Optimism & Money: How to Think Your Way to Richness with Dr. Sue Varma

Summary

Networth and Chill with Your Rich BFF: Optimism & Money - How to Think Your Way to Richness with Dr. Sue Varma

Hosted by Vivian Tu

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In the January 17, 2024 episode of Networth and Chill with Your Rich BFF, host Vivian Tu delves deep into the intricate relationship between optimism and financial well-being with her guest, Dr. Sue Varma. As Vivian navigates the anxieties of her book launch and upcoming tour, Dr. Varma, a board-certified psychiatrist and clinical assistant professor at NYU Langone Hospital, provides insightful perspectives on cultivating a positive mindset to achieve financial and personal success.

1. Guest Introduction and Background

[00:07] Vivian Tu opens the episode by sharing her personal struggles with anxiety related to her debut book release and upcoming tour. She introduces Dr. Sue Varma, emphasizing her expertise in psychiatry and her upcoming book, Practical Optimism.

[01:49] Dr. Sue Varma elaborates on her multifaceted career, highlighting her clinical work with patients through cognitive behavioral therapy, couples counseling, and her role as the former medical director of the 911 Mental Health Program at NYU. She also discusses her extensive experience in public speaking, contributing mental health insights to major television programs like the Today Show and Good Morning America.

2. The Evolution of Psychiatry's Stigma

[03:38] Vivian Tu poses a pivotal question: "Why do you think psychiatry has gone from something that was so stigmatized, something that was so, like, embarrassing and shameful, and now you can walk onto the subway and hear people making jokes like, 'Oh, my therapist told me,' or 'My psychiatrist told me'?"

[04:02] Dr. Varma attributes the reduced stigma to generational shifts and the profound impact of social media, particularly platforms like TikTok. She notes, "People are normalizing and being vulnerable, having pride in struggling and being like, 'Yeah, I struggle too. But I'm here for you.'" The COVID-19 pandemic further accelerated this change by making mental health a universal topic, as everyone experienced shared struggles and isolation.

3. Understanding Optimism and Pessimism

[06:02] Vivian Tu explores the natural variance in optimism among individuals: "Why do some people naturally just feel more optimistic and other people feel naturally more pessimistic?"

[06:21] Dr. Varma explains that optimism can be genetically influenced, specifically pointing to the oxytocin receptor gene. However, she emphasizes that even those not naturally predisposed to optimism can adopt an optimistic mindset through deliberate practices. She states, "Even if you aren't born with that gene, you can act like an optimist. That's what Practical Optimism is about." This approach involves community building, seeking support, and developing effective coping mechanisms.

4. Practical Optimism vs. Traditional Optimism

[09:52] Vivian Tu seeks clarity on the distinction between practical optimism and traditional forms: "What is the difference between practical optimism versus just the traditional or colloquial definition of optimism?"

[10:09] Dr. Varma delineates the concept by contrasting dispositional optimism with practical optimism. Traditional optimism involves envisioning the best possible outcomes, but often lacks actionable steps. In contrast, practical optimism encompasses eight deliberate steps, starting with having a clear purpose and progressing through emotion regulation, problem-solving, and maintaining healthy habits. She explains, "Practical optimism says, 'Don't worry, I got you, bestie. I got your back. I have a plan for you.'"

5. Actionable Advice for Maintaining Optimism During Stress

As Vivian prepares for her book tour, she seeks Dr. Varma’s advice on managing stress and avoiding burnout while on the road.

[16:16] Dr. Varma identifies key signs of burnout, including cynicism and exhaustion, and offers strategies to combat them:

• Envision the Best Outcome: Visualize a successful and fulfilling day. Vivian envisions, "a packed house, people laughed at my corny jokes, and walked away feeling that it was money well spent."
• Schedule Rest: Incorporate intentional rest periods and "Oasis Moments"—short, five-minute breaks to recharge mentally.
• Stay Present and Purpose-Driven: Focus on the immediate positive impacts rather than solely on long-term goals.

6. The Link Between Optimism and Wealth

[27:35] Vivian Tu references a study suggesting people can discern wealth from facial expressions alone and inquires about the relationship between optimism and financial success.

[28:20] Dr. Varma affirms that optimism is closely linked to increased wealth and productivity. Optimists tend to be more proactive, take risks, and foster better relationships, all of which contribute to financial success. She states, "Optimists have longer-lasting friendships, they're more likely to ask for promotions, and they're more engaged in their work." However, she cautions against toxic optimism, which involves ignoring negative realities rather than constructively addressing them.

7. Can Money Buy Happiness?

Vivian poses a classic question: "Do you think you can buy happiness?"

[35:21] Dr. Varma differentiates between happiness and joy. She defines happiness as "feeling like all of your needs are met and having positive feelings about your life," often tied to external factors. In contrast, joy is cultivated internally through meaning and purpose. While money doesn't directly buy happiness, it facilitates conditions that can enhance it by providing options, time, and resources. She emphasizes valuing experiences over material possessions, sharing her personal preference for spending money on trips and meaningful activities rather than luxury items.

8. Addressing Skepticism Towards Positivity and Mindfulness

[40:17] Vivian Tu addresses the skepticism surrounding optimism and mindfulness, often dismissed as "woo woo."

[40:29] Dr. Varma counters these criticisms by grounding practical optimism in scientific research. She references functional MRI studies showing distinct brain activity in optimists versus pessimists and underscores that her methods are evidence-based. "There's nothing in here that I wouldn't recommend that I actually haven't worked with my patients or seen work with deep science." She highlights the tangible benefits of optimism, including longer lifespans, better health outcomes, and stronger relationships.

9. Closing Thoughts and Resources

In wrapping up, [44:28] Dr. Varma provides information on her upcoming book, Practical Optimism, available through major retailers and her personal website. She encourages listeners to engage with her content for ongoing mental health support and insights.

[45:22] Vivian Tu expresses gratitude, acknowledging Dr. Varma's invaluable advice and reinforcing the episode's key takeaway: cultivating a practical, actionable form of optimism can significantly impact one's financial and personal success.

