dopamine & Coping Mechanisms

[10:37–12:19]

• Evans explains “retail therapy”: The excitement (dopamine hit) comes from the anticipation and the act of shopping, often used to cope with other feelings or to reinforce an aspect of identity.

• Advises developing a “dopamine menu” of non-spending activities for mood-boosting.

  “Trying to buy your way out of the feeling... and again, the dopamine does work—it just doesn’t last long.” (Asia Evans, 11:47)

4. Financial To-Dos for Mental Well-Being

[12:19–13:16]

• Learn financial basics and take actionable steps—most notably, Evans urges everyone:

  “Move your money into a high-yield savings... please do not leave your savings in just a regular savings account.” (Asia Evans, 12:45)

• Don’t fear your feelings about money—they’re a guide, not an obstacle.

5. You’re Not Alone in Financial Struggles

[13:21–13:39]

• Closing encouragement from Evans:

  “Even if you feel the most shameful, you feel like you’ll never get out of it—you are not alone. It is possible. It’s gonna be hard... and please talk about your money with people that you feel close to.” (Asia Evans, 13:21)

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Listener Money Question: Navigating Job Loss

[16:02–38:18]
Listener Bree from Chicago shares her recent job loss, concerns about health insurance, budgeting, and emotional stress.

A. Response to Job Loss & Emergency Planning

[16:07–18:10]

• Bree has a 4–6 month emergency fund due to prior financial discipline and was already preparing for an international move.

• Main stresses: expensive COBRA insurance ($971/month versus $2600/month total expenses), uncertainty of job search timeline.

  “That’s the benefit of having an emergency fund... now you’re able to use it to help you right now.” (Sean Pyles, 17:06)

B. Emotional Impact and Processing

[18:29–20:20]

• Bree felt blindsided by the layoff and is working through the emotional aftermath—including confusion, anger, and hope.

  “It’s important to sit with that and process all of your emotions and realize that you’re going through the various stages of grief.” (Sean Pyles, 19:36)

C. Job Search, Remote Work, and Financial Options

[20:20–22:51]

• Bree is prioritizing finding remote work to continue her personal goals, but is aware she may need to compromise.

• She’s open to various last-resort options (personal loan, tapping retirement), but wants guidance on priorities.

  “Getting some kind of income stream should be the priority... it can take almost that long to get hired.” (Sean Pyles, 22:51)

D. Unemployment Benefits, Part-time Work, and Freelancing

[22:51–24:40]

• Navigating the impact of part-time or freelance work on unemployment benefits.
• Hesitant about freelance instability; would prefer local, in-person steady work if needed.

E. Support Networks & Social Boundaries

[25:33–26:25]

• Bree set a $20/week socializing budget and communicated this boundary to friends.

• Acknowledges the power of a supportive network during difficult times.

  “It takes a lot of courage to tell people, this is what my budget is, and I don’t want to go over it. So good job to you.” (Elizabeth Ayola, 26:14)

F. Health Insurance Choices: COBRA vs. Marketplace

[26:26–28:53]

• Bree’s challenge: She’s in a holding pattern awaiting Medicaid determination through Marketplace but feels COBRA (at $971) is prohibitively expensive.
• Advised to follow up proactively with the state and carefully analyze the trade-offs in coverage with Marketplace vs. COBRA.

G. Budgeting, Spending Triggers & Structure

[28:53–31:37]

• Bree proactively made a list of free/cheap activities to replace travel and eating out.

• Uses reward-based goals in her job search to provide structure and motivation: early rewards are free, later ones include small purchases.

  “You are building infrastructure for yourself to have a full life.” (Sean Pyles, 31:05)

H. Emergency Fund Replenishment Planning

[31:41–33:03]

• Bree asks the best way to rebuild savings once re-employed.

  • NerdWallet’s advice: Use the 50/30/20 budgeting framework (50% needs, 30% wants, 20% savings/debt).
  • Direct deposit into high-yield savings simplifies rebuilding.

  “It just can be a reminder to be kind to yourself and remember that’s what the emergency savings is there for— to use in the case of an emergency.” (Elizabeth Ayola, 32:53)

I. Retirement: Avoiding Early Withdrawals & Account Management

[33:04–37:42]

• Bree learned from past mistakes and sees cashing out retirement as a last resort.

• Advice: Roll over old 401(k)s into a single IRA if that offers better options/lower fees, and avoid scattering retirement funds across multiple accounts.

  • Check for possible involuntary cash outs by the old employer (often when balances < $5,000).

  “As you get closer to retirement, it’s going to be the easiest way to manage what you have saved up is to have it in one, two, maybe three places.” (Sean Pyles, 37:20)

J. Feeling Supported and Planning Ahead

[37:54–38:18]

• Bree feels reassured after advice and is ready to focus on her job search with renewed energy and less financial anxiety.

