← Neuro Performance By Andy Murphy
Neuro Performance By Andy Murphy
448: Dominik v. Eynern, The Hidden Code of Family Wealth: Mastering Psychology, Power & Legacy
01:13:34
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- [00:00]
A
Losing is much harder than winning the same amount.
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B
Totally, totally makes sense.
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A
That creates inertia. So coming back to what you asked earlier, why is there no change? Yes, it's lack of awareness, but it is also a fear based response. A fear based response of change. And how can we loosen that stuck state? It starts with awareness. Coming back to that with self awareness and contextual awareness.
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B
Welcome to the Neuro Performance Podcast with your host Andy Murphy. Join us as we delve into the advanced high performance tactics he uses with his elite clientele across the globe. Let's unlock a whole new world of business potential together. What's going on Euro performers And welcome to episode 448. Hope life is treating you amazing as always. As always, today's episode, really interesting episode and it's possibly a, an issue or concept, a thing that you might never even thought of. The other side of it, you might be so deep in this world that this is just what you're thinking about every single day.
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A
Right?
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B
And it's with a good friend of mine, Dominic Von Eenen, who. Well I'll just read what I've wrote because it's probably the best way to explain it. What's going on. He's a fifth generational family business expert and co founder of Family Hippocampus. And what we're talking about in this episode, it's a really deep topic and unless you're around ultra high net worth individuals, it's kind of not something that you've thought about and you might go, okay, it's just generational wealth, it's just rich people doing this. The impact is what you not understanding, right? So why do 90% of ultra high net worth families lose their wealth by the third generation? What you've got to understand is that this is relatable and very important for so many different reasons. One of the things that we discussed which I really thought was important to share at the start is the majority of the big businesses that even Walmart, right, that's a family created business, right. Obviously it's scaled into massive proportions but it is a family owned and originally run business. What you're going to understand about family businesses, you could talk about Walmart but you can also come down to your grandfather that created something and has passed it on to you. So when you start looking at this world through those eyes, this is an important topic because the other side of this, which I thought was fascinating in was the ripple effect in the economy and the, and the, and the towns and the cities that these family businesses are affecting they give millions and millions and millions of jobs to the world. Right. So what people don't understand is that like I showed you that statistic, right? 90% of families lose their wealth by the third generation. And it's what I want to talk about because if you look at it from an expanded awareness perspective that is millions of jobs that being affected in a bad way, right? Because then the jobs don't exist. But the way the modern media separates the ultra high net worth people from from the everyday people. Well there's so much more in common than you even realize or think. Like Dominic's a really close friend of mine and I am in this world but obviously I am not from that world. So for me to really understand the psychology of what general generational wealth is the psychology of the trauma that actually goes in from the parents and it moves down the generations. It's. It's mind blowing. Ultra high net worth and ultra poverty are more similar than you think. And you might be going Andy, what about the yachts? What about. Yeah, but that's it's not what we're talking about, right? We're talking about the damage, the damage, the psychological damage of and the neglection of poverty and extreme wealth. Remember we're just human. We're just human. We can't put people in categories. And I'm going to go through a few things so I'm going to read what some of the topics are but so what we're going to talk about is the number one reason family fortunes collapse and how to break the cycle the next gen leaders can take control of their legacy. The psychology of wealth transfer that most families get wrong. Why meditation Tai chi and structured reflection strengthens family governance. How family offices must evolve to meet demands of the next gen heirs and family offices has become a big term.
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A
Right.
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B
So what we're going to do is you're going to meet Dominic then the real reason that 90 of families wealth is lost the role of family governance in wealth transfer the psychology behind generational wealth success why family conflict is the number one wealth destroyer. Right. Do you understand doesn't matter how much money is there I we've all had or seen friends or families that when someone passes it's like the vultures, right? They're like vultures on seeing what they can get and imagine that when you're talking into the tens, hundreds and billions of dollars and so neuroscience the decision making for wealth sustainability how family hippocampus which is Dominan one of the co founders I absolutely love what they're doing, it's profound. They've got all Harvard professors and neuroscientists and it's understanding trauma. Okay, so practical steps, next steps and steps for the next gen leaders and family offices. So Dominic's company is Familyhip. Obviously. If you don't know what hippocampus is, do a little chatgpt. You'll, you'll understand why that's such a brilliant name. So family hyphen Hippocampus campus dot com. So if you're connected and listening to this and really want to truly understand what's happening in this world, then this podcast is brilliant. We go into such deep conversation about this. I'm chopping this up. It's definitely on YouTube so please go and watch it on YouTube. I will put that link. But the YouTube, you know, it's just, just search me. Andy Murphy Neuro Performance Podcast. I will pop up or Andy Murphy Performance is my handle. That's what it's called on YouTube. Right handle. But that's where I am. Go and check it out. I'll put the link in the, in the show notes as well. So I'm gonna let you get into this, this episode. It's brilliant. Just make sure that you're heading over to andymurphy Online. Andymurphy Online. Andy Murphy Online. Signing up for my newsletter. We're about to change it over because we've just done six weeks of lives and I hope that you tune tuned into some of those. It was, I was really proud of them and we had great feedback and the level of, of knowledge in there, it was huge. And so definitely go and check that out. Make sure you head over to andymurphy.online for a few different reasons. One, we have the eight figure thinker training system going live. Again, this is the most incredible training system for any level entrepreneur. It takes you through such a journey of psychology, behavioral psychology. It's tuning into subconscious sales. It goes into business strategy, goes into reading people, goes into priming and building your brain. All built around neuroscience, neuro, linguistics and so many other things. It's immense. Full certification in there, full curriculum in there and you just need to go and check it out. So that's in the eightfigarthinka.com but you can go to andymurphy. Online. The other thing that is we are putting out right now which you're going to want to be a part of. If you're a CEO, high performance salesperson, founder, business owner on any level, then you're going to want to be A part of the eight figure thinker training academy. Actually inside of the training academy is the training system, the course like 40 plus hours of amazing content and you also get on demand access to me group of coaches. You get these incredible master classes from, from world class guests, even including a good friend of mine, she just did an hour for me of wealth building and she's one of the top financial experts in the world to Saudi royals and celebrities and everything. So all that's inside the academy. Anyway, andymurphy online, go and check that out. And speaking of checking out, let's go and take a little listen to Dominic and myself's conversation. I know you're gonna love it, I know you're gonna share this and I know you're gonna understand so much more about the ultra high net worth. Okay neuro performers, you've had my really interesting intro. So you know I'm really excited about today's guest. I really am for a few different reasons. One, this might be a subject that you're not even really truly aware of the depth of this and how it really affects the world and the future. But also this is my friend and so Dominic Von Iinen. I'm gonna pronounce it correctly just because I got the bit of dyslexia, but welcome to the show sir.
