I Do NOT: The Dollars Behind Divorce

Summary

Networth and Chill Podcast Summary

Episode: I Do NOT: The Dollars Behind Divorce
Host: Vivian Tu, aka Your Rich BFF
Guest: Jackie Combs, California Family Law Attorney at Blank Rome LLP and Author of Love Richer
Release Date: January 8, 2025

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1. Introduction to the Episode

Vivian Tu opens the episode by highlighting the intersection of love and money, emphasizing that financial decisions play a pivotal role in the success or failure of marriages. She sets the stage for a candid conversation about how finances influence relationships, steering away from traditional, monotonous business podcast formats.

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2. Belief in Love vs. High Divorce Rates

Jackie Combs shares her unwavering belief in love despite the alarming statistics—“50% of all marriages end in divorce in the US” ([00:00]). She draws from her personal experiences, mentioning her grandparents' 72-year marriage and her parents' upcoming 50-year anniversary, reinforcing her faith in lasting relationships.

Jackie Combs [02:58]: "My grandparents just celebrated this week their 72nd wedding anniversary. I believe in love."

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3. Financial Partnership in Marriage

The core issue leading to divorces, according to Combs, is the lack of financial partnership. She emphasizes that couples often aren’t on the same page financially, which undermines the foundation of their marriage.

Jackie Combs [03:20]: "I think ultimately you're not on the same page. You're not financial partners."

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4. Prenuptial Agreements: Insights and Misconceptions

Vivian and Jackie delve into prenuptial agreements, discussing their importance and why they're underutilized. Despite the high divorce rate, prenups are only present in about 10% of marriages as of 2022. Combs explains that prenups aren’t just for the wealthy but are vital for anyone with significant assets or specific financial expectations.

Jackie Combs [05:11]: "Just because you're a prenup, it does... doesn't mean you have to change all the terms of the law."

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5. Digital Prenup Services and Cost Considerations

The conversation shifts to the rise of digital prenup services. While these platforms offer convenience and cost savings, Combs advises consulting with an attorney to ensure the agreement’s validity and comprehensiveness.

Jackie Combs [08:00]: "But before you sign on the dotted line, absolutely consult with an attorney."

Regarding costs, prenups can range from a few thousand to tens of thousands of dollars, depending on complexity and assets involved.

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6. Cohabitation Agreements: Alternatives to Prenups

Combs introduces cohabitation agreements as an alternative for unmarried couples. These agreements outline financial responsibilities and asset division in the event of a breakup, preventing lengthy and costly legal disputes.

Jackie Combs [17:51]: "A cohabitation agreement... defines their rights and responsibilities about their finances."

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7. Celebrity Cases: JLO & Ben Affleck, Tom Sandoval & Ariana Maddox

Analyzing high-profile cases, Combs discusses why even wealthy couples like Jennifer Lopez and Ben Affleck might forgo prenups—often due to belief in enduring love and separate asset management. Similarly, she examines Tom Sandoval and Ariana Maddox’s cohabitation issues, highlighting the importance of agreements to avoid protracted disputes.

Jackie Combs [14:55]: "Their teams may have said that, but they believed in love."

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8. Financial Infidelity and its Impact

Vivian addresses the issue of financial infidelity—hidden debts or undisclosed assets. Combs emphasizes the legal requirement in states like California for full financial disclosure during divorces, protecting against deceitful practices.

Jackie Combs [29:37]: "Financial infidelity is real, common, and really scary."

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9. Reconciliation During Divorce Process

Interestingly, Combs notes that many couples reconsider divorce during the legal process. Reasons include financial constraints, children's well-being, or rekindled love, often facilitated by therapy and improved communication.

Jackie Combs [21:38]: "A lot of them come back. Whether six months or a year later."

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10. Managing Finances in Relationships: Tips and Strategies

Combs offers practical advice for couples to manage finances effectively:

• Communication: Regular, structured financial discussions.
• Financial Planning: Joint budgeting and setting financial goals.
• Transparency: Complete honesty about assets and debts.

Jackie Combs [24:43]: "Set a financial plan together, be partners."

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11. Understanding Property Ownership

A detailed explanation of property ownership types:

• Joint Tenancy with Rights of Survivorship: Each owns 50%; upon one’s death, the other's share inherits entirely.
• Tenants in Common: Each owns a specific percentage, which can be bequeathed individually.

Jackie Combs [11:12]: "In California, assets acquired during marriage are presumed to be community property."

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12. Postnuptial Agreements: When and How

Postnuptial agreements function similarly to prenups but are executed after marriage. Combs advises that they can still be valuable for defining asset division and financial responsibilities.

Jackie Combs [34:33]: "It's yours. If you decide you want to give a gift to your spouse... it's a very generous thing."

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13. Common Disputes and Negotiation Tips

Combs highlights common financial disputes, such as differing views on asset purchases or hidden debts. She urges couples to treat financial discussions like business meetings—set agendas, stay on topic, and maintain respect.

Jackie Combs [24:38]: "Treat your partner like a business partner."

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14. Final Thoughts and Closing Questions

The episode concludes with Combs sharing the messiest disputes she's encountered—often trivial items like pots and pans, which are manifestations of deeper control issues. She underscores the importance of clear agreements to avoid such conflicts.

Jackie Combs [37:23]: "It's never really about the pots and pans... It's a lack of control."