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Notable Quotes & Standout Moments

• “Practice maybe not makes perfect, but makes you a little bit more confident.”
  – Asia Evans, on negotiating money topics (07:13)
• “Trying to buy your way out of the feeling... the dopamine does work, it just doesn’t last long.”
  – Asia Evans, on retail therapy (11:50)
• “You do not need to be afraid of your feelings that come up with money. You will be OK. But you can’t be OK unless you understand what those feelings are.”
  – Asia Evans, (12:58)
• “It takes a lot of courage to tell people, this is what my budget is, and I don’t want to go over it. So good job to you.”
  – Elizabeth Ayola to Bree (26:14)
• “Just gradually, with time, build [emergency savings] back up, and before you know it, you’ll be back in the spot you want to be.”
  – Elizabeth Ayola (32:58)
• “I still am not at the place where I need to be at my age to have the retirement that I want. The gap isn’t so large that I’m freaking out... It feels very doable.”
  – Bree (34:19)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 04:01 – Evans on why money feels taboo
• 05:38 – How to practice money conversations and build financial confidence
• 07:25 – Working through financial stress & trauma
• 10:37 – Why spending triggers dopamine; alternative coping
• 12:39 – Evans’ essential “feel good finance” action steps
• 13:21 – Encouragement: You’re not alone in money shame
• 16:07 – Listener Bree’s situation: Coping after job loss
• 18:29 – Emotional aftermath and optimism
• 20:20 – Job search tactics: Remote/permanent work tradeoffs
• 25:33 – Socializing and setting budget boundaries with friends
• 26:43 – Navigating COBRA vs. Marketplace insurance post-job-loss
• 28:53 – Budgeting, triggers, and building structure during unemployment
• 31:41 – Rebuilding emergency funds with the 50/30/20 rule
• 34:34 – Retirement mistakes and rollover best practices

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Takeaways & Action Steps

• Talk openly about money—practicing with those you trust makes it easier.
• Give yourself permission to label and sit with difficult financial emotions.
• Build a non-spending dopamine menu to manage emotional spending.
• Use high-yield savings to maximize your emergency funds.
• After a job loss, prioritize finding some income and monitor job search duration; use unemployment benefits and avoid early retirement withdrawals if possible.
• Communicate spending boundaries clearly with your social network for support.
• Use structured rewards to maintain motivation during life transitions.
• When re-employed, replenish savings methodically; leverage direct deposit and budgeting systems.

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Episode Tone:
Supportive, practical, empathetic, and encouraging—offering both actionable money strategies and psychological insight.

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For listener questions:
Call/text 901-730-6373 or email [e-mail]

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Transcript

[Shawn Pyles]

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[Sean Pyles]

So do you have your Christmas shopping done, Elizabeth?

[Shawn Pyles]

Of course I do, because I don't.

[Elizabeth Ayola]

Think I buy more than 10 presents every year. So all done.

[Sean Pyles]

Love that frugal queen over here.

[Shawn Pyles]

Absolutely.

[Sean Pyles]

Meanwhile, I got all of my holiday gifts while I was on my honeymoon in Japan, so I'm feeling pretty prepared right now.

[Shawn Pyles]

Well, since we're all done shopping, what.

[Elizabeth Ayola]

Are you doing with the rest of the week? Sean, we're a couple of days to Christmas.

[Sean Pyles]

I love to read an entire book in the week between Christmas and New Year's and in the lead up to Christmas. So I'm gonna have my nose stuck in a book all week and I.

[Shawn Pyles]

Like to watch Christmas movies.

[Elizabeth Ayola]

So I have my list and I have my hot chocolate and I have all of my snacks and I'm gonna be snuggled up under my covers.

[Sean Pyles]

Well, I'm assuming our listeners holiday tradition is listening to us every week on the podcast and we have a special archive episode for them to while we are off doing other things.

[Elizabeth Ayola]

That's right.

[Shawn Pyles]

And we still want you guys to make time to send us your money.

[Elizabeth Ayola]

Questions, whatever you happen to be doing the couple of days leading up to Christmas. And we want you to send them to 901-730-6373. That's 901-730 N E R D and Sean, where can they email us?

[Sean Pyles]

You can email [e-mail] let's get to the show. Welcome to NerdWallet's Smart Money podcast where you send us your money questions and we answer them with the help of our genius nerds. I'm Shawn Pyles.

[Elizabeth Ayola]

And I'm Elizabeth Ayola.

[Shawn Pyles]

This episode we talk with a listener who was just laid off about the smart money moves they should make at.

[Elizabeth Ayola]

This pivotal moment in their life.

[Sean Pyles]

But first, we have the next installment of our nerdy book club series, which is led by regular smart money guest and friend of the pod, NerdWallet writer, Kim Palmer. Kim, who are you talking with this episode?