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Notable Quotes:

• Vivian Tu [00:07]: "If we're being really vulnerable and honest, I have had some pretty bad spiraling negative thoughts... I struggle with being positive when it really matters."

• Dr. Sue Varma [04:02]: "With TikTok, people are normalizing and being vulnerable, having pride in struggling and being like, 'Yeah, I struggle too. But I'm here for you.'"

• Dr. Sue Varma [06:21]: "Even if you aren't born with that gene, you can act like an optimist. That's what Practical Optimism is about."

• Dr. Sue Varma [10:09]: "Practical optimism says, 'Don't worry, I got you, bestie. I got your back. I have a plan for you.'"

• Dr. Sue Varma [28:20]: "Optimists have longer-lasting friendships, they're more likely to ask for promotions, and they're more engaged in their work."

• Dr. Sue Varma [35:21]: "If you have a choice between a bag or spending money on experiences, I would always choose to do experiences."

• Dr. Sue Varma [40:29]: "There's nothing in here that I wouldn't recommend that I actually haven't worked with my patients or seen work with deep science."

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Conclusion:

This episode of Networth and Chill with Your Rich BFF offers a compelling exploration of how adopting a practical, science-backed optimistic mindset can enhance one's financial well-being and overall life satisfaction. Dr. Sue Varma's insights provide listeners with actionable strategies to cultivate optimism, mitigate stress, and ultimately, achieve a richer, more fulfilling life.

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For more episodes and financial wisdom, subscribe to Networth and Chill with Your Rich BFF and follow Vivian Tu across her social media platforms.

Transcript

[Vivian Tu]

What's up rich friends? Welcome back to another episode of Net Worth and Chill with me, your host, Vivian Tu, AKA your rich BFF and your favorite Wall street girly. And I'm sure, as a lot of you guys know, because I won't shut up about it. My debut book came out on December 26 and to say I've been stressed about it would probably be the understatement of the century. I've been hustling nonstop and if we're being really vulnerable and honest, I have had some pret bad spiraling negative thoughts. Things like what if no one buys the book? Or even worse, what if someone spends their hard earned money on the book and then hates it or thinks it's stupid? What if I actually wrote a really shitty book but one of my New Year's resolutions is to help get my anxious thoughts and negative attitude under control. And listen, I'm not always negative. Actually, I consider myself an optimist. But when I get so stressed, I tend to see and then prepare for the worst possible outcomes. So you could say I struggle with being positive when it really matters. Even though I know in my brain that I have so much to be thankful and grateful for. And realistically, my worst case scenarios aren't even legit. Which is why today's guest is going to teach us all a little something about living better, staying more positive and optimistic and managing our thought processes. She's a board certified psychiatrist, clinical assistant professor at NYU Langone Hospital, and the author of the upcoming book Practical Optimism. Everyone, please welcome Dr. Sue Varma.

[Dr. Sue Varma]

Thank you, Vivian. Thank you so much. Congratulations.

[Vivian Tu]

Thank you so much for being here. So we've been friends and mutuals on IG for a while now and so obviously I've stalked your pages. But for all of the listeners who don't have the pleasure of knowing you yet, like explain to us what do you do for a living?

[Dr. Sue Varma]

Yeah, so I'm a psychiatrist and the thing that makes me the happiest is seeing patients. So I work one on one with people. I do cognitive behavioral therapy. If they need medications for depression, anxiety, ocd, I help them with that. I also do couples counseling. I work with families. So the clinical stuff is like one part of what I do. When I first finished training in psychiatry, so it was like 12 years of education. I was the medical director of the 911 Mental Health Program at NYU. So I was treating 911 survivors, people who are living down there, working down there, rescue, recovery. And after I left that job because I really wanted to work with people individually who are like, high functioning people from, like, all different backgrounds. I left, but I stayed at nyu and I still teach a variety of courses to medical students, to residents, next generation of psychiatry. But one of the things that I also love doing is public speaking. So I started talking on first radio, medical conferences, and then all of that led to television. So for the last 15 or 20 years, I've kind of been the morning mental health contributor to the Today show and Good Morning America and CBS Mornings. And that's such an interesting and creative and very different part of what I do. But the reason I went into psychiatry and when I went in, it was not popular at all. And, like, not that many people from my class went into it. And they would be like, why? Like, you're normal ish, you know, like, why would you go into psychiatry? Because there was a stigma that, like, you had to be crazy or something, and you were going, who else would want to work with? You know? And like, now it's like, everyone wants to talk about mental health. So, like, I wanted to help decrease stigma and, you know, spread the word and give people education, give them tips. So, like, now I've learned the art of the 32nd sound bite of, like, how to improve your life. And they're like, go, Sue. And I'm like, I have 20 years of experience to give you. Like, no, no, no, 30 seconds, please. So that's a. You know, it's an art form that you learn over time.

[Vivian Tu]

So I had some other questions planned, but I just need to know this. Why do you think psychiatry has gone from something that was so stigmatized, something that was so, like, embarrassing and shameful, and now you can go walk onto the subway and you'll hear people making jokes and be like, oh, my therapist told me. Or like, my psychiatrist told me, like, why do you think it's become such a common, fun topic in our society?

[Dr. Sue Varma]

I think, you know, I think it's generational, and I think that it's related to social media because, like, you know, so much of the talks that I did was pre social media. Like, it was like in, you know, like 304 or 5. And then I saw, I think with TikTok, I think that changed everything. Like, yes, Facebook, Instagram, but that was mostly like family. You're like, look at me how hot I am on Instagram. But then with TikTok, you have actually, like, these soundbites and education and people like, normalizing and being vulnerable and having pride in struggling and being like, yeah, I struggle too. But I'm here for you. This is what I did. What do you do? And providing snippets of education. I know there's a lot of stuff about toxic positivity and narcissism and certain things take off. My intrusive thought made me, I don't know, push the elevator button 20 times. But it can be funny, it can be anxiety relieving and it's a community building to make fun of ourselves, self deprecating humor. And we can all relate to it. So I feel like that really changed and it advanced us. And then, and then the pandemic, the fact that we were all so stuck, so isolated, needed community and were struggling. And that is another thing. And I saw that like literally March 2020. I remember getting called in a lot to the studios. I was at NBC like five or six times on March 13, Friday the 13th, when everything was like shutting down and they. Everyone wanted to talk about mental health. So mental health went from. And I can just look at the number of times that I was called from like, okay, maybe a couple of times a month, maybe a couple times a year to all day every day. And. And then the producers were the. Because before it was like this special topic, you know, and then it was like the producers were like, I'm stuck at home with my children, my husband is driving me crazy, I need a five minute consult before the pre interview. You know, so like I think all of us for the first time were like, we have to talk about this because we're all struggling and suffering together alike, you know, because normally it was like other people's problems. Oh, you lost your parent. Oh, I'm sorry for you now. It was like we're all in it. So like, even if I was doing interviews with someone in Nepal or England, like no one. It was unspoken. We just looked at each other. We're like YouTube. Yep. You know, so I think that shared experience. Yes, exactly.