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Jackie Combs [03:20]: "I think ultimately you're not on the same page. You're not financial partners."
• Jackie Combs [05:11]: "Just because you're a prenup, it does... doesn't mean you have to change all the terms of the law."
• Jackie Combs [08:00]: "But before you sign on the dotted line, absolutely consult with an attorney."
• Jackie Combs [14:55]: "Their teams may have said that, but they believed in love."
• Jackie Combs [29:37]: "Financial infidelity is real, common, and really scary."
• Jackie Combs [24:43]: "Set a financial plan together, be partners."
• Jackie Combs [37:23]: "It's never really about the pots and pans... It's a lack of control."

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Conclusion

In this episode of Networth and Chill, Vivian Tu and Jackie Combs offer a comprehensive look into how financial dynamics influence marriages and divorces. From the necessity of prenuptial and postnuptial agreements to managing financial transparency and partnership, listeners gain valuable insights into safeguarding their relationships against financial turmoil. The discussion emphasizes proactive financial communication as a cornerstone of a healthy, enduring marriage.

For more personalized advice, Combs directs listeners to her platform Love Richer on social media, encouraging open dialogues about finances in relationships.

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Note: This summary excludes advertisements, intros, outros, and non-content sections as per instructions.

Transcript

[Jackie Combs]

We are taught to have blinders when we fall in love. And ultimately, who you marry is the biggest financial decision you will make in your life.

[Vivian Tu]

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What'S up, rich friends? Welcome back to another episode of Net Worth and Chill with me. Your host, Vivian Tu, AKA Urich, BFF and your favorite Wall street girlie. And if you are watching this episode instead of listening to it, you may have noticed a very specific wardrobe choice. Because today we are talking all about love and money and maybe some gold digging. Can you guys hear my shovel? So if you are here and you are interested, you're probably wondering, what do love and money have in common? And why are they so important to talk about together?

Well.

Well, fun fact or not so fun fact, 50% of all marriages end in divorce in the US and sex and money consistently rank as the top two reasons why couples fight. So prenups are sadly only used in 10% of all marriages as of 2022. But it seems like we should be talking about money a lot earlier than when we actually get to the point of needing a divorce. So as of 2023, the wedding services market was off $196.58 billion with a B and is anticipated to grow to 219.8 billion in 2024 and 327.19 billion by 2028. So instead of showing you the fairy tale lifetime movie version of love, today, we are going to get real. I'm so excited to talk to our guests and you should be too. She's a California family law attorney at Blank Rome LLP and author of an upcoming book called Love Richer. Everyone, please welcome Jackie Combs.

[Jackie Combs]

Hi. Good morning.

[Vivian Tu]

Thank you so much for being here. I have so many questions.

[Jackie Combs]

I'm so excited to be here. I love your outfit. You look fab.

[Vivian Tu]

Okay, so as a tried and true divorce attorney.

[Jackie Combs]

Yeah.

[Vivian Tu]

I have to ask you, do you actually believe in love?

[Jackie Combs]

I do. I do. I'm promotive of marriage. I believe in marriage. I am married. And I support all my clients who want to get married.

[Vivian Tu]

And is that hard to continue to believe in when you're constantly seeing marriages fall apart?

[Jackie Combs]

No, not at all.

[Vivian Tu]

Not at all.

[Jackie Combs]

My grandparents just celebrated this week their 72nd wedding anniversary. My parents will be celebrating their 50th this year, and my in laws, before my father in law passed away, celebrated 52 years. I believe in love.

[Vivian Tu]

Okay, so you have a family tree full of people who really believe in love, have been married for quite some time. Why do you think so many marriages end up in divorce?

[Jackie Combs]

Great question. I think ultimately you're not on the same page. You are not partners in your life, and most times, it's really about finances. Right. You're not financial partners. You don't have expecta. You have not set up the expectations to have a successful marriage.

[Vivian Tu]

And now that everyone listening, you know, is hearing this, I need to ask, in your personal life, do you have a prenup?

[Jackie Combs]

I don't.

[Vivian Tu]

You don't?

[Jackie Combs]

I don't. I know.

[Vivian Tu]

You're a divorce attorney.

[Jackie Combs]

I know. But I'll tell you why. Both my husband and I are attorneys. He doesn't practice. He got out a long time ago. But we made an informed financial decision together. We knew the law, and we were fine with the law. Now, that being said, I also met him when I was 23 years old.

[Vivian Tu]

Right.

[Jackie Combs]

So I wasn't. I wasn't anticipating, you know, the divorce. And that is, you know, I have that conversation with my clients, and we've built everything together. Now, that being said, if I were to get married today, with the level of assets that I have, I would absolutely get a prenuptial agreement, even if it just codified the law.

[Vivian Tu]

Okay, so who should and should not get a prenup?

[Jackie Combs]

Ooh, great question. I think if you have assets prior to marriage, like significant assets, or if you own a company before marriage, or if you just really want to codify the law and set up clearance.

[Vivian Tu]

What does that mean, codify the law?

[Jackie Combs]

Okay, so that means if you want to follow the law and. And you know what the law is, and you're totally fine with that, and you just want an agreement that says, we are going to follow California law of how to split assets, and this is what it's going to look like, you can totally do that. So just because you're a prenup, it does. Just because you enter into a prenup or any kind of agreement, it doesn't mean that you have to change all the terms of the law to say, this is mine, this is yours, and there's nothing in between. You can basically say, no. You know, I owned this house prior to marriage. I'm going to retain my separate property interest in that house. And you're going to share in the appreciation of it.

[Vivian Tu]

Yeah. Why do you think prenups have such a bad rap? They're always talked about as, oh, you don't trust me. Like this relationship is already off the rails before it starts.

[Jackie Combs]

Because, you know, we are taught to have blinders when we fall in love. It's the wedding industry. Yeah, you just talked about it. It's a $200 billion how much I.