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A
Thank you so much for having me, Andy.
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B
This is going to be an interesting chat because when me and you get together we kind of go deep. We kind of go deep. So today I think it's about, it's about really showcasing you Don. Because I really want to show the world Nick, like why you care so much about, about what's happening not just with the global socio economics but also about what's happening with, with families. And I think so many people can relate to this in so many different aspects whether they're coming from wealth or whether coming from generational wealth or whether they are building their wealth. I feel that families really can create an issue in people's lives if they're not really aware of what's happening. So that's my little rant over Nick. But what I want to really ask you, my first question is what is family hippocampus?
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A
Your family hippocampus is actually a think tank and it was created during the pandemic and the roots of family hippocampus lie in our own experience as family members. So I am a fourth generation from a fifth generation family business and we had some family dynamics as we always have and they were also fictional and it gave me to think what is going on? Why is it the way it is? Is there alternatives? So how does this work? And then I started to read these books, practitioner books.
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B
Okay, okay.
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And they were full of governance, how you should structure this and structure that and do this and do that.
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Sure.
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And I thought, this is great, but it doesn't deliver any answers.
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B
Okay.
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Because what I was inquiring about was actually social system dynamics.
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Okay, okay.
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A
And then I came to the conclusion, well, Nick, time to think yourself. And I approached the matter with behavioral economics and then also with cognitive neuroscience, neuropsychology, social psychology, and bit by bit worked my way through that. I also thought, you know, wouldn't it be better if we thought together? And I called up on a couple of family member friends and said, look, you know, let's think together and do something together. Because I'm sure I'm not the only one having these questions and not finding any answers to it.
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B
I love it. So you said, said something that. I love it. Right. So something over there you said was answers. So what's the problem? What's the, what's the, what are we, what are you solving? Because that's, that's the biggest thing. Right. Because you've obviously got a lot of the answers and obviously this is a growth journey for you and everyone involved in family hippocampus. But what's the main fundamental issues, Nick?
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A
Yeah, well, I appreciate it. It sounded like, is it a self help group? Yes, to a degree.
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B
To a degree it's got some of that.
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A
And. But how do you want to create impact and impact and why do we want to do that? So first of all, if you look into how important family businesses are, and your intro, you said it, it's phenomenal what families create in terms of businesses and wealth. And there's research saying 60 to 90% of the world GDP is created by family businesses. Right.
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B
You said that to me before and that actually blew my mind because people don't think about that like you were talking about Walmart even and these families. Right. And it was eye opening to me. It really was.
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A
So some of the businesses are listed and they're more corporate now, but they started as family businesses.
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B
Right.
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A
And there's also a body of research saying that family businesses are more resilient during crisis because they have a more conservative balance sheet. They have lower agency risks because they can decide much quicker than big corporations. One very important element is long termism.
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B
Okay.
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A
So they invest for generations. So there's also the saying, a quarter is 25 years in family business, not 90 days.
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Sure.
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Because you always have the next generation in focus rather than having your retirement pension.
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B
Right, right.
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A
So it is. It's a different. It's a different vibe in family businesses. Plus they have, in their utility function, everyone wants to optimize. They also have one very important element, which is the social, emotional wealth of the family. Not only.
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B
Interesting, interesting. And. And that's. And that's why me and you connected so, so well. And obviously we got to know each other in New York and then. And then in the Cayman Islands and over the past 12 months, which is, Which I've loved and I. And what I've seen, I think. And this is why I want to bring you on the show. Because, because everyone in. In, from what I've seen in, in it speaks about the wealth transfer. Right. The succession of wealth. But like what you're talking about, there's a whole other side of the equation that people are missing. And it's the psychological component, it's the emotional. It's the nervous system. Right. It's. It's being able to, well, think independently. Right. Apart Apart from what has been taught through generations. And. And that's kind of what you're disrupting, right?
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A
It is. When it comes to dependency and independent, I think is all about interdependency.
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B
Yes, yes.
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A
Rather than dependency or independency.
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B
Sure, sure. And so what, what. So what are the biggest issues? Let's even talk about. You could talk about your life and your background, because often people make the biggest changes in the world when they're coming from pain. Right. It becomes the emotional driver behind why we evolve, why we grow, why we shake. I love what you said in your notes. Shake the tree. Hey. And so. And so tell me about how this is, like how this has affected you or what your history with this is. Growing up, obviously, through multi generations and what you saw, what. What most people think, thinking and why this is such, like a passion for you. And it's something. I think it's more than a passion for you. It's like a life calling this. It's in. This is what you do. This is how you think. This is. This is your driver each day.
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A
Yes, it's strongly connected to my purpose.
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B
Yeah, yeah.
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A
To help families. And so, I mean, also, what you said before, you alluded to it. Families have a great power to create wealth on a social, emotional level for themselves, but also for their immediate social environment. Think of a family business in a rural area where these family businesses even provide the majority of Jobs in that region. So it's not only about the family. And when it comes to succession, it is even a greater responsibility for that family to get it right. Why again, not only for themselves, but also for their staff, for the wider social environment they are embedded in.
