You Can't Sit WIth Us! Bringing Diversity to the Country Club

Summary

Networth and Chill: Episode Summary – "You Can't Sit With Us! Bringing Diversity to the Country Club"

Podcast Information:

• Title: You Can't Sit With Us! Bringing Diversity to the Country Club
• Host: Vivian Tu
• Guests: Jackie Sky Muller & Marlon Muller, Co-founders of Recreational Habits
• Release Date: December 11, 2024

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Introduction

In this engaging episode of Networth and Chill with Your Rich BFF, host Vivian Tu delves into the intersection of fashion, sports, and diversity with Jackie Sky Muller and Marlon Muller, the dynamic duo behind Recreational Habits. The conversation centers on redefining traditional preppy style and making country club sports more inclusive for people of color.

Origins of Prep Style

Vivian kicks off the discussion by exploring the historical roots of prep culture.

Jackie Sky Muller explains:

"Prep style came out of prep schools and then it went into Ivy League style... It was a mix of high, low tailoring and sportswear that felt very rebellious at the time." ([04:05]).

She highlights how the GI Bill and pivotal historical moments facilitated the spread of prep style across the United States, emphasizing its evolution from a predominantly white, affluent aesthetic to a more diverse and inclusive one.

Founders' Backgrounds and Personal Narratives

Vivian inquires about Jackie and Marlon's personal connections to prep culture and the associated sports.

Jackie shares her experience:

"I played golf growing up... I hated it at first, especially in the hot Dallas weather, but it has served me well in business settings." ([06:02]).

Marlon adds:

"I didn't play golf or tennis as a kid... My first exposure was in my 20s for work, and I felt like an outsider." ([06:48]).

Their diverse backgrounds—Jackie being Korean and Marlon from New Jersey—bring unique perspectives to the conversation, highlighting the challenges and privileges intertwined with accessing traditionally exclusive sports.

Founding Recreational Habits

The core of the episode revolves around how Jackie and Marlon founded Recreational Habits to bridge the gap in preppy fashion for people of color.

Jackie recounts:

"We needed clothes to play tennis and golf, but nothing was inclusive in the market. That's when we saw an opportunity to create something meaningful." ([16:55]).

Their mission is to provide stylish, functional apparel that resonates with a diverse community, breaking down the barriers that have historically limited access to country club sports.

Financial Journey and Entrepreneurial Insights

Vivian probes into the financial aspects of starting an apparel brand, especially amidst major life changes like marriage and parenthood.

Marlon candidly admits:

"That one collection was way more than 50 grand. If you run the numbers, we started with close to a million bucks all in." ([22:32]).

Despite initial financial missteps—financing the venture without a solid plan—they emphasize the importance of adaptability. Marlon advises:

"Don't be afraid to research and dig into what you want to do. But before you execute, make sure you have that information and a plan." ([23:20]).

Jackie complements this by encouraging entrepreneurs to start small and validate their ideas before scaling:

"You don't have to make everything so perfect to move forward. Sometimes, just putting your idea out there and seeing if people respond is enough." ([25:33]).

Mission and Impact: Promoting Diversity in Sports

A significant portion of the conversation focuses on how Recreational Habits aims to democratize access to sports like golf and polo.

Jackie emphasizes:

"We wanted to tell people of color that you do have an agency and a tie to these sports. It’s about sharing untold histories and creating opportunities for the next generation." ([11:14]).

They discuss initiatives such as hosting free clinics and partnering with organizations like City Kids DC to provide exposure and education to underprivileged youth, fostering a more inclusive sporting community.

Challenges as Founders of Color

Vivian addresses the unique challenges Jackie and Marlon face as people of color in a predominantly white industry.

Marlon reflects:

"We know our story, and the brand is an extension of our lives. It’s about breaking down barriers and ensuring everyone feels connected to something meaningful." ([30:21]).

Jackie adds:

"Being a go-to brand for someone playing golf with their boss for the first time means providing stylish, comfortable apparel that helps them feel confident and included." ([32:06]).

Their shared experiences underscore the importance of representation and the impact of authentic storytelling in building a brand that resonates across diverse communities.

Brand Strategy and Growth

The founders discuss their approach to branding in the digital age, leveraging platforms like Instagram and Shopify to build a direct-to-consumer relationship.

Jackie notes:

"With Instagram and Shopify, you can create a successful business without wholesale accounts. It allows you to stay true to your brand and directly understand your customers." ([46:19]).

They highlight collaborations with iconic brands like Keds, which emerged organically due to mutual appreciation and shared values:

"Nicole from Keds reached out because they were inspired by our campaigns on mood boards. It was an organic conversation that led to amazing partnerships." ([54:45]).

Future Plans and Vision

Looking ahead, Jackie and Marlon share their aspirations for Recreational Habits and their personal lives.

Jackie envisions:

"We want to lean into more technical elements, enhance sustainability, and expand our global presence, especially in Asia and Europe. Additionally, we aim to continue hosting clinics and promoting our mission." ([62:22]).

Marlon adds:

"Our goal is to balance managing the business with family life, ensuring the brand continues to grow while supporting our missions of inclusivity and accessibility." ([63:42]).

Conclusion

Vivian concludes the episode by reflecting on the profound impact of vulnerability and authenticity in brand-building. The heartfelt exchange between Vivian and the Mullers underscores the importance of genuine connections and mission-driven entrepreneurship.

Vivian shares a personal anecdote:

"I remember receiving a vulnerable email from Jackie about watching my content during morning sickness. That kind of authenticity makes a lasting impression." ([52:13]).

Marlon agrees:

"Bringing the consumer inside and sharing our journey allows people to connect deeply with our brand." ([52:13]).

The episode beautifully encapsulates the Mullers' dedication to transforming the preppy aesthetic into one that celebrates diversity and inclusion, making country club sports accessible to all.

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Notable Quotes:

• Jackie Sky Muller: "Prep style came out of prep schools and then it went into Ivy League style... It was a mix of high, low tailoring and sportswear that felt very rebellious at the time." ([04:05])
• Marlon Muller: "That one collection was way more than 50 grand. If you run the numbers, we started with close to a million bucks all in." ([22:32])
• Jackie Sky Muller: "We needed clothes to play tennis and golf, but nothing was inclusive in the market. That's when we saw an opportunity to create something meaningful." ([16:55])
• Vivian Tu: "I remember receiving a vulnerable email from Jackie about watching my content during morning sickness. That kind of authenticity makes a lasting impression." ([52:13])

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Final Thoughts:

This episode of Networth and Chill offers a compelling narrative on the intersection of fashion, sports, and diversity. Jackie and Marlon's journey with Recreational Habits serves as an inspiring example of how mission-driven entrepreneurship can foster inclusivity and break down longstanding barriers in traditionally exclusive arenas.

Transcript

[Jackie Sky Muller]

Just living our life, right? We needed clothes to wear to play tennis, clothes to where to play golf. And we were just thinking about what was missing in the market.

[Marlon Muller]

That one, that one collection was way more than 50 grand. If you run the numbers, are you.

[Vivian Tew]

Just like a prodigious polo player or could I do this too?

[Marlon Muller]

Oh, 100% you can.