[Vivian Tu]

I love that. So I feel like in my group of friends there are certainly people who are more on the spectrum of glass half full and then there are folks who are glass half empty. Why do some people naturally just feel more optimistic and other people feel naturally more pessimistic?

[Dr. Sue Varma]

Great question, Vivian. And you know what I learned? So you know, optimism wasn't anything that they teach you about in medical school. And I got super fascinated by this actually when I was working with the 911 survivors because some of them were just like helping other people. Never took a sick day. And then they went through the same experiences, losing loved ones. Losing their job, getting caught in like the dust and the rubble and seeing bodies. And it was very painful. And so I was like, what is the difference between the glass half empty and the glass half full? Is it something that you're born with, that you just naturally have? And what I found in the research was that there are some people who are born with optimism that optimize. Optimism is genetic and they're actually genes. It's the oxytocin receptor gene that basically codes for op, for oxytocin. And oxytocin, as you know, is like a cuddle, hormone bonding hormone. Yeah. Sexual orgasm, friendship, mother, baby. So that that receptor gene, like, if you have a certain code for it, you are optimistic. And what I learned was it's you're not screwed if you're not born with it. Yes, you have a natural tendency for pessimism. Yes, you will naturally have a tendency for depression. So that's helpful to know that like, oh, I might be hardwired this, but this is why I then went on this mission of like, I need to write a book, I need to understand, I need to go deep in the research, is that even if you aren't born with that gene, you can act like an optimist. And that's what practical optimism is about, is acting like one. Because those genes actually coded for specific skills of community building, asking for support, having a positive mindset, coping mechanisms, being able to like, you know, regulate your emotions. And that's what I did as a therapist. And I'm like, oh my God, I'm already doing so many of these skills. I didn't realize that I was actually helping people, people become optimistic. I thought it was just helping getting them like undepressed. So you're right, there are going to be people who are skewed. But like those glass half empty types be like, you know what, like there's something you can do. You can actually practice not only looking at things in a certain way, but then doing things differently as well.

[Vivian Tu]

I love that we got to talk.

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[Vivian Tu]

You talk about, you know, helping people practice optimism instead of just being un. Depressed. What is the difference? You have a book coming out. It' Practical Optimism.

[Dr. Sue Varma]

What.

[Vivian Tu]

What is the difference between that? Practical optimism versus just the traditional or colloquial definition of optimism?

[Dr. Sue Varma]

Yes. So the traditional definition is like what we call like dispositional optimism that you're born with it and you're, you naturally have it. And we all know people who are just like, no, don't worry about it, you know, just look on the right side. And you know, part of that can get really annoying because you're like, I'm so happy for you that that's how you see the world. It's like always work out. And actually that is the definition is someone who imagines the best possible outcome. Almost always. Of course, optimists have, believe it or not, Vivian, an equal number of negative life events and stressors as pessimists. So it's not like the pessimists have had a harder life. Right? Like I'm not putting aside trauma, right. Putting aside those who went through maybe like the big T of trauma. Right? Like life threatening events. Right. The little T are the everyday hassles. All of us, optimist, pessimism, we all have the same number. The difference is that optimists just envision the best possible outcome. And the beauty is when you envision the best possible outcome. Outcome, you're more likely to achieve it. Why?

[Unknown]

Really?

[Dr. Sue Varma]

Because you're taking steps towards it. Yep.

[Vivian Tu]

Okay, so wait, sorry, can you explain that a little bit more?

[Dr. Sue Varma]