[Kim Palmer]

I'll be talking with Asia Evans, a financial therapist and author of Feel Good Finance. Untangle your relationship with money for better mental, emotional and financial well being. She has a lot of really helpful ideas about how we can improve the way we talk and how we handle money in our lives.

[Sean Pyles]

Sounds great. Well, we also want to remind listeners that you can enter for a chance to win our book [e-mail] bookclub for our next book club pick. And with that, Kim, take it away.

[Kim Palmer]

Great. Thank you. Aja. Welcome to the show.

[Asia Evans]

Thank you so much for having me, Kim. I'm so excited to chat.

[Kim Palmer]

Me too. Well, let's start with the backdrop for your book. Why do so many of us feel badly about money?

[Asia Evans]

I think in general, people just have no idea about money, number one. So whether that looks like your financial education, that's one thing. But I think in general, we don't talk about it. It feels like such a secret that isn't supposed to be spoken about. Don't ask about other people's salari. Ask how people afford the things that they afford, how much they even paid for something. So I think this taboo has really caused us to feel uncomfortable just bringing up money in everyday conversation, even though we all have to navigate it in some way, shape or form. And then we get into the harder stuff around. How were you raised? How did the people around you talk about money. How did you feel? What parts of your life made money feel difficult or hard to bring up? And that can be really rooted in shame and guilt and fear and worry. And we don't like to be vulnerable. You know, humans are not really down with being super, super vulnerable, whether you know the person really well or not.

[Kim Palmer]

I'm glad you brought up that taboo piece of it because I thought that was so striking. When you write about the taboo around money and how many of us, and maybe especially the black community in particular, are taught growing up that we need to only talk with our immediate family about money, can you explain more about how we can change that and how we can feel more comfortable talking about money?

[Asia Evans]

I would say practice. One thing that I always bring up to people is how important it is to communicate about your money. So that could be, hey, are you talking to your family about the estate plans, which is another taboo topic. Right. Talking about death is really hard for people, knowing that this is something you're going to navigate. But talking about, what are your plans? What do you want? Where is the money? Is there money? That can be really, really difficult for people because we're talking about the worst case scenario. So starting to have those conversations, not only with your family, but your friends, especially your spouse. If you're thinking about, hey, we want to move in together one day, get married, you need to know about the money, what's going on with their money and my money, and where are we at in general. So all of that's going to be really, really important. And then what I will say on a broader scale is conversation around workplace and what is the market rate, and did I ask for more money? Did I not? And all of those conversations need to start with a level of comfort that you may not have right away. So practicing is going to be really important with people that you trust so that you know you're not feeling really bad if you're like, I have no idea what I'm talking about.

[Kim Palmer]

Absolutely. I think you're right. That idea of practicing is so important. I always remember how my dad made me practice negotiating a salary before I actually had to do it. And just speaking those words out loud in advance, I think helped a lot.

[Asia Evans]

I literally did that same exact thing with my mom for a job that I had a long time ago at this point, but I will never forget saying the number out loud to her. I said it probably 30 times before they called me so that I could say it as comfortably as possible. So practice. Maybe not Makes perfect, but makes you a little bit more confident.

[Kim Palmer]

You describe the book as the reader's personal financial therapy session. I like that approach. So how can someone work through their previous financial stress or patterns that are holding it back? What can you share for someone who isn't going to get to talk to you directly, how they can do that on their own?

[Asia Evans]

I mean, I think Feel Good Finance is a perfect way. And that's exactly why I wrote it the way I did. Like, I wanted you to feel like you were sitting in a session where with me, I wanted you to feel like, oh, that is Asia across, across the room for me, talking to me. So I think having the space and time and realizing that you can go to those vulnerable parts of yourself, that I am going to ask you in the privacy of your own home and hold your hand while you're reading this book to say, hey, let's dive into the deep, dark, scary parts of yourself that you may not go looking at all the time. And what do you need to feel supported in this process? Sometimes you just need permission to, hey, this was really hard for me. This was very scary for me. And I want people to give themselves that permission more frequently.

[Kim Palmer]

So let's just stay on that for a minute. When you are really diving into those difficult things that someone has experienced in their past, how do you help them there? So I know you and I have talked before about financial trauma and sometimes when people grow up in certain scenarios, it can impact how they deal with money today. So what is the best way to really work through that with someone when they have experienced something so hard? How do you help them talk about that?