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[Vivian Tew]

What'S up rich friends? Welcome back to another episode of Net Worth and Chill with me, Vivian Tew, AKA Urich, BFF and your favorite Wall street girlie. And as some of the longtime besties know, I grew up in the dmv. Woohoo. Specifically the M, AKA Maryland. And in the Maryland suburbs, I was exposed to my fair share of Jack Rogers flip flops, the boat shoes, the Lily Pulitzer, the polo shirts, the the classic preppy style that encompasses all things country club. But let's be real. For a very long time, this look and lifestyle have been associated with a predominantly white old rich demographic. And often it's not very inclusive. And if you are watching instead of just listening to the podcast today, if you look around, it's pretty diverse at this table tennis, crew golf, equestrian, horse riding and the fashion surrounding these activities have historically catered to that very specific group. That said, these days with the old money aesthetic blowing up on TikTok, people are interested in preppy style. And the question is, can only certain types of people have this look? That's why I am so excited to talk to our guests today. The co founders of Recreational Habits who are redefining the modern prep look for people of color. And everybody else, Jackie Sky Muller and Marlon Muller. Welcome to Net Worth and Chill.

[Marlon Muller]

Thank you for having us.

[Jackie Sky Muller]

Thank you so much for having us. What an introduction.

[Vivian Tew]

Yeah, I'm so excited to talk to you guys. But before we begin, can we get a little background? Like how did prep culture, prep style even originate?

[Jackie Sky Muller]

Sure, I would say, I mean it really depends on who you ask, but prep style came out of prep schools and then it went into Ivy League style. And at that time, you know, in the early 1920s, 1930s. It was predominantly within Princeton, I would say. I think everyone has a different opinion about it, but at Princeton, the kid, the men, because it was an all men's school at the time, they were taking the clothes that they got from Brooks Brothers or maybe something that they got when they were living at home, and. And they were remixing it with a lot of the sportswear that they had to wear for campus sports. So it was this mix of, like, high, low tailoring. But the way they did it, it almost felt very, I would say, like, counterculture. Like they were rebelling against the tailored look that their parents wanted them to wear. And so they would roll up their sleeves and they would wear, like, the big turtlenecks under jackets. And it was just a really unique look at that time. And from there, it kind of spread throughout the. There's just so many different things that happened in history, like the GI Bill and all of these different moments that kind of came together at the right time in order to make prep style just, you know, really expand throughout the rest of the country.

[Vivian Tew]

Yeah. That is so crazy, by the way. I actually did not know that history.

[Jackie Sky Muller]

Mm.

[Vivian Tew]

And I'm so curious. Why do you think that look is so effortlessly cool?

[Jackie Sky Muller]

I. It's so hard for me to say, because I think that the way that it has evolved even from that time and the way that we look at it now and how, like, you know, musicians like Miles Davis, like, kind of took it up, and I think it's just one of the most rebellious styles because it came from a place of, you know, it's almost like a very privileged place to come from. Right. Cause, like, you had to have money in order to go to these schools, in order to have these clothes, but then you wore them in, and you, you know, you cut the bottoms off and you wore socks with loafers, and you really rebelled against what it was supposed to be in order to create your own unique identity, your own style in that space.

[Vivian Tew]

Yeah. So, Jackie, you mentioned that it started at Princeton, really, through the sports that were being played on campus. Were those the sports that are now associated with prep culture, like tennis court, golf, equestrian, horseback riding, things like that? Because I don't think those are played like. You're not horseback riding at Princeton, are you?

[Jackie Sky Muller]

You can play polo. Can you play polo at Princeton? Right. Yeah. You can play polo at Princeton. I guess.

[Vivian Tew]

I wouldn't know.

[Jackie Sky Muller]

I think also, I think it was just this. It's less about the specific sport. And I think prep style has, of course, maintained its. I guess Longevity within country club sports. But I think at that time, it was, you know, football and lacrosse and soccer. It was just across the board. Sports across the board, and how that influenced the way that students were dressing on campus.

[Vivian Tew]

Did you guys participate in those sports growing up?

[Jackie Sky Muller]

So I played golf growing up. I'm Korean, so I was actually born in Korea.

[Vivian Tew]

Born in golf is what you meant.

[Jackie Sky Muller]

Exactly. And, you know, if you didn't play golf, you didn't play really spend time with certain parts of your family. So I really learned how to play golf from an early age. I hated it. I grew up in Dallas, Texas, and it's hot. It's super hot. The game is long. When you're 8, 9 years old, that's the last thing you want to do with your dad. But I grew up and I had the privilege of learning how to play when I was young, and I think now it's served me so well because you can play in a business setting. And I think Marlon can speak to that even further, how important it is to have just exposure and access to certain sports when you're young, because later on, you don't necessarily have the time to learn it, and it can really benefit you, especially in the workplace.

[Marlon Muller]

Yeah. I didn't play golf or tennis as a kid. We had access to basketball courts and football fields.

[Vivian Tew]

Quick, remind me, Marlon, Jackie, where do you guys grow up?

[Marlon Muller]

Jersey.

[Vivian Tew]

Jersey and Dallas.

[Jackie Sky Muller]

Yeah.

[Vivian Tew]

Okay.

[Marlon Muller]

Yeah. So for me, I didn't start playing golf until I was in my 20s, and it was for work, and that was my first exposure to it. And I remember feeling an outsider when I got to the golf course for the first time. Well, you know, it's something that I had seen on tv. You know, I'd seen it on tv, and it was never really a real thing to me, but around my colleagues, it became very real. And I wanted to be taken serious, especially in a work setting. So I tried to fit in and looked at different J. Crew magazines, Ralph Lauren articles of what I was supposed to look like when I went to go play golf. And so I really looked the part when I went out there for the first time.

[Vivian Tew]

Yeah, but you had all the pictures.

[Marlon Muller]

I did.

[Jackie Sky Muller]

I did you have the little hat?

[Marlon Muller]

I didn't have the hat, but I had the socks. I had the socks, so it was great. I didn't play well, but it was at that moment where I realized that it was so foreign to me. It wasn't something that I really had any sort of connection to. And so I think one of the things that Inspired us with the brand, was making it more accessible. And, you know, people, just. A lot of kids in urban communities don't have access.

[Vivian Tew]

Yeah.

[Marlon Muller]

So making it something that they can connect to, something that they see themselves in. And that exposure at a young age, I think is what. What really opens the door. And so now you see that a lot of kids are playing.

[Vivian Tew]

Yeah.

[Marlon Muller]

You know, they're finding avenues to get to golf courses. And so it's a. It's a very cool thing, but for me, it was not something that was, you know, from. From my. From my youth coming up.

[Vivian Tew]

Yeah. Having this conversation reminds me of a movie. I can't remember the name, that I recently watched on a plane. And it was about these young boys at a high school in a border town in Texas, and they were Latino young men.

[Jackie Sky Muller]

Oh, yeah, we watched that.

[Vivian Tew]

Yes. What is it called?

[Marlon Muller]

I don't know the name of it.

[Vivian Tew]

But basically, you guys just Google this premise.

[Marlon Muller]

Jay Hernandez.

[Vivian Tew]

Yes.

[Marlon Muller]

Yeah, that's all I can remember.

[Vivian Tew]

Yes. But they. They played golf on a court, or I guess a course that they had dug up themselves with, like, shovels and, you know, made little flags out of, like, T shirts and milk cartons and sand traps and everything. But they were competing with some of the best teams and winning.

[Marlon Muller]

Yeah.

[Vivian Tew]

Because they had a coach that believed in them who was white.

[Marlon Muller]

Right. And you know something that's interesting, I. A lot of the people of color who were good golfers, especially the older ones, were good at golfing because they were caddies. So that was their access. So they learned the game through observation and then being a part of. Of the establishment where they would get the opportunity to play from time to time. And that was the connection. But they weren't passing that onto their kids because that was work. So it wasn't something that they necessarily shared with the family.

[Jackie Sky Muller]

I think that's. I mean, it's really interesting. Cause we see that a lot within other sports as well. Like in equestrianism, you see that now as a predominantly, like, white sport. But all of the horse keepers, the. The first jockeys, they were all people of color. Yeah, exactly. They were all black, taking care of the horses, and they knew the most about the horses. And so it's interesting now that we are seeing more of this history kind of come up. And it's great because we can tell these stories. And that's exactly what we wanted to do at Recreational habits is tell people, like, people of color that you do actually have an agency and a tie to the sport. Maybe you just didn't know about it because people weren't recording it in the books or celebrating it at the time. So it's nice to actually be able to share that.

