#451: "The Silent Killer of Generational Wealth (No One Talks About This)" with Nicholas Charles FCCA

Summary

Podcast Summary: Neuro Performance By Andy Murphy

Episode #451: “The Silent Killer of Generational Wealth (No One Talks About This)”

Guest: Nicholas Charles, FCCA (Global Wealth Strategist)
Host: Andy Murphy
Date: May 9, 2025

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Overview of the Episode

This episode explores the “silent killer” of generational wealth: poor communication within families and a lack of holistic planning. Andy Murphy welcomes Nicholas Charles, a global wealth strategist and author, to discuss why 90% of family wealth is lost by the third generation, how family businesses impact economies, the emotional and practical pitfalls of wealth transition, and what the 10 Pillars of Generational Wealth are. The conversation is packed with hard-won wisdom, real-life stories (including Nicholas’s own family journey from wealth to loss to rebuilding), and practical advice for everyone—not just the ultra-wealthy—on preserving wealth and harmony across generations.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Human Side of Wealth Transfer (06:54–13:00)

• Universal Emotional Struggles: Nicholas shares that money challenges in families cut across cultures; emotions and communication are universal issues.

  “Money and the emotion around money is actually a human issue rather than a cultural issue.” —Nicholas Charles [09:45]

• The Cycle of Wealth Loss: 90% of wealth is lost by the third generation, primarily due to lack of training and poor communication.

  “First generation makes it, second generation saves it if you’re lucky, third generation tanks it.” —Nicholas Charles [23:37]

• Family Business Impact: Family-run enterprises have massive economic impact and their instability affects whole economies.

2. Communication: The Core Issue (13:06–22:00)

• Advisors Protect the Money, Not the People: Traditional advisors (lawyers, accountants) only focus on finances, missing the relational dynamics.

  “Families struggle to talk about what is truly important... people tend to push things they feel uncomfortable to talk about under the rug.” —Nicholas Charles [31:09]

• Conflict Isn’t Always Bad: Only destructive conflict harms families; open, honest conversation is vital.
• Ego and Generational Shift: The older generation must “park ego” and allow younger members to be heard, without judgement, creating a safe environment for discussion.

  “As the matriarch or patriarch... I am going to park my ego to one side and be open and listen to the next generation.” —Nicholas Charles [19:53]

3. Nicholas’s Personal Family Journey (23:19–30:26)

• Firsthand Experience: Nicholas’s family narrative mirrors the classic "shirt sleeves to shirt sleeves in three generations" story:
  • Great-grandfather was wealthy but didn’t train the next generation;
  • Grandfather lost the wealth;
  • Nicholas’s father struggled from childhood;
  • Nicholas now works on rebuilding and preserving wealth with intent.

  “By the time my father was eight years old, it was all gone. He had to work from the age of eight.” —Nicholas Charles [25:52]

4. The 10 Pillars of Generational Wealth (34:15–72:57)

Nicholas introduces his framework for family wealth preservation—a holistic system, not just focused on money, but on the entire ecosystem of family, business, and human well-being.

Key Pillars Discussed:

• Communication
  • The bedrock of all family and advisory relationships, necessary for trust.
• Health
  • Not just physical, but also mental—includes family, advisors, and business leaders. Without health, the system fails.

  “Have you bothered to ask the question of how healthy are my advisors, especially the ones I rely on?” —Nicholas Charles [35:51]

• Education
  • Education is not just academic—training the next generation to be responsible beneficiaries; includes outlets for support and venues to explore identity.
  • Emphasized the need for safe outlets (like coaching) where next gen can discuss without judgment.

  “Have that safe space to learn... what it is that they want in their lives...” —Nicholas Charles [41:10]

• Vision
  • Families need a shared, evolving vision for what the wealth is for and what the family hopes to become.

  “If you don’t have a vision and you’re just heading into a dark space, then don’t be surprised when things go wrong.” —Nicholas Charles [47:17]

• Philanthropy
  • Giving brings fulfilment and unites families around a purpose bigger than acquisitions. It’s the glue that helps bind disparate generations and interests.

  “Philanthropy is the glue that keeps the family together.” —Nicholas Charles [54:58]

• Governance
  • Structures, roles, regular family “boards”—these create accountability and smooth succession.
  • Governance without communication is pointless; all family members should participate in rulemaking.

  “No point having a family constitution if you’ve got no involvement with the family members—pointless piece of paper.” —Nicholas Charles [59:44]

• Structure
  • Legal frameworks: trusts, companies, pensions. Families often don’t even know what they own.

  “Not having a clear picture of your structures means you haven’t got a clue what question to ask.” —Nicholas Charles [64:27]

• Documentation
  • Where are the actual documents? Poor documentation leads to confusion, court battles, and fraud.
  • Advocates for blockchain-secured documents to ensure transparency and authenticity.
• Advisors
  • Who are they? Are they known to heirs? Are they trustworthy? Advisors must work together, not in silos.

  “Some of the quirkiest stories—I’ve found, husband will pass away, wife did not know anything about any advisor, and ended up going through his wallet to find business cards...” —Nicholas Charles [70:11]

• Assets
  • What do you own? Where is it? Keeping a clear inventory, accessible and up-to-date.
  • Many assets and investments go unclaimed because no one else knows they exist.

  “He had to then go out and find that person [a shareholder] in order to pay him his check.” —Nicholas Charles [74:00]

“It’s an ecosystem... Everything is connected. The mind, body, connection... It’s the generational connection, the emotional intelligence, the social intelligence, the self awareness, the education.”
—Andy Murphy [45:31]

5. Tech Solutions: The Dante Platform (37:11–37:24; 65:48–67:33)

• Nicholas co-founded Dante.io: a digital ecosystem to track all 10 pillars for families—documentation, education, advisor accountability, and transparency for the next generations. Promotes plug-and-play continuity, not dependency on one ceo/advisor.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Communication:
  “Communication is the number one reason why families will fail to transfer wealth successfully—all stems from communication. But how many people are out there to speak about effective communication, how to speak to the next generation?”
  —Nicholas Charles [19:10]

• On “Hope” as a Wealth Strategy:
  “People rely on hope as their generational wealth strategy—like by some sort of miracle and through the strategy of hope, everything will be okay.”
  —Nicholas Charles [31:37]

• On Identity and Next Gen:
  “You can’t expect someone who’s the second generation to think like the first generation.”
  —Nicholas Charles [17:57]

• On Philanthropy:
  “It’s so important for fulfillment. Otherwise the money becomes empty—the energy behind or the emotional driver behind the money, without the heart centeredness, without actually giving, becomes empty.”—Andy Murphy [52:02]

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Timestamps for Important Segments

| Topic | Timestamp | |-------------------------------------|-------------| | Opening and episode context | 00:00–05:55 | | Nicholas’s background and intro | 06:35–08:24 | | Why is generational wealth hard? | 13:06–16:00 | | Communication as the silent killer | 17:57–22:00 | | Nicholas’ family story | 23:19–30:26 | | The 10 Pillars introduction | 34:15–37:11 | | Health, Education, Vision discussion| 34:35–49:06 | | Philanthropy | 50:19–55:58 | | Governance | 56:14–60:57 | | Structures, Documentation | 61:53–68:39 | | Advisors, Asset management | 68:49–74:35 | | Closing thoughts, book recommendations | 75:32–77:15 |

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Resources Mentioned

• Nicholas Charles’s books:
  • Generational Wealth (with Antoinetta Proctor) [Amazon]
  • The Four Fundamentals of Family Prosperity [familyprosperity.com]
• Dante platform: [dante.io]
• LinkedIn and YouTube channels (see dante.io for links)
• Andy Murphy’s Brain Collective and Eight Figure Thinker [andymurphy.online]

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Key Takeaways

• Poor Communication is the hidden destroyer of family wealth; most “solutions” focus only on financials.
• Every Family is Unique: No one-size-fits-all answer—holistic frameworks win.
• Planning Must Be Proactive: Don’t rely on hope or avoid tough conversations; create systems, roles, and vision now.
• Philanthropy and Vision Provide Meaning: A shared, bigger purpose glues families together.
• Tech Can Help: Digital platforms offer plug-and-play solutions and intergenerational transparency.

Anyone (not just the billionaire set) can learn from these insights—generational wealth is about well-being, not just money.

Transcript

[Nicholas Charles]

Have the conversation first. But it's difficult until someone steps up and say, you know what, as a family, this is what we're going to do. And as a family, especially with first gen, as a, as a family or as a matriarchal patriarch of the family, I'm going to park my ego to one side.

[Andy Murphy]

Yes.

[Nicholas Charles]

And I am going to be open and listen to the next generation and we're going to have a discussion with. Whereby there is no judgment.

[Andy Murphy]

Right.

