← Neuroscience Meets Social and Emotional Learning
Neuroscience Meets Social and Emotional Learning
Theory of Mind: The Missing Link Between Attention, Reward, and Motivation with John Medina
00:37:05
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- [00:02]
A
Welcome Back to season 15 of the Neuroscience Meets Social and Emotional Learning Podcast. I'm Andrea Samadhi, and on this podcast, we bridge the science behind social and emotional learning, emotional intelligence, and practical neuroscience so we can create measurable improvements in well being, achievement, productivity and results. And if you're new here, welcome. We're currently reviewing past episodes in season 15, organized as a roadmap of the brain's foundational systems. Instead of treating neuroscience, health, mindset and performance as separate topics like we've done the past 14 seasons, we're now exploring how these systems come online in sequence. In phase one, we focused on regulation and safety. Because without it, nothing else in the brain fully activates. If we don't feel safe, the brain shifts into survival mode. And when that happens, the systems we need for motivation, focus and learning don't fully come online. And by the end of this season, my hope is that we can all step back and ask, where am I out of alignment? Is it with regulation? Is it my thinking or my focus or belief? Is it how I'm learning or connecting with others? Because once we see the gap, we can begin to close it. And the goal is not more effort, it's better alignment. And when these systems are aligned, effort feels easier, learning becomes faster, and results become more consistent. Because peak performance isn't about doing more. It's about aligning the systems that drive our results. And we're now in phase two, Neurochemistry and Motivation, where we're exploring one core question, what actually drives human behavior Forward? In episode 392, we introduce the motivation loop, how the brain decides what's worth doing. Episode 393 with Bob Proctor, we explored how belief influences our neurochemistry, driving action, feedback and repetition. Then episode 394 with Dr. Carolyn Leaf, we move deeper into the loop, examining how our thought patterns shift, shape our neurochemistry and influence behavior over time. And now today's episode 395, we continue building on this foundation as we explore the next layer of motivation and performance. It's attention and reward. Because our thoughts shape our neurochemistry, our attention determines what we focus on, and reward determines what we repeat based on what matters to us. And you can revisit our Original interview, episode 42, one of our very early interviews with Dr. John Medina, the author of the book Brain Rules, and see the visuals from this interview on YouTube. And again, our most recent, episode 370, where we revisited Dr. Medina with the Brain and the Future of Learning. But today, we're going to cover one part of this interview. And it was when I first asked Dr. Medina about theory of mind, the something I had heard him speak about. And he explained it as our ability to understand the intentions and motivations of other people. And this is where things become especially interesting for what we're studying in phase two. Because the brain doesn't pay attention to random information. It pays attention to people. It pays attention to meaning, and it pays attention to. To intention. And when we understand someone's intentions, that creates emotional relevance, it increases our attention, and that activates the brain's reward system. So in today's episode 395, we'll explore how theory of mind is not just about understanding others. It may actually be a driver of attention, motivation, and reward. And this is where dopamine enters the motivation loop. Because dopamine isn't just about pleasure. It's about prediction, attention, motivation, and learning what matters most to each of us as individuals. And once we begin to understand how attention and reward work together, we can begin to understand what truly drives our behavior. So in clip one, I asked Dr. Medina to explain theory of mind. I reminded Dr. Medina that when I was researching his work, I heard him talk about theory of mind in his talks at Google. Let's hear what he has to say about theory of mind.
- [05:13]
B
Dr. Medina, we've come to the end of our 20 minutes, and I still have my theory of mind question. Do you have about three minutes? Could you cover theory of mind?
- [05:21]
C
I sure could. You bet. Let's talk about theory of mind.
- [05:25]
B
Thank you. Well, when I was doing some research on you and I saw your talks at Google, you mentioned Art Link letter and a few places in his show. Kids say the Darndest things.
- [05:34]
C
Right.
- [05:34]
B
I have to put this in here because I actually asked Art to write the forward to my first book, and he actually declined very politely via fax. But he had actually met up with Walt Disney, and Walt was one of his friends. And Walt took him to this orange field in California. Yeah, you know, look at this land. Do you see what I see? And he shared his vision of this theme park that he saw. Yeah, when I. When I heard your theory of mind, I thought, you know, shouldn't Art have been able to see that theme park? Arc didn't. And he actually said, no, I don't see it. He declined partnering with Walt Disney. And that was Art Linkletter's biggest regret of his life presentation. But can you bring in theory of mind? What is it? How can we use it? Is it the closest thing that we've got to mind reading. And how can we learn to feel each other's intentions?