[Vivian Tew]

Yeah. Such a shame that the people who write the history books are just the people who had the resources to do.

[Jackie Sky Muller]

Exactly.

[Vivian Tew]

So before we dive in to recreational habits, you guys are co founders, but you also are a couple. You're married.

[Jackie Sky Muller]

You live together.

[Vivian Tew]

I don't want to overstate the obvious, but why did you guys decide, hey, I spend 247 with this person at home. I'm actually going to make it so that they can never escape me. We will be sitting next to each other all day, every day. Let's go into business together.

[Jackie Sky Muller]

Why did we do that, you guys?

[Vivian Tew]

You see how that. They were both speechless.

[Marlon Muller]

Yeah. You know, I think in the beginning of your relationship, you always want to be around your person.

[Vivian Tew]

Yes.

[Marlon Muller]

And fortunately for me, anyway, Jackie can speak for herself. That feeling of being around her never got old. And so it was just an idea that we had. One day we were coming back from a ski trip in Val d'azere, France, and we were like, we should figure out what we can do together.

[Vivian Tew]

And we started because you literally didn't want to spend a single moment apart.

[Jackie Sky Muller]

That's cute. Well, I would say Marlon has always been very entrepreneurial, like, his entire life. And I am totally the opposite, where I was, like, afraid of ever being entrepreneurial because we're Asian, and my dad was an entrepreneur, and I just saw, like, the highs and lows of how hard that is. So in my head, it was like, work for a big company, you know, have, like, 401k matching, all of that stuff.

[Marlon Muller]

Yeah. Don't take any risk.

[Jackie Sky Muller]

Don't take risks. And he was the complete opposite. So he was like, we should just do something. And he made it sound so easy and fun. And fun. He was like, let's just do something together that we both love. A passion project. So that's kind of where the conversation started. And it was never our intention to do apparel. We had always thought, let's do something digital. Let's do content, let's tell stories. You know, at that time, it seemed like that's really what we were gonna do, and it kind of evolved into this whole leather beast that we're in now.

[Marlon Muller]

But whose idea was it to do apparel?

[Jackie Sky Muller]

I think it was yours. They're pointing fingers at you. I don't think that it would have been my idea.

[Marlon Muller]

Terrible.

[Jackie Sky Muller]

I came. You know, I come.

[Vivian Tew]

Marlon is like, I would Like a.

[Jackie Sky Muller]

Polygraph to be brought out. Thanks. I just want to say, does that feel.

[Marlon Muller]

You feel good on your face when you.

[Jackie Sky Muller]

I come from the apparel world. I know how tough it is. And you did it. You were like, I love making my own, like, custom suits. Like, we can do this.

[Marlon Muller]

Well, I would say that Jackie was destined to be on her own, and I would imagine she feels pretty good about it now.

[Jackie Sky Muller]

Yeah, I think it was a great decision, and it kind of coincided right at the right moment. We had just gotten married. You know, we were thinking about having kids. I was becoming a stepmom, so it was a really great time for me to make a shift. And of course, you know, Covid hit. So, like, what else are we gonna do? So it worked out, and I'm very thankful that I had someone like him really push me, because I don't think I would have ever taken that risk by myself.

[Marlon Muller]

Yeah, I think Covid really helped.

[Vivian Tew]

Yeah.

[Marlon Muller]

Of course, we had lots of time to play tennis.

[Vivian Tew]

I feel like so many people also, like, had a slowdown in their more traditional careers during COVID and were like, I have a genius idea. And I feel like so many genius ideas came out of COVID Totally.

[Marlon Muller]

For sure.

[Vivian Tew]

Yeah.

[Jackie Sky Muller]

Because who takes the time to really stop their life and have you, like, Covid made everyone on a global level take a break.

[Vivian Tew]

I'm so busy making fuzzy coffee and sourdough. Like, I don't.

[Jackie Sky Muller]

How did your sourdough turn out?

[Vivian Tew]

Not good. Like, I don't know what I suddenly thought. Like, I had no business making bread in a 700 square foot apartment in New York City. Like, no business.

[Jackie Sky Muller]

I. I would have tried it.

[Vivian Tew]

Yeah, it was. It was not it. But although it is hotly contentious, who actually thought to start an apparel brand? How do you guys decide you wanted to create, you know, preppy clothing? Like, what. Like, what was the impetus of that? It was just like, oh, we want clothes that we would personally wear, Or.

[Jackie Sky Muller]

Yeah, I would say, I, at the time in my career, in my professional career, like, before the brand, I was really ready for something a little bit more mature. I was growing up, like, I came from this streetwear, Virgil Abloh era, and I was like, let's. I want to do something a little bit more mature. I want to focus on, you know, the next phase of my life. And that really felt like this, like, preppier style. And so I would always go on Pinterest and make mood boards and think about the woman that I wanted to be and how I wanted to dress and that's really where I think the visual identity of the brand came from. And I think in doing so, like, in code, just living our life. Right. We needed clothes to where to play tennis, clothes to where to play golf. And we were just thinking about what was missing in the market. And so I felt like this was an opportunity for us to create something that could have meaning and have. This was something that could have meaning and have value behind the brand, but also serve a purpose in providing clothes for people to wear while playing certain sports.

[Vivian Tew]

Yeah. And from a finances perspective, how did that play into your decision to do this? Knowing that, you know, at this time, like, you've gotten married, you're thinking about becoming a bonus mom. You are thinking about having children together. Like, kids are expensive. Diapers are expensive. Like, how are you paying for diapers? But also starting a company.

[Jackie Sky Muller]

Well, again, we thought we're probably not gonna do apparel, and if we do it, it's gonna be on a very small level. So I would say we didn't really have a great financial plan in terms of, like, what we were going to invest into the company from a financial perspective. You know, we.

[Vivian Tew]

Mila wants to say something.

[Jackie Sky Muller]

Please go.

[Marlon Muller]

No, no. I was gonna say that we did. The thing that you shouldn't do when you start a business.

[Jackie Sky Muller]

Don't do that.

[Marlon Muller]

Is we took an idea that was kind of a hobby, but we wanted to just explore it. And as we started down that path, we kept going, and at some point, we stopped, and we really evaluated things from a financial perspective on what we were going to invest. Time, money. And then, you know, we identified where we wanted to go with it, but initially, we didn't do that. And, you know, when you start a business, you really want to create a roadmap.

[Vivian Tew]

A business plan, if you will.

[Marlon Muller]

A business plan.

[Jackie Sky Muller]

Right.

[Marlon Muller]

You want to know exactly what your risks are and how you're planning for success. And so we. We didn't do that initially. We were probably.

[Vivian Tew]

Would you consider that a mistake? That if you were to go back and give yourself advice, you'd do that this time?

[Jackie Sky Muller]

Yes.

[Vivian Tew]

Yeah. Or.

[Marlon Muller]

Or maybe.

[Botox Ad Voice]

No.

[Marlon Muller]

I mean, I. I would say I don't really see things as mistakes. Right. I see them as learning curves.

[Vivian Tew]

Yeah.

[Marlon Muller]

And I think the knowledge that we have about our business, we wouldn't have gotten if we didn't start it the way we did. So I think the mistake could have been if we didn't stop and really assess and put a plan together. I think that would have been fatal across the board. But I think. I don't recommend you spend money on a hobby and then turn it into a business without a plan. So don't misunderstand me, but I do think that you do have to take risk. You got to take a leap.