[Nicholas Charles]

In a safe environment. Very difficult.

[Podcast Intro Announcer]

Welcome to the Neuro Performance Podcast with your host, Andy Murphy. Join us as we delve into the advanced high performance tactics he uses with his elite clientele across the globe. Let's unlock a whole new world of business potential together.

[Andy Murphy]

What's going on, Neuro performers? And welcome to episode 451.

Hope you're amazing as always.

I always ask because I always mean it. And today we've got a really good interview. I hope, I hope you see in the changes in the podcast, right. Whether you love it or whether you don't, I want you to pay attention because what most podcasts are about is they're about giving you little bits of information, right? What I try and do or do my best is bring on amazing people. I also give you behind the scenes tactics and strategies and I'm really showing you the blueprint and tactics of how to build wealth, how to make wealth and how to keep wealth. And that's what today is about. I mean, obviously we've had. If you haven't listened to this episode, you definitely need to go and listen to this episode with Richard Wilson. That's episode 450. He's the founder of the world's largest family office club. And remember what a family office club, if you don't know, or a family office, I should say, if you don't know. Ultra high net worth families, they want to make sure that the kids get it. They want to make sure that they do philanthropy, they make sure that they want to really just preserve and grow that money as we all would, right? So what they do is create a family office. And that's what we go into today. Because what's wild, right, what's wild is that 90% of wealth disappears by generation three. And what you don't understand about these wealthy families is that they, they give millions of jobs to people, right? They give millions of jobs to the everyday people. So having them keeping their companies going through generations, well, it's a really good thing. We definitely get into it today with today's Guest Good friend of mine, Nicholas Charles, fcca. He's a global wealth strategist. He's from the uk so he's got. But. But he's from a different part of the uk. He's from London.

[Nicholas Charles]

Right.

[Andy Murphy]

I'm from Liverpool originally. Although my accents kind of changed over the years.

But great conversation.

He's been doing this a long time. He is coming from next generational wealth, you know, so he's. His granddad actually made the money. His dad didn't pass those skills on so he lost the money. And then guess what, Nicholas is making it back and it's such an interesting, in such an interesting world. And the reason I again I'm reiterating this is because I want to show you, give you all the stages. Obviously I work with, with hedge fund managers, CIOs, chief investment officers, deal makers, elite salespeople and I make them, well, just scale. I make them do things that they couldn't do, think they could do in getting the results that they get. Right. So that's what I do. And head over definitely to Andy Murphy. Dot Online. Andy Murphy Online. Andy Murphy Online. And get on what we'll get on the Brain Collective because it's. Yeah, well you got the podcast. You get weekly insights and tactics and strategies and then every month I'm actually going to be doing a live training and you might be thinking, andy, I'm not a billionaire. What are you talking about? Listen, this is for everybody. This is for everybody. I just want to help you because we go through what I call my triad. My triad is subconscious or subliminal sales and influence. We go through the neuro performance side to make sure that you're firing on all cylinders. And then we also go through my other part of the triad which is Blue ocean business strategy.

[Nicholas Charles]

Yeah.

[Andy Murphy]

How we position you, right? How we grow your business. Right. The business could be a startup, the business could be $100 million hedge fund. Doesn't matter. It's all the kind of the same thing, right?

So make sure that you're signing up for that.

AndyMurphy online. What else? I think you're gonna really love this episode. Doesn't matter where you're coming from because what we can do is relate. We all have parents. Well, hopefully you got some parents, right? Whether they're still alive or they passed away or if you haven't, then you're going to understand this even more because it's all about trauma, guilt, silent sabotage of the succession, communication, tax strategies, philanthropy. We get into it all today with Nicholas and he's a great guy, you're going to absolutely love him. And make sure that you're heading over to Dante IO to see what he's got going on creating there because that is pretty damn special too.

So I'll shut up.

Head over to Andy Murphy online once more, jump in there and if you want to work with me, see what the eight figure Thinker members club is all about because it's pretty amazing what you're getting in there.

Just head over, join, connect and yeah.

Let'S see what we can do together.

Until the next time, keep kicking butt.

And I will see you on the next episode.

Okay, Neuro performers, welcome to another episode. This is a small special one and I mean this hand on heart one for a start, it's a fellow Brit so you're gonna have to put up with two accents for sure. But Nicholas Charles is a new friend.

And I'm becoming a really good friend.

So I'm really excited about this show because over 20 years of experience, Nicholas has advised ultra high net worth individuals on wealth preservation, tax strategy, asset protection, plus a globally recognized expert in generational wealth, best selling author of not one but two books. And we're going to get into all of that. Nicholas Charles, fcca, welcome to Neuro Performance.

[Nicholas Charles]

Thank you so much, Andy. It's an absolute pleasure to be here.

[Andy Murphy]

Yeah, I'm really excited, I'm really excited about this because what was fascinating, let's rewind. How you and me even connected. Talk about synchronicity, serendipity, whatever you want to call it. But we have a mutual friend in common. Yes. And it's kind of a random friend in common. And then me and you met up for lunch in London and we start chatting. We were getting on really well and your business partner was there from Dancy and we were, we were having a good chat and then I was like, oh, I checked your LinkedIn out, Nicholas, I checked your linked out. Do you know these people? And it was listed like five people. And you were like, yeah, they're on my board of my company. And I'm like, there's some of my really close friends. And then we were going through and it's like, okay, maybe we were meant to meet. So funny how that works, right?

[Nicholas Charles]

The universe works in a very strange way to query it. Yeah.

[Andy Murphy]

Yes, it does, mate, it does, it does. So you're sitting in London right now, how's life?

[Nicholas Charles]

Life is good, yeah, certainly can't complain. It's interesting. It's a fascinating world. So you know Pivoted from, you know, being a tax accountant to working on this new tech platform startup called Dante's that you rightly said. And we're helping families to digitize their generational wealth.

[Andy Murphy]

I think it's huge. And Maddie, your business partner and yourself, you spend a lot of time in Dubai right now, right?

[Nicholas Charles]

Yeah, Dubai and in India. I mean my next trip has already been planned so I'm flying over to, to India in a couple of weeks time. We're doing, I'm doing two events, one in Ahmedabad and the other one in Mumbai. And that's not with Maddie's not coming, unfortunately. That's me on my own with one of our representatives from Dante. And then I'm flying over to Dubai first week of May again to do another presentation on about Dante and generational wealth.

[Andy Murphy]

Beautiful. Beautiful. And what's, what's the Indian culture like? We're going to go off topic right now, but what's the culture like? Because you're dealing with three different really we'll get into all the generational wealth because it's fascinating and obviously I'm in that world too. And it's. But the culture difference from India to Dubai to the uk is it drastically different? So you find in a very. Similarities on the psychology side, great question.

[Nicholas Charles]

But I mean what I've found out is that money and the emotion around money is actually a human issue rather than a cultural issue. And I learned that quite quickly whilst I was writing my two books, having spoken to multiple advisors. I mean the whole, it all began not just me personally because obviously I suffered from shirt sleeves to shirt sleeves within three generations, but also on a professional level. So as a tax accountant, when I was speaking to multiple clients and I realized how big this problem was because irrespective of the tax advice, people still losing their money and the relationships within the family dynamic was still imploding. And that got me really fascinated. Okay, it's not just happened to my family, it's not just happening to my clients. How big is this problem? Let me go and speak to other advisors. So I ended up going and interviewing over 100 advisors primarily for the book. This is, you know, dancing wasn't even an idea yet. Primarily for the book called Generational Wealth. And I wanted to know how big the problem was. And literally I just sat down, interviewed them and asked them, you know, questions to find out if they themselves had experienced the same problem with their own client base or even with their own social network. And each and every one of them shared their own nightmare. Story with me. And that spanned from not just family breakdown, but all the way to, you know, to addictive behavior and even suicide.

[Andy Murphy]

Absolutely. It's it. And that's what people who aren't in this field, in this world, they don't realize. And I obviously interviewed another friend of ours, Dominic, recently. Yeah, yeah. And Dominic, we went deep. That's a brilliant interview for everyone listening. Go. Definitely go and look that one up. It's. It's such a deep topic that we went into. But under it all, it seems like from the outside, wealth, money, glamorous bling, I want this, I want that. And then you get actually into the emotional trauma that this creates or can create. If it's not, if it's not preempted, if it's not taught differently, if it's not educated on, if it's not what we'll talk about your ten pillars, right? If it's not understood correctly, it creates so much more damage that has such a ripple effect through generations. And ultimately, when we're talking about family businesses, it has. What we're talking about with Dominic is that actually people don't realize that family businesses are Walmart. You know, they employ millions and millions and millions of people. So if they're not like, stable the families, then it actually does have a negative consequence to economies. It has a negative consequence to cities. And that's what people don't really understand, what's behind the scene. So when you speak about your own dilemmas with this, and fascinating that 100 people that you interviewed were going through the same thing. So my first question, I suppose, mate, is why is generational wealth so hard?