[Asia Evans]

First, obviously comes the rapport building, right? Again, we are not diving into this session One. This is going to take some time of you sharing your life with me, you telling me who you are and who the main characters are with you along in your story. But after that comes just labeling the emotion. We don't realize how difficult it can be to just say, hey, I was really sad, I was really uncomfortable. And especially when it comes to our childhood and our upbringing, a lot of times my clients feel like they're doing their parents a level of disrespect by saying it was hard. So I asked my clients very frequently, I'm like, I need you to check your respect for your parents at the door because it's hindering your ability to just label your feelings. And that can get really uncomfortable because I know they love their parents. I know that they have goodw towards their parents. But a Lot of times it gets in the way of them being able to say, you know what? I know they did the best that they could, but this was really difficult for me. And that's what I'm asking my clients to do, is to go to that place of realizing, hey, no one is getting in trouble here for you, just saying what your feelings were. And now let's just sit in those feelings and allow them to be. And then we can talk about what you need to do in a coping strategy or a behavior change that's going to allow you to move past and start healing. But always first comes, let's label the feeling and let's sit in it for a little bit and just tell me what comes up. You would be surprised how hard that is for people to just be like, oh, I feel bad saying this was hard. I feel bad saying I was sad or disappointed.

[Kim Palmer]

Can you explain what is going on with why spending means so much to us and how we can spend smartly when it really can feel like so much is on the line?

[Asia Evans]

I think a lot of times spending has become a really difficult coping strategy that we have started using and it does work. So what I'm talking about is the dopamine hit, right? We always hear about, oh, dopamine, the, the happy chemical in our brains. But what we don't always realize is that when we are actively looking for something, whether you're looking for a shirt, a deal, something that feels really, really important to your identity, or how you want to present yourself, that is exciting to our brains, that pump up. And dopamine is rushing at the anticipation. But what happens is that you buy this insert here. Workout set, workout cup of water, a lamp, a pillow, sneaker, shoe. It could be anything. What you are trying to buy is trying to cope with something else. So whether that's, I want to be somebody who's really fit, I need this to be fit. Whether it's, I want to be somebody that people respect. I'm buying this really expensive blazer so that people understand that I am somebody who deserves respect. Trying to buy your way out of the feeling. And again, the dopamine does work. It just doesn't last long. So I want people to start realizing, hey, you can have a dopamine menu that you don't have to spend money on. What do you need to do that's going to help you get out of that mood that you were in there trying to boost your self esteem or represent a part of yourself that you feel like needs to be bigger or take up more space.

[Kim Palmer]

I deeply relate to that. I love how you explain that you pack so so much financial advice into this book from paying off debt. You also talk about savings. If people take away one or two action items from from your book to really move them closer to feeling good about their money, what would you want it to be?

[Asia Evans]

In general, I want people to really learn about finances. Just the basics. Learn that. But I would say something that comes up and I didn't realize it until I started talking about feel good finance more frequently. I want people to move their money into a high yield savings like please do not leave your savings in just a regular savings account. Please shift it to a high yield savings account and start earning money on your money. And then I would just say you do not need to be afraid of your feelings that come up with money. You will be okay. But you can't be okay unless you understand what those feelings are.

[Kim Palmer]

Well, thank you so much Asia. Any closing thoughts to share with our listeners?

[Asia Evans]

I would say you're not alone. Even if you feel the most shameful, you feel like you'll never get out of it. You are not alone. It is possible. It just is gonna be. It's gonna be hard, honestly. And please talk about your money with people that you feel close to.

[Kim Palmer]

Asia Evans thank you so much for joining us on Smart Money.

[Asia Evans]

Thank you for having me, Kim. And thank you for reading. It was such a pleasure to share.

[Kim Palmer]

Your thoughts on money. Shoot us an [e-mail] coming up next.

[Sean Pyles]

Is our Money Question segment with a listener who has some questions about how to manage their finances after losing their job. That's coming up in a moment. Stay with us. Today's episode is sponsored by adt.

[Shawn Pyles]

You're ready for the holidays.

[Sean Pyles]

The turkey's been going since this morning.

[Elizabeth Ayola]

The sides are perfectly seasoned.

[Sean Pyles]

The out of towners have a bed, couch or futon to crash on for the night.

[Shawn Pyles]

All that's left to take care of.

[Elizabeth Ayola]

Is your peace of mind.

[Shawn Pyles]

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[Sean Pyles]

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[Elizabeth Ayola]

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[Sean Pyles]

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[Shawn Pyles]

Visit ADT.com or call 1-800-ADTASAP to find out more. The following is a paid sponsorship, not an endorsement by NerdWallet's editorial team. Today's episode is sponsored by Bilt. It's almost 2026 and you're still paying rent. Without Bilt, we can't have that. BILT is a loyalty program for renters that reward you for what is likely one of your biggest monthly expenses. Yep, that's rent. With bilt, every rent payment earns you points and they can be used towards flights, hotels, Lyft rides, Amazon.com purchases, and so much more. And when you pay rent through bilt, you unlock access to exclusive benefits from a network of more than 45,000 merchants. Just link your credit cards, spend at your favorite local spots, earn BILT points, and get one step closer to that trip you wanted to take. Personally, I would redeem my points for Amazon.com purchases definitely because I always have something I need to buy on there. I would redeem it also for travel and for hotels because I love laying up in a hotel. It's simple. Paying rent is better. With bilt, earn rewards and finally get something back for being a renter. Join the loyalty program for renters at joinbilt.com smartmoney that's J-O-I N B I L T.com smartmoney make sure to use our URL so that they know that we sent you.