[Vivian Tew]

Yeah.

[Marlon Muller]

And when you do that, though, you have to have the mindset that if this turns into something, I really want to cement a plan that I can then go execute to be successful. And I think we did that shortly after we started.

[Vivian Tew]

I'm going to ask for some numbers here if you guys feel comfortable sharing. How much did you start your company with and what were the funding sources?

[Jackie Sky Muller]

It's really hard to say because we didn't like that. We didn't set aside a budget. We were both kind of just financing it from our own bank accounts. Yeah, exactly.

[Marlon Muller]

Yeah. We just.

[Vivian Tew]

Do you guys have. Oh, so there. So there were no, like, family and friends investors? It was just your guys money?

[Jackie Sky Muller]

Yes.

[Marlon Muller]

Yeah.

[Vivian Tew]

How much do you guys think you've put in?

[Marlon Muller]

Just ballpark estimate total to date?

[Vivian Tew]

Yeah.

[Jackie Sky Muller]

A lot? Let's not answer.

[Marlon Muller]

No, I'd say that we probably started the business off with close to a million bucks.

[Vivian Tew]

Wow.

[Marlon Muller]

Like, all in.

[Jackie Sky Muller]

No, that's a lot.

[Marlon Muller]

All in. Think about it.

[Jackie Sky Muller]

I don't agree.

[Marlon Muller]

I don't know. She said to date.

[Jackie Sky Muller]

Okay. But I'm saying just like, initially.

[Vivian Tew]

Initially.

[Jackie Sky Muller]

And then there's re. You know, obviously, like a reinvestment in.

[Marlon Muller]

The capital, but to date, I think that's our.

[Jackie Sky Muller]

No, I think initially, like, first collection. Like to get the first collection out the door. It probably cost us maybe 50k to start with a collection. But again, I think I was coming. Again, I was coming from a world that was very much. I was coming. How do I say this? I was coming from an industry that was known to do drops and known to sell out huge quantities.

[Vivian Tew]

Right.

[Jackie Sky Muller]

So in my head, oh, if we have a minimum of 300 units per color, I didn't ever think that that was gonna be an issue. Right. And you're paying for all that inventory upfront. So a lot of it was.

[Marlon Muller]

I just wanna clarify something. When we started manufacturing, it was like a big business was manufacturing. We didn't start it out like a small business.

[Vivian Tew]

So Jackie's not screen printing in the living room.

[Jackie Sky Muller]

We were not screen printing. We were not running blanks.

[Marlon Muller]

If you just run the numbers and you'll get to where I'm going on multiple SKUs at a minimum of how much?

[Jackie Sky Muller]

Probably 300.

[Marlon Muller]

300 runs per. And we had how many SKUs we have SKUs. Okay. So the reason she's saying 50 grand is because I was on the money side.

[Vivian Tew]

And this is where I'm glad Marlon's here.

[Marlon Muller]

This is where, when we come together, we had to take a step back. And eventually I said, you know what? We need a white board. We need to sit down. He loves this huge whiteboard where we're going with this thing because it's getting serious.

[Vivian Tew]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Marlon Muller]

But that one. That one collection was way more than 50 grand. If you run the numbers, darling, I.

[Jackie Sky Muller]

Have, you know, selective memories.

[Vivian Tew]

Somewhere between 50,000 to a million dollars.

[Marlon Muller]

Yeah. Somewhere in there.

[Vivian Tew]

Somewhere in there, though, I think that is a really important conversation for people to be having. Right. Like, I love this vulnerability and this honesty in that, like, two people who were there at the same time have a very different perspective of how much money was invested. And what is a piece of advice that you guys would give to other founders or people listening to this who are interested in chasing after a passion project like you guys? How would you tell them to best assess their finances and manage that process? At the very, very start of a new company.

[Jackie Sky Muller]

You go first.

[Marlon Muller]

So I think that when you have an idea, you create a plan. I think before you can go out and fully execute on that plan, you have to do research, and that is time and energy spent. Whether it's capital intensive or human capital, you're still using that as an investment. And so I think that first phase of our business was like that. And I think for entrepreneurs, anyone that's starting a business, you have to know what you're getting into.

[Vivian Tew]

Yeah.

[Marlon Muller]

So having a great idea is amazing. Setting a plan to execute on that is also important. Working your way backwards from where you want to be and then looking at the financial cost of. Of getting to where you want to go is how you measure your steps in getting there financially. So I think, you know, if there's any advice I could give, I'd say don't be afraid to research and dig into the thing that you want to do. But before you really execute, make sure you have that information and you have your plan. Your plan will probably need adjustment along the way, but at least you'll have a really good start on getting on base.

[Vivian Tew]

I think that is really valuable advice.

[Jackie Sky Muller]

I agree. I also, but I will say that I think sometimes, you know, people can overthink their plan and they can almost talk themselves away from doing something right. And I'm not saying, you know, go balls to the walls and just go for it, but I'm Saying there is a way you can start small without necessarily having to put up so much of a financial investment. Right? You can do a pre order. You can do like an early sign up and just gauge the interest and see if your product can actually sell in the market, whatever it is, if it's a service, if it's a good, if someone is willing to pay for your item, you know, you have something that is viable, and I think that's a really great way for you to actually start. Maybe if you're someone like me that's a little bit more timid, you know, you don't have to make everything so perfect in order to move forward. Sometimes it's just great to see, to put your idea out there and see if people respond.

[Vivian Tew]

You know what's so funny? We started this podcast, Jackie, with you saying, I am very reticent to be an entrepreneur. Marlon is bold, brave, entrepreneurial. The advice the two of you just gave me is so deeply contradictory to those two statements. Marlon's like, make a plan. Make sure to do R and D. You got to do the research. And Jackie's like, you know, don't do too much research that you're talked out of a good idea. I absolutely love that. Just so you guys know, you're the first couple that I've had on and this is so much fun. I'm learning a lot, but I actually do want to talk a little bit more now. Through the evolution of the business, you guys have had more than just your very first drop, to the best of my knowledge, from the strong social following that you guys are building to the brand awareness to everything, you guys are doing a really good job. Do you feel like you've had a we did it moment yet?

[Jackie Sky Muller]

I don't think I have. I don't think we have. I think there's always room to grow. And I think, you know, we are number one, a mission led company, right? So we always want to do the most that we can in order to create opportunities for the next generation of, you know, recreational athletes, whether it's for tennis or golf. And so I think in that area, I would love for us to do more. I think it's great that we, you know, sell our products on Shopbop and have distribution in Asia and all of these things. Right. Which are great benchmarks. We've had amazing collaborations with Barbie and Keds and so all of those things are great. But I think for us, what we can create from a cultural level and what we can do for the next generation of People and giving them access and exposure. To me, that's the most important thing. And I hope to continue that and scale that way beyond what we've done.

[Vivian Tew]

Yeah, yeah. An agreeing answer. I love that. And how has just, like, the feedback or the reception for recreational habits been like, I'm sure you guys talk to your customers. What are they saying?

[Jackie Sky Muller]

So I was shocked to learn that a lot of our, you know, best clients, our returning clients are actually true, like, die hard tennis players, which is really interesting. Okay, so. And I think for me, because I'm not a die hard tennis player, I'm very like, no, I hate recreational and hate it. I mean, I love the sport. It's just I never thought the people that were wearing the clothes were the ones that were, like, going to, you know, their weekly matches every Thursday or whatever.

[Vivian Tew]

You thought people were using your clothes to do What I did with the clothes, which was wear them to the US Open.

[Jackie Sky Muller]

Right. To watch.

[Vivian Tew]

Use them to play.