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B
Because you're actually, you're actually, that's what. And people don't realize that too or think about that. Right. Because you're actually family businesses are actually providing like economy. They're providing jobs, they're providing resources. Right. Which then have a ripple effect. And I think people miss that a lot, you know.
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A
And also for themselves. Because when it comes to succession, we often see inefficiencies or effects that are negative. And the so called family effect, meaning the influence the family system has on the business performance, which includes successions. Because performance, as I said earlier, is not about quarters, it's about generations. So that only can happen if the social system is a functional social unit, meaning it can act, react in an agile way as a unit. As a unit. Meaning we don't discuss ego, we don't discuss 20 opinions. Right. We have a way to find one opinion, which then is being enacted. Okay, that's a functional social unit.
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That's absolutely. That's a function of social unit. Yes.
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And a dysfunctional social unit is that we have all the communication tools, but when we come together, there's only conflict.
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Is that what happens?
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And that conflict is unproductive in the functional social unit. Conflict happens as well, but it is productive. And that's the very different point. And families are often in a situation that they are not synchronized. They do not represent a functional social unit. They are more dysfunctional than they think. It is hidden. It's about that hidden awareness. And to your question, when you asked what brings me into that purpose, what is my experience with that?
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Yeah.
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So we made it through two world wars, now we need to survive the shareholdership. And I also as a shareholder realized that in terms of risk return performance.
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Sucks in the business or the business. Right.
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A
However, I was in that world. Dysfunctional social unit, given to understand Nick, you need to shut up, you need to sign and that's it for you. That business is basically debt capital. And so critical thinking wasn't encouraged. Shareholder engagement on no go, which worked with my aunties and with my mom because they didn't read balance sheets.
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B
Right. Right.
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Now the fourth generation comes and says, yeah, well look, you know, we've been working in banks in M and A, so you know, we have sort of a, what I call a Belief bubble that is more geared towards KPIs.
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Right.
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Performance driven.
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Right.
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And there's another thing. We also have this belief bubble and believe in pluralism.
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B
Okay.
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Explain pluralism in a way that you are allowed to have your own opinion.
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B
Ah, okay.
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A
My uncle, for example, who's 92 now, he saw a different movie. He didn't grow up with that kind of pluralistic mindset when it comes to his business, which he also inherited from his father. He scaled it up. So we're all very happy that he did.
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B
Sure.
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But you know, if you said to him, I've got it, my own opinion. Are you right?
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B
Interesting.
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A
Right. And this is where the cookie crumbles. So. And then I, I had this. I had these many dilemmas, or we still have, but that was very pronounced, kind of. Right. I see. The performance isn't right.
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B
Yeah.
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A
But then at the same time, I cannot speak about this because when I tell what I see, what I believe, what I observe.
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B
Sure.
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A
Then that cut me down. And so that festered.
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B
I bet it did.
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A
And then I took a while to reframe and say, look, in the end, it's an investment, so I need to take care about my investment. Because. And that's another special feature in families. You can't sell your shares easily, you can't short them. So you are trapped in that system. So either you resignate or you move forward. But move moving forward was obviously, let's say, energized with lots of inertia by social systems and by conditioning.
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B
Yes, yes, yes.
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A
So, and, and then at a later stage, I also got kids. And then the next thing was, well, do I turn around one day and say, look, guys, sorry, business is gone. I didn't pay attention. So neither an option. But that was, that was not easy to work through.
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B
I bet you it wasn't.
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A
But as the next generation, if we don't shake the trees, we're not doing our jobs. So this is what drives me to actually work towards also our family system to become a more synchronized, functional social unit. So only then family businesses can actually be the change agents that they are because of the long termism, because of their agility, because of their investment into social capital when it comes to their employees.
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B
Yeah.
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A
What about the family itself? And from that experience, in combination with my research, I said it would be good, wouldn't it be good if we go around and make families aware of these issues? The key word, the key word is awareness, because what we are aware of, we can manage what we're not aware of manages us.
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B
Absolutely.
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A
And families are often. I mean this is human nature. We are uncomfortable with these things. They are not tangible. They are touchy feely. They are doing something. Looking into self, into others, into suddenly I can't escape by blaming someone. So it's all these things where also the connection to not only social, emotional wealth but also the financial wealth is missing. And when you look at the statistics, behavioral risks that arise from family dynamics, dysfunctional family dynamics sure. Have a huge weighting in the overall risk per view of any family.
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B
Interesting.
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A
And it is about. In one study, about 95%.
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B
Is that right?
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A
The biggest risk of family wealth is the family itself. Why Andy, is it under invested?
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B
It's. That's. Well, you. Maybe you've got the answer right. I don't know. But why is it under invested? Is it. Is it just because. Because people are so used to old school thinking. Which is. Which is very tangible. Right. That's a brick. That's this. But when we're talking about like ourselves as human beings, we're much more complex than society. We're much more complex than, than. Than habits and behaviors. Right. We're. It's the psychology component that feels. It's so missing in, in. In awareness, in, in. In. In the world in general, to be honest. But it. Especially in what you're talking about with family dynamics, it feels like. Do people not understand that the brain and the nervous system actually affect who you are and how you perceive the world? Do you think it's. It's just, Just not knowing or what. What are you, what are you thinking?
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A
I'm thinking that it is about laziness and comfort zones.
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B
Comfort zones.
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A
It is. It is easier to focus on the stuff that we perceive as factual.
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B
Okay.
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A
But then there's a longer discussion. Gosh. And what's effect? Because effect in the end is a social construct anyhow.