[Vivian Tu]

Spent on my wedding, by the way.

[Jackie Combs]

Who doesn't? Of course, who doesn't? But you know, because we all want that bride moment. We are taught to be brides without what it means to be a wife or a partner. And ultimately who you marry is the biggest financial decision you will make in your life. And individuals are more likely or more willing to go into bed with somebody before they're willing to be financially intimate with somebody. And there's a problem with that.

[Vivian Tu]

Yeah. What do you think? You mentioned this earlier about how a lot of divorces stem from having not being on the same page.

[Jackie Combs]

Yeah.

[Vivian Tu]

Like when do most people talk about money now in their relationships? If you know the stat and when do you think they should be talking about money?

[Jackie Combs]

So I don't know exactly the stat, but ultimately they should be talking about it from very get go.

[Vivian Tu]

Yeah, that's what I think too, in the beginning.

[Jackie Combs]

Because you want to establish like who's taking you out on the date, who's paying for that, what your expectations are. Are you willing to buy joint assets together? Are. Do you want to keep things separate? Do you want to talk about money? Money should not be taboo. It's really empowering and positive to have financial agency in your relationship and, and, and be partners. Even if you don't decide to buy assets together, being on the same page is what's so important.

[Vivian Tu]

Yeah. So say you and I are going, you know, we've been dating for a while.

[Jackie Combs]

Okay.

[Vivian Tu]

We're both so broke.

[Jackie Combs]

Okay.

[Vivian Tu]

Should we still get a prenuptial agreement if we want to get married?

[Jackie Combs]

I think it depends. It depends what state you're in, what you want out of the prenuptial agreement, what your values are with respect to the prenuptial. I don't think everybody needs one, but if you are going to.

[Vivian Tu]

That is such a unique take, by the way. I feel like I'm always like, everyone should get a prenup. Because you never know.

[Jackie Combs]

You never know. Well, you never know. That's true. But I think if you're going to forego one, you need to make a smart and informed financial decision. So at least know the law. At least consult with an attorney, know what rights you're giving up or what rights you know you want.

[Vivian Tu]

Yeah. And can I ask, what does a typical prenup cost?

[Jackie Combs]

So it totally varies. Varies on the level of complexity. It varies on your level of assets. I've had some that have cost a couple thousand. I've some that have cost tens of thousands. And it really just depends. But I always tell my clients up front to keep the cost down. Let's negotiate the deal points first before we start drafting. And I think if you and your partner know what you want before you get lawyers, lawyers can just basically draft what you envision.

[Vivian Tu]

Oh, so I sit down with my boo and we determine what exactly it'll actually mean in layman's terms. And then you guys write it for us.

[Jackie Combs]

Exactly. And obviously, I'm going to advise you of, like, okay, well, this is the. You know, what you're giving up, or this is what you could do, because that's my job. Right. But ultimately, you guys come up with the deal. You want to set yourselves up for financial success for the rest of your life. So you guys should be on the same page about it.

[Vivian Tu]

What is your POV on the technological prenup services? Whether it's like the, you know, the zoom info, like the zoom lawyer thing. Dot com.

[Jackie Combs]

Okay, so there are so many digital platforms now. There's. Hello, prenup. Yeah. Sheryl Sandberg's former chief of staff just, I think, raised 4 million to launch a turbo tax. I think digital platforms are great for prenups and divorces. But before you sign on the dotted line. Absolutely. Consult with an attorney, make sure you know what you are signing, and make sure you talk to somebody.

[Vivian Tu]

Yeah. And in the same way, that'll probably save you a ton of money. Right. Like, you just need the final review, which is maybe a handful of hours versus dozens of them, to get it done.

[Jackie Combs]

Exactly, exactly.

[Vivian Tu]

I love that. Typically with prenups, people often think that there's some type of gold digging involved. And the historical is that one person ends up Richie Rich and one person ends up completely destitute. Like, can you give us a couple examples of the. Just like, that's not true.

[Jackie Combs]

Yeah, it's totally not true.

[Vivian Tu]

Yeah.

[Jackie Combs]

Okay. So there are multiple reasons why to have a prenup. One, it's your Second marriage, you have assets. You want to make sure that those assets go to your children or you have a business before you get married, or you own a home before you get married, or you're a partner at a company before you get married. There are certain reasons why it's important or you know, family wealth. And there are other reasons. Just like we talked about before is really you're just, you know, crossing your T's, dotting your I's and codifying the law.

[Vivian Tu]

Yeah. Can I ask, what is the craziest thing that you've seen in a prenup?

[Jackie Combs]

Oh, you see lots of things. You see lots of things. Yes, I've seen fidelity clauses.

[Vivian Tu]

Do those work, by the way? Do fidelity clauses work?

[Jackie Combs]

Not in California. Ooh. It really comes into whether they're enforceable. Right.

[Vivian Tu]

Okay.

[Jackie Combs]

So provisions like that are against public policy.

[Vivian Tu]

Can you explain to me what that means?

[Jackie Combs]

It is not promotive of marriage.

[Vivian Tu]

Wait, what is that? I'm so confused.

[Jackie Combs]

It's against public policy to have a provision, let's say about child support, how much you're going to pay child support or you know, because California for example, is a no fault state, like it doesn't matter why you're getting divorced. There's nobody to blame. You are getting divorced. You can't then penalize somebody financially for infidelity.

[Vivian Tu]

Also, what about in the different types of states? I know there's a term called community property, states versus not community property. Can you explain the difference between the two?

[Jackie Combs]

California, for example, is a community property state. Other states have different laws of how your assets will be split in the event of a divorce.

[Vivian Tu]

And what does it mean to be community property?