[Elizabeth Ayola]

We're back and we are answering your money questions to help you make smarter financial decisions.

[Shawn Pyles]

This episode, we're joined by Bree, a.

[Elizabeth Ayola]

Listener in Chicago who's working through the financial aftermath of losing their job.

[Bree]

Hi Shawn. Hi, Elizabeth. It's so nice to meet you all.

[Sean Pyles]

We're happy to have you here. To start, I would love to hear about your finances generally right now. What feels good? What feels maybe a little bit challenging right now?

[Bree]

It feels good that I have enough funds to get through the next four to six months if I have to. I should probably mention part of the reason that I'm here is because of job loss. My position was terminated 3 1/2 weeks ago now.

[Sean Pyles]

Sorry about that.

[Bree]

Thank you. So I've already stripped down to the bare essentials in terms of my budget and I feel really good about my ability to be disciplined with substantially cutting those back. I live a pretty simple life, so even though I had a well paying job, I don't feel stressed about managing things for several months if I have to.

[Sean Pyles]

Well, that's the benefit of having an emergency fund like you had four to six months worth of savings is great. You should be really proud of yourself for building that up and now you're able to use it to help you right now.

[Bree]

Thank you. It's been eye opening because that's something I've stressed about a lot in the past is do I have enough Emergency savings. Interestingly, part of the reason why I do is because I was in the process of moving to Chile when all of this happens. So I had been building up extra savings for that already, so I have easy access to a good amount of money that I feel good about. On the stressor side, I'd say the two big stressors right now are health insurance coverage and secondly, not really knowing how long this is going to last. So on the health insurance side, I did get the COBRA information from a company, and it's very expensive. But I have seen all my doctors recently because of that planned move. So I don't anticipate that I'm going to need something. But of course, there could always be some sort of surprise. Right.

[Elizabeth Ayola]

So how have you been navigating the emotional side of things? Because I have lost my job before and it's not a great feeling, and sometimes it can take some time to process that. And then also, hopefully you still get to move to Chile. But I can imagine it was very disappointing too, because you had that plan in motion and maybe you have to pause now.

[Bree]

Emotionally, it's been a roller coaster. I was completely blindsided by this decision. I had no idea that it was coming and really, honestly didn't get much of an explanation other than restructuring and cutting back. They've chosen to eliminate my role in that process. So that's really been challenging to not know why and if there are things to learn on my end that I can do that for future opportunities. But they gave the impression that there was nothing on my end. Both the CEO and my supervisor wrote letters of recommendation for me, which I'm so grateful for. So that's reassuring.

[Sean Pyles]

Yeah, I imagine that it'd be hard to not have a sense of closure about that. Is there something else? You know, that question could be a little nagging.

[Bree]

Absolutely. It really is. And so I've kind of gone through the range of emotions, of confusion and anger, to frustration, to everything in between. Optimism about what's to come, excitement, trying to view it as something better will come of this.

[Sean Pyles]

It seems like you're doing the right thing, taking the time and space to grieve, because job loss can be one of the most difficult things to go through. So I think even though it's hard, it's important to sit with that and process all of your emotions and realize that you're going through the various stages of grief which don't happen in the order you might expect. They can kind of come and go in different orders, and that can be confusing. Too. But I like that you're thinking about what good could come of this, because that's a question that a manager asked me to think about in my own context when I was going through a hard time with my job. Even though things might have seemed challenging then, there was a lot of good that came from it. And it seems like you might be at a place where you can pivot your dreams and your career a little bit.

[Shawn Pyles]

So I do have a question for.

[Elizabeth Ayola]

You because you did write to us about potentially having to navigate different kind of careers that is outside of what you typically do. Since you primarily have been a remote worker, how is that search going and are you open to non remote jobs?

[Bree]

Yeah, that's a great question. So I would say, in short, right now I'm prioritizing remote work and I'm really not looking at hybrid or in person because of those personal life goals that I want to continue with. If push comes to shove and things are not panning out, Obviously I've got to be open at some point in the process to consider alternatives. I got enough like easy access to funds and savings and things like that to go, you know, for four to six months or so. I would say I have other options beyond that, like tapping into my retirement. I have credit cards that are untapped. I could take a personal loan. There are options. Some of those are absolute last resort for me and that I really, really don't want to do them. But I just am curious about how I should think about tapping into something like that versus adjusting my job search criteria.