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B
It's just a belief. A belief. Right. A belief is just true with the information we have right now. Right. Until we add more information and then. Oh, the paradigm shift. And that's interesting. And so do you think this is like with the generation because you say you're fourth generation and I know we've got some friends in common who are part of family hippocampus, who. It's been a lot longer, multi generations. And do you think it's just pure habit? Because. Comfort zone. So if you've got money coming in. Right. And you've never had to have a fire under your belly to make change, I could see how it becomes really Easy to fall into. Into comfort or constantly getting external validation from things because you can buy the car, the house. Right. So you can kind of always, always kind of trick yourself into. Into giving yourself a reason why you don't have to look deep inside of yourself or, you know, there's always an escapism to the truth. Right. And so is it. Do you think it's just. It's just habit formation through generational that creates the comfort zone? Is it just lack of knowledge, which I know, which is a huge part of Family Kipper campus, which is the education side. I mean, what do you think the biggest. The biggest issue is that's creating these comfort zones and laziness?
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A
Well, I think this is ingrained in human nature. So in the end, look, there's a couple of dimensions starting also with social norms. So this is the way we always have done it. It's the way it's been done.
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B
Yeah.
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A
This is all this best practice, yada.
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B
Sure.
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A
And it's then also to do with guilt and shame. So, you know, I would like to change something, but I actually don't dare to. As in this situation, I. I was.
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B
Okay.
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A
Because of social norms, meaning you can't challenge the patriarch because.
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B
Because you are risking the security of. Of. Of the wealth distribution and that affects your kids. Is. Is that. Is that what the driver was with you? What?
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A
Oh, no. First of all, when you speak up against the patriarch, it risks your psychological safety, which isn't there in the first place, actually. So you take social, emotional risks by speaking up. They were answered by big emotional punches. Social rejection. And social rejection triggers the insula. So that little nervous system in our brain that is activated when we get a fist punched right into our face. Yes, it might be.
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B
Yes.
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A
So physical pain and emotional pain triggers the same neurological region, does it? And that's why we can speak about. I can speak about. I was emotionally bruised badly.
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B
Yeah.
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A
That's why people don't like change, because it is a risk.
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B
It hurts. It hurts. And then you have to deal with the hurt. And then. And. And the reason that caused the cause and effect. Right. So then you, You. You have to. Again, look at that. But. So let's talk about that a second. Nick, mate. It's like. So when you go back to your childhood, I don't know how, like, open. I know you're very open with stuff, and it's a very deep topic we might not even have for today, but it's like. Is it bullying?
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A
Well, you can label it. Label this as that. Yeah.
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B
Sure. But.
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A
In the end it's very much. These are fear based responses. Right. So change is always associated with fear.
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B
Yes.
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A
So our friend Amy is highly active, the amygdalae. Right. So that little substance, neurological substance, which is very much implicated in fear based responses.
- [34:19]
B
Yes, absolutely.
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A
And we also have a negativity bias, meaning we pay more attention to something that has negative effects on us and positive effects. Because the brain is there to keep us alive, not to make us clever.
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B
Absolutely.
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A
So we rather err on the wrong side.
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B
Yes.
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A
So.
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B
So I understand, I understand. So because of genetics in our brains wiring, we're looking for the constant search of, Of. Of certainty. And we're also. We don't want to. And it is also your family. Right. So. And this is also your parents. So you don't want to upset them. Them. Right. As a kid, you don't want to. To rock the boat. You don't want to make your mom or dad sad. Right. So it's about you. You then lowering your thinking or expansiveness to be able to fit inside of this box to make sure you don't rock the boat. Is that, is that kind of what was happening too?
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A
Which is another dimension. It's actually a coping strategy. You become a people pleaser.
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B
Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.
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A
For the fear of social rejection or positively formulated, you're trying to find ways of positive social interaction.
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B
Yes.
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A
Because when we socially interact, we exist. When we do not socially interact, we don't exist. Which then relates back to the fear based response, because we fear not to exist. Which also brings out dysfunctional behaviors that make us noticed. And that can be driving the yellow Ferrari through the village or drinking, gambling, drugging, being wild, being the revolutionary, just to get feedback. Even though it's negative, it creates significance.
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B
Right? It creates significance.
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A
Exactly. And the other part of the equation for change is, you know, I'm giving up something which feels safe. That's my comfort zone.
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B
Yes.
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A
And then I'm going into something which I cannot really fathom. There's.
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B
Yes.
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A
Of what I'm letting myself into. So the payoff of the new by the mere fact that it has a probability assigned is lower than the stuff I already know.
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B
Risk reward. Right, Risk rewards.
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A
And the other part that has been actually researched by Cayman Daniel Kaneman and he got the. The Nobel Prize for behavioral economics.
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B
Oh, wow. Okay.
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A
All that, the prospect theory, which shows that we are actually happier, happy one time to win.
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B
Okay.
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A
And we hate it two times to lose. And that's for the same amount, obviously. So 10% winning, we like it one time, 10% losing, we hate it two times. So we're not risk neutral. Interestingly the opposite. So you know, and then coming back to how I'm losing what I know. So this has already a higher expectation value plus our evaluation of that is even higher versus a situation which I do not know has a lower probability. And my emotional evaluation of that outcome is even lower because it's only winning. Losing is much harder than winning the same amount.
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B
Totally, totally makes sense.
- [38:15]
A
That creates inertia. So coming back to what you asked earlier, why is there no change? Yes, it's lack of awareness but it is also a fear based response. Fear based responsive change. And how can we loosen that stuck state? It starts with awareness. Coming back to that with self awareness and contextual awareness. Context is very important in our meaning making process.