[Jackie Sky Muller]

Yes, totally. And. And I think we do definitely have a segment of like, the New York fashion girly who is wearing it on the street and layering it with, like, you know, different things. But then I think when you really look at who our returning customers are and you know, how often they're buying and all of that stuff, it's really this community of, like, moms that are. That have picked up tennis, like, after they had kids and that they love it. They just love playing the sport. Cause it gives them something, I think, outside of, you know, raising kids or whatever they're doing in their own careers, but they have this amazing recreational hobby that they're doing, and so they like to shop for it, and they align with our brand. So it's great for us. And I was just really surprised to hear that. And I love that. And so I think as we evolve more and leaning more into, like, technical wear and bringing more of that element into our products, I want to serve that woman more. Because I think for at least I feel like I'm in that place where I've had kids or I'm having more kids, you know, And I want to start thinking about, like, where I'm going next in my life. And I always think that being able to play golf and tennis, like, that just brings such a beautiful element to your own life. And so if I can service that woman and give her a fashionable identity, I would love to do that also.

[Vivian Tew]

Yeah. And I don't want to state the obvious again for folks who are watching, but for all of our listeners, Jackie, you are an Asian woman. Marlon, you are a black man. How have you guys felt like diving into a space that has been historically so white? Has that been challenging as two founders of color?

[Marlon Muller]

I don't think it's been challenging because we know our story. And you know, I think unless you walk into a room and you think, oh, I'm black or oh, I'm Asian. Yeah, if you feel that way, then maybe you might feel the weight of it. But I think for us it's an extent the brand is an extension of our life.

[Vivian Tew]

Yeah.

[Jackie Sky Muller]

Except, sorry, like you have lived, like I would say I have also lived in this way. But your entire life and I feel like your career, you've always probably been the only black man in the room.

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[Marlon Muller]

Numbers are, the numbers are small. The numbers are small. But you know, and I think that, that, so you're conditioned in that way. But I think you have to, it has to be an undeniable thing that you're doing and you have to believe in it. And when you create a brand that has a mission, what you, what you find quickly is that people will connect because they relate or they understand.

[Vivian Tew]

Yeah.

[Marlon Muller]

So, you know, what's really unique is while there are people of color that support the brand, there are people who are not ethnic that support the mission. And I think, you know, a sweatshirt is a sweatshirt unless it stands for something.

[Vivian Tew]

Yeah.

[Marlon Muller]

And so I find that those who are not involved in Sports, but in the lifestyle, connect to the brand because of what the brand stands for. And that unity is something that we were shooting for initially is to break down those barriers so that across the board, everyone can feel like they connect to something that means something.

[Jackie Sky Muller]

Yeah, I agree completely. I think also it's so awesome to be able to be a go to brand for someone who gets invited to play golf with their boss for the first time. They're like, well, I don't know what to wear, but I wanna wear something that means something to me. Or I don't wanna look frumpy or out of place. Out of place. I don't wanna wear Titleist. I don't wanna wear tailor made, so where can I go? And I love that people have come to us for something that's a little bit more attractive and stylish they could wear. They know that they're gonna look good. They know they are gonna feel good and fit in, and they can wear it and play golf and. Or learn how to play golf or try to play golf or whatever with their boss. And it's like a great opportunity to handhold someone into the sport.

[Vivian Tew]

It is such an opportunity, too. Cause I remember I started my career on Wall street, and I remember when the young men, the young men, analysts, were starting to get invited out to client events to play golf. And I was like, oh, shit, I don't know how to do that. And I would go to Chelsea Piers after work and I would hit balls and I literally would just. Like, the first time I went, it wasn't even playing dumb. I didn't know what I was doing. But there were other young men hitting golf balls at Chelsea Pierce. And I'd be like, can you show me how to do this? And they thought it was, like, cute. And they'd be like, oh, like, this is a single girl playing golf. Like, maybe I can get her number. But, like, I genuinely leverage just the kindness of others, like, willing to show me how to hit a golf ball because, like, I didn't grow up with that.

[Jackie Sky Muller]

And you're like, where do I even begin?

[Vivian Tew]

Yeah. And like, if you don't live in New York City or a major metro that probably has like a, you know, a driving range or something like that. Like, especially when you live in the suburbs or somewhere where you actually have to go to a course to play. I don't think we talk enough about the conversation Marlon alluded to earlier about access. These sports are very, very expensive. You have to have the equipment or rent the equipment. Then you Gotta actually pay greens fees. If you're lazy, you gotta rent the cart or some places make you get a caddy and forget about getting half a hot dog and a Gatorade at the eighth hole. Like at the little concession stand. Like, that's 20 bucks right there. Like, these are incredibly expensive sports. It's very expensive to rent a tennis court. People line up for hours to play on the west side highway in New York because those courts are free. Like, how do you guys hope that your brand will open up doors for people who want to do these hobbies and play these sports in the future?

[Jackie Sky Muller]

Well, I'll start. I would say that the first one is exposure. I think that there are. Yes, it's very expensive to play a lot of these sports. And I. And golf and tennis, I think those are becoming more popular. Pickleball, you know, these are easier steps.

[Vivian Tew]

Pickleball, I can hear the pings right now.

[Jackie Sky Muller]

I know, but like, it's become such a popular thing because the act. I feel like there's more. It's a more democratic sport than tennis. Right. It's something you could play really casually. You don't necessarily need to be the most fit. You don't need to have like a legacy. You know, at a club, there's a lot more court.

[Vivian Tew]

You can get a Pickleball set for 15.99 on Amazon.

[Jackie Sky Muller]

Right.

[Vivian Tew]

You don't have to get a fancy racket and, and you could play it.

[Jackie Sky Muller]

You know, on a hard top basketball court, kind of, you know, setting. So I think that being able to. I think the most important thing is exposure. So I think if there's a willingness for kids in urban communities or communities that are maybe less wealthy to even start thinking about these sports, I think that's a great first step. So if we can provide that, whether that's through social or, you know, whatever we can do in order to expose them, I think that's great. I think also just educating people that there are public courses, there are certain resources for them that they can take up. And that's a great first step, or that's a great second step for us. But also hosting free clinics for kids, we like to do that, or partner with certain organizations that that's their main objective is to give access and education in these sports specifically to kids in underprivileged communities. So I feel like, you know, when we were living in Virginia, we partnered with this group called City Kids dc And what they did is they took a cohort of students. So you start from 6th grade, it's from 6th grade to 12th grade. And every year they take these kids to Jackson Hole for summer break. And so they learn how to, like, hike and fish and all of these amazing, life enriching outdoor experiences that you wouldn't get if you grew up in D.C. right. Like, you just don't have access to it. So it was amazing for us to partner with an organization like that. And so I think as we grow and scale, we want to continue building out these programs in a very meaningful way.

[Vivian Tew]

Mm.

[Marlon Muller]

Yeah. That's good.

[Vivian Tew]

It's always been about the mission.

[Marlon Muller]

Yeah, indeed.

[Jackie Sky Muller]

I think then, if not, then why.

[Vivian Tew]

Yeah, you know, you didn't do it for the money.

[Jackie Sky Muller]

This is not an. I don't think apparel is the industry we go into. It was necessarily about the money.

[Marlon Muller]

It wasn't about the money for sure. But, you know, to add on to what Jackie was saying, the clinics. We were really surprised at the reception that we received from so many of the community when we hosted these clinics. And we told them that the clinics, the proceeds from the clinics were gonna go to sponsor underprivileged kids in the city to give them exposure to what it's like to be on a farm to ride horses, to tack.

[Jackie Sky Muller]

You know, I think you should go into. I think you should explain the polo clinic specifically, because that was. Yeah, that's a very hard sport to get into.

[Vivian Tew]

Yeah. Can I get into that now or. No? Cause, like, I don't own a horse or, like, have a place to stable it.