[Sean Pyles]

I tend to be pretty risk averse and going into debt, especially tapping your retirement to cover expenses. Those two are really risky options. Your retirement, if you pull from that, that could mean that you are less able to to fund your retirement later on. And debt can be really expensive and difficult to get out of, especially if you find yourself in a bind with your employment. So I would encourage anyone, Bree yourself included right now, if you are not employed, to try to find some kind of work, even if it's just part time. We know from NerdWallet's 2025 Labor Market Report that the typical time that people are remaining unemployed is around 10 weeks right now. And that has been increasing over. So it seems like the job market is in a bit of a shaky place right now. The company you were working for had a round of layoffs. So even if you're not working your ideal job, maybe it's not in your field or exactly what you want to be doing, getting some kind of income stream should be the priority. And yes, you have four to six months worth of savings and that's fantastic. It can take almost that long to get hired depending on the company that you're interviewing with with. So starting that process now should be the priority.

[Bree]

Yeah, that totally makes sense. The very first thing I did was file for unemployment and thankfully that was approved. I certified for the first time last week. And one of the questions is did you turn down any paid work? And that's in the back of my mind as I think about like a part time role, for example, where it's something to help get me through. But does that compromise or jeopardize the unemployment if I say yes, that I turn down something, or even a full time role for that matter?

[Sean Pyles]

I am not entirely certain how saying whether you turn down a role could impact your unemployment benefits. That's something you would want to ask that office about because the rules can vary by state. But in general, if you are working a job, even if it's just a part time job, that can impact the amount of unemployment benefits that you receive. You could still receive partial benefits if you're working while on unemployment insurance, but you have to report the income that you're getting.

[Elizabeth Ayola]

I also wanted to ask you kind of related to what you're saying. I know that when I have gone through gaps in my resume, whether it be leaving a job or losing my job, I have always leaned on contract work. So how much of an option is that for you? Are you open to that? Are there freelance opportunities that you can explore?

[Bree]

Yeah, I. It's interesting. I've done contract work in the past. The instability of it makes me nervous. And so I think if my back was against the wall and I was choosing, I'd probably take even an in person part time role locally in Chicago and keep searching for something more. Before I did contract work just to have some sort of stability and reliability along the way.

[Sean Pyles]

It's easier to get a job when you already have a job. So if you have a chance to get in the door, that may well be your best chance to find something better.

[Bree]

That's a really great point. I had not thought about that.

[Sean Pyles]

I understand wanting to do your due diligence at this new job and really put in the effort. But you have to follow what's right for you in your career. So even if a month in you get a job offer from somewhere else, that is a much better fit, that's what's right for you. And I wouldn't feel guilty about leaving that new job.

[Bree]

Thank you for saying that. That's really refreshing to hear, to be honest with you, because it's been something that's been weighing pretty heavy on me, and that has definitely created probably some undue stress in the process as I kind of do play out the what.

[Sean Pyles]

If, Maybe a bit of analysis paralysis.

[Bree]

Yes, absolutely. I'm sure my friends are tired of it.

[Sean Pyles]

Yeah. I'm glad you have a support network of friends.

[Bree]

To help network, personally and professionally, is amazing. One of the things that I did early on was I did communicate with my close friends about what was happening, and I kind of put it out there that, like, if we're gonna hang out and do something that costs money, I can give you one day a week, and I can give it $20. And that's what I have.

[Elizabeth Ayola]

So smart.

[Bree]

And they. They're great. So I don't know why this surprised me, but they have been so supportive and aware when they invite me to things or. It's just been really great along the way.

[Asia Evans]

I'm happy for you.

[Elizabeth Ayola]

Going through something like this and having a strong support network can really make it easier. And also it shows how financially savvy you are, because it takes a lot of courage to tell people, this is what my budget is, and I don't want to go over it. So good job to you.

[Bree]

Oh, thank you.

[Elizabeth Ayola]

And that makes me want to pivot a little bit back to something you were talking about earlier, which is important when you're experiencing unemployment, which is COBRA versus Marketplace insurance. So it sounds like you have a really good hold on your budget. So what were your questions around that? Are there any concerns that you have there?

[Bree]

One silver lining in all of this is that my position was eliminated right at the beginning of the month, and so my insurance actually goes through the end of this month, so I'm covered on my existing plan. Right now, The Cobra is $971 a month. And just to kind of put that in context for me personally, my total monthly expenses without insurance is roughly $2,600. So $971 is a big thing for me to swallow. But I also did go into Marketplace and submit the application there, and it's saying that it has sent it to the state for consideration for Medicaid. And I'm just kind of in a holding pattern. I kind of feel like my hands might be tied and I might have to do the cobra. That's kind of where I am right now.

[Sean Pyles]

Have you been able to get quotes for how much Marketplace insurance might cost you and what kind of coverage you would get.

[Bree]

I haven't. I have tried to go in and do that and it won't let me go any further until the state makes a decision about Medicaid.