- [38:45]
B
Absolutely. Which then allows you to have, create neuroplasticity because of the awareness. That's where it begins. Right. Because then the brain actually brings up whatever that is and then it's a two part process. Process with neuroplasticity. So then in that moment because of your awareness you're able to think differently and make a different decision which allows you the brain to repattern in a different direction. And but like what I love what you're doing is you're really bringing massive awareness to this whole, whole issue which is very brave. Right. It's kind of a new thing and it kind of puts you. And I'm sure you've had these arguments is probably the wrong word. Debates, discussions. When you're on panels, right. Or you're, or you're, or you're speaking or you're in conversation with somebody who doesn't believe in the psychological aspect of, of change or the psychological aspect of the issues with families. Right. It. You've probably come across that. Who, people who just, it's just, just push on. Right. Just there's no damage. It's. It's like it doesn't mean anything. Just it's about money. Just money solves everything. I'm sure you probably come across some of that. Right?
- [40:10]
A
Well I would say it's, it's also a form of escapism. At least in family office world people know there is such thing. But for the reasons we were talking about earlier it's also a fear based response. I can't, I can't grasp it and feel safe like it is. But that's an illusion of safety.
- [40:33]
B
Yes, absolutely. Do you think it's, do you think it's, it's probably they're not. Do you think they're consciously aware that they're making that decision not to even look at this component? Do you think that consciously, or is this purely like automatic for them, that the, that the resisting. Even, even, even opening the book and looking at what this is? Right. Because then it creates awareness and then they have to deal with it. Right?
- [41:02]
A
Yeah. Well, opening a book and reading about these things is a cognitive process which is very different from living through it. And this is also something where family hippocampus is markedly different because we are talking from our experience and with a lot of structured reflection and the research and not from an advisor perspective. And that's one thing. The other thing is how comfortable is a family officer maybe to say, yeah, I have spotted dysfunctionality. I tell the patriarch tomorrow, there's also maybe a lack of psychological safety, who I am to tell the family that they are dysfunctional. It's not that easy. It's better to say we've got a sharp ratio of one and a half.
- [42:02]
B
Right, Right.
- [42:03]
A
There's only one. Sorry.
- [42:05]
B
It's easier. It's easier. That's the key word. Right doesn't mean it's right.
- [42:11]
A
No, because to my mind, a family officer should not be a CIO only. A family officer is a family risk manager and a family risk. Family risk is a complex dynamical portfolio of three risk domains. The behavioral risks, they arise from family dynamics that we've got operational risks that arise from the family, but also from the investment side. And we've got financial risks risks, which is an asset liability problem. But these risks are all interrelated. So the family officer needs to analyze the risk portfolio and the dynamics of it and then find a hedge in the market, curate a portfolio that is actually mitigating the risk exposure the family has. So it has to be an integral part.
- [42:59]
B
Sure, sure.
- [43:01]
A
And the family officer doesn't have to do everything himself, of course, but understanding it and finding the right advisors and putting the portfolio into action, implemented, that's a lot that would mitigate family risks on a comprehensive level. Because that's another thing I hear all the time over holistic. Holistic, Holistic. Now, what does that mean?
- [43:25]
B
I was about to ask you that exact statement. What, what does it mean? What does it mean?
- [43:30]
A
Oh, from my. To my mind, it does mean that we understand the patterns of the social system, the dysfunctionalities, that we also do something about it, which entails to tell the patriarch, your family system is dysfunctional, and I know what to do about it. I put together a team of advisors.
- [43:49]
B
Gotcha. This all stems. So. So carry on. Carry on, Nick, Carry on.
- [43:53]
A
But that for obvious reasons we just discussed it. Because it takes courage.
- [44:00]
B
It takes a lot.
- [44:01]
A
It takes also relatability to. To the issue in itself.
- [44:06]
B
Sure.
- [44:07]
A
This is where found hippocampus can help, for example, at these conferences to speak about these things openly.
- [44:15]
B
Yes.
- [44:16]
A
Or we. We are hired to. To create events or hired to speak at events that are created by the service industry.
- [44:25]
B
Sure.
- [44:25]
A
So basically to have like we have now a conversation about this matter and sharing. Because vulnerability invites vulnerability and that creates these paradigm shifts. And I would like what you said earlier about changing your own patterns. So and here what helped me to change my patterns of thinking and feeling and also doing was the process of. Of normalization. Yes, yes, it is for me. It was for me. It still is. Reaching out to peers who are impartial listeners who can relate to what I'm talking about and my dysfunctional emotional and thinking patterns.
- [45:13]
B
Sure, sure.
- [45:15]
A
And that allowed me to accept myself, to develop self empathy and compassion.
- [45:24]
B
Beautiful.
- [45:25]
A
To get rid of guilt and shame because I was violating social norms. Remember when I said, patriarch, your performance sucks and I hold you responsible for it?
- [45:36]
B
Right, right. Doesn't go down too well.
- [45:40]
A
No. And I got. I. And I got the bill, so. And that was emotionally hurtful, as I said.
- [45:45]
B
So.
- [45:46]
A
Yeah, it, you know, before I got. Well, I was stuck. But that. What got me unstuck was the normalization process.
- [45:55]
B
The normalization rather than it being an echo chamber. Right, thank you.
- [46:00]
A
Exactly. Because obviously we spoke in the family about the whole procedures and the emotional injuries and what we did, we created this echo chamber. So it was a constant feedback loop. We started to help judge the uncle. One part of the echo chamber is also the confirmation bias.
- [46:23]
B
Sure, absolutely, absolutely, absolutely.
- [46:25]
A
Confirmation bias is once we have a.
- [46:28]
B
Belief.
- [46:31]
A
We look for evidence that this belief is true. And we would filter out anything that is countering that evidence.
- [46:42]
B
And then the brain works. Yeah, absolutely.
- [46:45]
A
Then combine this with two or three or four people sitting together and reinforcing each other is not something that is very. Has constructive outcomes.
- [46:59]
B
No. And it even deepens the neurology. It deepens the behavior, it deepens the pattern. Right. So it makes you even more stuck.
- [47:06]
A
Right, exactly. You become entrenched in your behavior.
- [47:09]
B
Yes, yes, yes.
- [47:11]
A
And so how to get unstuck. So for me, it was this normalization process.