[Jackie Sky Muller]

Yes, you can.

[Marlon Muller]

So I'll give you the background how this came about. So we moved down to Virginia from New York. My daughter had ridden horses. So I was involved in the horse community as an investor.

[Vivian Tew]

Yeah. Okay.

[Marlon Muller]

For my daughter's horse, a patron of the equestrian sport supporting, you know, her hug.

[Vivian Tew]

I love that your daughter is a horse girl.

[Marlon Muller]

Yeah, she was. She was. She's grown out of it, unfortunately, but.

[Vivian Tew]

But Marlon got sucked in.

[Marlon Muller]

Well, so we. We moved down to Virginia and we bought a horse farm and so.

[Vivian Tew]

You bought a horse farm?

[Marlon Muller]

Yeah, we bought a horse farm.

[Jackie Sky Muller]

Yep.

[Vivian Tew]

I don't think I knew that.

[Jackie Sky Muller]

Yeah, we were just full on, like.

[Marlon Muller]

Like, literally the week. Two weeks after we bought the place, there was like, the hunt that came through our property.

[Vivian Tew]

Yes. The drinking thing.

[Marlon Muller]

Well, that's why people do it.

[Jackie Sky Muller]

Right, I know, I understand.

[Marlon Muller]

Right. But let me clarify. The drinking thing is a whole bunch of really posh people on these horses with really tailored jackets. And, you know, there's dogs and I.

[Vivian Tew]

Just refer to a sporting event. As that drinking event.

[Marlon Muller]

Yeah. And then they all have a flask.

[Vivian Tew]

Yes, of course.

[Marlon Muller]

So we must have had, like, 30 riders come to our property. And so in that part of the country, horse riding is everything. So people do the hunt, like, two, three times a week. So Jackie's like, well, I'm going to take riding lessons. Okay? And Kingsley's riding. She's like, well, what are you going to do? And I'm like, what do you mean? I'm gonna watch you guys do your thing. She's like, no, you gotta be part of the community. So I said, okay. She goes, look, either you fox hunt, which I think is crazy.

[Vivian Tew]

Yeah.

[Marlon Muller]

Or you play polo, which I found out is crazier than fox hunting. But I didn't know that, like, at first. I was like, anybody can play polo. And so I Googled where you.

[Vivian Tew]

I love that.

[Marlon Muller]

Where you can get polo lessons.

[Vivian Tew]

I love when experts say. So I googled.

[Jackie Sky Muller]

I googled polo lessons near me.

[Marlon Muller]

Literally. I called two, and this one guy answered his phone. I'm gonna give him a plug right now. His name is John Gobin. John Gobin, who ended up becoming my polo coach, was like, marlon, come on down here. Can you come right now? And I'm like, right now? He's like, yeah, right now. And he's like, where do you live? I'm like, this is where I live. He's like, okay, I'm a mile and a half from there. I said, oh, cool. Okay. So I get my car and I go. I get over there, and there's, like, 40 horses getting ready to be put into these trailers, shipping them down to Wellington for the season.

[Jackie Sky Muller]

Because it was getting cold.

[Marlon Muller]

It was getting cold. So he makes me sign a waiver.

[Vivian Tew]

Which is like, if you crack your.

[Marlon Muller]

Head, I'm not liable. I'm not liable. And I get on a horse, and literally, I follow him into this arena, and he walks me around in a circle on the horse, and he's like, okay, I think you're good. And he puts a mallet in my hand. And immediately, once the mallet was in my hand, I forgot about the horse, which I was nervous about, and I started riding normal. And then he threw the ball down, and I was able to, like, follow after the ball. And so in that first session, I was actually doing something, and I was like, this is really cool. And then he leaves, and it's like, look, I'm going away for, like, three, four months, but you can come here every day. I'll have somebody train you, and you can play if you want to. And so that's what I started doing. And when the season came, I was able to play and compete. And so I tell everybody that.

[Vivian Tew]

Are you just like a prodigious polo player or could I do this too?

[Marlon Muller]

Oh, 100%. You can. I didn't know how to ride horses prior to that day, but I know it's. It all came together. And so my idea, I was like, listen, we gotta make sure that people understand that it's not as monumental to get into this as you think.

[Vivian Tew]

Yeah.

[Marlon Muller]

So when we hosted the clinics, everyone that came was just like me. And I told him, I'm like, trust me, I'm gonna walk you around. I'm gonna put in literally every single person. I did the same thing to them that he did to me. Put the mallet in their hand, I put the ball down, and everybody started riding. And so that's how people learned to ride. And then they started playing. So from that clinic, we must have had 20 people that are now regular polo players that play every weekend because of what we expose them.

[Jackie Sky Muller]

And they live in, like, D.C. and.

[Marlon Muller]

They live in D.C. they drive out. They drive 45 minutes out.

[Vivian Tew]

They're like lawyers and accountants.

[Marlon Muller]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's a. It's a thing that once people are exposed to it, it's amazing, you know, how much fun it is. But it's also addicting too. It's like, you know, and what a.

[Vivian Tew]

Nice thing to have a hobby, because I think something a lot of high achieving and especially working professionals struggle with is people ask you at a party, the first thing they ask you is like, what do you do? And the answer is always your job. And there's so much of your self worth tied to that job. Wouldn't it be nice if some of who we are and what we do were the things that actually brought us joy versus just brought us money?

[Jackie Sky Muller]

Totally.

[Marlon Muller]

Absolutely. Your identity.

[Vivian Tew]

Yeah, your identity. Exactly, exactly. So I do want to chat a little bit about how you feel like having a fashion brand is different versus having other companies. Marlon has made a couple jokes now at this point, like, what is specifically challenging that you would want to share about running a clothing brand?

[Jackie Sky Muller]

So I think that we're in a really interesting time because I think the way that people are running their business is shifting.

[Vivian Tew]

Yeah.

[Jackie Sky Muller]

A lot of the fashion business before was based on your wholesale accounts. It was about getting into Bergdorf or, you know, Barney's and having the right. Yeah, I know. I used to work there. I was a fashion director there. For. But anyways, so I think before it was all about the wholesale accounts and where you were being stalked. And now I think because of Instagram and Shopify and all of these different platforms, you can create your own business for a niche community and have a very successful business without ever having any wholesale. And I think that's a really important thing to note because then you can stay true to what you are as a brand and who you are and the people that you're serving versus listening to your buyer who says, oh, we love this dress. We need it in red. And in your head you're like, I would never make that in red. But you're trying to do it because you're, you know, you're selling, you know, you're selling to Keeper. Exactly. And if that's what they're telling you, you know, that's. That you feel like as a designer or a, you know, a product creator, that's where you need to go. So it's nice to be able to own your client now and have that direct to consumer relationship where you can really understand who they are, what they're buying, how often they're coming back. And again, I think you can make those informed decisions to kind of strengthen your business versus continuing to recreate something because your buyer is like, well, we need more. We need to, you know, we need more of this or we need more of this, or you need to add, you know, ski, or you need to add outerwear. And maybe you don't want to do that or you're not ready to do that.

[Botox Info Voice]

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[Jackie Sky Muller]

Because all of that is a financial investment. So it's just great to be able to own your client and really hone in on what works for you. And I would say essentially season after season, like, trim the fat and get smarter about who. Who your brand is and what you're. Who you're serving.

[Vivian Tew]

Yeah. Ooh, I thought. I felt like that was a really, really strong answer.

[Marlon Muller]

It was.

[Jackie Sky Muller]

Do you agree?

[Marlon Muller]

I do agree. I do agree.