[Sean Pyles]

Well, considering that you had a high paying job before, I would be a little surprised if you qualified for Medicaid. You might just have to be that squeaky wheel and start calling people because bureaucracy moves slowly. We know that state governments are having a pretty hard time right now. You might be able to get through if you just call, but you need that answer because that's really what's going to help you decide whether COBRA or the Marketplace is best for you in terms of the coverage that you personally need for anything that you might have on an ongoing basis. And then what you can afford too, because 900 something dollars is a huge hit to your budget, especially when you're already going through your savings. But based on your income for the past few years, you might not end up saving a whole lot more if you go with a marketplace plan. Or you could probably find one that's more affordable, but it would have lesser degree of coverage for you. So again, it comes down to what kind of coverage you can get away with. You don't want to be sacrificing your health just to save a few hundred dollars because you can end up paying much more than that down the road if you neglect your health.

[Shawn Pyles]

Health.

[Sean Pyles]

I also want to go back to how you've been able to adjust your finances in general since this job loss. It seems like you are really good at communicating your boundaries with your friends around your budget. I love a $20 limit. Good thing about living in Chicago into these warmer months is that there's so much to do for free. I'm from Chicago originally and I love how the city just comes alive in the summer with all these different street festivals that are free to get into. What other changes have you made to your finances since losing your job?

[Bree]

I had mentioned, you know, I applied for unemployment immediately. I cut back immediately. Aside from my mortgage and my HOA fees, my biggest expense was travel and eating out. And neither of those are necessities. And so it was pretty easy to cut back. But I also knew myself that I get tempted to travel really easily because I love it so much. So one of the first things I did was I actually, to your point, Shawn, made a list of lots of free and reduced cost things to do because I knew when that urge to travel came up I was going to need to have something to replace It So that list sits on my kitchen counter. So every time that urge comes up, I just go to the list. I'm like, oh, let's go to the dog park or oh, let's go check out this festival or those kinds of things. But then I also knew like, it's a big swing to get go from spending to nothing. And so one of the other things that I did was I created goals within my job search and decided ahead of time how I was going to reward myself for hitting each of those goals. And those earlier rewards are free. So like sleep an extra hour or paint your nails or you know, just random stuff. And those goals that are closer to an actual offer are the ones where I have like spending attached to it. So like I have my eye on a new pair of tennis shoes that I really want or a pottery class. Still very like low cost, but that way I have something to look forward to, but I don't feel completely constrained on the spending side of things.

[Elizabeth Ayola]

I love that.

[Sean Pyles]

I love that you seem to be really good at building structure for yourself because that's so important too after a job loss, because there can be a loss of a sense of purpose and your day to day is so open ended. So you are building infrastructure for yourself to have a full life by diverting your interest in travel and to exploring your area around you and rewarding yourself for the progress that you are making. So I hope that you can take some time to appreciate that effort too because it goes really far and it's one of the best things to help you through a period like this.

[Bree]

Thank you.

[Elizabeth Ayola]

All right, Bri, so do you have.

[Shawn Pyles]

Any other questions for us?

[Elizabeth Ayola]

Do you have any thoughts based on our conversation about what you might do next moving forward?

[Bree]

I. This has just been so helpful. I'm wondering when I do land that next job, what's the fastest way to replenish what I used so that if something were to happen again, whether it's job loss or some other financial emergency, I can, as quickly as possible will be prepared for that.

[Elizabeth Ayola]

Well, my thoughts are swinging back into action. You will get a new job soon. Fingers crossed. I don't know what kind of budgeting framework you do, but the 50, 30, 20 budgeting framework can be very helpful. That's what we recommend at Nerdwall. So, you know, 50% goes to needs, 30% goes to wants, and 20% goes to debt and savings. So you can just do a direct deposit, you know, straight from your paycheck into your high yield savings account or wherever it is that you save your money and gradually build that up. So, yeah, that's a way to approach it. If you have, you know, any toxic debt, again, 20% can go towards that. As someone who had to tap a lot into her emergency savings last year when I moved, I felt awful because I felt like I was failing or moving backwards because my emergency savings wasn't where I wanted it to be. It just can be a reminder to be kind to yourself and remember that's what the emergency savings is there for, to use it in the case of an emergency. So, yeah, just gradually with time, build it back up, and before you know it, you'll be back in the spot that you want to be.

[Bree]

Oh, thank you.

[Sean Pyles]

And it can help, too, to have a baseline understanding of where you have to get back to. So look at how much of your emergency savings you have spent from the time that you lost your job to when you get your next job job. That's the number that you want to restore to and think, okay, how much, given my budget, given your new salary, can you put away monthly comfortably? And then from that point, how long is it going to take you to get to that baseline? One last thing I wanted to touch on is your retirement. We haven't talked about what's happening with your retirement savings. So what is your plan there? Because I assume you have at least a little bit of a plan around your retirement savings, maybe from your previous employer's fund and what you might do next with it.

