← Networth and Chill with Your Rich BFF
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- [00:00]
Tori Dunlap
I am somebody who was so sick and tired of men I didn't respect telling me what to do. Like I was sick of that. My first corporate job. I'm 22 and I'm like, is this what I'm doing for the next 35 years is making somebody I don't respect richer? No, thank you. Can you imagine being in a situation where you don't have access to money? You might not even make money. Your money's controlled. You get an allowance from your partner. When you have money, your entire life changes. Foreign.
- [00:34]
Vivian Tu
What's up rich friends? Welcome back to another episode of Net Worth and Chill with me, your host, Vivian Tu, AKA your rich BFF and your favorite Wall street girly. And you know, when I first started your rich BFF back in 2021, I went on what I can only describe as a full blown mission to stop the spread of absolutely horrific financial information and advice I was seeing plastered all over tikt. And let me tell you, it was bad, bad, bad. We're talking about people promoting literal get rich quick schemes suggesting you put your rent money into meme coins. And don't even get me started on the financial gurus telling college students to max out their credit cards to buy crypto. It was giving me actual shivers as someone who spent years on Wall street watching real people lose money following terrible advice. But here's the thing. I certainly wasn't the only one seeing this absolute carnage of misinformation floating around social media. While I was over here having daily panic about the financial guru industrial complex destroying people's lives, there were other incredible creators out there fighting the good fight too. And that's exactly why I'm so excited about today's conversation. My guest today is a fellow content creator, author of the New York Times bestselling book Financial Feminist, and host of the chart topping financial feminist podcast. Everyone, please welcome Tori Dunlap.
- [01:51]
Tori Dunlap
Hi. Happy to be here.
- [01:53]
Vivian Tu
Thank you so much for joining me. And before we get into everything, you are obviously a financial creator online. And much like myself, I want to know what is one bad financial habit you still have? Support for Net Worth and Chill comes from Adobe. Planning your finances means taking a realistic picture of your life as it is now and where you want to be. But you also got to plan for the unexpected because life happens and you need to be able to edit, adapt and collaborate with others to reach your goals. Adobe gets that, which is why they made a tool that's just as flexible PDF Spaces and Acrobat Studio. Your PDF files are no Longer static. Instead, they're living documents that flex with you and your project's needs. Learn more@adobe.com do that with Acrobat.
- [02:36]
Tori Dunlap
Oh, I'm at the point where I don't have to look at my money as much. And you get to that point when you have all of your ducks in a row and you have your plan in place and your automations. But there are some times where I find subscriptions six months after and I'm like, shit, I've been paying for that for how long? And so multi millionaires do it too. Everybody. It's like, I just. I sometimes don't look.
- [03:01]
Vivian Tu
Okay, so the pitfall is the subscriptions that you forget to cancel.
- [03:05]
Tori Dunlap
Yes. But I want to watch Moulin Rouge. They make me sign up for stars. I forget to cancel. I'm like, fuck, I don't have a DVD player anymore. Who does? But I'm like, I have it on dvd.
- [03:15]
Vivian Tu
What is something you spend your money on now these days as a millionaire? Yeah, that feels really worth it.
- [03:21]
Tori Dunlap
Oh, I like a good hotel. I think you and I are probably similar in that I am less of a designer girly than I think you are. Like, I am. I'm wearing a Chanel belt. It's one of three designer things I own. I find it. I'm so hard on my stuff that it for me, it doesn't feel worth it. But, like, somebody's gonna take care of me for a week and, like, clean up after me twice a day. Oh, it's like the height of luxury.
- [03:46]
Vivian Tu
It really is.
- [03:46]
Tori Dunlap
I just like, I wanna be surrounded and down comforter cocoons. Yes. Big fan of that.
- [03:51]
Vivian Tu
I also love not just like a room, but like a standalone villa with a little pool.
- [03:57]
Tori Dunlap
Sure.
- [03:57]
Vivian Tu
Little pool. Because you know what I like to do? This is like my secret.
- [04:01]
Tori Dunlap
Do you go skinny dipping at night? Great.
- [04:04]
Vivian Tu
I go skinny dipping at night when no one can see.
- [04:06]
Tori Dunlap
Yes.
- [04:06]
Vivian Tu
And it's literally the best.
- [04:07]
Tori Dunlap
Yeah. That's incredible. And I love it when I even get to do it on credit card points. Because even sometimes I'll look and I'm like, you want $900 a night for me to sleep? And then I go to my credit card portal and I'm like, great, I can do this for free. I love that.
- [04:20]
Vivian Tu
But let's go back to the beginning now.