- [47:16]
B
I love it.
- [47:18]
A
And this is also the very reason why we created another vertical to create impact. And that's the family hippocampus Club.
- [47:26]
B
Right, right. Tell me more about that, Nick.
- [47:29]
A
A peer driven launchpad for change.
- [47:32]
B
Beautiful.
- [47:33]
A
Peer development. It's like Alcoholic Anonymous.
- [47:39]
B
Right, right.
- [47:40]
A
So coming together, creating a safe space, finding impartial listeners. But it all starts with the self. To connect mind and body through meditation. Tai chi, yoga. So one of our members and directors, Gerardine, she's a specialist in trauma healing.
- [48:01]
B
She's great.
- [48:01]
A
And this is what we are talking about actually all the time. The emotional injuries cause trauma.
- [48:08]
B
Absolutely, absolutely.
- [48:10]
A
So we need to work to create that resilience and to reduce the reactivity before we face our demons.
- [48:21]
B
Absolutely. Because again, it's so important. It's the most important thing. Because most people, you might externally think they're very successful, but the truth is most people are running off of the emotion of trauma. Right. And it makes them perceive life a different way, which again, activates the amygdala response. Right. So you're constant in reaction. Does this all come back? The word you taught me, Nick, was, was omerta. Omerta. Is that correct, Omar? Right. Is this basically what's. What you're breaking free of? Is this the. Is this the disruption that you're like you're doing, or is this. The issue is the omata. And I'd love you to talk about that because you explained it really nice to me.
- [49:07]
A
So omerta is actually a concept from southern Italy.
- [49:13]
B
Yes.
- [49:15]
A
When you speak about your family's dealings, they kill you.
- [49:21]
B
Right? Literally.
- [49:22]
A
Literally, yeah. And that's another dilemma, because we spoke about the dilemmas as a family member. So one dilemma speaking up, the other dilemma. What. What do I do with this? I cannot speak about it because I was given to understand that.
- [49:39]
B
Right, right.
- [49:42]
A
And then also told me it's the same in every families, but then I like to challenge that.
- [49:47]
B
So every is a. Every's kind of a big statement, right? All and every.
- [49:55]
A
Yeah, sure, It's. It's a generalization. But what I found out is if we as family members don't speak about these things, it kills us. It kills our mental health. And this is what we want to break free from.
- [50:13]
B
Yeah.
- [50:14]
A
And the club obviously has also omerta rules. We don't kill anyone. But obviously Tattenham house rules are key to all that. So creating a psychological safe space, but also an otherwise safe space where we can openly speak about our emotional injuries, where we normalize our experience among peers, which then creates paradigm shifts, creates psychological freedom degrees.
- [50:46]
B
Absolutely.
- [50:47]
A
To stimulate evolution within the individual, but also eventually for the entire system. So what did it helped me?
- [51:02]
B
Yeah.
- [51:03]
A
Together with my cousins, we formed a collective belief that we must do something which is not good enough. It must be combined with the belief that you can do something which is obviously highly discouraged by the leadership.
- [51:23]
B
Yes, huge difference, Huge difference.
- [51:27]
A
And therefore we need to connect to ourselves. We need to become self aware. We need to create emotional intelligence, which is a learnable social skill.
- [51:38]
B
Yes, absolutely.
- [51:39]
A
Reframe and find the power from that social intelligence can emerge. So we understand others, social emotional patterns of thinking, feeling and behavior. And it creates not only self awareness, but also contextual awareness.
- [52:03]
B
Your environment. Yeah. And what's happening.
- [52:06]
A
And I mean I'll give you, give you a simple example. How do we, how do you navigate blindfolded when you're flying in your chestnut through the skies? Yeah, it's dangerous. You probably won't near impossible.
- [52:24]
B
Right, right.
- [52:25]
A
But this is what I mean. So when we create the clarity, but we cannot. But before we. That's a contextual clarity, but.
- [52:35]
B
Right.
- [52:36]
A
We need to take the blind folding off beforehand. That's why we start with the individual through the meditation, through the tai chi, qigong, yoga, then structured reflections, so obviously also using NLP coaching tools. And then move gradually into the contextual awareness where people then start to see. And that creates the paradigm shifts.
- [53:03]
B
Yeah.
- [53:03]
A
Boy, would I have wished for such a club when I was going through the fire. Really it wasn't there at the time. And again, you can see this is why we create such a platform, because we know what we're speaking of. And I also know Octavian, who is also a co founder of Family Hippocampus, had a similar experience with normalization. Yes, it is a heartfelt experience. And we were missing at the time while we walked through fire, what we are creating now for people who are walking through the fire. And maybe people even don't realize yet that they are walking to fire.
- [53:44]
B
Yes, yes, yes.
- [53:46]
A
But at some point they get burned.
- [53:50]
B
You stay in the fire long enough, you always get burnt. Which we're talking about neurological damage, we're talking about nervous system damage, we're talking about trauma. Right, Talking about trauma. And imagine if we looked at the paradigm shift of the world actually, actually being healed. Right. And that if, you know, let's just imagine that for a moment. If the world was healed, will there be no conflict? Because who really wants to hurt somebody? Hurt people. Hurt people. Right. So. So no one really wants to hurt someone. And every, every psychopath or murderer in the world, really. Well, they come from damage. Right, But I always say this, even In a murderer or a psychopath, they love their cat or their dog. Right. They are actually capable of love. And so if the world was healed, then everything would be different. So what you're talking about, if individuals were healed in the family, if families were healed as an ecosystem, then legacy changes, genetics change. And then what you're talking about very, at the start of this interview was the ripple effect from family businesses to actually the social implications which, which people aren't really aware of. Because if the family's thriving, the business is thriving, thriving, the individuals thriving, the community is thriving. Community could be a village, the community could be a country, the community, community could be the world. Right. So it's so important what you're doing, whether people are aware of it or not. And there's not that many people doing it, especially with your profile. Right. And that your, your access to, to, to audiences and your access to other family members. There's not many people with anybody doing it at this level.