[Vivian Tew]

And do you feel like consumers are also getting smarter in that they're really mindful now about what they're buying? I think we've seen it happen in the beauty industry in that kind of the old guard, which used to, you know, run everything, have every brand is now trying to keep up with new, younger, more edgy, more startup y feeling brands that literally their entire marketing department is just TikTok like, how are you guys navigating that new space? And how are you making sure that you are speaking to your consumer?

[Jackie Sky Muller]

Do you want to take this?

[Marlon Muller]

Go ahead.

[Jackie Sky Muller]

I think, you know, if you can stay authentic in your marketing or in.

[Vivian Tew]

Your outreach, that's like the number one most used word when it comes to social media. Authenticity.

[Jackie Sky Muller]

I just think it. I mean, and it's tough because obviously you, as the founders, you want it to be your own voice, but you also need to have a team in order to start being able to focus on other things. But I think across the board, if you can be authentic and if your team can align with your brand and what you stand for and your mission, then I feel like it will be communicated to the right client. And I think that. I also think that there are people who really care about our mission, and I think there are people that buy because of the mission, and I think there are people that don't, like, there are people that discover the product because an influencer that they think is cool, or they like what they're looking like, or, you know, they are promoting it because. And that's why they want to buy it. And so it's always hard to really manage the customer experience for every single person. But I think if you as founders and as directors of your team can always stick to your guns and try to be authentic, then I think it will eventually make. It will eventually reach your clients in the right way.

[Marlon Muller]

When you can ask you a question.

[Vivian Tew]

Yeah, please. I was literally just going to say, like, I'm your rich bff. Do I. Do you have any questions for me?

[Marlon Muller]

Yeah. So when. When you say that authenticity is the number one used term.

[Vivian Tew]

Yeah.

[Marlon Muller]

What do you think the common denominator is from people's perspectives when they say that?

[Vivian Tew]

I think people say authenticity, but I think the real world word is probably vulnerability. Like, it used to be product launch coming in T minus five days, and now suddenly we're seeing founders literally cry on the floors of their living room being like, I'm sick. I don't feel good. I'm supposed to be at the speaking thing tonight to make sure that I can make the right networking connections. It's not working. Everything is bad. Da, da, da, da, da. And we're watching it like it's almost like a soap, a drama. And then when a brand is ultimately successful, we were on the living room floor together. I was there with you, shooting in the gym. And then, like, it feels that much better. And I want to support that person that much more because I know the story. It's not just show me the fancy packaging. Like, I really do feel like, especially the next generation, like, I Remember, dial up Internet. Like, I know people in my life that I'm personally friends with that have never, ever lived a lifetime without high speed Internet.

[Jackie Sky Muller]

Mm.

[Vivian Tew]

And when you are raised in that environment, the metallic packaging doesn't get you anymore.

[Jackie Sky Muller]

Right? The.

[Vivian Tew]

The fun bubble letters, they don't get you anymore. It's really got to be a story, and people have to like, not just.

[Jackie Sky Muller]

The product, but the story and connect.

[Marlon Muller]

That's a great answer. That's a great answer. I think that bringing the consumer inside is really truth, which is real authenticity. And I think when we share that, the journey. Right. It's how we got here, but also why and if you can convey that through your design or through your storytelling. So so much of what we do with the product is create it based on an idea and a story so that people can relate and connect to it. But the thought behind that and how we got there is something that we try to share with people. So, you know, when. When we started out doing the different collections, each one was inspired by something that meant something to us. Therefore, it was easier for us to convey that in what we presented to the public. And so you'll find that people mirror the conveyance. So if you're demonstrating something in a certain way or presenting it in a certain way, they will do that same thing also. And then they have their own experience from it. And I think that sort of connection with the consumer is why we do what we do, because we know we. We actually connected with them when we see that happen. So when they send us pictures of them, you know, on the golf course or on playing tennis or playing pickleball, in that sort of aesthetic of the thing that we were selling or telling them, that's the connection. That's the validation that we are being authentic and true to what our brand stands for.

[Vivian Tew]

Yeah. And, Jackie, I don't know if you remember this. The reason why we initially got connected was because you were so vulnerable with me. You sent me an email that said, like, something along. I'm paraphrasing. It was something along the lines of, hi, Vivian, I've been watching your content. I'm pregnant, and I've been having horrible morning sickness. So after I throw up, I lay on the bathroom floor and I watch your videos. And I'm gonna be honest. I get so many. I'm very, very fortunate. I get so many opportunities of brands wanting to send me stuff to the point where my husband has gotten be.

[Jackie Sky Muller]

Like, no, no, no, no, no, no more.

[Vivian Tew]

You don't want this. We don't need this. You're not going to use this. Do not accept this. I had never, ever had a founder email me be like, so I just threw up.

[Jackie Sky Muller]

I just threw up.

[Vivian Tew]

I'm watching your content. You know, I have morning sickness. Like, I'm in my, you know, whatever, the first trimester, whatever you were in. And I was like, okay, let me actually read this email. And that is what made me stop scrolling because I normally go through. I don't know if you do this. I do email triage in the morning. Each email you get 15 seconds to catch my attention or otherwise it's deleted. Cause I know I'm like, okay, my manager's gonna answer that. Agent's gonna answer that. Da, da, da, da. Yeah, I stopped to scroll to actually read your email.

[Jackie Sky Muller]

I did. I have no memory, but I remember doing it, right.

[Vivian Tew]

I remember being there.

[Jackie Sky Muller]

I remember being there and obviously watching your content. But I don't remember the email that I sent you. But I'm glad, obviously.

[Marlon Muller]

But it sounds a lot like you.

[Vivian Tew]

But honestly, I think like the conversation is often like, how do creators get brands attention? But like these days it's also like, how does a brand actually imprint on somebody who they may want to work with or like send product or like, how do you make a difference? How do you make somebody stop when like, we're all just day trading attention right now, right? And it's like you're vulnerable. You.

[Jackie Sky Muller]

I think you also have to genuinely want to work with the creator, right? Like, you have to actually watch their content and, and really connect with them. And that's what's going to make you as, at least as founders, reach out to somebody like, hey, I really love this aspect of what you're doing and this is how I connected with it. And maybe that would stop someone.

[Vivian Tew]

You know, how do you guys choose now? Like, who your partners are? Like, how did the Keds thing come by? But like, how do you choose brands to partners with creators to partner with? Like, who are you sending product to? Like, how do you find that?

[Jackie Sky Muller]

So the Keds conversation was really interesting because I had always wanted to work with them when I was working at kith and it was just never something that came into fruition.

[Vivian Tew]

Yeah.

[Jackie Sky Muller]

And so I was like, when we started this brand, I was like this. The sneaker brand we have to work with is Keds because I knew their history. They had made the first woman sneaker they had made. You know, they were like the female first kind of product and they were a super old sneaker brand. I think you didn't want to be.

[Vivian Tew]

Like, oh, we'll work with Sperry, like a boat shoe or like Jack Rogers.

[Jackie Sky Muller]

Like, so both conversations that we've had. But I think because we wanted to make a tennis. A shoe that you could play tennis in, we were like, let's go after Keds. I mean, it's just such an iconic brand, and that's really where we wanted to. If we were doing a collaboration, that's where we wanted to start. But the woman, Nicole, at Keds actually reached out to us and she was like, I'm seeing you guys on all of these mood boards for, like, WGSN or like some sort of, you know, fashion forecasting thing. So everyone, you know, kind of were. They were putting our campaigns on their mood boards, talking about tennis court and all this stuff. And so. And Nicole from Keds was like, and no one on my team has reached out to you guys, so I'm gonna reach out and say, you know, we're friends, fans of what you're doing. And so it was such an organic conversation that we had. And they were amazing partners, and we have loved working with them. We've done two shoes with them so far. But that's really, you know, it was such an organic, you know, conversation. We were. It wasn't forced. We were both fans of each other, and it came together in a really natural way. And I think that's kind of when the best, you know, collaborations take place.