- [04:21]
Tori Dunlap
Yes.
- [04:22]
Vivian Tu
Growing up, did your family talk about money? Was there a money doesn't grow on trees lecture that you got or. We don't discuss finances at the dinner table.
- [04:32]
Tori Dunlap
I was very unique in the fact that I had a great financial education from my parents, where I had parents who educated me about money, who sat down with me, and they're like, here's how a credit card works, and here's how to not overspend. And if you want something, you have to save for it. And I thought that was normal. I thought, okay, everybody knows not to overspend, and everybody knows how to save. And it was because my parents didn't grow up with a lot. And so they were like, we want the generational gap to be filled. We want to be able to provide her with good money knowledge. And then I graduated college or really got into college.
- [05:06]
Vivian Tu
Do you have siblings growing up?
- [05:07]
Tori Dunlap
I'm an only.
- [05:08]
Vivian Tu
Me too.
- [05:09]
Tori Dunlap
I know. I think. I think it the. The influencer only. Only child to influencer pipeline is strong. Like, I'm like, attention. Oh, my God. Nobody look at me. Don't make me sing. So I think that I got to college and started having conversations about money and how much college cost and all of those things, and I was like, oh, I know a lot more about money. And I just thought that was normal. And you and I are both the same age. I graduated college in 2016. I know you did too. And, you know, I was coming into an America where we thought we'd have our first female president. And of course, that's not what happened. And I was the friend all of my friends were coming to for advice around money. And I also realized in my own life, when I had money, I had options. When I had money, I had the ability to leave a bad job, leave a toxic relationship, donate to causes I believed in. And I thought, okay, we don't have any sort of equality for any marginalized group until we have financial equality. So started her first 100k on the side. Went full time with it in 2019. And since then, we've taught 5 million women how to be better with money. And it's my favorite thing to do on this earth is fight for women's financial rights.
- [06:14]
Vivian Tu
I love it. And specifically, since you mention your brand before financial feminist became a book and a podcast was called her first 100k.
- [06:23]
Tori Dunlap
And it still is. But, yeah, the book and the pod are financial feminists.
- [06:26]
Vivian Tu
You specifically saved a hundred thousand dollars by age 25, which honestly sounds like fake news in this economy. Can you break it down for us? Like, what was your actual salary at the time? What sacrifices did you make? And what was that timeline like? And how'd you do it?
- [06:39]
Tori Dunlap
Yeah, first of all, I like to acknowledge the privilege I Had I graduated college debt free. And that was a combination of my parents having saved some money for me. But also I worked three jobs on campus. I worked a, you know, part time job in the summers. So it was a collaborative effort to get me out of college debt free. But that 100k wouldn't have happened as quickly as it did if I had a student loan payment.
- [06:59]
Vivian Tu
So you got to start at the start line versus all the way back in the parking lot, totally miles back.
- [07:04]
Tori Dunlap
And I think it's important to acknowledge that before I'm like, here's all the other things you can do. But I automated my savings. So I was setting up an automatic transfer from my checking account to my savings account. And at the peak, I was saving 27% of my take home pay. So all of that was going either into an emergency fund, into a high yield savings account, or my second thing was I was investing really early. I was 22, opened up my first Roth IRA. My dad sat me down and he was like, here's how you buy vti. And I was like, I don't know what this means, I'll figure it out. So it was investing my earnings and, you know, maximizing when I could, my IRA or my 401k contributions. I was already. I was also really focused as well on value based spending because I still wanted to travel. I still wanted to live in an expensive city. I live in Seattle. I didn't want to have six roommates if I didn't have to. But I also had this goal of saving 100k. So I developed the practice that I teach, which is like your three value categories. What are the three areas in your life where you get the most joy? And then how do you spend unabashedly on those things and kind of leave the rest?
- [08:06]
Vivian Tu
What are your three?
- [08:07]
Tori Dunlap
My three are travel, food and nesting. And really, I mean plants, because they're my babies and I love them.
- [08:12]
Vivian Tu
Plants.
- [08:13]
Tori Dunlap
Just like making my house a home, which includes plants and decor and like you. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [08:17]
Vivian Tu
Homebody stuff.
- [08:17]
Tori Dunlap
Yeah. And I just bought my first house. So now I'm really, really in nesting mode. And then I negotiated my salary. So you asked. My first job out of college, I was making $55,000 a year. That's pre tax, obviously.
- [08:29]
Vivian Tu
What were you doing?