Yeah. So when you're envisioning the best possible outcome, right. This is not. I'm not talking about magical thinking, right. I'm not talking about the dulu. Like, you're not crazy. You're actually working towards your implementing. And that's what the. These eight steps of practical optimism about is. Like, it starts out with their eight P's. It starts out with having a purpose. So you get really focused, you get really deliberate and intentional. The purpose can be capital P in like, what's my purpose in life? Or it could be my. What's my purpose for you, Vivian? And like, okay, with this book sales thing, right? Like with the book launch, like, what's my purpose? And getting very specific about wanting a specific outcome. And then you follow this trajectory of all the other P's of like, okay, if I get really upset and if I need to regulate my emotions. So processing the emotions and problem solving. So then it gives you eight steps towards that, getting really present, developing proficiency, which is self efficacy, like your belief and your confidence in your ability, abilities, not your actual abilities. And then the last P is practicing healthy habits which lead to like, longer life, but not just longer life, but healthier life. So the difference is like regular optimism is like, oh, do you see the glass half full? Oh, not, you know, and then it just leaves you right there. No, I don't. And it's like, okay, then what? Versus practical optimism says, don't worry, I got you, bestie. As Vivian would say, I got your back. I got a plan for you. We got a plan. And then it outlines the steps of, like, from, let's go from here to there. And like, that's something I realized when I was working with patients. I didn't want to just get them under press, right? Because like, that is kind of what you go to a doctor for. Like, your doctor, if your elbow or your shoulder is fractured, they're going to put you in a cast and their, their hope is to get you back to baseline, Right? But what if your baseline sucked? What if you were like, yeah, sedentary, didn't play sports, and they're not going to turn you into like a tennis pro. And like forehand and backhand, like, that's not their job. They're like, you came in with something broken. If you're lucky at best. After surgery and physical therapy, maybe you'll return to like 70% of normal of your normal, your baseline. And that's not what I wanted to do for my patients in the psychiatry realm, right? I wanted to like, yes, find out what their baseline was, take them back to that if that's what they wanted. But I wanted to take them beyond because. And that's where the optimism comes in, is helping a person thrive, living in their best life zone, not just their baseline zone, because their baseline probably got them to where they are in the depression right now. Because they probably were not taking care of themselves. They weren't seeing people in real life life. I call them the four M's of mental health that you like. Daily habits that a person can do every day, Mindfulness, movement, mastery and meaningful engagement. So that's just one example. But like I'll do an inventory on a person to be like, tell me about every aspect of your life. What is your friendships look like, what does your relationship with your parents look like, what does your diet look like, what does your exercise habit look like? What does your work look like? What does your out of work mastery like, what are you working on for yourself? Development legs. And so they're like, I got more than I bargained for because I just came in with a depression and I just thought you were just going to make me like not sad anymore. But I was like, no, I want you to thrive. And so they get more than they bargain for. And that's where there's like a little bit of a coaching element, you know. And I just felt like traditional therapy in the way that I was trained just didn't prepare me for like helping people thrive. Because that's what western medicine does, right? It just fixes what's broken. And it's very disease focused, unfortunately. And this is looking at practical optimism, combines illness and disease based thinking, but also strength based thinking so that it's got you, it can protect you, it can help you when you're really down. So if you're depressed, I'm not going to tell a person, stop going to therapy. I'm going to say keep going to therapy, but use this book for life. You know, I got a book when I was like 16, a friend gave me, it's called wherever you go, there you are by Jon Kabat Zinn. And I've literally kept it by my bedside and just read a couple of pages whenever I need it. So it helps you when you're really down, but then it helps you Maintain feeling really good. And then it helps you thrive, to take it to whatever your life goal is, you know, and you're living it like, like you're such a great life role model and example for people to. To thrive. I mean, I know right now you're going through a lot of stress and it's hard. It's hard. Even if you're an optimistic person in the midst of challenge, it's normal for all of us to have the self doubt, to have all of those fears, but it's really supposed to help you, support you at every level.

[Vivian Tu]

Yeah. So, okay, I'm going to definitely take advantage of the fact that I have you right now and get some free therapy. So, like, you mentioned my book. You know, I just launched it and. And starting Friday, I'm actually going on tour. Well, I guess by the time this episode releases, I'll have already been on tour, but tour is going to be a little crazy. I'm in a different city every single day. I have a live show. I've never done a live show before. I'm obviously a little bit stressed about that. I've done the prep work, I have the outline, I have all these things, but are there. You know, you mentioned the four M's, but like, what are three or four actionable pieces of advice that you have for me on the road in a strange, random city hotel that I probably don't know that well? That's not true. A couple of cities, like, are like second homes to me. But even so, like, what can I do to, like, maintain my sanity, but also, like, make sure that I don't burn out and don't feel really sad about the whole process.

[Dr. Sue Varma]

Yes. So, you know, so it's very interesting because burnout, when we look at it, there's like a couple of main features. One is like, cynicism. So I'm so glad you used that word because it's this idea of like, everything I'm doing, like, is it going to be for not. Is it going to. Is it going to have impact?

[Vivian Tu]

Oh, my God. I think that all the time, Sue. Really, all the time, I'm like, oh, my gosh, what if this is like, for nothing?

[Dr. Sue Varma]

It's not for nothing, you know, because. Because Vivian, I can just tell you, you bring so much hope to people. You give. You give people choices, you give people action, actionable steps. You're so authentic and so real. And I think that people connect with you with your humor, with your vulnerability, and they see, like, how hard you work. I see how Hard you work. So I feel like the cynicism, self, like, impact, right? So that's part of burnout. Like, it's exhaustion, it's feeling tired. So I'll tell you tips for that in a second. But it's feeling like, does my work have any meaning? Does it have any impact? Like, what am I doing this for? Is it gonna. So I feel like one of the things I learned when I was growing up and I struggled with this, I grew up in, in an Indian family and in the Bhagavad Gita, there's these Sanskrit verses and it says, don't be attached to the fruits of your laboratory labor. Like, do your duty for the sake of it. And whatever happens, like, it's kind of like icing on the cake. And that's so hard because in Western culture, we're ambitious, we work hard, we. We want a specific outcome. And if you're, like, very numbers oriented, you. You're going to judge your success by, I don't know how many. Right. Like, how many books are sold. So it's really hard to, to separate that and to not consider yourself like a failure if you didn't meet that goal. And especially if you're high, high, high achieving people are very hard on themselves, as, you know. Right. And relentless in their expectations. So I think, you know, being able to separate and say, if I can appreciate that this journey that I'm. You're giving so much hope and meaning to people because you're like, this girl is a badass. Like, she's doing like a multi. Like, you're like Taylor Swift of the money world, you know, like, you're going.

[Vivian Tu]

Oh, my gosh, that's so generous.

[Dr. Sue Varma]

Like, you're going on tour. Like, people are at home, Vivian. They're like in their sweats. They're like, like, I just want to, you know, sit here and watch rerun of Friends or like, I don't know, whatever. And you're taking the show on the road, right? Like, you're not you. You're entertaining people from home that they can scroll, but then they can see you in real person, like, in real life. And like, if, like when people, like, look up to you, they're. They're going to want to meet you, they're going to want a piece of you in person. So they're going to be so grateful. So, like, recognizing, envisioning the best possible outcome. Are you going to be signing books? I imagine.

[Vivian Tu]

Yeah.