- [56:02]
A
I, I wouldn't know. But it is very important that I can actually share my experience and energy and, and create change.
- [56:11]
B
I love it.
- [56:12]
A
And when you look into the world. Yes, I totally agree. Let's start with the, the small world, the world of family businesses and the members of family businesses. Because in the end, when we don't heal these traumas.
- [56:32]
B
Yeah.
- [56:33]
A
Then there will be relived and passed on through generations. And yes, on a behavioral transmission level and also on an EPID, transgenerational epigenetical level. Meaning these traumas change gene expressions that can be dysfunctional. Yeah. And are passed on to the next generation. The recent research suggests even stress levels, post traumatic stress syndromes are being passed on not only three, but seven generations.
- [57:01]
B
In my seven generations.
- [57:02]
A
Is that right? If they. Well, obviously mice don't go through psychotherapy, NLP or whatever.
- [57:09]
B
Maybe they should.
- [57:10]
A
Yeah, maybe they should. Well, obviously it's not the purpose of the experiments, but it kind of gives us an idea when we actually sort ourselves out before we reproduce, ideally, which obviously I for me is too late, but.
- [57:30]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But you can sort yourself out, which, you know, it does heal them, you know, because you, because the thing about what I know about you, Nick, the more I've got to know you is that like you're very one self aware, but you're actually under it all, you're very humble and humble is vulnerability. And vulnerability is actually a superpower that's actually full masculine energy. That's alphaness in the correct term, not coming from ego. That means you're able to walk into the fire to save the baby and know you're going to get burned. You know you're going to get burned. But the intent is so pure of why you have to go and save that baby that you're willing to put yourself in harm or risk or in this case, people eyeballs on you as you promote this concept. Right. And whether we're talking about actual wealth, which we are today, and the ripple effect and the, the real powerful reason behind why that's important from a global aspect, it also goes into the same understanding of poverty. Poverty don't go through a murder. A martyr. A martyr, Am I pronouncing it correctly? Sorry, I'll get it right. But people aren't necessarily going through that in, in a poverty dynamic, but they are going through the same or different traumas and they are going through passing the genetics on. So again, it goes back to healing is where I'm coming from. Right. The extreme wealth or extreme poverty, there's a lot of issues still that they probably correlate in some ways. Right. And I think for everybody listening, it's maybe this is the first time that you're hearing or even understanding this. But again, what Nick's given you is awareness. And I know that for you is like your number one mission at the moment, right. Is just creating awareness and awareness and awareness. So I suppose my next question is, I mean, with family hippocampus and the club, I mean, if somebody's there relating to this right now and going, do you know what? He's actually. Right. I've thought these things before, but I just don't know where to go or what to do. How does family hippocampus help? I understand the cycle, but what is the actual things? Like if we were to tick some boxes, what would be the things that you lead them through? Like, how does. What's the experience that people can get from being part of your community?
- [60:30]
A
Well, with the club, as I said, it is all about understanding. Because power, true power, comes from understanding, not mere strength.
- [60:39]
B
Yes.
- [60:44]
A
So in the club, we start with connecting to the self and then we connecting to the immediate social environment and learn how to do that and create that awareness. We then will create paradigm shifts in the participants.
- [61:05]
B
Right.
- [61:05]
A
And this is what we actually want to do, creating mind space. We are not here to tell people what to do, but to create the mind space to become active and agile for change.
- [61:20]
B
I love it.
- [61:21]
A
So people who say, I'm actually have this feeling, I'm not feeling well, that's A cognitive dissonance.
- [61:30]
B
Sure, sure, sure.
- [61:32]
A
And I'm not speaking about this because I was trained not to speak about this. Yes, but actually it festers kind of. And actually I would like to, if I could, I would, would like to change it. But I, I don't even know where to begin because I can't really grasp it. But this is a phenomenon in my inside myself. So what do I do with that?
- [61:59]
B
That's beautiful. Me. That's beautiful.
- [62:01]
A
So that's for the family hippocampus club. Or if, for example, I had a request. So there was this patriarch sitting on a stash of cash, 65 years old, two kids. And the mom said, you need to do something about succession. Oh, leave me alone, you know, you only want my money. So he refused to confront himself with his own, well, possible death at some point.
- [62:38]
B
Sure, sure, sure.
- [62:40]
A
The, the ephemeral being of Wasn't, wasn't, wasn't his to think about anyhow. So, and then that private banker at the time said, talk to him, tell him. I said, what's going to happen when someone goes there and tells him? He will become defensive and nothing will happen.
- [63:09]
B
Absolutely.
- [63:10]
A
So what we could do is we could create an event around some wine tasting or some fun activity with a couple of other patriarchs who, you know, already done it. And then it comes back to sharing, to normalization, to create a discussion also with next generous who are had good experience, not a good experience with their succession. And that would then create mind space and suddenly it would create paradigm shifts in this very patriarchy. Then it is his idea. How powerful is that?
- [63:51]
B
Yes, that, that, that's clever. That's clever. Right. Because then it's, it's coming from inside of them. Right. That, that's a whole different driver.
- [64:02]
A
Yes. And so for example, that would be one example. Then also, you know, creating workshops with a couple of families around how to plan for succession. And I don't mean tax or legal wise, we couldn't care less. We're putting the human being in the center. And the succession process is not between the successor and the patriarch.
- [64:29]
B
Right.
- [64:30]
A
It's a game for the whole family how to stage that. What could be alternative approaches to that? Again, it creates mind space. And then also, for example, when you think of the service providers who serve families, they basically only get the surface, they only get the outcomes. They don't understand the dynamics behind these outcomes because many families are not aware themselves. They don't let them in either. So in terms of understanding the beast better that you are advised we can help with workshops, which is also a positive effect for not only the quality of services you are going to be able to deliver, but also it is a very significant contribution to client retention.