[Jackie Combs]

Sure. So in California what it means is that assets acquired during marriage are presumed to be community. So 5050 unless they derive from a separate property source. Separate property assets are assets that are acquired prior to marriage that are acquired during the marriage by virtue of gift inheritance or that stem from your separate property. So for example, if you own a house before we get married because we're getting married, and you then rent it out while we get married, the income that you receive during the marriage is your separate property from your separate property asset. Or if you have $100 in a bank account or a hundred thousand dollars in a bank account and that and you do not contribute any funds to that account while we're married and it grows the appreciation, that growth of that bank account is your separate property.

[Vivian Tu]

Got it, Got it. So it's really like yours, mine and ours. Separation style.

[Jackie Combs]

Correct. And it can get a little tricky. Right. Because if there's appreciation on mixed assets, like if you continue to contribute to that bank account during the marriage. Well, what's yours? What's mine? What's ours? Is it derived from a separate property or is it derived from our blood, sweat and efforts, which is our work efforts? And that would be community property unless you have an agreement that says otherwise.

[Vivian Tu]

Can I get your POV on the term gold digger?

[Jackie Combs]

Yes. And your outfit is quite fitting for today. You know, I find that term to be quite antiquated and a little lame.

[Vivian Tu]

Yeah.

[Jackie Combs]

Yeah. Because there is a difference, Right. Between choosing a partner who shares the same financial values as you and same financial goals and setting yourself up to have a successfully financial marriage that is vastly different than somebody going out and strategically picking. Picking out somebody for financial gain or having a child with somebody just for child support payments. Right. That to me, is not a gold digger. That's a financial predator. And there's a difference. Right. You know, and we have to.

[Vivian Tu]

Wow.

[Jackie Combs]

I know. Right. Well, you know, you think of like the Dirty Johns, right?

[Vivian Tu]

Yeah, yeah.

[Jackie Combs]

That kind of story of somebody who is really going out to get somebody's money.

[Vivian Tu]

Yeah.

[Jackie Combs]

That's. That's different.

[Vivian Tu]

Yeah, that's predatorial.

[Jackie Combs]

That is opinion. Yeah. That can be very predatorial. And it's not, you know, we have to shy away from these derogatory terms of putting, I think specifically women down because, you know, being CEO of the household is a very valuable job. You add a lot of value to that. Yeah.

[Vivian Tu]

And I'd love to get your take on the different roles. Like more traditionally in heterosexual relationships, men and women have. How has it been seeing more and more women actually being breadwinners or earning a lot of money? Has that changed your industry in any way?

[Jackie Combs]

No, it hasn't.

[Vivian Tu]

Okay.

[Jackie Combs]

But what I will say is that you see a lot more women having financial agency in their relationship, which is a really good thing. You know, empower yourself, be financial partners, have a seat at the table and have a conversation and know where your money is going. So important.

[Vivian Tu]

Okay. So I want to take a quick pivot.

[Jackie Combs]

Yeah.

[Vivian Tu]

And we are going to talk about a few terms or stories.

[Jackie Combs]

Okay.

[Vivian Tu]

And I want you to give me your POV or tell me exactly what happened in the case of JLO and Ben Affleck. We know that they didn't have a prenup.

[Jackie Combs]

Right.

[Vivian Tu]

Why the hell would two people so rich not get a prenup?

[Jackie Combs]

Great question. It's surprising. Yeah, it is definitely surprising. I think you know, like their teams.

[Vivian Tu]

Weren'T like, hey, you should probably do this.

[Jackie Combs]

Their teams may have said that. Right. But they believed in love. They thought it was happily ever after. And that is okay for the second time around. For the second time around. Right. And that's totally okay. And they're the kind of, you know, couple where it's really easy to say, what's yours is yours, what's mine is mine. Cause they're significant, obviously, separate property for both of those individuals. What makes it a little tricky, right, is that they bought a home together.

[Vivian Tu]

Right.

[Jackie Combs]

That I think is still on the market, or, you know, and two is, I believe he started a production company during the marriage that has projects. So it's really just determining how those are, you know, assets are going to play out.

[Vivian Tu]

If you had been their advisor, what would you have said to try and convince them to get a prenup?

[Jackie Combs]

Get a prenup.

[Vivian Tu]

You would have just been like, you.

[Jackie Combs]

Must, you must, you must. Let's just, you know, make it easy, simple. You've been down this road before in a divorce. Let's, you know, not overcomplicated. I support your marriage, you know, stay married. But let's just have the paperwork.

[Vivian Tu]

Yeah.

[Jackie Combs]

Just in case.

[Vivian Tu]

I love that. Let's go and pivot to. Oof. This is a tough one because they were together for, I want to say, 10, 11 years. Tom Sandoval and Ariana Maddox.

[Jackie Combs]

Yeah, yeah. So that's really interesting because, you know, they were together, they were not married. They have multiple. They had, I think, multiple businesses together.

[Vivian Tu]

The cocktail businesses, the bars, what have you.

[Jackie Combs]

Yeah, exact. And they had a home. And after Scandival went down, she, Ariana, continued to live in the residence with Tom. And ultimately you saw in the news that she had to sue him to get the house sold. And I think a year later, because they could not come up to an.

[Vivian Tu]

Agreement, like, she couldn't just buy out his half.

[Jackie Combs]

I don't think they were able to reach an agreement.

[Vivian Tu]

Gotcha.