[Dr. Sue Varma]

Yeah. So those. I know it's going to be exhausting. So I'm going to get to the exhaustion, but just knowing, envisioning the best possible outcome. So think of like your perfect day if you have such an option. Like, so I always say, like, having the end in mind and then working backwards to be like, what would that perfect day do? I have time for great cup of coffee by myself in the morning. So this is where I want the rest to come in. And I just. It came. It was in the New York Times yesterday. I talked about Oasis moments. That New York Times is a six day energy challenge, how to get more energy. And. And I helped them kick it off by talking about Oasis moments, which are basically just five minutes and it can be anywhere. Like, you could have music, but you don't have to. But it's the idea of just getting very intentional with your time, shutting the world out. And this part didn't make it into the New York Times because they wanted to keep it briefer. But I, in that exercise that I had originally given them, it was like, okay, see yourself, close your eyes. Envision a problem. Be very specific. How does a problem make you feel? Tell me, like, where do you feel it? In your chest? Are you clenching your jaw? Shoulders? Relax, all of that? And then envision a path to the outcome and imagine yourself. And Vivian, if you want, when you're done, do this. You know you have five minutes later in the day. Yeah. Close your eyes and envision this path and tell me what this path looks like. Is it straight? Does it twist? Does it turn? Is it windy? And then envision the best possible outcome. So what, what is that for you, Vivian? Like, if you have one of your tour dates, what is your best? What does that look like? Tell me, like, what do you imagine if everything worked out? Out?

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[Vivian Tu]

If I had my exact way, this tour stop would be totally sold out. You know, it would be a packed house. I would put on a show that, you know, people laughed at my corny jokes and clapped for me when appropriate. And when we turned it over to the audience Q and A, I got really vulnerable stories, really insightful questions that applied to more than just one person. And I answered them in a way that I could personally feel really proud of and feel like I was helping people. And then once the show is over, you know, big applause and we go to the meet and greet. I'm signing books, giving hugs, shaking hands, you know, taking photos. And I want everyone to walk away from this event feeling like it was money well spent and time well spent.

[Dr. Sue Varma]

That's amazing. And like, I was so beautifully and succinctly put, and that's exactly what you would do in this exercise and you've done it, is envision the best possible outcome. And I want you to feel the feeling. So how are you feeling? Like, let's just say you're coming off of this high and me and you are talking and I'm like, how are you feeling right now? Like this. You've had this incredible day. Everyone's cheering for you, they're hugging you, they're signing, they're like, thank you so much for coming out here. This means so much to us. We've been following you forever and you just gave me hope and I feel like I've been your friend. You helped me get through years and years. I was struggling financially. I've made some better decisions because of you. Thank you so much. So I'm talking to you now. How do you feel?

[Vivian Tu]

I feel warm. Like there's like this almost like internal glow that happens and I know that's not like an emotion, but it's like this, like, it's almost like I feel how the color gold looks.

[Dr. Sue Varma]

Wow. That's radiant. It's brilliant. Yeah, that's beautiful. Yeah, that's beautiful. So hold on to that. That, that will be your, your imagery when you closed your eyes. Eyes. Right. Like, I just want you to feel that warmth and that radiance and you're emanating that. So I want you to envision that, that I am up here on stage. In your moments of feeling tired, of self doubt, close your eyes and feel that warmth. Allow yourself to get enveloped with that warmth and that radiance and say, you know, that's what I'm here to do. I have a mission, I have a purpose. I'm, I'm providing knowledge, wisdom, compassion and hope. Hope in what I'm doing.

[Vivian Tu]

I really like that exercise.

[Dr. Sue Varma]

Thank you. Like, you're providing, you're, it's a, you're providing a service that's really needed and it's, it goes beyond Vivian, like your book, because I think we need, we need people to look up to. We need hope, we need that to know that there's good in the world, that we need to know that people care for us. Like, it's, it's very clear that you're doing what you're doing more than just, it's more than just about you and your brand. You know what I'm saying? Like, it's not, it's, it doesn't come across as self serving. It comes across as like, I know information that can change your life. So please listen to me, you know.

[Vivian Tu]

Yeah.

[Dr. Sue Varma]

And I think that if you can see it from that point of view that the end in mind is you've provided service and, and people's lives are going to be changed and different because of you and that you already have impacted them and they're coming out to meet you. So if you look at, from it, from that point of view, regardless, I mean, I'm sure things will be sold out. I'm sure the book is going to do great. I'm sure people are going to read it. But that middle part of your labor, you know, all of that is the fruits of the labor, but the work that you're doing, the meaning and the impact is right there.

[Vivian Tu]

Yeah, that actually makes me feel a lot better. Like I feel really reassured by you saying that. And now I see why people, people love coming to you. That, that did make me feel really good. Definitely less sad, but also, you know, with a very bright view towards the future.

[Dr. Sue Varma]

No, because you know what, Vivian, like I can say this to you because it's never a one size Fits all approach, right? Like, I can say to you, because I followed you work, right? And I know how hard you work and I can see the impact that you're having, right? If it was someone else, I wouldn't just say it's all going to work out, right? I would then say to them, let's say you, we met, I don't know, five, 10 years ago and you're like, I have a vision, right? Let's say I didn't know anything about you and whenever you started, let's say we met at that point, then it would be a different conversation. Then it would be like, all right, what are you going to do to get your ducks in the row? And like, how are you going to execute and implement, right? So it would never just be like, you're going to do great, pet you on the back and then move you along your way. I know you've come this far. The book is already out, right? It's already doing great. So that's why I can say what I say, which is at this point the focus isn't on like what needs to be done. It's more on how you feel and so that you can be calm. And I want you to get as much rest as possible. I know that sounds crazy, but like whenever, even if it's like a room. One thing I did, I gave a big keynote speech recently and they had me do press interviews right before I was going to go on and give this like 60 minute talk and like no slides and like everything had to be memorized. And I look back and I'm like, I think things could have been a little bit different because I felt, felt tired. Like giving what felt like a speech was like there were multiple press, like coming from different directions. So just looking at your schedule and be like, does this make sense? How do I get quiet in the room beforehand? And. And it's okay to say, like, listen, do you mind if I just take a few minutes? And even if you can't meet up with people in those cities, like, I don't know if you had planned to, you know, see those. You said second home, you know, second homes to you. So being very intentional about the rest, that's going to be key, key in this tour that you're doing, I'm gonna.

[Vivian Tu]

Have to schedule in time to rest. It's a tough one.