- [08:29]
Tori Dunlap
I was doing social media management. That was my background. So I was a social media marketer. I was the only marketer at this security company of 5,000 people. Then as soon as I was like, this is a toxic place to work, I'm not going to be able to make the kind of money I want to make. I left. And that was probably the best thing I did was I job hopped every two years. And I never made, at least with my 9 to 5, I never made over 77k a year. So I think a lot of people hear my 100k story and they're like, oh well that's easy if you're making like $150,000 a year. And I'm like, no, I was making like a moderate salary. But then I was also making money with her first 100k, not in the first couple of years. But then when it started getting traction, I was like, okay, now I have another source of income to contribute. So negotiating your salary and like job hopping, like I want people to quit their jobs, like you have more negotiating power when you first start your job than you ever will again. And so if you're in a job where you know you're undercompensated, they are not interested in having conversations with you about compensation increases. I know the job market's rough right now, but there's other stuff out there. Like at least start looking, start networking. Because I, I think job hopping gets such a negative reputation. But we all do it like as millennials, Gen Z, like everybody's doing it. And I think it's actually a really smart career and financial move.
- [09:48]
Vivian Tu
I was just gonna ask you, cause you mentioned like the job market's tough right now. How do you think your advice changes for folks now? Especially knowing with the rise of AI taking early stage entry level jobs, with the fact that right now there aren't as many jobs being created and people are actually seeing the gap between the amount of money you make. Job hopping versus job staying, starting to converge.
- [10:12]
Tori Dunlap
Interesting. Yeah, yeah. I mean it's. The issue I have is like so many women, especially who's my primary demo. Like we believe both because we were told by society and also because we've internalized it, that like, it's good enough. Right. Or like, I should just be grateful that I have what I have. And the answer is yes, like practice, gratitude. But at the end of the day, if you are putting up with poor behavior because you're like, somebody's going to notice me, they're not going to notice you, they're not going to give you a raise. There's some organizations that will, and those are great jobs, you should keep them. But I think it is important to have your options open always. There are workplaces out there that respect you, that offer Good benefits that will pay for your family leave. Like, there are great organizations out there that respect you and it's just a matter of finding those jobs.
- [10:59]
Vivian Tu
How do I make myself stand out?
- [11:01]
Tori Dunlap
It's a great question. I think the biggest thing that I teach people, especially, we see a lot of people who get a certain degree or in a certain job and they want to up level, but they don't have the resume for it.
- [11:13]
Vivian Tu
Right.
- [11:13]
Tori Dunlap
They don't have the specific things on their resume. So what I have people do is like, look at a job description and go line by line when they're like, I don't know, shows up on time. I don't know the specific things that you're going to have the job requirements. You might not have like a definitive thing where I have done 100% this, but you can say, oh, I did this at my previous job. So my friend Hailey worked at PF Chang. She was like a maitre D. Yeah. But she wanted to become a recruiter and she didn't have recruiting experience. Right. But it was like, you know, manages time and takes calls and, you know, is personable. And she could say, yeah, I managed an entire restaurant. I know how to talk to people. I know how to talk to people who are angry and really want a table. Right. Like she had all of the stories that she could then say, not just like, yes, I can do the job, but I have been doing the job, just not with a recruiting title. So anytime you can bridge those skills and look at the job description, because that's where we're pulling questions from. Right. We're both hire hiring now. And like we're pulling questions directly from like, what do I need you to do? I'm like, tell me about a situation. Right. Like have those stories that you can point to that say, I might not have the direct thing you're looking for on paper, but I have all the bridge skills to show you I can do this job.
- [12:27]
Vivian Tu
Yeah. Do you have the reps? But maybe in a different language, maybe in a different flavor.
- [12:33]
Tori Dunlap
Right, right. I think it's really important.
- [12:34]
Vivian Tu
And so, you know, fast forward, you have this toxic job. You don't like, you quit. You continue to grow. You're growing. Her first 100K. I mean, her first 100K has grown into this behemoth media empire.
- [12:47]
Tori Dunlap
That's how I feel about you.
- [12:48]
Vivian Tu
Thank you. Talk to me a little bit about like the business now. How has it changed from when you first started it to now? How has the income changed?
- [12:57]
Tori Dunlap
Yeah.
- [12:57]
Vivian Tu
And if you're Comfortable being transparent. What does the company make and what do you make?