[Nicholas Charles]

Oh, where do we begin? Do we have enough time to answer this question?

[Andy Murphy]

We can do a Joe Rogan style podcast.

[Nicholas Charles]

Yeah. And I'm happy to share this and share these insights because every family's different. If you look at, if you take a step back and look at advice, and I'm not here to criticize advisors by any stretch of the imagination because guess what? I am an advisor. Background is in accountancy and tax planning. But if you look at the way I say, we have been trained. So you look at the way lawyers, accountants, wealth managers, investment bankers, how we in fiduciaries, how we've been trained. We have been trained to look after the financial capital. We've been looking. So, you know, if you're a tax advisor, you're there to save tax. If you're the lawyer, you're there to protect the money, whatever that means, to protect the business. If you're there as an investment banker or a wealth manager. You're there to protect the money and ideally grow the money through investments. Sure, but how many people out there trained to look after the people within the family? It's very, very few. And at the same time you might say, oh, but there's loads of psychologists out there. But yes, but going to a psychologist or a psychiatrist means that there's something wrong with you. Yes, and that's never a nice thing to admit, you know, to. I mean, in fact, it can be very damaging to palm off one of your children or your family members and say, go and see this, this specialist because we think you're damaged goods. I mean, it's horrible to even admit that. And you know, go a step back and you know, the reason why, you know, we're doing this is effectively to educate and tell people what needs to be done to avoid conflict, to avoid not saying conflict, to avoid damaging conflict, because conflict is actually a good thing, we'll come back to conflict. But in order to put in place what needs to be put in place to ensure that one, the family are united and in a position of agreement so that when the financial capital is passed over, the people receiving that capital are trained to receive it. And that's really, really important. And you touched on that part. And the reason why generational wealth is so difficult is because no one knows what to do. Yes, you don't know what you don't know. So you know, when you want advice, you go to an advisor. But if that advisor's only been trained to look after financial capital, then you're only dealing with a very small aspect of wealth. Transition. You're dealing with just financial capital. What about the human, intellectual, social capital that must be transferred over? And you look at the most successful families, they're the ones who transition all the wealth, all the well being to the next generation. And wealth, by the way, actually means well being does not mean money.

[Andy Murphy]

That's, I love that you brought that up. And that's, I love how you define that too, Nicholas. And, and it's so true. And it, it's like obviously I, I, I, I'm, I'm a coach and it's the same thing. What we're doing is transitioning from A to B. That, that's really what is whether I'm taking a world champion athlete from training camp to game day, whether I'm taking a hedge fund manager from 5 million to 100 million, it's that transition, right, that box that's, that surrounds the boundary around how someone's thinking, feeling and acting. Well, that works. Just like, you know, it's a muscle, right? The brain works very much like a muscle, and it has a boundary around a boundary condition around what's possible. Well, to transition over into something different, whether that's the wealth transfer, the big wealth transfer that we'll get into, but also a family business or a family transition. Well, it's such an identity shift. And that identity shift is it's like looking at two different worlds, right? It's like two different movies. And if we don't understand that way of thinking and that way of thinking and we don't build the brain to think in the next stage of life and business, then what we're doing is we're just playing all of these old belief systems and old attitudes and old language and old communication models. But what you're talking about is, well, there has to be an evolution of how this wealth transfer is done, right? And there has to be a change with the next generation that are coming through. They don't think like what was done before, right?

[Nicholas Charles]

It's impossible. They've experienced life in a completely different manner. You can't expect someone who's second generation to think like first generation. You can't expect someone who's third generation to think like second or first because your life is completely different. Let's take it on the very, very basic level. Okay? So when I was young, there was no such thing as the Internet or social media or Netflix or mobile technology. So I grew up without having that. Now I can't expect my children, okay, to, to grow up in the same man as I did because they were, you know, they have been into, they've been involved in the Internet, social media, instant access, you know, YouTube, UberEats, you know, you name it. They've experienced instant, instant, instant. They've experienced, you know, mobile technologies literally since the day they were born. And it's unavoidable. So therefore, I can't and I can't enforce, and I shouldn't enforce or expect to enforce my values on them. And that's, and that's why communication is the number one reason why families will fail to transfer wealth successfully all stems from communication. But how many people are out there to speak about effective communication, how to speak to the next generation?

[Andy Murphy]

They don't, because they don't understand both sides of the coin necessarily. Right?

[Nicholas Charles]

And even, even worse, whenever a conflict arises within a family dynamic, the first point of call that families will go to the lawyers. The worst thing you can do, like, literally the worst thing you can do is it's, it's like literally launching the first rocket on another country and hoping they, you know, and hoping they'll be okay with that. It's like, don't do that. Have the conversation first. But it's difficult until someone steps up and say, you know what, As a family, this is what we're going to do. And as a family, especially with first gen, as a. As a family or as the matriarch or patriarchal the family, I'm going to park my ego to one side.

[Andy Murphy]

Yes.

[Nicholas Charles]

And I am going to be open and listen to the next generation and we're going to have a discussion whereby there is no judgment.

[Andy Murphy]

Right.

[Nicholas Charles]

Safe environment. Very difficult.

[Andy Murphy]

Very difficult. Because you have to look at the history that led them up to that moment. Right. Of. Okay, we're going to have a communication now. Yes. But mom, dad, whoever, whoever. We've just gone through my whole life of this scenario and now, now is the moment that you want to have this conversation. So it really goes to awareness, right. It's awareness of perhaps patterns, behaviors, and really trying to understand that what was done and what is new there. Well, there has to be a synchronicity to a new harmonious belief system or model of the world. Right. There has to be a new. For both of them. That person can't play with that one. That one can't play with that one.

So.

[Nicholas Charles]

And it has to evolve as well.

[Andy Murphy]

Yes.

[Nicholas Charles]

Life is constantly moving. It's never static.

[Andy Murphy]

Yes.

[Nicholas Charles]

Life doesn't. You know, just because what you're doing today is X doesn't mean it's going to remain that way for the rest of your life. Guess what? Life changes. Things happen. Good and bad and ugly. It happens. And. But the question is, how are you going to deal with it as a person? How are you going to deal with it as a family when something, whatever that may be, arises and that also includes new members of the family? You know, people get married, people have children that change the dynamic of the whole family. Are you prepared to introduce new members of the family and what's the process and principles of bringing in new members into the family?

[Andy Murphy]

And again, it goes to trust. Right?

[Nicholas Charles]

Trust.

[Andy Murphy]

Yeah. Everything. Everything must go back to that. Yeah.

[Nicholas Charles]

But how do you build trust, communication. Exactly, exactly. And not just communicate, but openly communicating with, say, as a parent. I am a parent. Is. You need to constantly reiterate that you love your children no matter what, unconditionally. And that's so important because. Because and also, you have to do what you say, not necessarily just talk about it, because children are super smart and they'll pick up everything that you do. So if you tell to a child, oh, I'm always here for you, for example, but you spend 15 hours a day at work and they never see in the morning or at night time, then the children say, well, you're not here for me, therefore. Because you're. No, you're not here for me, therefore, it means. And then, then they create their own stories. Oh, you don't love me. You prefer your work over me. And whatever that video, whatever that, that, that image that you create in your mind that will stay with you as a child for the rest of your life.

[Andy Murphy]

Absolutely. Because you make a decision about, about, about yourself from there, right? Oh, maybe I'm not worthy around this. Right. And then resentment comes up. So, so this ties into something very interesting which you brought up very. This is your own personal story behind this, right? I mean, you, you, you again, next generation, you. What was it? Shirtless.

[Nicholas Charles]

The shirtless in three generations, shirt sleeves to shirt sleeves within three generations. And it varies. That's. It's an American terminology, but it's like, you know, rice, rice patty to rice Patty in three generations. That's in China. Clogs to clogs within three generations.

[Andy Murphy]

O, etc.

[Nicholas Charles]

Etc. But it's essentially, you know, the first generation will make it, second generation, if you're lucky, will save it because 70% actually fail to pass the wealth to the second generation. And then the third generation, if it gets to them, completely tank it. So 90, no, nine out of 10 founders lose everything within three generations, but even seven out 10 will lose everything within just two.

[Andy Murphy]

Wild. Yeah, so what, you tell me your story there, mate. Because it's something we haven't spoke about. We've hung out and done all the rest of it, but I've never. And this is why I love these, to interview people that I really like because I get to look behind the scenes. So, I mean, tell me, so your father was an accountant and tax advisor. Is that the history?