[Jackie Combs]

Right. And I think he said publicly that he had made an offer that she didn't accept. And that is why a cohabitation agreement, if you haven't heard of one, that's an agreement that couples can enter into when they are dating, that defines their rights and responsibilities about their finances. And in the event of they, you know, in the event of them breaking up, what happens to their assets? So if they have a joint house, they don't have to sue the other person to get out, you know, to get the house sold. But instead, they have parameters, you know, clearly defined of if we break up, it's going to go on the market within X days, unless one of us buys each other out at X price. And I think the house, in their example just went on the market last week, which is, I think, over a year and a half after everything's gone down.

[Vivian Tu]

So I'm sure there were a lot of lawyers involved, a lot of paperwork.

[Jackie Combs]

A lot of time and a lot of money.

[Vivian Tu]

Yeah.

[Jackie Combs]

Unnecessary money. Right. Because entering into a prenup or a cohabitation agreement or any kind of agreement, it's really an investment in yourself. Right. You are paying a little bit more money up front to ensure that you have protection later down the road.

[Vivian Tu]

And can we talk a little bit about this cohabitation agreement? Because I actually bought my condo with my now husband back when he was still my boyfriend and my parents were acting like I was making the worst financial decision of my entire life.

[Jackie Combs]

Yeah.

[Vivian Tu]

Can you explain to us what are a couple options for a cohabitation agreement and how they play out?

[Jackie Combs]

Totally. So that's a perfect example, right? You guys buy a home together and you want to define like, I own 50% and I own 50% or I put down more money on the down payment, so I'm going to own it in proportion to how much I contributed towards the down payment or acquisition. If you put in money for the capital improvements or something like that. And it also can identify how you're going to pay for expenses, so. Or if, for example, you and I are dating or you and your boyfriend at the time and he moved into a house that you owned solely.

[Vivian Tu]

Oh, I never even thought about that.

[Jackie Combs]

Right. So you're not. You're gonna wanna make sure that he's not gonna claim or make any claim to an interest in a house that you own. And you also want parameters that in the event you break up when he would move out, that he has 30 days or 60 days to vacate the residence. You don't have somebody, you know, who you've now broken up with. It's an uncomfortable circumstance and they're still living in a house with you.

[Vivian Tu]

Okay, so say you and I, we've been dating five years.

[Jackie Combs]

Yeah.

[Vivian Tu]

And neither of us own a home yet.

[Jackie Combs]

Okay.

[Vivian Tu]

We want to get one. We're not married. Like, what are the most common types of splits when it comes to. We're buying a home.

[Jackie Combs]

So. Great question. You can own homes in different. Different ways. Right. So you can own it as joint tenanc. Right. Of survivorship. You can own it as tenants in common. What does that mean? So for joint tenancy in common, it means I own my 50% as my full ownership. You own your 50%? If I die, I still own my 50%.

[Vivian Tu]

So.

[Jackie Combs]

And it's going to go to whoever I determine it's going to go to.

[Vivian Tu]

So it's possible that I own half of this house and your parents or your dependents own half. That's a nightmare.

[Jackie Combs]

That could be a nightmare.

[Vivian Tu]

Okay. Okay.

[Jackie Combs]

Yes, totally. So. And whereas rights of survivorship is if I pass away, then my 50% goes to you.

[Vivian Tu]

Nice.

[Jackie Combs]

Yeah.

[Vivian Tu]

I think that's what we have set up.

[Jackie Combs]

Yeah.

[Vivian Tu]

I was like, I'm not owning this with your mom. Like, this will be crazy.

[Jackie Combs]

Exactly. But that's the conversation to have. Right. Because you know, when couples get together, they have different financial circumstances and they may have obligations. And you talk about this in your book about you don't loan right. You gift, but taking care of families. And so that's a conversation, like really important conversation before you buy an asset together or start seriously dating of what your expectations are and financial values are.

[Vivian Tu]

Okay, got it. And for our last example couple.

[Jackie Combs]

Yes.

[Vivian Tu]

I'd like to ask about Shannon Beater and John Jansen.

[Jackie Combs]

Okay, so was it a gift? Was it a loan? The facelift money? That is a great example of why cohabitation agreement is so important. Because before there was a transfer of money from me to you, we know that's going to be a loan. Unless I write a note that says this is a gift, there's no fight about it later down the road.

[Vivian Tu]

I love that. So I want to pivot from some, maybe some more negative conversations, pivot towards some really positive stuff. Have you actually experienced couples filing for divorce and then during the process being like, never mind, we're going to stay together?

[Jackie Combs]

Yes, Yes, I have.

[Vivian Tu]

Tell me, don't name names, but tell me, you know, an example of how or why this even happens.

[Jackie Combs]

So I've had quite a few clients, quite a few who have reconciled. Right. And that's great. You know, they want to try to make their marriage work. And like I said earlier, is it.

[Vivian Tu]

Just because it's too expensive to divorce?

[Jackie Combs]

Well, sometimes finances are a reason. Sometimes it's children. Sometimes, you know, people have second thoughts. It's a really big decision, particularly if you've been with somebody for 20 years, 30 years, even 10 years, you know, what is on the other side of that journey. But, you know, like I said, I'm promotive of marriage and I actually I always talk to my clients, like, are you sure you want to go through this? You having second thoughts? Do you want to talk to, you know, reconcile? I support you.

[Vivian Tu]

On average, like, a percentage of the couples that do end up reconciling during the divorce process, how many of them actually stay married?

[Jackie Combs]

A lot of them come back.

[Vivian Tu]

Oh, okay.

[Jackie Combs]

Whether six months or a year later. Yeah, a lot of them come back.

[Vivian Tu]

Okay. And then for the marriages that were saved, what do you think really saved the marriage? Because they were at the brink. And then to actually be able to make it work, like, something had to have changed. Right.