- [13:01]
Tori Dunlap
Yeah. Oh, Viv, it's very different, obviously. I mean, when you're first trying to start a business, it is scrappy as hell. Yeah. Right. Like, it is sticks together. It is you and maybe some help. That is five hours a week because that's all you can afford. And especially when her first 100k was a side hustle in 2019. Like, we rebranded in February of 2019 and I quit my job six months later. Like, it happened pretty fast. And then I remember thinking, okay, I'm making good money, but how am I going to support myself? And then I made $127,000 in the first quarter of 2020. And I was like, this is more money than I've ever had in my life. In my life. And I was like, let's go, we can do this. So, yeah, 2020, I'm trying to remember. I think we made around $300,000 total. And that was our first year of full time entrepreneurship, which was great. And you know, our profit margins like 80, 90% because it's like just you, you're me and like two contractors that I are like 10 hours a week. And then as we started becoming more and more of like a capital B business, you start hiring lawyers and you start hiring accountants and then a second accounting firm. And you just like, the expenses go up at the same time, your growth does too. But things just start getting more expensive. So my life changed pretty rapidly from 100k at 25 to I was a multimillionaire at 27. Like, two years is not a long time. I spent three and a half years just saving my first 100k. And then it was like, okay, I have multiple hundred Ks now and that would not have happened at a 9 to 5 job. And this is the thing that is so hard about our work is I and you, we're really good at teaching people how to be better with money and how to negotiate and how to invest. And all of these things are great. They will get you where you want to be if you are consistent and you're making good money and you're, you know, making strategic decisions. But at the end of the day, when people look at my story or your story, the only reason we are where we are is entrepreneurship. Like, that's. I could not invest my way to multi millions in just two years, Right. Without, I guess, a shit ton of risk. Right? So that's the thing where I love entrepreneurship as the gasoline on a fire of I was Already doing the financially smart things. And then once the business starts making 3, 4, 5 plus million dollars, I'm like, okay, I get to not only give other people jobs, I get to throw money at causes I believe in. I get to afford a house, which most people is. Is a massive privilege at this point. It's not a right anymore. All of that only happened because of entrepreneurship.
- [15:49]
Vivian Tu
Who do you think should and should not become an entrepreneur because not all of us can do it?
- [15:53]
Tori Dunlap
I also agree with that. I think more people should be entrepreneurs than they think should be.
- [16:00]
Vivian Tu
Like, okay, explain that again.
- [16:02]
Tori Dunlap
I deal mostly with women. And we've internalized, like, we can't do it. Like, everybody looks at you or I and is like, they have something I don't have. Like, they have some trait in their DNA. And I'm like, no, we just went for it. And like, done is better than perfect. And we.
- [16:17]
Vivian Tu
I'm stupider than you. That's why I didn't. So I can get smart.
- [16:21]
Tori Dunlap
No, like, legitimately. And I think we're so focused as a culture and as women on being perfect. And you cannot, by definition, be a perfect entrepreneur. You cannot be a perfect author. You cannot be a perfect podcaster. I've fucked up three times already, like, but the proof, like, you have to do it anyway. And people actually love when you screw up because it means you're a real person. So I think people who shouldn't be entrepreneurs. It's a good question. I think if you are someone who has a lot of people dependent on them. Like, I had the privilege of. I don't have. I have financially independent parents. I was not someone who was. Had to send money home.
- [17:04]
Vivian Tu
Right.
- [17:04]
Tori Dunlap
I did not have children. I was in my 20s. I was like, you know, in a big city, but was able to go to the networking events and was able to get on a plane to go do an interview. Like, those things were more flexible because I was in charge of my own financial life. So somebody who is a mom who's, you know, also sending money home, that is immediately harder. Like, you have a lot of barriers besides just what you want to do with your own time and your own money. So I think that's one. I don't know. What do you think who shouldn't be an entrepreneur?
- [17:36]
Vivian Tu
You know, I think there are some people who can't stomach the instability.
- [17:42]
Tori Dunlap
Sure.
- [17:42]
Vivian Tu
Like, there have been months where I'm like, I am the richest woman on earth. Like, I look at my bank account, I'm like, hell, yeah.
- [17:49]
Tori Dunlap
Yep. And there's Other times you're like, there's
- [17:51]
Vivian Tu
months that I haven't, I've made a dollar.
- [17:53]
Tori Dunlap
How am I gonna lay people off?
- [17:54]
Vivian Tu
Right. And I think that is something that becomes challenging, especially when there are people relying on you to eat.
- [18:03]
Tori Dunlap
Yep, totally.
- [18:04]
Vivian Tu
That's a really shitty feeling when you're like, ooh, these numbers don't look good.
- [18:08]
Tori Dunlap
Yeah.