[Nicholas Charles]

Well, it goes further back. So my great grandfather was a multimillionaire in Israel, in Cyprus, a small island on the Mediterranean. If anyone knows it, you can Google it, love. Lovely island. But yeah, he was, he was very wealthy individual, controlled a lot of land. And in those days, even today, really control the land, you control the money, control the wealth. And, and he, and he created a business out of it. You know, he farmed the land, he created you know, the, the land generated money, should we say. And he was a great businessman. Big. Unfortunately I never met him, but my father told me he was a big, strong, strapping man. And yeah, if you, if you owed him money, he would, he would turn up and let you know.

[Andy Murphy]

He'd come and guess it.

[Nicholas Charles]

Great businessman. He only had one child. My grandfather, who unfortunately was not a great businessman, was never trained, was quite soft, never understood business, was never this again. Perfect example of transferring financial capital without the rest of the wealth. So he was like, here's everything, but I'm not going to teach you how to run a business. Disastrous strategy. And what happened? He lost it all. He and my father's eldest siblings, because my father was one of many. So the eldest siblings, they also managed to tank it along with my grandfather. Yet by the time, so by the time my father was eight years old, it all gone.

[Andy Murphy]

Wow.

[Nicholas Charles]

It all gone. And he had to work from the age of eight, my, my father, in order to have a living, in order.

[Andy Murphy]

To eat, survive in Cyprus.

[Nicholas Charles]

Yeah, this was in Cyprus. So he was running a tractor on the land.

[Andy Murphy]

Wow.

[Nicholas Charles]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. He worked the land in order, you know, in order to make enough money to, to live off. Just insane.

[Andy Murphy]

Can you imagine an 8 year old.

[Nicholas Charles]

Child in England working? It's like slave labor.

[Andy Murphy]

Yes, yeah, yeah. It's against the law now, but just a touch. Yes. So your dad. Let's just press pause on that. Your dad must be fascinating in himself.

[Nicholas Charles]

Yeah, yeah, Very, very fascinating. He's got lots of, lots of stories as, as my mum has as well. I mean, her story is fascinating as well because her father died in his mid-30s.

[Andy Murphy]

Wow.

[Nicholas Charles]

And left my, left my mother and she had. My mom was one of four siblings, all girls, so her, her mom and again my grandfather, my, my matriarchal. Yeah, matriarchal, that's the right word. Grandfather was also very rich and very successful, but he died very, very young. And my mum was just a child that she was 4 when her father passed away. And you're talking. And instead of my grandmother's siblings helping with that situation, they saw it as an opportunity to land grab, which is insane.

[Andy Murphy]

Common.

[Nicholas Charles]

That's exactly what they did. They thought weak woman on her own, no husband. What a wonderful opportunity to fill our pockets. And literally they were fraudulently signed over lots of land to their name.

[Andy Murphy]

Wow.

[Nicholas Charles]

What a lovely way to help a grieving woman.

[Andy Murphy]

Thank you very much. Yeah, I love you too. Yeah, absolutely the same. Wow. So, so, so your mom and your, your mom's from Cyprus too.

[Nicholas Charles]

My mom is from Cyprus as well. So, again, this all happened in Cyprus. And with her mom and her siblings, she had to come to England for job. Job and work opportunities. Because my grandmother at the time was a skilled sewer. And the textile industry in the 60s was booming.

[Andy Murphy]

Yes, it was. Yes, it was.

[Nicholas Charles]

It was booming. They needed skilled labor. My. And my grandmother was very skilled at sewing clothes in the. In the. In the booming textile industry.

[Andy Murphy]

Wow. So that kind of created the stability. It kind of built. Built things back together again.

[Nicholas Charles]

Yeah. But while she was working, no one was at home looking after the children. So, you know, my mum, from a very young age had to walk to school and she took, you know, the role and responsibility of the second mom at the age of like, about 10, 11 years old. She's.

[Andy Murphy]

It's more common than you think in so many different ways. Right. It's so. So. So your dad.

So that.

So. So where do you fit in the picture then? With this?

[Nicholas Charles]

Yeah, so. So my dad came to England and met. Met my mum as a budding accountant because he always wanted to be an accountant.

[Andy Murphy]

Okay.

[Nicholas Charles]

Studied and trained here in England, ended up living in England, married, married my mom, and literally became first gen. So he should have been third generation first gen. So that's your classic shirt sleeves. To shirt sleeves. Within three generations, by the time it came to my father, all gone. Which is, you know, a crazy story that affected us. And how do I fit in the pictures that I was told this story? You know, I'm a teenager, My dad's telling me his. His story. And my mindset, my psychology is I was great. I'm destined to lose everything because that's what happened to our family. It must be inevitable. It's a vicious cycle. I'm. I have no control over this. This was going through my mind at the time, which was. Which was. Which was insane. But I followed my father's footsteps, became an accountant, carried on the family business. A bit of succession planning there as well.

[Andy Murphy]

Right.

[Nicholas Charles]

But then I started seeing it with my own clients. And that's what got me to realize, okay, this is not a problem. That's just personal to my own family. I've seen this with other clients, I've seen this with other associates. That family implosion is detrimental to wealth transfer.

[Andy Murphy]

Right, right, right. Is it trauma that you're seeing that gets passed through is.

[Nicholas Charles]

It's multiple things. I mean, there's a saying that if you see, you know, with family offices, if you've seen one family office, you've seen one family office, Right?

[Andy Murphy]

Yeah.

[Nicholas Charles]

Every family is unique. Every family is completely different. There is no one size fits all, one problem fits all. But, you know, when it comes to research, everyone tries to put it in a box. But essentially, and I. And I've seen this firsthand, that when you delve in deep to any family problems, it all stems down to a lack of effective communication within the family dynamic.

[Andy Murphy]

Yeah.

[Nicholas Charles]

Families, what I've noticed. And again, irrespective of culture. Okay. Families struggle to talk about what is truly important. And I do not know why that's the reason. I don't know. Because what I see, what I've seen, and what I've personally experienced through my existing network is that people tend to push things they. That they feel uncomfortable to talk about under the rug.

[Andy Murphy]

Right, Right.

[Nicholas Charles]

And hope that by magic it gets resolved by itself, which is insane. And what I've also seen as well is that people rely on Hope as their generational wealth strategy. Like by some sort of miracle. And through the strategy of hope, everything will be okay in the future. Which is a crazy strategy because no one runs a business like that. I've never met a successful entrepreneur who hopes that his business is going to be successful.

[Andy Murphy]

Sure, sure.

[Nicholas Charles]

I mean, can you imagine standing up in an audience full of entrepreneurs and saying, today we're going to use Hope as our number one strategy for this business and for all your entities. I mean, you'd be, you'd be kicked out. They probably throw stones at you, you know, So my, my message is, why are you using that as your. As your strategy for your own family?

[Andy Murphy]

Yeah. And again, and that's partly what with your world and coaching and everything, it allows the things that are being hidden to actually be brought up into the open. And what you're talking about before in a safe environment. Right. And that's where you can actually communicate. Because like you're saying, do you find that it can be compartmentalized if you like, you talking about the lawyer or you're talking about this. This professional. This professional. This professional. And then it's like it gets even more hidden, like, becomes cloak and daggers to a degree. Right.

[Nicholas Charles]

Of course it is. I mean, advisors sadly work in silos. That's one of the reasons why we built Dante. So it becomes the heartbeat of the family's wealth that all advisors can tap into. So they're all working off the same, Their same plan, the same. The same digital provider, the same digital program, shall I say? So there's nowhere to hide. So you have accountability and everyone's working together because doesn't that make sense? You know, I'm not talking brain surgery is like, does it not make sense for all the advisors to work together towards the common vision, that of the family, whatever that may be? So every family is completely unique.

[Andy Murphy]

Oh, yeah, sure. But the common goal, there's a start, right? What's actually the most beautiful outcome that we can create here? What's the bigger picture here? Not just about wealth preservation. Like you're saying, how do we make this go 100 years, you know, 200 years, Octavian, thousand years Octavian.

[Nicholas Charles]

Classic example. Yeah, but again, he could share his problems with you as well. I mean, his story is fascinating.

[Andy Murphy]

It is fascinating. It is fascinating. And he'll be on the show at some point and we'll tie all these together in a big package for people. But does this go back to your 10 Pillars here? Because the first one you spoke about many times is. Is communication number one, health?

[Nicholas Charles]

Yes.

[Andy Murphy]

So what do you mean? Obviously we're talking. Are we talking just fitness and health? Is that where you're coming from? So just people actually being optimistic, optimized in with biohacking, and then like, just what do you mean by health? Mental, physical.