[Bree]

Yeah, so this is actually part of the reason why that is like a no, no for me in terms of options, when I mentioned earlier about cashing out is because early in my career, as you all have mentioned, you make decisions that you learn from. And I did cash out a retirement account when I changed jobs. And now seeing how much I miss out on because of that choice, it's just like a hard no for me moving forward. And I also have been working hard to make up that loss. So I still am not at the place where I need to be at my age to have the retirement that I want. The gap isn't so large that I'm freaking out about it anymore. Like, it feels very doable and like, I can do this. I can accomplish this in the time that I have.

[Sean Pyles]

Okay, well, that's helpful. So I think you're on the right track with having that be a hard no. It can be really tempting to pull from retirement and, you know, maybe in four months, if your savings are getting depleted, that can be something to revisit. But in general, pulling this money out now can make it that much more difficult to get to where you need to be later on, like I mentioned before. So just something to keep in mind, too. And then later on, once you have a new job, that will open you up to exploring different ways to save retirement, whether it's through their 401k, 403, your own Roth IRA. But getting that income stream started back up again will enable so much more when it comes to retirement savings. So that should be the number one priority.

[Elizabeth Ayola]

And also, I want to add, Bri, I don't know if you've thought about what you want to do with that old retirement account from your former employer, but I don't know if you're aware of the options you have, which are typically rolling over the account into a new one, leaving it where it is with your current employer, or reviewing the investment fees on both accounts and seeing basically which one is cheaper and which one is the better option. And then it sounds like you're in a good spot in terms of, you know, your cadence for saving for retirement. But I will quickly say that some employers, if you have a balance maybe of $5,000 or less, will involuntarily cash out your account. That happened to me. So you aren't the only one who made a little, you know, retirement oopsie. So that happened to me once when I left the job and I thought it was free money and I spent it. So that is something you definitely don't want to do. If you are going to cash out or if you do get a check in the mail, you want to make sure that you roll that over into an ira.

[Bree]

Ideally, that makes a lot of sense. All my previous jobs, I did previously roll them all into one because it was getting too much to take care of. And I also have this assumption that that's a good choice because the larger the balance, the more compound interest over time, I think. But what are the pros of keeping it separated and not rolling it over?

[Sean Pyles]

Keeping it there is easy, and if you're lazy, that's a nice thing to have. But it doesn't make a lot of difference one way or another in terms of compounding because the money is growing over time. So I understand wanting to have it all in one place. That can be the much simpler way to do things. And as you get closer to retirement, it's just going to be the easiest way to manage what you have saved up is to have it in one, two, maybe three places. But you don't want it to spread across five different employers over time. But like Elizabeth mentioned before, you want to review all of the investment options at different accounts counts, which is why a lot of people are Fans of Roth IRAs and IRAs in general is because they tend to have more retirement investment options versus a 401k. But that also depends on your employer too. I would say think about the fees, the investment options, how you like to manage your own money. You might be fine leaving the funds that you have in your former employer's retirement account there, although sometimes the employers may charge you higher fees because you are a former employer. So get that information too. But I think for now you're probably fine just doing what you like to do with your retirement funds.

[Bree]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Sean Pyles]

Well, Bri, we've run through so many different aspects of your finances, your life goals, the way you strategize and organize your own life. How are you feeling now and what do you think your next steps will be?

[Bree]

I feel really good. I've had confidence all along on the job search side of things, especially considering I'm finding so many jobs that are in alignment. But definitely the financial side has been just this quiet chirping in the background that is getting louder and louder the more time that passes. And so this has been really good to just touch base and have some reminders for myself.

[Sean Pyles]

Well, it seems like you're doing all the right things. Please keep us updated on how everything goes for you. We can't wait to hear from you.

[Bree]

Thank you so much Sean and Elizabeth. I appreciate it.

[Sean Pyles]

Thank you. And that's all we have for this episode. Remember, listener, that we are here to answer your money questions. So turn to the nerds and call or text us your questions at 901-730-6373. That's 901-730-N E R D. You can also email us at podcastnerdwallet.com come back.

[Elizabeth Ayola]

On Thursday to hear the latest financial news and what it means for your bottom line. Follow Smart Money on your favorite podcast app, including Spotify, Apple Podcasts and iHeartRadio to automatically download new episodes. And if you're listening to us on Spotify, leave us a comment right on the platform to let us know what you thought of this episode.

[Sean Pyles]

Here's our brief disclaimer. We are not your financial or investment advisors. This nerdy info is provided for general educational and entertainment purposes and may not apply to your specific circumstances. This episode was produced by Hilary Georgi, who also helps with editing. Nick Karisimi, Mixar audio and a big thank you to NerdWallet's editors for all their help.

[Elizabeth Ayola]

And with that said, until next time, turn to the nerds.

[Sponsor Voice]

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