- [18:09]
Vivian Tu
But I think to your point, the. There was a study done that basically found like, the easiest way to become a millionaire is to do it the old fashioned way. Right. Like, you get a W2 job, a corporate job, you, you know, job hop, you go up the ladder, whatever, you
- [18:23]
Tori Dunlap
go up the ladder.
- [18:24]
Vivian Tu
It's almost guaranteed if you make the right decisions, if you are like, consistent, if you are responsible, it's almost guaranteed that you can become a millionaire. And there are no other like major confounding factors to your point of like needing to take care of parents and ailing sibling, like, whatever.
- [18:38]
Tori Dunlap
Recession. Yeah.
- [18:40]
Vivian Tu
Like assuming a normal timeline.
- [18:42]
Tori Dunlap
Right.
- [18:43]
Vivian Tu
That's the easiest way to do it. But people don't want consistent or long.
- [18:49]
Tori Dunlap
No.
- [18:49]
Vivian Tu
They want it fast.
- [18:50]
Tori Dunlap
No.
- [18:50]
Vivian Tu
And they want it yesterday.
- [18:51]
Tori Dunlap
And I will say I was willing to be consistent. I think that is, like, I was not the person who was like, this isn't happening quick enough. But I am somebody who was so sick and tired of men I. I didn't respect telling me what to do. Like, I was sick of that and I was sick of that, like from jump, like six months. My first corporate drama. I'm 22, and I'm like, is this what I'm doing for the next 35 years is making somebody I don't respect richer? No, thank you. And even the way we run our company now, I think is unfortunately very novel. Like, I give a paid week off to our employees every quarter where the entire company shuts down. That's unfortunately pretty rare. But it's like, I respect your rest, I respect your time with your family. Go on vacation, go have fun. We do unlimited pto and it's not like unlimited, it's like actually unlimited. And we give paid family leave and we do paid menstrual leave. And like, I wanted to build the kind of workplace that I did not have.
- [19:50]
Vivian Tu
A type of place you wanted to work at?
- [19:52]
Tori Dunlap
Yes. And a kind of place that I hoped other people wanted to work at too. And especially where. Where an all women team where women felt not only like the work aligned with them and they felt passionate about it, but they actually felt like, cool, I want to show up to work Today.
- [20:05]
Vivian Tu
Yeah, I love that. Let's talk a little bit about women since we're on the topic.
- [20:11]
Tori Dunlap
Great.
- [20:11]
Vivian Tu
You wrote a New York Times best selling book. Financial Feminist. What does being a financial feminist mean to you? Support for net worth and chill comes from Adobe. When you write down your financial goals, you do it knowing that life happens. Your finances evolve, your timeline shifts, and the details change as needed. So if you need to be flexible and adaptable, then the documents you use to keep track of it all should be too. That's where PDF spaces from Adobe Acrobat Studio comes in. With Acrobat Studio, you can do so much more with a PDF file than you ever thought possible. PDF Spaces takes those documents and turns them into a living project that you can edit, engage with, and collaborate with others on. You can even put all of your files into one workspace and have a whole conversation with your AI assistant about it and ask questions to get deep insights about your project. You can also invite people to your PDF space and let them add files, comments, notes, and more. You can brainstorm through sketches or even synthesize all the info in podcast form. Acrobat Studio lets you generate an audio overview of your project in just one click. Learn more at Adobe.com do that with Acrobat.
- [21:14]
Tori Dunlap
I think the best way to describe it is that when you have all you need, you build a longer table and not a higher fence. And I started and ended my book with that quote and that money is our best form of protest. Like having a financial education, having money. And I'm not talking Bezos money. I don't want that, I don't need that. I'm just talking enough money to do what I want to do.
- [21:36]
Vivian Tu
Enough money not to have to, like, put food back at the grocery store.
- [21:39]
Tori Dunlap
Yes. And enough money to say yes when you want to say yes and no when you want to say no. And to say, this situation doesn't respect me, I'm out. That is so incredible. Like, imagine if every woman on the planet had that. We live in a very different society. We live in a very different world. Like, 30, 25 women who are uncontrollable are the patriarchy's worst nightmare. And like, I love being the patriarchy's worst nightmare. I'm like, let's go, baby. Like, I don't want to be forced in a situation that I can't get out of because I don't have enough money.
- [22:12]
Vivian Tu
Right?
- [22:12]
Tori Dunlap
And we get messages, and I know you do too, all the time from women DV survivors that have literally that that's the one. And, like, I'm a cancer and I can't get through a goddamn interview without crying. But, like, those are the one. Just. I'm like, can you imagine being in a situation? I mean, you don't have to imagine it. Women are everywhere.