[Nicholas Charles]

Let's go. Even on the most basic level, it's not just that your personal health, but it's the health of your, your children, the health of your family, but also the health of your advisors. So if, if you're running, let's say you're running a family office and you're heavily reliant on a CEO to run that family office on your behalf, but, you know, he's had, I don't know, two heart attacks in the last three years. And if, and if anything were to happen to him, the whole thing would implode. Because you're so heavily reliant on that, individual health now becomes an absolute key pillar. And have you bothered to ask the question of how healthy are my advisors, especially the ones I rely on? Even if you're running a business and you always have key members of that business. I talk about the business of being a family, but let's just take it on a. On a company, on a corporate level, you will have a board of directors. Does it not make sense for those board of directors to be working in the most optimal way? And how key is that? Is their health to ensure that they're working in the most optimal manner?

[Andy Murphy]

Yes, yes.

[Nicholas Charles]

I'm not talking, you know, when I mentioned this, people go, oh, yeah, like, this is, in my opinion, common Sense. But people are so busy being busy, they stop. They. They fail to stop. Take a step back and then just say, okay, now let's look at the bigger picture. What's going on here? Where are the areas of risk to my business or to my family's wealth? And let me spend the time to ensure that we deal with these issues. And that's why I brought about the ten pillars. And then now you can see how health is absolutely vital to all of that.

[Andy Murphy]

Yeah, it's, it's, it's. Yeah. Again it goes like. Again, it's, it's like if you're reliant and that's why Dante so, so, so fundamental because you don't. You're not then reliant on one specific CEO, for example, who if passes away, passes away with their vision, passes away with their information. And it's like, it's. You're creating a platform that allows who plug and play to a degree. It's because it's not about the individual, it's about the family.

[Nicholas Charles]

An operating system for you to run your family's wealth based on the 10 pillars of generational wealth. If generational wealth is important to you and you want a digital solution, we've created Dante specifically for that.

[Andy Murphy]

Yes. I love that. And it becomes more and more clear as we talk. So does that move to. Then is the, is the third one education?

[Nicholas Charles]

Yes. So we, we mentioned education and it's in. I say education, but again it's. It's quite a vast subject and I was thinking of a term that encapsulates everything. Having spoken to multiple consultants in the family office space, we seem to come to an agreement that education is a nice banner to put everything together, but essentially it's training the next generation to become good beneficiaries.

[Andy Murphy]

Yes, yes.

[Nicholas Charles]

Whether that's succession planning in the business, you know, training the next generation if they're ready and if they want to get effective communication. Ask the next generation if they want to take over the business.

[Andy Murphy]

Sure.

[Nicholas Charles]

Rarely happens, by the way.

[Andy Murphy]

Which is interesting. Right.

[Nicholas Charles]

Common thing, but no, it's not.

[Andy Murphy]

They don't want. And what I found with working with next gen, and maybe you'll agree or disagree, but what I found is that it's because there's still. They're trying to find their own identity rather than being under the umbrella of the business or the first generation or the father figure. Right. So they're trying to find their own identity. And often what happens is, from what I've seen and helped is that there's very traumatized still. Right. And so they're looking. This is why the next gen is very good in many ways. And they kind of. They're open to what we do, especially with your stuff and what I do, because they're looking for solutions. They're not looking for constant external validation. They've actually gone internal. And they're realizing that that is their brain, it is their patterns of behavior, it is awareness that they have to adapt, they have to change because they want to live a healthy life, they want to live a happy life. They want to live a life that they want to live rather being boxed or confined or controlled. Right.

[Nicholas Charles]

Human traits, by the way we explain. Every human being on this planet wants exactly what you just said.

[Andy Murphy]

Absolutely. Freedom.

[Nicholas Charles]

Yeah. I mean, who doesn't? But sometimes allowing the next gen or giving them the freedom to do what they want may end up benefiting the business anyway because they'll go out and experience something, you know, that they see fit, and they end up coming back into the business with new ideas, fresh ideas, and end up, you know, in growing that business and making it even more successful than it actually was. So allowing the next gen that freedom of choosing their own path might be or will be the best thing for your own business in the long term anyway, as opposed to sticking them in the company against their wishes and forcing them to do something that, you know, they end up fighting against you over. Right.

[Andy Murphy]

Which creates sabotage patterns in itself. Right. Rather than allow, like you're talking about allowing them to evolve and grow as a human being. Right. In their own identity, which means ultimately, once they've worked through their own things, they were going to fundamentally come back to the family and want the best thing for. For the. For the family. And so. And so I love that. So education to do with all spectrums of this. Education to do with everything. Right.

[Nicholas Charles]

Yeah. Education to, you know, look after your finance, education in terms of looking after your investments, education in terms of running the family business, if that's what they need. Education in terms of what is important for them as human beings.

[Andy Murphy]

Yes.

[Nicholas Charles]

And that could be something as simple as having an outlet for them to talk to, you know, having an outlet to have a conversation with someone who does not impose any judgment on them. Yes, but the work that you do, that was a classic example. You work with next gen. I mean, how important is it for them to turn around to someone like yourself and just say whatever it is it's in their mind because they know, one, they trust you, and two, you're not going to impose any judgment on what they.

[Andy Murphy]

The safe space.

[Nicholas Charles]

Yes. Do you know how important that is? And as a, as you know, as a parent, you need to be responsible to create an outlet for the next generation because it's really valuable for them. As opposed to saying, I think there's something wrong with you because I think you're Y, Z, and, you know, and people are very quick to pigeonhole the next gen. I mean, ADHD is a classic example. I think you got ADHD because you're not listening to me. No, maybe there's a reason why they're not listening to you. It's not because they've got some sort of medical issue, for crying out loud. Maybe you're the problem. Have you ever seen that? For example? But again, give them the freedom to make their choice and to have an outlet. And again, that all fits within education. Have that safe space to learn. Have that safe space to understand what it is that they want in their lives, whether it's learning about health, good health habits, whether. I mean, basic things like, you know, you know, we, we look at. I know it's been mentioned way too many times, but the education, the classic education system that you see in the Western world is flawed in many ways.

[Andy Murphy]

Hugely, hugely.

[Nicholas Charles]

People go to, you know, you'll go to school, you go to university, and you might end up learning an academic or getting an academic qualification. Great. But in the bigger scheme of things, how trained are you to live this life? I did most of my learning when I left university. 100%.

[Andy Murphy]

100%.

[Nicholas Charles]

I learned, you know, everything I know today was outside of uni, not when I was in uni, getting an academic qualification, which is great, by the way. I'm not slamming at all. There is a place for that, clearly. But life is one big lesson that you need to learn and it's constant, it's consistent. And if you want to grow as a human being, then you need to grow. So does it not make sense to have education in the field of generational wealth within. On our platform, which is what we're growing, which we're building today.

[Andy Murphy]

Yeah, yeah. I love it. And I love the keyword that you use that. I thought that was brilliant. Outlet. Because that's the same with. That's. That. That's the same with founders, that's the same with hedge fund managers, that's the same with CEOs. It's the same with anyone who's got pressure on the shoulders, including a mother. Right. To have a safe space, to have an outlet, that then they can actually think clearer or get a different perspective on. It's huge. Even with the brain with neuroplasticity. Neuroplasticity means that the brain is able to adapt and change without. It's a two step process. The first step is awareness over the pattern. The pattern cannot change from brain chemical wise or adapt without awareness over it. It is literally a two step process. But if we're constantly hiding, if we're constantly distracting ourselves through sabotage patterns or escapism, escapisms or all of these things that create damage. Right. Longevity, it's so self destructive for human beings and we all just want to live our lives. The truth is what people probably don't understand. Maybe some for sure and some who don't. But what really humans want is just a simple life. They don't want complex like we just, this is just the world now. So we're in it. Right. Really. If your, if your home life is horrible, then do you think that might have a knock on effect to your work? Do you know if your health is horrible, do you think that might affect your family and you think it might affect your work?

Right.

It goes on and on.

[Nicholas Charles]

People can't see the connection and it's important to get it out there that everything is connected.

[Andy Murphy]

Everything. The mind, body, connection. Right. So that leads to your fourth pillar and I'm vision. Vision mate.

[Nicholas Charles]

Yeah. Again, let's go back to the most successful businesses that you and I both know. Everything stemmed from having a vision. So that you know, there'll be a founder that comes in place and he will have this mega vision. You know, Steve Jobs, you know, probably the biggest visionary out there. What he wanted to achieve and what he wanted. It's no surprise that that Apple is where it is today because it's all based on his original vision. Absolutely. Now why are we not applying that same vision to your family dynamic? If you are successful in your own right and you've built a, you know, a large amount of wealth, what is the vision around the wealth? What do you want your family to achieve? What do you want to achieve? What does the family name mean? How do you want it to mean it in the next 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, 100 years time? What are the expectations? What do you want for your family? Don't know. Everyone's completely different. But if you don't have a vision and you're just heading into a dark space, then don't be surprised when things go wrong. There's no guidance there. And I'm not saying you should have a Rugged vision that never changes over 100 years. Because that's complete garbage. Even companies change their vision over time. Sure, things change and life evolves, but it's all about having. But that vision is like almost a guiding principle.