[Jackie Combs]

You know, a lot of thought, a lot of therapy, maybe, and really working on whatever was causing, you know, the divorce.

[Vivian Tu]

Yeah. And I know you are a divorce attorney. I'm not trying to take away your business. But if the people listening at home have a partner that they're kind of getting to their wits end with, what are a couple steps they can take ahead of actually calling up a divorce attorney? Like, what are other softer solutions that can maybe get them to a point of reconciliation?

[Jackie Combs]

Go into therapy.

[Vivian Tu]

Yeah.

[Jackie Combs]

Start talking about your problems. Communicate. That's the problem, right. Is so many couples don't know how to communicate and communicate about big issues. And it's really not one big issue that's really gonna demise the relationship. It's a buildup, you see? And if you are able to communicate about the little things, you're gonna be so much better at communicating about the big things, because life is gonna throw you so many curveballs and there's so many stressors, and you wanna be able to, you know, get through those issues together.

[Vivian Tu]

Okay. And we talked about how sex and money are typically the top two reasons why couples fight. What are the most common financial issues that you've seen in relationships? Like, what do they fight about?

[Jackie Combs]

Lack of financial transparency. Not being on the same page. You know, somebody wants to buy a house, somebody doesn't want to. You are not aligned financially in your relationship.

[Vivian Tu]

Is this the case for folks who have a lot of money versus who don't have as much money?

[Jackie Combs]

No, no. Whether you're talking about $20 or $2 million, conversation is still the same. It's just the amount that you're discussing is all relative to your financial circumstances.

[Vivian Tu]

So it's the same conversation?

[Jackie Combs]

Same conversation.

[Vivian Tu]

Just more zeros.

[Jackie Combs]

Just more. Just more zeros. Yeah.

[Vivian Tu]

And how, in your eyes, can a couple, aside from just communication, like, actually.

[Jackie Combs]

Be good with money together, be on the same page? Right. Set a financial plan together, be partners when you want to communicate about finances, Treat it like any other business meeting.

[Vivian Tu]

Yeah.

[Jackie Combs]

Set a time, set a place, set an agenda, stay on topic. You know, treat each other like business partners because who you marry is going to be the biggest financial decision you make your entire life. And you want to treat your partner like a, you know, like a business partner. So stay on topic. Don't have financial conference conversations when you want a Netflix and chill, right?

[Vivian Tu]

Yeah.

[Jackie Combs]

Don't have financial conversations when your partner's on deadline at work. Really establish a framework and an environment where you can be vulnerable and honest and have an open dialogue. And that is going to help you or set you up for success.

[Vivian Tu]

I love the idea of treating it like a boardroom meeting, like an agenda, a location, a time.

[Jackie Combs]

Absolutely.

[Vivian Tu]

It's like a standing money date.

[Jackie Combs]

It's a standing money date. Exactly. And so many people don't do that because they don't know how to communicate about finances. And you talk about that a lot in your book, right? Especially at work. And then people get upset and uncomfortable and you kind of, you can explode. Whether you're talking about getting new drapes or you're talking about put how much money to put into, you know, a 5 to 9 plan for your child. But being on the same page and setting up those expectations early and talking about it early in your relationship will help you have a long lasting relationship.

[Vivian Tu]

I like that so much. Obviously you can't talk about your own clients, but what's the most expensive divorce case you've actually ever heard of?

[Jackie Combs]

So we work with, you know, extraordinary high net worth individuals and I will tell you this, it is not those who have the most money who spend the most on divorces. It's those who want to fight. And I tell my clients all the time, do not fight for principle.

[Vivian Tu]

I would rather, oh, like, don't fight just to fight.

[Jackie Combs]

Don't fight just to fight. You are going to lose. It is a lose lose. Don't waste the money. Pay for peace of mind. So give your spouse, be generous with your spouse. Move on with your life. Because the mental and financial ramifications of staying in the divorce process longer than you need to far outweigh the, the financial benefit.

[Vivian Tu]

Have you seen the meme of the couple splitting up their beanie babies in court? Yeah, like what? Can you like, explain to me what was going on there?

[Jackie Combs]

Beanie babies were a really big thing.

[Vivian Tu]

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[Jackie Combs]

They were sure they were real assets. Right?

[Vivian Tu]

But like, why were they in a courtroom with a pile of them?

[Jackie Combs]

Yeah, they were splitting them up. I don't. I can't tell you. I mean, it's ridiculous, right? It's really ridiculous and it's really demonstrates of how, you know, silly the divorce process can be. Don't fight over pots and pans. Buy new pots and pans. You're gonna make the money back. Don't bite over, fight over the furniture. Don't litigate over, you know, non necessities.

[Vivian Tu]

What do you think couples should be doing to split their finances in advance? Like just your personal pov? Do you prefer a fully separate, fully joint or like a yours? Mine and our situation.

[Jackie Combs]

So I'm not a financial expert, okay? But as a family law attorney, I will say this. I think that you should always have access to cash. You should always have your own.

[Vivian Tu]

Always have your own money.

[Jackie Combs]

Always have your own money. But that doesn't mean that we can't have yours. Mine, Ours. It just means I know that if I need a little cash to do X, Y and Z, I can go do that.

[Vivian Tu]

Okay, I love that. That's a really, really good answer. And we got to cover something kind of sketchy. Okay, let's talk financial infidelity.

[Jackie Combs]

Financial.

[Vivian Tu]

What if you don't even know what your partner has when you're going into a divorce? Like, what if I've just been lying to you this whole time? Like, what if I have credit card debt Or a secret seven figure inheritance, or like, any of this crazy stuff, like, how do you figure out what each of you is actually worth if they won't tell you?