[Dr. Sue Varma]

And not just sleep, but like daytime rest, which is what I talked about in this well known for New York Times, is these oasis moments, which you can do anywhere, like on your flight or on the bus or whatever, closing your eyes and just saying, like, I've done my work. You know, like in medical school, we would take a billion exams and always, like the day before, I'm somebody who would just, like, have fun, you know, I'd be like, I've done my duty with it. I'm not gonna cram. Like, I'm gonna go out, I'm gonna see a movie. Like, I'm gonna go out to eat, eat. I'm going to relax. And that. I always felt like there was something to be said about that. Because if you had truly done the work, because I had friends who, like, would always party and it was not until the last minute. Like that expression, if it wasn't until the last minute, nothing would get done there. That was different. I would always try to do work in advance so that I could relax. And what it would signal to me is, I'm ready. It signals, hey, you're taking a day off before the exam. You must be done, you know. And the confidence, this is what I talk about in the book, is a proficiency, self efficacy. It's your confidence in your ability, abilities. It's not your actual abilities, which you have tons of. Vivian. So the confidence is in the confidence, the recharging, the rest. That's all that's needed right now. It's minimal.

[Vivian Tu]

So I do want to pivot really quick to a different topic. I have no idea what the source is from, but I read somewhere that this research team did a study where they were showing photos of rich people and people who grew up low income and essentially having a group of. Of all different walks of, like, people of all different walks of life. So maybe they themselves had a lot of money or didn't or whatever. But people were actually able to identify the people who grew up who with means versus those who did not. Because the people who had money, even with their resting face, when they weren't smiling, they looked happier. And my question for you is, one, is that true? And two, like, how do you think optimism and money, well, wealth, finance are related.

[Dr. Sue Varma]

It's so interesting, you know, the relationship between optimism and wealth is that optimistic people, and I want to be careful in how I phrase this because there's a dangerous type of optimism. And we call that the ostrich effect, where you're just burying your head in the sand and you're like, everything will be fine. And this is the person who's got cancer and is like, no, I'm not going to go for chemotherapy. It'll just disappear by itself. Right. Or like the doctor was like, oh, there's something concerning on your annual exam. So there are a subset of people who, or excessively like toxic optimism where they bury their head in the sand. So that's not what I'm talking about. And the other, on the other hand, pessimists are actually more realistic and are more accurate in their assessments. But optimism is linked to more wealth, more productivity, more likability in the job, more engagement in the job. They have better bonuses because from every, from every perspective they're team players, they're giving, they ask questions, they don't stop. They work towards taking chances and risks and they see things through. Whereas a pessimist might say, you know, this is never going to work out. Why would I take this business opportunity? I don't trust anyone. This person is coming to me, they can't be trusted. And, and I get it, like we should be like a little bit vigilant, do our due diligence, ask questions, do the research. But pessimists never make it that far because they write off tons of opportunities. They won't ask for the promotion because they think that they won't get it. So there's so many. It's not just woo, woo. Like that's why when I said to you like practical having positive outlets look actually leads to positive outcomes. It's because of all the things in between, which is the risk taking, the doing the research, the asking for the help, the being more personable, more affable. You know, optimists have longer lasting friendships. They're more likely to have friendships from childhood. They're more likely to have more number of friends than pessimists do. So I definitely see the connection and that's like, you know, kind of well known, the optimism and wealth. And then your question about in terms of like looking at people's faces, that's very interesting to that you can see who's had money and I wonder if you know that there's a certain amount of struggle that we wear on our faces, you know, or confidence, you know, of like things are going to be okay. And I've had money my whole life and like so that, that's very unique to me that they can judge just by assuming that everything else in the picture was the same. Right? Like dress and.

[Vivian Tu]

Yeah, yeah, no, it was just like neck up so like you couldn't see like clothes or like car or like anything like that. That it was literally just a bot. I remember reading about this in like my like one of my College psych classes that I took, they would basically, like, just do a frame of the person's face, and you could tell based on their faces. People at varying ages, people at varying genders, colors, whatever. Like, you could tell who had money and who didn't. And I thought that was crazy.

[Dr. Sue Varma]

Yes. And it was like, the people who had money that were more accurate in being able to pick others who had money.

[Vivian Tu]

No, I don't. I don't know if that was ever a finding. Just that I thought it was interesting that even without any other, like, socioeconomic indicators, like how they dress, maybe their hairstyle, anything like that, like, you could just look at this part. And we're not talking about people who had, like, a ton of plastic surgery or, like, Botox and, like, stuff like that done, but, like, you know, just looking at someone's natural resting face and being able to tell if they've had an easy or a hard life, basically.

[Dr. Sue Varma]

Yeah, yeah. Yes. Totally. Totally. That's fascinating, and I can see that. I mean, I think. I think there's something to be said there. But, you know, I also want to caution people to say that, like, a little bit of struggle is good, you know, just a little bit. That there, you know, the whole thing about pressure, making diamonds, like, we don't need to have that much pressure, because I think that, you know, like, when we. Just looking at the word stress, like. Vivian, what comes to your mind when I say stress?

[Vivian Tu]

What do you think of feeling like, I have so much work that I don't have enough hours in the day to get it done?

[Dr. Sue Varma]