[Andy Murphy]

Yes, yes, yes.

[Nicholas Charles]

That lays out your. This, that enables you to make effective decisions surrounding your division. Because that's where you go back to. Like, does X, Y fit within our original vision?

[Andy Murphy]

Yes.

[Nicholas Charles]

So why, why are families not implementing the same thing for themselves? You know, you're wealthy, you've built a lot of money over time. What is your vision for the family business? What is your vision for the next generation? What is your vision for the grandchildren, the great grandchildren? How do you want this to end up? What is your philanthropic vision? Yeah, another pillar, by the way. But again, connected to vision because they're all. Everything is interconnected within the ten pillars. Then these aren't standalone items.

[Andy Murphy]

Yeah, it's an ecosystem. Yes, yes. Pillars the great. It's a great graphic and it is an ecosystem. Right. And the truth is, behind vision, it's like with anything, any path will get you there. If you don't know where you're going. Right. You're just going to spin in circles. So by. It's, it's, it's, it's. People don't do this in relationships, but we do it in businesses. You don't. You don't meet your partner and give it. Okay, we're going to hang out, maybe we'll get married. But actually, what do you want in life? What do you want in life? Are we even on the same path?

[Nicholas Charles]

Marriage and finding the effective partner, that in itself requires education.

[Andy Murphy]

Yes. Yeah.

[Nicholas Charles]

Lots of wrong, very expensive mistake to make. Don't believe me? Have a look at the most recent divorces in history.

[Andy Murphy]

It's true.

[Nicholas Charles]

We've had some mega divorces in the last few years.

[Andy Murphy]

Bezo, I think.

[Nicholas Charles]

I think Jeff Bezos, I think, is still number one.

[Andy Murphy]

Yeah, that was a biggie.

[Nicholas Charles]

That was a biggie.

[Andy Murphy]

But she's all about philanthropy.

[Nicholas Charles]

Or Melinda Gates. That wasn't small either.

[Andy Murphy]

Well, no, that wasn't small. Wasn't small.

[Nicholas Charles]

Many, many millions.

[Andy Murphy]

But again, vision. I love this. And again, these are so simple, yet they're so complex and so vision. It was. Anything else you'd add to vision before we move on to probably the most beautiful one out your ten pillars?

[Nicholas Charles]

No, I mean, I mean, effectively, you know, it is what it says on the tin. It's just have an idea of where it is that you want to go. But most importantly, share that vision, communication with your family and your advisors. Because if you want your advisors to work together towards a common goal, then does it not make sense for you to share that vision to your advisors?

[Andy Murphy]

Yes, it does. Yes, it does. And that comes from the founder also through generations. Right. They can share that vision. Right?

[Nicholas Charles]

Through.

[Andy Murphy]

Through. Through, yeah, 10th generation. Then at least they know what's. Where there's. What the. What the ethics were behind this, where this is all coming from.

[Nicholas Charles]

Guiding principles. What are the guiding principles behind any decision, as opposed to what's the legal contract that we signed in XYZ days like, you go a step back, you need an overriding principle that everyone buys into. And that's quite key because you're constantly communicating amongst yourselves. And I'd like, you know, I don't apologize for constantly repeating myself, because these principles are so important. These pillars are absolutely vital if you want to establish a successful generational wealth strategy.

[Andy Murphy]

Absolutely. And that leads to philanthropy, right?

[Nicholas Charles]

Yes, philanthropy. Beautiful. We're going now on the outer pillars. So philanthropy is stunning. Why is philanthropy important? It's because it creates a purpose greater than the individual needs of each family member. It becomes almost vital once you've secured a certain level of wealth. Because once you bought all your toys and your gimmicks and, you know, once you've achieved a certain amount of wealth and, you know, paying the bills is no longer one of your main driving points, you know, because that is almost automated and done, and now you've got this big pot of cash, big pot of wealth. It's like, what do you want to do with it? And again, the most successful families out there, and I'll give you the great example, the Rockefellers, who've done this brilliantly, they have their own philanthropic fund. You're seeing Warren Buffett doing this now as well for his own children, giving them charitable trusts as opposed to giving them money and saying, go and donate all this cash. Philanthropy brings the family together. It brings the family together. It gives. It helps the next gen create an interest over the money, even if they're not directly involved in the family business or in the family investments. Now all of a sudden, they're. They're more interested in the money, in the financial capital because of this philanthropic activity that they want to support, that they're passionate about.

[Andy Murphy]

Yes.

[Nicholas Charles]

You're seeing timing. You know, a lot of wealthy families now out setting up their own charitable foundations or charitable trusts, and they're getting the next gen involved in there.

[Andy Murphy]

It's so important for fulfillment. Otherwise the money becomes Empty the energy behind or the emotional driver behind.

The.

Money, without the heart centeredness, without actually giving, it's just, it becomes empty. And I feel that the next gen know that and that's why they don't like it. They don't. Well, what does it mean? What does it mean? I'm just getting external validation from things. No, what does, what is this?

[Nicholas Charles]

Really don't value or appreciate the wealth as well. Again, that stems back from education. But there's a lot of guilt that I've seen with next gen who inherit a lot of money because they feel that they don't deserve the money. And if, if they're, if their main driver is guilt, which is just a horrible emotion by the way, very, very negative, then what are they going to do? That money, they're going to get rid of it as fast as they can. So now you're starting to see where and why the wealth dissipates over time.

[Andy Murphy]

Again, goes back to being human, goes back to trauma, goes back to this individual. Right. And it goes again, it goes back this. There's, there's the structural side what you're talking about, but there's the, also the personal side. Right. And, and, and they aren't separate. It's like the mind body connection. How, how insane is it, right, going back in science that they thought that. No, no, no, no, no. The brain is the brain and the body is the body kind of in the same thing.

[Nicholas Charles]

Yeah, you would think so, wouldn't you?

[Andy Murphy]

You would think so. And it's the same with a family business, a family dynamics, relationships, brothers, sisters. It's next gens. It's all the same thing. It's the mind body connection inside of a human being. But it's also the generational connection, the emotional intelligence, the social intelligence, the self awareness, the education like you're talking about around how to move this forward as a business. But also when you add the philanthropy to it, I just think it's such the most, it's probably the most powerful piece of the puzzle, which is like the glue. Because if people buy into or understand. Oh, okay. The more money we have, the more people we can help. Oh, this means we can go through a hundred generations and actually create impact in the world rather than just taking and buying stuff. Buying stuff. There's the word stuff.

[Nicholas Charles]

I like the way you use glue because that's important because I reiterate and say that philanthropy is the glue that keeps the family together.

[Andy Murphy]

We think the same, mate.

[Nicholas Charles]

Brilliant. I like that. So no, no, you're 100% correct. And it also, by the way, can and will create goodwill for the business.

[Andy Murphy]

That's true.

[Nicholas Charles]

As a business offspin bonus. Yeah, I wouldn't, I wouldn't suggest you do it for business reasons because that's not the reason why you should be giving money away. But associating your family and the family name to good causes can only create goodwill for you. I mean, it has been used ruthlessly in the past by certain individuals who I will, who will remain nameless because I don't fancy getting sued. But. So, yeah, he can have a bit of a dark side towards it and I see why, you know, people can have a charge over philanthropy. But if you're authentic about your giving, there you go. Authentic about making a difference to this world. It will create a goodwill to your family name. It will glue the family together, as you mentioned, it will keep you together and it creates a purpose around the money.

[Andy Murphy]

A purpose and fulfillment. You know, I love this. And that leads to explain to me because this is what Dominic always spoke about and actually Octavian, but it was governance, okay?

[Nicholas Charles]

Governance, yes. So it's the systems that run the family. So I mentioned to you that, you know the business of being a family and that's why, you know, we, we created a system for governance, which is what Dante is. Effectively, you can't run your wealth unless you know what is actually there. And there's some transparency in place. But I, you know, if you want to simplify governance, because it's quite an overly used term, let's use it in the most simple manner. You've got a, a company and that company has a board of directors.

[Andy Murphy]

Right?

[Nicholas Charles]

Clearly. And those board of directors, they meet regularly and they all got their own assigned roles and responsibilities of the business.

[Andy Murphy]

Right?

[Nicholas Charles]

And they're trying to run the business in according to the vision of the founder. So now you're seeing where this is coming, where this tags along. And they meet regularly to promote the business, to discuss what needs to be done, to take it to the next stage of the business life in order to fulfill the requirements of their shareholders.