- [22:29]
Vivian Tu
Everywhere.
- [22:29]
Tori Dunlap
Being in a situation where you don't have access to money, you don't have access to your own bank account, you might not even make money. Your. Your money's controlled. You get an allowance from your partner, and on top of the financial abuse, he is verbally or physically abusing you, and you can't leave because you don't have money. Like, that is the perfect example of what I'm talking about. When you have money, your entire life changes. And when we talk about the feminist part of this is that there are so many systemic barriers to somebody building wealth. And, you know, there's plenty of people out there who are going to tell you, if you just work hard, everything will happen for you. But that's so gaslighty when you're like, I've done all the right things, and I still can't buy a house and I'm not spending the latte money, but I still can't get ahead. And I'm like, that's why we have to acknowledge that there's a systemic part of this that has a much bigger influence on whether or not you're financially successful in addition to your hard work. So we work to control the things we can control. We show up, we take our financial education seriously, we listen to podcasts, we read books, we follow people we respect and whose values align with us, and then we work to change everything else.
- [23:34]
Vivian Tu
I love that. What's a money mistake that you have learned a lot from in your own personal life?
- [23:41]
Tori Dunlap
That's a good question. I think that I have sometimes been hesitant to pay money investing in myself.
- [23:52]
Vivian Tu
So, like, give me an example.
- [23:54]
Tori Dunlap
So most of us go to college and we spend an ungodly amount of money getting a degree, right? And then we never really spend money on our education again. Like, we might get a master's or we might get, like, a certification, but so many people, like, won't spend money to learn from you or I, or won't buy a course that's really helpful or effective or even will buy a $25 book. But what if that $25 book could make you a hundred thousand dollars? And I think that it was very easy for me to slip into that trap, which is like, oh, I'll watch the YouTube video. For free. And I would get two minutes into the YouTube video, especially, like, working out. Like, that was something that was really. I would do this all the time is I'm like, well, okay, YouTube's free and I'll go on and all. And then I fail. Because there was no, there was no accountability, right?
- [24:42]
Vivian Tu
No, I can't work out with like a YouTube.
- [24:44]
Tori Dunlap
No. Because the workout was half hour. I'd get 10 minutes in and be like, that's good enough. And that was not successful for me. So I had to be like, yeah, I will pay 25 to go to this in person fitness class or I will buy this book because I know I'll show up and read it. Or I will pay for a coach because I need that handholding and I need somebody being like, hey, have you done what you said you were going to do? And that accountability is so crucial when you have goals and you have ambitions that you want to hit. But so many of us pay $200,000 for a college degree, which, you know, we could debate the merits of that for a very long time, but then we never think to invest in ourselves again or invest in our knowledge or education again.
- [25:25]
Vivian Tu
I love that tip. On the flip side, what is the worst piece of financial advice you have seen circulating on the interwebs?
- [25:33]
Tori Dunlap
How many, how much time do we have? There's so much bad out there. Like, there's so many bad takes. One thing is that index universal life insurance is a replacement for your 401k. It's not. And I'm looking right down the barrel. It's not. I think it's a total scam. I think crypto is a kind of a scam. That's my hot take. Like, I don't own any crypto. I don't think you need crypto to be financially successful. If you want to invest in it, fine, but it should be no more than 5% of your total portfolio. Like, we are not doing crypto to the moon. There's so much bad advice. I think one is like, pay off all of your debt before you start investing. If you have student loans at four and a half percent interest, you're going to be paying those off until you're 50. And then you want to start investing for retirement at 50. Like, you've just lost all of that time of compound interest when you could be making 7 to 10% on the stock market, right? So that's my rule, is like, okay, 7% if it's over. If your debt's over 7%, it's costing you more money. Credit cards.
- [26:35]
Vivian Tu
Right.
- [26:35]
Tori Dunlap
We need to pay off credit cards first. But if you have a mortgage or student loans that are typically under 7%, it's actually more advantageous to invest that money instead. So that's when I hear a lot. You know, this. The latte, the avocado toast, the Taylor Swift tickets. All of it's so gendered.
- [26:53]
Vivian Tu
I heard about that Xbox. I don't hear it about. I don't hear it about that new whatever. You know, you're getting, like, the NFL season tickets. Yeah, exactly.