[Jackie Combs]

So in California, for example, you have to do complete financial disclosures before you get divorced. So you have to say, this is, you know, list all my assets and all my debts, and you have to sign it under penalty of perjury. So it's real. It's real, you know, so, yes, before you sign on the dotted line of getting divorced, you want to know what your partner has. But financial infidelity is real common and really scary, you know, and it happens so much more often than people are willing to admit.

[Vivian Tu]

I mean, we've seen all of the, like, the headlines recently, right? Like Tinder, swindler, like Sweet Bobby. All of the, like, shows and movies about people literally being scammers.

[Jackie Combs]

Yeah.

[Vivian Tu]

Like, it's crazy.

[Jackie Combs]

It's really scary. And those are financial predators. Right? But yes, but aside from that in your relationship, that's why it's so important to be on the same page and to communicate openly and honestly up front and set your expectations up upfront about finances. Because you don't want, like you said, to get in a divorce and find out that your spouse has taken, you know, a $200,000 personal loan that you had no idea about. Because if you don't have a prenup, that could be, you're on the hook for half of that. So that can be really scary.

[Vivian Tu]

Okay, we are going to play a fun little game now, okay? It's called Richard Ditch Marriage Edition. First up, one partner having their name on the deed on a property where both partners live.

[Jackie Combs]

Oh, that's not a Richard Ditch. That is a facts and circumstances situation.

[Vivian Tu]

Ooh, Tell me what that means.

[Jackie Combs]

So depends, right? Did you buy your house prior to marriage? Did you inherit that house? Did you receive it as a gift? Or is it a house, you know, purchased together and with what funds?

[Vivian Tu]

Yeah.

[Jackie Combs]

So really just depends on the facts and circumstances.

[Vivian Tu]

Okay. What about an allowance for stay at home partners?

[Jackie Combs]

Ditch. I hate the term allowance.

[Vivian Tu]

What do you think we should do instead? So situations that people who are the CEOs of the household do still have their own money, even if they don't have an income coming in traditionally.

[Jackie Combs]

So let's get away from the term allowance and instead let's talk about financial planning together. So. And budgeting together. So, you know, I have access to the cash. I know what that, you know, where I should and shouldn't spend with. But I'm not getting an allowance because I'm doing, you know, cleaning the house.

[Vivian Tu]

Paying your partner's loans of any sort, whether it be student credit card. Like, what's your POV on that?

[Jackie Combs]

I think that's a very generous and nice thing to do. You know, I think it depends, though, if you're making that choice as a gift. I think that's a really generous thing as long as you guys are on the same page about it. But if you have, can I claw.

[Vivian Tu]

It back in the divorce?

[Jackie Combs]

Yeah, exactly. But that depends if your expectations are that you're going to be repaid and, you know, student loan debt is your separate property, if you acquired it prior to marriage. Right. You know, with some parameters about that, but, you know, just setting up your clear expectations.

[Vivian Tu]

Assets. Not assets in divorce. Like a dog.

[Jackie Combs]

Well, a dog is property in California. Dog is property. But the courts can consider the best interest of the animal, right? Yeah, yeah. A lot of people fight about the dogs. Wait, but, like, I would fight about the dog.

[Vivian Tu]

Yeah. But I'm like, envisioning the Legally Blonde scene where she's like, I'm taking the dog. Who decides what is actually better for the dog?

[Jackie Combs]

The courts can decide what the best interest of the dog.

[Vivian Tu]

But how do they decide that?

[Jackie Combs]

I don't know. I wish I had the answer. You know, who's gonna take care of the dog? Who pays for the pet vet visit? Who takes the dog to the park?

[Vivian Tu]

It's like, child.

[Jackie Combs]

It's like, you know, it's your kid, it's your kid, you know, but, you know, oh, I love dogs.

[Vivian Tu]

Yeah. Same. Okay. And last but not least, the more traditional household setup. Single breadwinner.

[Jackie Combs]

Totally cool. Totally.

[Vivian Tu]

You're cool then.

[Jackie Combs]

Yeah, I'm totally cool with it. Because, again, being CEO of the household is. Is a big job. Right. And Eve Rotsky, author of Fair Play, you know, has done a lot of research and quantified that. I think that amounts to $175,000 of unpaid labor each year.

[Vivian Tu]

Yeah.

[Jackie Combs]

So, you know, if I'm CEO of the household. So you can be CEO at ABC Company. That's a really good thing, you know, and as long as you're a team about it. Right. We're making this plan together as a couple.

[Vivian Tu]

Inheritance. Me keeping all of my inheritance.

[Jackie Combs]

Yeah.

[Vivian Tu]

I think it's yours versus us splitting it.

[Jackie Combs]

It's yours.

[Vivian Tu]

Really?

[Jackie Combs]

It's yours. And I think if you decide you want to give a gift to your spouse or your partner, that's, again, a very generous thing to do. And as Long as you feel good about it and don't want to say. Okay, take back.

[Vivian Tu]

Mm. Okay. What about say we have already gotten married.

[Jackie Combs]

Yeah.

[Vivian Tu]

We didn't get a prenup, and I want one now. What's the difference between a prenup and a postnup?

[Jackie Combs]

So a postnup is basically post your nuptials. Right. It is after you get married and a lot.

[Vivian Tu]

Is there any difference aside from just the timing?

[Jackie Combs]

No.

[Vivian Tu]

Really? Okay.

[Jackie Combs]

No. I mean, there are different fiduciary response, you know, obligations that you have to somebody who you're married with versus somebody that you are just dating. So there's different legal language and layman's terms that go into the agreement. But ultimately, it can define your assets, it can define support, it can define the same, you know, things.