[Andy Murphy]

Right. Right.

[Nicholas Charles]

Now, once the family is growing to a certain level, you need to start implementing governance structures. Who is responsible for what, where and why? Who is responsible for running the philanthropic arm of the family? Who is responsible for running the social get togethers of the family? Who is responsible for running the business? The actual family business, if there is a family business. Who's responsible for running the investment arm of the family? Who's responsible for going out there and Finding new deals for the family, whether it's private equity, whether it's real estate, whatever that may be. Now all of a sudden, everyone has their own roles and responsibilities and they should then meet as a board, as a family board, every so often, monthly, quarterly, every six months, whatever it may be, so you can come together and communicate what you have done. And then at the end of the year you explain everything to the shareholders like an AGM or a council of family members. Right. And say, this is what we have done as a family. Now that's governance in a very basic overview, should we say. But it all stems from having effective communications. There's no point implementing, I've seen families do this, or they'll implement a family constitution, for example.

[Andy Murphy]

Okay.

[Nicholas Charles]

And that family constitution will be drawn up by one family member.

[Andy Murphy]

Okay.

[Nicholas Charles]

With zero involvement of the rest of the family. Now I don't need to explain to you how ineffective a strategy that is because when something is forced upon you as a human being, what are you gonna do? The moment that individually forced it upon you passes away. You're going to take that piece of paper and you're going to put it in the bin.

[Andy Murphy]

Sure.

[Nicholas Charles]

Because you weren't involved in it.

[Andy Murphy]

Yes, yes.

[Nicholas Charles]

So the communication starts first in order to create effective governance, not the other way around. But you get a lot of private, you know, private banks going. Yeah. Governance is really important to help run your family. Governance. Governance. So you know, you as a family member. Oh, I need to implement this thing called governance because I'm being told to do so. Like when was the last time you sat down as a family and spoke about what's important?

[Andy Murphy]

Yes.

[Nicholas Charles]

Oh, never. Maybe you should start there communication.

[Andy Murphy]

Yeah.

[Nicholas Charles]

And then we could focus on, you know, implementing governance structures and you know, again, seen it time and time again. I've spoken to Dominic about this as well and he, he'll reiterate the same things. No point having a family constitution if you've got no involvement with the family members pointless piece of paper or even worse, you know, you want to, you want to avoid inheritance tax. So you know, you draw up a will, make sure it's really tax efficient, but then you don't tell any of the beneficiaries what's in that will during your lifetime.

[Andy Murphy]

Right.

[Nicholas Charles]

That is the number one way to ensure that when you pass away, the next gen end up in court.

[Andy Murphy]

100%.

[Nicholas Charles]

Great strategy for litigation.

[Andy Murphy]

Yeah, yeah. Good for the lawyers.

[Nicholas Charles]

Yeah, good for the lawyers. Terrible for your family. Don't do it. Speak to your family. You know, yes, it's difficult. No one likes talking about death. Sure. I'm not saying it's an easy subject to talk about, but does it not make sense whilst you are alive to discuss what you're going to give to the beneficiaries after you have gone?

[Andy Murphy]

Yes, of course it does. In any context. Right. I mean, again, it goes back to that, that again, it's fear. It's fear of, well, I'm going to then have to bring up all of the things that have happened inside of our family because this is how I made this decision around this, which is then going to trigger trauma, it's going to trigger conversations and it's someone's like, it's just too messy. So if I keep it quiet, then I don't have to deal with that.

[Nicholas Charles]

Yeah, but I get it. And avoiding a problem does not make the problem go away.

[Andy Murphy]

No, it does not. No, it doesn't. It makes it 100 times worse. Right, because. Yeah, exactly. So what's the difference between what you're talking about with governance and then structure?

[Nicholas Charles]

Okay, so your structures, your legal structures.

[Andy Murphy]

Okay.

[Nicholas Charles]

So as, as you're growing, as you're growing your wealth, it can get very complicated very quickly. So, you know, it's not unusual for a wealthy family to buy assets in different legal structures.

[Andy Murphy]

Right.

[Nicholas Charles]

Whether it's for tax purposes, for example, or whatever, whatever reason it may be, you might have a company here in England, but you might have an offshore company in the BVI to own your overseas assets. You know, just giving you a light example, you might have some trusts in place, you might have some qualified non UK pension schemes in place, whatever that may be. I've seen far too many families not even understand the structures that were historically set up. And because they don't know what they've actually got, they don't know who the legal owner is. It creates a mess over time. You know, I, I had to deal with a seven year litigation battle on behalf of one of my clients because they never knew the structures, never had a clue, never even met the fiduciaries. You set it up. Never had the discussion with her dad, who set it up. Now he, you know, this time I took over, he sadly passed away. It's too late, too late to have those conversations about, you know, you know, who, who is the legal owner of the asset that you are the beneficial owner of.

[Andy Murphy]

Right.

[Nicholas Charles]

And there's a clear, you know, clear difference between being a legal owner and being a beneficial owner.

[Andy Murphy]

Sure, sure, sure.

[Nicholas Charles]

You might be benefiting from the income Real estate being a classic example, but you don't legally own the assets. This entity that's been set up in an offshore is a company set up in an offshore entity that you don't know about. An offshore jurisdiction.

[Andy Murphy]

Right.

[Nicholas Charles]

Have your structure, but more importantly, having your structures in a clear, defined manner. And again, this is what we've done in Dante, because we want to simplify life, enables you to make your advisors accountable because you've got everything in one place. And you can ask the question, okay, these are my structures. How much money am I saving for all this? Is it fit for purpose? I'm not saying for any second, for any viewer here to become a tax expert. Of course not. It's essential to be able to ask the right questions of your advisors. And not having a clear picture of your structures means you haven't got a clue what question to ask. You don't even know what you own.

[Andy Murphy]

And where it's held. Right, Right.

[Nicholas Charles]

And great advisors will always want to be made accountable.

[Andy Murphy]

Absolutely. And if they don't, it's kind of a red flag. Right? What are you really in this for?

[Nicholas Charles]

What are you trying to hide?

[Andy Murphy]

Yes, yes, yes. What are you trying to hide?

[Nicholas Charles]

Why are you charging me these fees, Mr. Trustee, Mr. Fiduciary, whoever that may be? You know, is this structure fit for purpose? You know, am I generating any value from this particular structure? Do I even need it? Can I just get rid of half these entities and just simplify my life?

[Andy Murphy]

Right.

[Nicholas Charles]

What's the point of spending money on something, on fees, if you're not generating any savings or tax savings or, you know, whatever reason it may be, it might be for security, by the way, it's not everyone owns assets in offshore jurisdictions primarily for tax. Sometimes they do it for. They want things to be opaque. They don't want the public finding out what they own.

[Andy Murphy]

Right.

[Nicholas Charles]

For security purposes.

[Andy Murphy]

Yeah, yeah.

Because a target, anything, Anything. Right. So that makes a lot of sense. That makes a lot of sense. So, so documentation then. How does that tie in with this? Because you've got the governance, the structure, but the documentation. How's that, how's that different?

[Nicholas Charles]

Where is it kept? Is a good question that needs to be asked. So again, whilst we're buying all these assets, where are these documents being kept? And we see it. Sometimes they're kept on spreadsheets, sometimes are they kept in hot, you know, the hard copies and they're kept in some sort of safe. But where are they kept? Or they. They're in digital format. But what server they Kept on. I don't know. I mean, we had this one Indian family we're dealing with who owned hundreds of properties and they did not know where those documents were.

[Andy Murphy]

Wow.

[Nicholas Charles]

They knew that they were kept somewhere amongst, you know, their plethora of advisors, but they didn't know who was holding what and if they were complete.

[Andy Murphy]

That's scary.

[Nicholas Charles]

Yeah, of course, of course, of course it's scary. But even worse, I mean, how many times have we seen, we go to the media and X, Y, you know, an individual pass away and you'll think, you know, his will gets read and then magically a second will appears out of nowhere. Again, documentation keeping in a safe, secure manner whereby one beneficiary benefits over all these other beneficiaries. And the only way you can clear this mess up is to go to court. Goodbye. Because clearly the, you know, the person who's donate don't. The donor has passed away. Beneficiaries all arguing amongst themselves which will was genuine, which will was changed, why was it changed? Was the, you know, was it genuine? But was he of right mind? He or she, were they of right mind when they changed the will or is it complete fraud? Don't know. But if you keep your documents in a robust manner and utilize blockchain technology.

[Andy Murphy]

Beautiful.

[Nicholas Charles]

To create an audit trail. So if anything is changed, it gets stamped.

[Andy Murphy]

Exactly.