- [27:00]
Tori Dunlap
Golf clubs, video games. Yeah, no, that's. I mean, I literally wrote a whole chapter in the book about it. But frivolous spending, and I'm putting that in quotes, is only stuff that is feminine. It is lattes. It's blowouts. It's because you have a shopping addiction. But men are allowed to have hobbies like golfing, but we're not allowed to go see Taylor Swift because it's. It's the reason we're not rich. And by the way, let's say we stop spending money on those things. Let's say I don't show up to this interview with makeup. Or, like, then I get told I look tired in the YouTube comments, right? Or then I get told, you can't. You're not going to get that promotion because you don't look professional. So the very things we're being shamed for are also the things that we're seeing all these studies about, like, women who wear makeup make 20% more. And it's like, okay, so what do you want?
- [27:45]
Vivian Tu
Right?
- [27:46]
Tori Dunlap
Which one do you want?
- [27:47]
Vivian Tu
Right? Because you can't have both.
- [27:48]
Tori Dunlap
Because you can't have both.
- [27:50]
Vivian Tu
And speaking of women being placed in a box, you are a female CEO, female founder. I want to know what is the toughest business decision you have had to make, either with her first 100k or just, you know, one of your financial feminist brands? Like, what's just the hardest thing you've had to do?
- [28:08]
Tori Dunlap
Firing people's the worst. Like, that's not a fun experience.
- [28:13]
Vivian Tu
I've only fired one person. It was very easy.
- [28:15]
Tori Dunlap
Oh, yeah, that's not true.
- [28:17]
Vivian Tu
That's not true.
- [28:17]
Tori Dunlap
You're right.
- [28:17]
Vivian Tu
You're right. Actually, one fire was very challenging. The other one was very easy.
- [28:21]
Tori Dunlap
We've had to do quite a few. And I say fire as, like, ending a contract, too. But, like, also, we fired employees. That's a very hard thing, especially when you deeply care for that person. And on the flip side, it's really hard when you don't care for that person anymore. And you're like, I don't feel bad about this, but also, I have to lawyer up or I have to make sure all my ducks are in a row. I mean, this is going to sound like, you know, small violin, but one of the things that is not talked about enough about being an entrepreneur is documentation. Like, if you are firing somebody, you cannot just wake up and say, and nor should you, like, but if you have been dissatisfied with their work performance for months, but you have not documented that, you're in a world of hurt. So there were times early in our business where you're just so involved in making sure the business is running that you're like, yeah, that person's kind of half doing their job. But you're not writing things down. You're not sending things to E, you know, in emails, to lawyers, because you have other shit to do. That's much more important until you realize, no, I probably need to let them go. But you have no documentation to support that. It's all in your brain, but it's not on paper. And that's a fun, rude awakening when you're a business owner that there is so much red tape. Rightfully so, but there's a lot of red tape. There's a lot of, you know, legality to decisions, especially when you're moving quick. You're moving quick as a business owner. You want to make sure that, yes, you know, this is the right decision, but you have to have all of the receipts to back that up. I think the other hard decision that you have to make over and over as a business owner is no one hands us the playbook to our own businesses.
- [30:06]
Vivian Tu
No, you're one of one.
- [30:07]
Tori Dunlap
No one is teaching you, like, yeah, you can go get an mba, but again, I can debate the laurels of an MBA all day, but no one is. No one is coming in and being like, yes, you should make this decision, and I have to make 200 decisions a day. Same with you. I know it's.
- [30:26]
Vivian Tu
You're exhausted by the end.
- [30:27]
Tori Dunlap
You're so tired, and. And you will never know it's the right decision until you've done it. So just make the decision, and then you'll figure it out if it's right or not, and then you'll tweak after that. But I think it's very easy to come to me and be like, tori has all answers. I'm like, no, I do not. Like, I am making educated guesses just like you. And I think I'M right most of the time because I know how to run a smart business. I'm also wrong. And it's making sure that you are pivoting quick, that you know how to recover from that decision and that it's not a big enough choice where it's devastated your entire livelihood.
- [31:05]
Vivian Tu
Right. We only have, you know, a couple minutes left, but I do want to pivot to an incredibly light and not controversial topic at all. You know, you've seen the headlines. Sweeping tariffs.
- [31:19]
Tori Dunlap
Yeah.
- [31:21]
Vivian Tu
We're currently, as this is being recorded in a government shutdown. Maybe by the time this releases, the shutdown will be over. Hopefully.
- [31:27]
Tori Dunlap
Hopefully.
- [31:29]
Vivian Tu
There's a lot happening right now in, you know, this administration, this economy. I am trying to be very, very mindful about how I ask this, but it can almost feel overwhelming, like there's nothing we can do. What's your perspective on how we can continue to be smart with our money, with our finances, even across a lot of, you know, trials and tribulations? Let's be honest.