[Vivian Tew]

I love that. So I want to wrap us up. I can't believe we've been chatting for a minute now.

[Jackie Sky Muller]

I know, but you're rich.

[Vivian Tew]

Bff. This is net worth. And chill. Are there any money questions you want to ask me? Any ideas that we can bounce off together? How can I help you guys?

[Marlon Muller]

Hmm.

[Vivian Tew]

Y'all didn't think I was going to hit you with that?

[Jackie Sky Muller]

No.

[Marlon Muller]

Yeah.

[Jackie Sky Muller]

I'm genuine. Wait, I'm just going to jump in really quick. You can think. I want you to percolate on your question. I want to know. I know we talked about this a little bit, but now you're married, right? And you. You, even though you've been boyfriend and girlfriend or fiance for a long time, like, have you ever thought about starting a business with your husband?

[Vivian Tew]

At this point, we haven't. I will be honest in that. Boo is a huge supporter of what I do. He's always there to, like, be a sounding board, and sometimes he has to be a stand in videographer. But I think for him, he is more like you and that he really values stability and he has a really great trajectory in the financial space still. And he is the reason why we have health insurance. So I think for us it makes sense for him to continue having a more traditional job. We have health insurance. He's able to contribute to a retirement account for me there. Not that I'm not doing so on my own here, but there are benefits to each that are harder to come by if both of us were to have traditional W2 jobs or more non conventional entrepreneurial jobs. So the blend right now works better. Listen, never say never. If for some reason or other my business were to take off. Take off, suddenly it's an eight figure business. Yeah. I would tap him in. I would say like at that point we would need to have a conversation because I wouldn't be able to do it alone.

[Jackie Sky Muller]

Right.

[Vivian Tew]

But not there yet, but fingers crossed, maybe.

[Jackie Sky Muller]

Simone. Simone, I love it.

[Marlon Muller]

And where do you see your business going over the next three to five years?

[Vivian Tew]

Oh, mine. Listen, I think it's. I really want it to become a media empire. I started my brand on digital, but I'd like to take it, you know, in multiple different avenues. Obviously we're doing a podcast right now. I am working on a second book. I would love to get into the TV space, but ultimately I would like to have some sort of product or service that I'm able to provide directly to the folks at home versus having to rely on being essentially an entertainer. Some really great advice that my friend Tiffany Alice gave me. She is the budget Nista.

[Jackie Sky Muller]

I love her.

[Vivian Tew]

She said to me, right now you're dancing for a dollar and it's a lot of dollars, it's good dollars. But you are still at the beck and call of other brands. You gotta be at a point where you just own it and other people at your beck and call.

[Marlon Muller]

Right.

[Vivian Tew]

And that was eye opening for me.

[Jackie Sky Muller]

Right. I feel like, I mean, and we talk about this all the time, right? Because I think there's like influencer product brands where you have to show up constantly, all the time, every day. And there are brands like Ralph Lauren that become its own, you know, like.

[Vivian Tew]

No one actually knows what Ralph Lauren looks like anymore.

[Jackie Sky Muller]

They do. I mean. Yes, exactly. He's not in the day to day. He's the logo. Totally. It's the aesthetic.

[Vivian Tew]

It's not like the old man who.

[Jackie Sky Muller]

Now taking a selfie to push a product. Right. And I think eventually all businesses as founders grow up. Maybe they want to get to that. I mean some people love being on camera and that's fine. But I'm always curious for people who are very much in front of the camera, like, how, like do you ever feel like I want to be able to like sit in the backseat sometime or maybe have other people be on the podcast or hosting the podcast? Like, how is your take on that?

[Vivian Tew]

I think I'm an egomaniac, so. No, I'm just kidding. No, I think for right now, I really do love making content. I love, you know, putting together a little script and doing the filming. And I'll be honest, I've never liked editing. That was one of the first things I tried to delegate when I was starting to hire. But I think content right now serves me being front facing. But over time especially, I think as I start my family more like traditionally, like with kids and stuff, I'll want to take a step back. There will be days where I don't feel like filming and I think that's a conversation that is going to come fast and furiously. And to your point, I might need to think about it a little bit more because it may serve me better to be behind the camera instead of in front of it all the time.

[Jackie Sky Muller]

Do you want to have kids?

[Vivian Tew]

Yeah, I mean, I'm going through the embryo freezing process right now.

[Jackie Sky Muller]

Oh, you are? Okay.

[Vivian Tew]

I know that I'm also super hormonal, but it's, you know, it's been real, like it's very expensive process. I mean, I feel very, very fortunate. It's 20 grand for the egg freezing process, 5 grand for the drugs that you actually have to take. It's $10,000 on top of that to actually put it into your body again or put it into a surrogate or what have you. It's just that's you're looking at 35 grand and that's for one cycle.

[Jackie Sky Muller]

And I think if you want to store them right, like it's a grand.

[Vivian Tew]

A year to store them, freeze them. So it's like even you're paying for the time. So it's not cheap. But it is a conversation that my husband and I are having and I'd love to close us out with where do you guys see both your brand but also your family going in three.

[Marlon Muller]

To five years, I can tell you where it's not going. We won't be having any more children.

[Vivian Tew]

Oh, okay.

[Marlon Muller]

After this one.

[Jackie Sky Muller]

Yeah. Well, I don't know when this is airing, but people don't know. I mean, I don't want to say people like, we're not whatever celebrities, but I am pregnant again. I know, congratulations. There's an exclusive there. So after this child, I think we're done having kids. We have four at home now. And then we'll have one more full house. Very full house, very busy. You know, we have kids of all ages. So that really has spread us thin in terms of like trying to be at every practice and game and, you know, after school activities and all of that. But I think as a brand, I think as a brand we want to lean into more, bringing in more technical elements into the actual product and getting smarter and getting better at being more sustainable and just creating something that continues to have best in class performance. And like I had mentioned, like being able to put on more clinics and doing more for the mission of what we're actually standing for. And then I think it's just expanding more internationally. I think there's a lot of opportunity in Asia and in Europe and so I think we're looking forward to expanding internationally.

[Marlon Muller]

Yeah. And I think infrastructure wise, you know, getting to a place where the assets don't go home at night, you know, I think once we get to that.

[Vivian Tew]

Yeah.

[Marlon Muller]

Where the business is. The business is the business. Right. And so I think that is the goal over the next few years is to get to that point so we can then balance out managing that business and family as well.

[Vivian Tew]

Right.

[Jackie Sky Muller]

And also one of the benefits of living here in LA or living in California was that we wanted to potentially start producing more content that was specific to the stories, to the stories that we want to tell. Right. So I think there's a lot of untold history in our country that is beautiful and super inspiring. And if we can be part of the conversation and bringing that to life, we would love to do that.

[Marlon Muller]

Yeah. That would be actually getting back to where we started.

[Vivian Tew]

Yeah.

[Marlon Muller]

Is wanting to Storytel. So we think we'll be able to do that with the platform that we have.

[Vivian Tew]

Yeah. The new American dream.

[Jackie Sky Muller]

Exactly.

[Vivian Tew]

I love it. Thank you guys so much for joining me.

[Marlon Muller]

Thank you for having us.

[Vivian Tew]

Thanks for tuning into this week's episode of Net Worth and Chill, part of the Vox Media podcast network. If you liked the episode, make sure to leave a rating and review and subscribe so you never miss an episode. Got a burning financial question that you want covered in a future episode? Write to us via podcastourrichbff.com follow Net Worth and Chillpod on Instagram to stay up to date on all podcast related news. And you can follow me at yourrichbff for even more financial know how. See you next week. Bye.

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