Yes. So there's, like, a negative connotation associated with it. But the interesting thing is stress in itself, it doesn't tell us anything. It just means that there is a load on the system. But what is that load? It could be a good load, Right. It could be like a birthday party that you're planning that you're really excited about. It could be a promotion that you wanted. Right. So when it comes to stress, we actually have to qualify because there's two different terms. You stress, EU stress. It's one word. Or distress and eustress. Or positive things and distress are like, the negative. Either something negative happening or just too many, maybe positive things all happening at the same time that are making it very difficult or challenging. Like, if you're juggling, okay, there's like, you know, a wedding, there's a funeral that you have to plant. There's like, 10 different things, some good, some bad, but the quantity is too much, or that your Coping mechanisms. The inside can't match with what's going on in the outside. And that's why, like, two different people can handle the same situation very differently based on their coping mechanisms, past experiences, past trauma, whatever. But I think that we just put such a negative connot on stress or hardship. And when I think about like my own life and we don't have time to get into it, but like, you know, from a very young age, my parents had told me, like, you know, I'm sharing this because this, you're the money person. You know, my parents told me at 11, they were like, you know, if you're going to want money, you're going to have to work for it. And like, I got my first job at 11 and then worked my entire life, like, worked, paid my way through college, medical school, tons of debt, you know, and paid it all off. And it was like, significant, you know. And I think about, I'm like, when I look back, I joke with my dad. I was like, why? You know, I was living in New York City and I moved at 16 to go to college. I'd skip my senior year. And I remember just like being broke like always, but like always having four jobs, being pre med, working 40 hours a week. And I was like, why did you do that to me? Like, you could have afforded to like, help. We have these conversations now and he's like, sue, you wouldn't be the person you are today if I had just handed you things. And it makes sense to me because I look back and I'm like, I look at all the hardship and I met so many interesting people through those jobs. I got to know New York City, every different corner from, you know, the tip of the, you know, the bottom to the top and, and all of that hardship. I do think that because I don't come with a sense of entitlement, I'm not expecting things to work out, but not in a pessimistic way. I'm just like, if it works out, great. But I also know that I've had the best four years of my life, let's say in undergrad when I was like broke and in medical school and I traveled and, you know, I just. So my point is that I think a little bit of hardship and stress teaches you that it's okay, have delayed gratification. And I feel like that's the biggest thing that's missing when we talk about like a mental health crisis in young people today is that we are flashing images of like, you want this? Except not giving Them context of, you know, the broken. You know, I loved your video, by the way, on Kim Kit. You were talking about the $185,000.

[Vivian Tu]

Yeah, yeah.

[Dr. Sue Varma]

And you're like, for context and for perspective, if that is less than 0.1% whatever of her income, them. And I love that because we're seeing images and young people wanting luxury items without knowing the context of how hard. Even someone like, you know, the Kardashians and, like, how the joke is. Like, she's like, nobody wants to work. And, you know, there's something to that. Like, maybe not that harsh, but there's truth to the fact that, like, yeah, none of it's great if you have a trust fund, but it's okay to struggle as well.

[Vivian Tu]

Can I ask you, do you think you can buy happiness? I feel like I want to hear your opinion on this question. Question.

[Dr. Sue Varma]

So first I would say define happiness.

[Vivian Tu]

I knew you're gonna flip this question back on me. I don't know. I feel like I would just. I like. I mean it in the most traditional sense of, like, how this question is normally asked. Like, does money buy happiness? I think, like, happiness is basically feeling like all of your needs are met and, you know, you have joy for the primary, like, the vast majority of your life. Life. I would say, like, good, positive feelings about your life.

[Dr. Sue Varma]

Yes. So I love that. And I love. And so what I would just say is separate happiness from joy because you can have good, positive feelings about your life. Because happiness, the way that I understand it, have come to understand it, is. It's a little bit more fleeting, and it's often related to external means. So, like, if I have money, I'm happy. If I don't, I'm not happy. Or external achievement, validation, external success. Whereas joy is something that you cultivate inside through meaning and through purpose. Did I give? Did I have impact? Did I make people around me happy? Do I feel loved? Do I feel like I matter? Do I feel like I belong? But even if we're just trying to keep it really simple, happiness, I think, buys convenience, which is really important. It buys options. It can create agency. Because I'm just thinking about, like, if you don't have money, you might be stuck in a relationship, whether it's a child, depending on a parent or depending on a spouse. You're dependent. You don't have freedom. You don't have authenticity. You don't have agency. And so that's where I feel like, the simplest way that money gives power through options. I don't have to be in this relationship, I don't have to live in this way. The other thing is that money buys is healthcare, right? And it can buy you. That's the difference between life and death. It can buy you a gym membership, buy you a personal trainer. It can buy you nutritious, healthier foods because we know that those are more expensive. It can buy you childcare, it buys you time. And if you asked me the one thing that I want to translate my money into right now, it's in time. Like, you know, a friend of mine came the other day and it's our, you know, summer home and she was staying with her family and she's got a bunch of kids and she's like, I. We're making such a mess. Like, you know, like, what can we do? Can we give you money? And I'm like, I don't need money right now. I need time. Because I was in the middle of my writing my book and I was like, I want to buy. How can I buy time? You know? And so I was like, don't worry, I'm going to use. Like, you're my guest, so don't worry about it. But she wanted to contribute in some way. I'm like, I'm going to use my money to get a cleaner, you know, because, like, growing up, I was very much of this idea that, like, I had to do everything myself. And so the idea, like, getting a cleaner as, like, we didn't have one as a kid, like, I was the cleaner because my parents would be like, you want money? Like, clean the house and, you know, do the. And I know people have ideas about that, like, you shouldn't make. Pay your kids for chores. But that was the only way there was ever going to be money, like an allowance. It was like, you know, before we could get a job outside side at 14. So, you know, to me those were luxuries. And time is time affluence. And I talk about that in the book, that that's the most important thing. So I feel like if I'm going to spend money, if I have a choice between, you know, a bag or spending money, you know, I. Ideally, you want to be in a place where you can do both. I want to buy the bag and I do that and I want to be able to afford help. But if I had to pick, my money always goes to experiences because I feel like those are the things that last the most. So my husband, when I was dating him, we were in medical school, bought me a bag that at that time I thought was very expensive. And I didn't feel right. To me, I said to him, all I really want is a trip to go with my girlfriend, you know, to Miami. And so he was, I was like, can you return the bag? And I'm like, the ticket was half the price of the bag, you know, and, and for that, for us, it was a lot of money back then, you know, And I was like, I feel bad. I wanted to. I was like, I feel weird having a bag that's more expensive than the money I actually have. Have to put in the bag. You know, I'm like, so that's weird. Like you're walking around with it with a bag that, that you have no business because you don't actually have the money in it. Like, I'm like, that doesn't make any sense to me. And what I want is experiences. And he's like, you're weird. He's like, I'll get you both. I was like, no, I don't, I, you know, and so that's something I struggle with, is like accepting gifts and allowing people to spoil me because, like, I, I didn't grow up being spoiled. So like, I just have thing in my mind that maybe it's an immigrant, like my parents are immigrants, I was born here. That mentality. But, but anyway, so for me, experience, if I had a choice, I would always choose to do that. So in terms of money buying happiness, it can buy options and choice and time. And if that brings you happiness and experiences, then I would, then I would say yes.