- [31:57]
Tori Dunlap
Yeah. The first thing is to acknowledge that it does not feel great right now.
- [32:02]
Vivian Tu
No.
- [32:03]
Tori Dunlap
And I know that sounds so obvious, but capitalism will convince you to just keep your head down and keep working really hard. And, like, it's very easy to lose your empathy and lose your humanity with everything, because you're just like, I just gotta get by. I just gotta figure it out. So it's okay if you're like, this is all really bad. Like, this is bad and this is hard. Again, we're the same age, so we've been through how many unprecedented life events?
- [32:34]
Vivian Tu
The whole thing has been unprecedented every five years. I'd like some precedented.
- [32:38]
Tori Dunlap
Literally, like 9, 11. I think we were in second grade. 2008 happened not super far after that, Occupy Wall Street. After that, Trump won. Covid, Trump 2. Like, it's. There's a lot. There's a lot going on all the time. And so the first thing is, like, if you're just trying to get by, you're doing a great job. It's not like Mr. Rogers or something, but, like, you are, like, you're doing a great job. I think the second thing, take your financial education seriously. This is the time.
- [33:11]
Vivian Tu
Yeah.
- [33:11]
Tori Dunlap
It is so easy to shut down, to tune it all out, to be like, there's nothing I can do, because there's a lot we can't control. So show up for yourself. Listen to the podcast, read the books, do the things that you and I talk about. Don't just be a passive listener. Don't Just be like, okay, I listen to show.
- [33:31]
Vivian Tu
Don't watch it and save it. You got to do it.
- [33:33]
Tori Dunlap
You got to do it. And you have more control than you think. There are so many systemic barriers, but there are also small steps that you can take every day that make you feel better because you're controlling the things you can control as opposed to just throwing up your hands and being like, what can I do? And I've seen it in my own life. You and I've both seen it in the millions of people we impact every day. When you do show up and take the shit seriously, it has the opportunity to change everything about your life. Change every part about how you show up in your relationships, how you show up in your job, what behavior you will or won't accept. Because when you have money, you have options.
- [34:13]
Vivian Tu
Yep.
- [34:14]
Tori Dunlap
And that's the biggest thing I can cling to right now is if you want an answer to how to navigate this. The goal is to get rich. The goal is to get rich now. Not in an exploitative way, not in a way that makes other people feel worse, but in a way that's like, I want options, I want choices, and that's what I need everybody to do.
- [34:35]
Vivian Tu
If there is one money move that you recommend every single person who is currently listening to this or watching this make, what would it be?
- [34:44]
Tori Dunlap
Automate your savings. You can do this in two seconds. Set up an automatic transfer from your checking account to your savings account. Happens without you having to think about it. And if you are somebody who does not make a lot of Money Right now, $20 a month is okay. That's great because it'll compound without you having to think about it. And it builds the habit of saving. It builds the muscle. If you can manage $50,000, you can manage 500,000. Because if you're building those habits, you know that when you do start making more money, you know what to do. You've got it. You've already built that smart financial game plan. So automate your savings. Automate every part of your financial life.
- [35:23]
Vivian Tu
When you automate, it takes the emotion out of it.
- [35:24]
Tori Dunlap
It really does.
- [35:25]
Vivian Tu
Makes it a lot easier.
- [35:26]
Tori Dunlap
Yep.
- [35:27]
Vivian Tu
Thank you so much for joining me. It's been an absolute treat. And it's really nice to just get to get to see you because we're friends. Let everybody at home listening and watching know where we can find you.
- [35:37]
Tori Dunlap
Yeah. So I am at her first 100k on all the socials. Her first hundred k dot com quiz is a great resource to send people to that is a free personalized money plan for wherever you're at in your financial journey. I'll ask you a few questions, you'll give me your email and I'll send it straight to your inbox. And Financial Feminist is our book and podcast and I would love to see you over there too.
- [35:54]
Vivian Tu
So perfect. Amazing.
- [35:55]
Tori Dunlap
Thanks.
- [35:56]
Vivian Tu
Tori thanks thanks for tuning into this week's episode of Net Worth and Chill, part of the Vox Media Podcast network. If you liked the episode, make sure to leave a rating and review and subscribe so you never miss an episode. Got a burning financial question that you want covered in a future episode? Write to us via podcastourrichbff.com follow Net Worth and Chillpod on Instagram to stay up to date on all podcast related news and you can follow me at your rich rich BFF for even more financial know how. See you next week.
- [36:23]
Tori Dunlap
Bye.
- [36:25]
Vivian Tu
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