- [65:32]
B
Yes, I think that, I think that that's huge about the service providers because you're right. Did they even think about this type? Because they're just. It's the tangibility of the monetary succession. Right. But what you're talking about is a whole different thing because if they understand the psychology, dynamics of the family, then it makes their job way easier. So much easier. Right. And that's what. Something you can provide. I don't think people are aware of that, you know, because I wasn't. But that makes so much sense. So much sense.
- [66:02]
A
Yeah. And they are also interested in another aspect. Having a social system, I. E. The family that is your client, and having 20 people in the group and 25 opinions to deal with. Where do you invest? What do you invest? How you did.
- [66:24]
B
That's a, that's a, that's a conversation that would probably go on for a long time. Right. Because everyone's again, got different, different version of reality.
- [66:34]
A
Of course, reality is subjective.
- [66:36]
B
Yes, exactly.
- [66:37]
A
But then you have, you may have the patriarch. And the patriarch says, I call, I'm calling the shots. You shut up. The next thing is when the patriarch is gone. Well, that, that, that banker, she did always what our father wanted to. Wanted to do. And now we're going to move somewhere else because I have a guy who does what I want.
- [67:04]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And they're just interested in their own preservation. Not really the true wealth preservation or the psychological preservation of the family. Right. Through longevity. They're more. They're just interested in getting paid themselves. Right. And keeping their own job security. So they're going to do what they're told rather than actually thinking.
- [67:25]
A
Well, in the end. Exactly. They're getting paid for executing the mandate and the mandate. When the mandate is only the patriarch. They are at risk losing the family system once the patriarch is gone.
- [67:42]
B
Because.
- [67:43]
A
The, the family system wasn't synchronized.
- [67:46]
B
Right, right.
- [67:47]
A
And then we're also coming back to the fact I want to be seen and I just. No one wants. Everyone wants to invest in oil and gas and I say no, we need to. It can be only green energy. I'm not ready to compromise because this is my way of being seen. And so, you know, I'm not saying something completely dispersed can be synchronized, but we can actually make efforts to create higher synchronous synchronicity levels. And mind you, a system is only synchronized in one point of time. The next logical segment, it already looks different because it's a dynamic system, constantly change. We need to, we need to work on it again. It's a matter of awareness because all too often we say, ah, it's the way it is. Fantastic. Done.
- [68:48]
B
Sure.
- [68:49]
A
We see this in every, in our everyday life. Again, coming back to the individual. We often speak to individuals and we speak to the versions of them that are no longer existing.
- [69:02]
B
Absolutely, absolutely.
- [69:04]
A
You always have been this and that and you've done this and that. What's wrong with you? Well, I've evolved. Evolved.
- [69:12]
B
Yes, yes.
- [69:13]
A
What do you mean?
- [69:15]
B
What do you mean? Right. That's who you are. So they create an identity and the identity is then for themselves. It's not for the person like it's for themselves because then it creates a safety mechanism for themselves because oh well, this is who you are. I know who you are, but it's not the truth. We should all be in perpetual motion of change. That should be what you do in life. Right. That's all you should be doing in life is, is evolving and changing and growing and expanding.
- [69:46]
A
Yeah, but the thing is you expanded and I didn't see the version I expected.
- [69:55]
B
Yes, yes.
- [69:57]
A
I don't want you to change because that gives me security. It's an ego driven response actually.
- [70:04]
B
Yes, absolutely, absolutely. And then the challenge with that becomes, is they see this person expanded and grown and even living a beautiful life. But they prefer to pull them down, back into their frame of reference because it takes so much growth and time and effort and energy and patience, pain to grow and expand. And, and so we go back into what? Well, it's easier not to, it's easier to stay in the comfort zone. Right. And oh, I don't know what's wrong with Jim. I don't know what's wrong with him anymore. He's, oh, he's lost his mind. Right. But it's their frame of reference. And I think you're on such a, such a powerful journey for yourself, for, for so many family members and, and for the world and, and ultimately family hippocampus is, is ultimately will be potentially and probably your legacy. Right. And, and, and it's a psychological legacy. I mean with your kids you can leave wealth, but what you're doing is creeping, creating ripple effects through, through, through, through generations. But from a whole the other, like we spoke about before, the other part of the equation, which is the psychological component, which is awareness, which is self worth. Right. And and healing and it's, it's. It's so important, Nick. And that's why I wanted to bring you on today. And as a gay, we only just scratched the surface because viewers listening, me and Nick really usually go deep into, into a lot of other topics. But I think this is a beautiful place to probably wrap up today. And, and it gives people an understanding. It shows who you are as a person, it shows your purpose, it shows the, the family hippocampus and it shows also the issue of what's actually going on behind the scenes that people, well, they're not exposed to or now they're becoming aware of. So what's the best way that people can find and connect with you personally, Nick? Because I'm sure there's a lot of questions. But also with Family Hippocampus, how are they getting this? How are they connecting?
- [72:26]
A
So we've got a website. It's family hippocampus.com and if people want to reach out, I'm very happy to talk about this on a very deep level, as you just alluded to and know. So please do write an email. It's D for Delta, V for Victor, E for Echo at family hippocampus or family -husocampus.com.
- [72:52]
B
Beautiful. I will put links everywhere, so no issues with that. But Nick, thank you so much for today. I really appreciate it. Always fun to hang out with you, mate. Always fun. And yeah, we'll talk to each other very soon.
- [73:06]
A
Looking forward to it. Thanks for having me. All the best, Andy. Bye bye.
- [73:09]
B
Bye bye. That's all for this episode of the Neuro Performance Podcast. Thanks for tuning in. Remember to stay connected, rate review and visit andymurphy online to take the next step towards unlocking your pure potential. See you next time.