[Vivian Tu]

I like that. Okay, so to kind of wrap us up a little bit here, I feel like, you know, like we talked about, in talking about mental health, I feel like the idea of like optimism and positivity and like mindfulness has really taken off in the last decade or so. And you know, talking to you, obviously so much of it is steeped in science and psychology and legitimate science, but there's a lot of naysayers out there calling it woo woo and you know, calling it fake and, you know, fairy dust, what have you. What's your take and what, like, how would you address that?

[Dr. Sue Varma]

Yeah, so, you know, I was interviewed a few years ago about like manifesting and I was like asked like, you know, like, similar question. Do you believe in it? And I would say if you're willing to not only put out positive energy out in the world and envision a best possible outcome, but you're willing to work for it. There's nothing to me about that because that is the prescription for success is you have to first envision the best possible outcome. Have the best possible outcome and the end in mind. And then work backwards and say how do I actually do that? To me that is super realistic. And then to also look at and anticipate obstacles. So whether it's like something really simple like starting a new habit, like an exercise habit. Okay, well what would get in the way? Oh well you know, I need a, you know the distance. Like if someone's like my, my gym is actually like an hour away. That's never going to happen. Right. So yeah, plan for that to say I have to pick something's closer or if it's 5am and guess what, you're not a morning person. That's not happening. You know, or childcare, like I gotta pick up my kid from school. That's not happening. So envisioning all of those things and then like solving for them. But I'm so like this book, I, it's 300 something pages. I think I'd write written 3,000. I like four years of my life like hiding in a basement, locking myself up. I have two kids. Like I have a full time job, I'm doing tv, I teach. I did not have time doing this. I like literally because I was doing so much research. Anything I said, every sentence in that book is backed up with at least 10, 10 articles in JAMA and like internal, you know, medicine, neuroscience. So I'm a hundred percent skeptic of anything that's like, you know, woo, woo. So there's not nothing in here that I wouldn't recommend that I actually haven't worked, seen work with my patients in my own life or you know, deep in the science. But there really is like optimism is like you can actually see and functional, functional MRIs different areas of the brain light up with optimism and pessimism. So you can ask someone to envision something good happening, happening like something like imagine like the best possible thing happening either in your life or somebody else's or envision something really bad. And you can see different neural circuitry light up in the brain and specifically like in the frontal lobes. Like people who are very pessimistic. There's a lot of ruminating or something called the default mode network where your mind is just like excessively wandering. So there's certain key, like neural, what they call neural signatures that happen in the brain and people who are pessimistic have a certain, certain like mindset. But you can also see by functional imaging that play out in the brain so that to me, that's very fascinating. And also that these genes predict a certain outcome. So like we were talking about the oxytocin receptor gene. If you have a variant of it, you're more likely to be depressed. So there's actual science behind optimism and pessimism and that studies show that optimists live longer. I mean, you can't beat that, right? They live on average like 10 to 15% longer. Exceptional longevity, which is like good health in your 80s. They have less heart attacks, they have less strokes, they have less death from all causes. And a big part of that is giving back and purpose. And people who have, who volunteer and give back to the community live longer. So there's tons of science in, in terms of like, from the health perspective, from friendships perspective, from partner perspective, optimists tend to have like longer and stronger marital relationships. Relationships because they're more likely to give the other person the benefit of the doubt. They're more likely to feel supported. If you feel supported by someone, you're more likely to get that support because you're telling them you're doing such a great job. Thank you so much. I mean, obviously if they're a shitty partner, you want to work on that. Go to couples therapy, go to your own therapy. So it's, it's not just about saying like you're amazing and meanwhile like they're treating you horribly. But it's, it is about giving people the benefit of the doubt and then also optimize. Optimists know they're realistic. They know when to leave. Right. They know what they're worth and they know that if they're not being treated properly in any scenario, they're going to ask for better. And that's the key thing is like it teaches you. Practical optimism is how to be the best advocate for yourself in every arena of life.

[Vivian Tu]

Love it. Thank you so much for being here with us today. You are a wealth of knowledge and I feel like I've personally learned so much. Your new book, Practical optimism comes out February 20th of this. Where can readers expect to find it? Where can they find you? Tell us everything.

[Dr. Sue Varma]

Yes, so you can buy the book wherever it's sold and if you pre order it now, you can get tons of pre order incentives. But Amazon, Penguin, Random House, Barnes and Nobles everywhere and people can find me on instagram. So I'm Dr. Sue Varma. The word doctor written out. D O C T O R Sue Varma and then also my website and I have blogs all about all sorts of different things, things holiday stress, habits, intrusive thoughts, everything that you can imagine. So I hope that I get to keep in touch with your listeners and with you. Vivian. I'm so excited for you and your book launch and I want to hear when you come back, how did it go? Did you. Did you feel like gold? Were you getting wrapped up and doing the exercise? I want to hear all about it, so thank you. And I and I love everything that you do and I hope and I and I know that people will get value, but I hope that everyone comes out and, you know, droves and it's a splashing sensation that I know it will be. But I hope that everything comes exactly how you want it.

[Vivian Tu]

Thank you so much.

[Dr. Sue Varma]

You're the best.

[Vivian Tu]

And thank you so much for being here with me.

[Dr. Sue Varma]

Thank you.

[Vivian Tu]

Thanks for tuning in to this week's.

[Unknown]

Episode of Net Worth and Chill. If you like this episode, make sure to leave a rating and a review and subscribe so you never miss an episode.

[Vivian Tu]

Got a financial question you want answered? In the future, you can leave me a voicemail or text me at 908-858-3410. Make sure to follow me at your rich BFF across social media for even.

[Unknown]

More relatable financial content. Special thanks to my team at AudioBoom as well as Range Media and WME. See you next week.

[Dr. Sue Varma]

Bye.