[Nicholas Charles]

Then that mess can be saved and avoided. But again, it stems from communicating. So once you. So if you're going to create a will and yes, you're going to keep it a safe, secure manner, make sure you communicate that will so there's no surprises when that will ended up being read out. Things like power of attorney, you know, if you, God forbid, you're in a coma, you're still alive. But you need powers of attorney in place for someone to take to make those financial and medical decisions where they kept, you know, was it, was it stamped correctly? You know, sometimes it needs to be notarized. Has it been not. Is it up to date? I don't know. Where is it kept? Because you need to utilize this document, this power of attorney in order to prove to the banks, the lawyers, the trustees that you, you, whoever you may be, are authorized to make decisions on behalf of patriarch or the matriarch of the family.

[Andy Murphy]

Sure. Makes total sense. Right. And you can see how it gets so messy and complicated. And that brings you to advisors, Right?

[Nicholas Charles]

Yep.

[Andy Murphy]

And so, so, so when you say advisors, this seems to be a lot, a lot of advisors. And then it's who to trust and who Are they? Yeah.

[Nicholas Charles]

Who is in your advisory team? Who is you? Who, who is your trusted advisor? I mean it could be one accountant.

[Andy Murphy]

Sure.

[Nicholas Charles]

Would have to be loads and loads of advisors. It could be, it can be quite vast if. Depending on the vastness of your, of your wealth and geographically where everything is kept.

[Andy Murphy]

Sure.

[Nicholas Charles]

So if all your assets are in England, for example, you're not going to need advisors in Dubai and bvi. Right, not needed. You're probably going to need UK lawyer and maybe a UK tax advisor and probably UK accountant.

[Andy Murphy]

Good team.

[Nicholas Charles]

Done. But who are they? Have they been introduced to the next generation or are they complete strangers? I've heard these, I mean these. Some of the quirkiest stories I've found were husband will pass away, wife did not know anything about any advisor and ended up going through his wallet to find business cards and contacting the people on the business cards and say, were you advising my husband, my late husband. I mean that's how bad it can get.

[Andy Murphy]

Wow, that's old school as well. Right. And that's why things need to be updated into, into a fundamental system. And it needs to be like you're talking about with introducing which is so important, which is the blockchain technology with all of this because it is that three step ledger. Right. It's there, it's there. And, and that's what people don't understand. Maybe. But then the new generation does the next gen. Well, let me tell you.

[Nicholas Charles]

Even, let me give you another story. Okay. This is quite scary. And I spoke to an ex director of a private bank. I won't name the private bank, but it's quite a major private bank here in England.

[Andy Murphy]

Okay.

[Nicholas Charles]

And he told me, he asked me to guess the amount of unclaimed bank accounts resting with this one bank in this one country. So these are bank accounts that were opened up at some stage. A big chunk of money was deposited. Whoever was responsible for that account clearly has disappeared, probably passed away and no one has gone to claim this particular bank account. So how much money do you think.

[Andy Murphy]

Wow, this is a UK bank or.

[Nicholas Charles]

It'S a UK bank, UK private bank.

[Andy Murphy]

You know, you're setting that number up there, it's got to be like a billion, you know what I mean?

[Nicholas Charles]

Yeah. £1.4 billion.

[Andy Murphy]

Wow.

[Nicholas Charles]

Just in unclaimed sitting, unclaimed money just sitting there.

[Andy Murphy]

The bank are happy though because they're making money off it.

[Nicholas Charles]

Yeah, of course they are, they're happy. But I mean, what a waste. That's just one bank.

[Andy Murphy]

What a waste. Someone's worked so hard to get to accumulate that. Right. Then they've had the thought, okay, I'm going to put this. It's safe somewhere. And then.

[Nicholas Charles]

So don't tell anyone about your assets. You don't tell anyone. Your advisor or your bank manager is right. I really haven't got a clue. Just sit.

[Andy Murphy]

Sits there forever because it's too big.

[Nicholas Charles]

For the government to take it. Like in America, if it's unclaimed for two years, the government's allowed to take it, of course. Unsurprisingly.

[Andy Murphy]

Of course.

[Nicholas Charles]

But in England, I don't think there's any rules. I think the rules stem if it's immaterial. I think that means less than a hundred pounds.

[Andy Murphy]

Okay.

[Nicholas Charles]

Then the bank can just take that money and close the account. But for vast chunks of money, can't do that. There's no. There's no law or legislation out there that enables them to say, yeah, I'll take that, or it goes to the crown.

[Andy Murphy]

Interesting. That's. That's wild. That's wild. So does that tie into assets, which is the 10?

[Nicholas Charles]

Yeah, it ties in perfectly to assets. What do you own? Where is it, where is it kept? Who the legal owner is, who's the beneficial owner. And of course, it ties in quite nicely. I mean, really relevant when it comes to things like that are difficult to trace. Like private equity, for example. Okay, so I'll give you a really good story with Maddie, my business partner. So one of the businesses, he exited, Obviously, when you exit a business, someone comes in, buys your company, and whoever had invested in your company has to be paid out.

[Andy Murphy]

Sure.

[Nicholas Charles]

From that money. So one of his shareholders who had invested in him several years back had gone missing.

[Andy Murphy]

Okay.

[Nicholas Charles]

Had gone missing. So Maddie had to pay for a private investigator. So insane. This is to find this person so that he can then deliver his check to him.

[Andy Murphy]

He wanted to pay him.

[Nicholas Charles]

He couldn't hold that money. It wasn't his money. Yeah, he's not the shareholder that belongs to someone else.

[Andy Murphy]

Oh.

[Nicholas Charles]

And he had to then go out and find that person in order to pay him, you know, pay him his check. Now, luckily, you know, in this particular. In this particular example, Maddie was trustworthy. Maddie wanted to do the right thing. How many in that position would do the right thing? Especially when you're dealing with a lot of money. I mean, in this case, it was six figures, not a small amount of money.

[Andy Murphy]

Sure, sure, sure, sure.

[Nicholas Charles]

It was, you know, it was a nice return for that, you know, for that private investor, you know, who Invested in the company and then forgot.

[Andy Murphy]

Yes, yeah, yes, he forgot that he.

[Nicholas Charles]

Invested in this company. He lost track of it, lost interest.

[Andy Murphy]

Yeah, yeah, because time goes by and he's doing it a lot of. A lot of probably investments. So. Interesting, interesting. So I understand now that that whole ecosystem of these 10 pillars, the whole ecosystem of why Dante is actually came about to sol. Solved to create a solution. I understand now why you're so passionate about this. I understand your history, your personal history, your professional history. I understand why the books became so important because you were able to look into the, literally the mindset of a hundred people of generational wealth and find the key elements that created dilemma or created solutions. So I think we did well today, Nicholas.

[Nicholas Charles]

I think we covered. We covered quite a lot. Again, of course, the books are available for anyone to buy from Amazon. In fact, both books are available on Amazon.

[Andy Murphy]

What are the names? What are the names of the books? I'm going to put links.

[Nicholas Charles]

So, yes, Generational wealth was the second book which I co wrote with a lovely private client lawyer called Antoinetta Proctor, who's since left her legal firm to work for a family office. Oh, single family office. So congratulations to her because that's really, literally. That happened last month.

[Andy Murphy]

Oh, wow.

[Nicholas Charles]

The first book was, which I wrote on my own, which the Four Fundamentals of Family Prosperity. That's also available on my website, familyprosperity.com the links on both books available of course, on Dante IO.

[Andy Murphy]

Beautiful. And is there anywhere you'd want to direct people? Is it just. We're heading over to Dante. Do we want to. Dante IO? Is there anywhere else that we. We can find. We can find you.

[Nicholas Charles]

Yeah, you can find me on my, my LinkedIn page. We'll put the, we'll put the links in. Yeah, we've got a. We've got a YouTube page for Dante as well. And yeah, Dante IO is, is the main website now that we're. We're putting all our blood, sweat and tears to create and we're getting a new website will hopefully be coming out in the next, I'll say seven to ten days. Brand new website.

[Andy Murphy]

Beautiful.

[Nicholas Charles]

Really cool. All our videos will be there. Our blogs and this, this interview as well will be there as well. We'll probably break it up and put bits in so people like, like seeing shorter videos and put the whole on our YouTube page as well.

[Andy Murphy]

Fantastic. Fantastic. Nicholas, it's been a pleasure, lots of fun and thank you for being on the show, my friend.

[Nicholas Charles]

You're welcome. Thank you so much for inviting me.

[Andy Murphy]

Boom. We are out.

[Podcast Intro Announcer]

That's all for this episode of the Neuro Performance Podcast. Thanks for tuning in. Remember to stay connected, rate, review and visit andymurphy online to take the next step towards unlocking your pure potential. See you next time.