[Vivian Tu]

Okay. Can we do a little role play?

[Jackie Combs]

Sure.

[Vivian Tu]

We're married.

[Jackie Combs]

Yeah.

[Vivian Tu]

You have decided we did not get a prenup. You've decided you want a postnup.

[Jackie Combs]

Yeah.

[Vivian Tu]

How would you broach that subject with me? I'm just, like, chilling on the couch unaware, and you're about to come and talk to me. What do you say?

[Jackie Combs]

Well, I think it depends on why I want the postnup. Right. So if I've just inherited money and I say to you, honey, I'm, you know, inheriting this money, or I've just inherited this money, I really just want to codify the law, and I want to make sure that this is ours, or I want to give a gift to you. Ultimately, you really need to be sensitive about the conversation and make your spouse feel vulnerable and comfortable with having a dialogue and not saying, this is what we're going to do, and either we're going to stay married and we're gonna do this, or we're gonna break up.

[Vivian Tu]

Oh, people say that.

[Jackie Combs]

Oh, yeah.

[Vivian Tu]

What do you do if you have broached the subject with your partner of, like, a postnup or a prenup, and they react super duper negatively, like they do not wanna do it recalibrate.

[Jackie Combs]

Right. And really come from a vulnerable reason as to why you want the prenuptial agreement or the postnuptial agreement. Maybe, you know, set it up like a business reading. Right. Identify the agenda, whether you need to then go talk to a lawyer or mediator or a therapist to really work through what is the reason that you want this agreement. It doesn't mean you're setting yourself up for divorce. There may be an underlying reason why it's important. Inheriting something or there was infidelity in the relationship, and you need to work through that. And you want to know that your assets are going to be, you know, separate at that point to feel incentivized to stay in the relationship.

[Vivian Tu]

Okay, I want to close the interview out on two big questions.

[Jackie Combs]

Okay.

[Vivian Tu]

What is the messiest thing you've ever seen? People fight over.

[Jackie Combs]

The pots and pans.

[Vivian Tu]

The pots and pans. Like, actually the pots and pans.

[Jackie Combs]

Sometimes people will fight over the pots and pans or, you know, not leaving the house. You know.

[Vivian Tu]

Okay.

[Jackie Combs]

Or it really just depends. People can. It's. It's never really about the pots and pans or leaving the house. It's a lack of control. And, you know, during the divorce process or even, like, the prenup process, you can feel so out of control because you are relying on other people to help navigate and advocate for you during a very difficult transition or one of what should be the happiest transition of your life. And. And not being in total control can be really unsettling.

[Vivian Tu]

I lied. I have one more question.

[Jackie Combs]

Yeah.

[Vivian Tu]

Why do some people leave the marriage? Both parties are sad, Both parties are happy, and in some cases, one person is happy and one person sad.

[Jackie Combs]

Well, reaching a deal, like any negotiation, parties come to a compromise. Sometimes it's a good compromise, sometimes it's not. Sometimes you have different expectations of how it's gonna go. Two households is more expensive to run than one y. So ultimately, you know, marriage is a journey, and you're at the end of the journey. And a lot of times my clients are really happy to be on the other side, and they want hugs, you know, they want to go out for drinks. They're so happy. But it's also the end of a chapter, right? A really beautiful chapter that just unfortunately didn't work out in the long run. Yeah.

[Vivian Tu]

Okay. And last question I like to ask is, do you have any questions for me? Anything yorh BFF can help with, personal finance wise?

[Jackie Combs]

Absolutely. I would love to know what a lot of individuals want to know about prenups, divorces, and how they can communicate better about their finances in their relationship.

[Vivian Tu]

Mmm. Okay. Well, I didn't plug this, by the way. I didn't. She's not a plant. But we will actually be doing a quick you're rich BFF hotline. I love it after this. And we will be taking real questions, and you can find them on my substack. But I want to ask before we wrap, where can everybody find you? Thank you so much for being a treasure trove of wisdom. I feel like I've learned so much.

[Jackie Combs]

Thank you. So I am launching a platform Love Richer on Instagram and other social media outlets and the whole platform is really how to be able to communicate about finances in your relationship, why it's so important to do that. And so if you have any questions for me that you need answers on, please DM me and I will get to you.

[Vivian Tu]

Amazing. Love Richer guys. Check her out.

[Jackie Combs]

Thanks Jackie thank you.

[Vivian Tu]

Thanks for tuning into this week's episode of Net Worth and Chill, part of the Vox Media Podcast network. If you liked the episode, make sure to leave a rating and review and subscribe so you never miss an episode. Got a burning financial question that you want covered in a future episode? Write to us via podcastorrichbff.com follow net worth and Chill Pod on Instagram to stay up to date on all podcast related news. And you can follow me at yourrichbff for even more financial know how. See you next week. Bye.

Support for Net Worth and Chill comes from Amazon One Medical. When you think of Amazon, what's the first thing that comes to mind? Probably convenience. Fast delivery. Everything you need with the click of a button. Now when you think of healthcare, what do you picture? I'm guessing the exact opposite. Well, not anymore, because Amazon is now getting into healthcare. It's called Amazon One Medical and it offers 24. 7 virtual care so you can speak to a provider within minutes. And they've also got Amazon Pharmacy. So after your virtual visit, Amazon can deliver your prescriptions directly to your door. After all, convenient, fast delivery is what Amazon is known for. Thanks to Amazon Pharmacy and Amazon One Medical, healthcare just got less painful. Learn more at health.Amazon.com.