- [06:33]
C
Sure. Yeah. Well, I do have to tell you, I have a confirmation bias of some kind, or at least a bias. I have a big poster in my office from Walt Disney. And there's Walt, and he's not in Anaheim, he's in Orlando. But Disney World hasn't been built yet. But what you see is he's got that big grin on his face and an entrepreneur's hand waved out, and all you see is this giant swamp. The poster is literally just a giant swamp. And in the back, in kind of a mist, is the Cinderella castle. And the caption is, it's kind of fun to do the impossible. It's sad. You know, Art started out as a teacher, and actually he was born in Canada and went down to Southern California and eventually became. And found teaching wasn't making any money, so he went into radio. So he was never in the visual arts. Walt starts out doing lots of drawing, starts as a cartoonist. Eventually did night classes in the Chicago Fine Arts Institute. And they came at the ways to be creative in very different ways. Artists, primarily art. Linklater, I think, is primarily an audio artist. Walt, of course, is an animator. And when he. When he asked Art to see something, maybe Walt should have asked a different question. Maybe he should have asked Art, art, can you hear something? It might have been a different answer than he would have gotten because that's the thing that Walt was all about, or Art was all about. In order for Walt to do that, though, he has to have strong theory of mind. This very concept. Theory of mind, is defined formally as the ability to understand the intentions and motivations of someone else. It's the ability to appear inside someone else's psychological interior and. And with very little cues, understand almost immediately the rewards and punishment systems and the kinds of things that make that person tick. So if Walt had understood that about art and knew what made Art tick, he would have said, you know, Walt or Art, why don't you design all the audio? We'll make a giant audio space. Half of Disney World is an audio experience only. Only the only. The other half is visual. And a fair amount of it is kinetic, too. Maybe Walt. Walt and Art could have done something together. Andrea, who knows? But the fact that theory of mind was not there on Walt's part, I think is part of the failure of that story.
- [08:50]
A
Some key takeaways from clip 1. Dr. Medina's explanation of theory of mind. Takeaway 1 Theory of mind is the ability to understand another person's inner world. Dr. Medina defines theory of mind as the ability to understand the intentions and motivations of someone else. It's our capacity to understand what motivates people, recognize what captures their attention, predict what rewards or discourages them, and see the world from their perspective. And this ability strengthens communication, relationships, leadership, learning, and collaboration. And we first explored theory of mind in greater depths on episode 46, where we examined why this skill is so important for human connection, communication, learning, and performance. Theory of mind is considered crucial for everyday social interactions because it helps us to analyze behavior, interpret emotions, judge intentions, and infer what another person might be thinking or feeling. And researchers describe it as an important social cognitive skill that involves the ability to think about mental states, both your own and those of others. In other words, theory of mind allows us to step outside of our own perspective and recognize that other people may think differently, they may feel differently, they may perceive situations differently, and respond differently than we do. And this shift becomes essential in classrooms, workplaces, leadership, teamwork, relationships, parenting, coaching, and overall communication. Because the better we can understand another person's motivations, their emotional state, their fears, intentions, or needs, the more effectively we can respond to each person individually and help them meet those needs. And neuroscience shows us this process is deeply connected to attention, emotion, empathy, prediction, and reward systems, all in the brain. Theory of mind helps us move beyond simply reacting to behavior and instead allows us to begin understanding the human experience behind this behavior. And. And that shift changes not only how we understand others, but how we lead, how we teach, communicate, and connect with others. Takeaway 2. People process the world differently. The Walt Disney and Art Link letter story in this clip shows us that Walt Disney was highly visual and imaginative. An Art Link letter was more auditory, storytelling oriented. Wald asked, do you see what I see? But Medina suggests the better question that could have changed art's life may have been, can you hear what I hear? And this reminds us that not everybody experiences information the same way. Understanding how someone thinks is critical for connection and influence. Takeaway 3. Attention is driven by meaning and and emotional relevance. One of the Most important ideas Dr. Medina reinforces is that the brain doesn't pay attention to random information. Attention is selective. The brain is constantly filtering what matters most and what does not, and what determines that. Filter well. The brain prioritizes information connected to people, to emotion, to meaning, intention, relevance, and our survival. And this is why emotionally meaningful experiences are remembered more clearly than neutral ones. Medina explains this in his book Brain Rules and as researchers continue to confirm this that emotions help memories form and stick. From a neuroscience perspective, emotion acts like a biological highlighter. When something feels emotionally important or our attention increases, the amygdala becomes activated. Stress and reward chemicals increase our alertness, and the brain actually signals this matters. Remember this. And this is why we often remember emotionally charged conversations, inspiring moments or fear based experiences, meaningful relationships, powerful stories or moments where we felt uncertain feeling far more easily than random facts or disconnected information. The amygdala, one of the brain's emotional processing centers, works closely with attention and memory systems to determine what information should receive priority. And interestingly, much of this process happens below our conscious awareness. National Geographic explains that humans communicate emotions through facial gestures. And control of these gestures lies in the brainstem and the amygdala below consciousness. This means our brains are constantly scanning facial expressions, tone of voice, body language, emotional energy, and social cues, often before we are consciously aware of it. And this connects us directly back to theory of mind. Because when we try to understand another person's intentions, their, their emotional state, their motivation or perspective, our attention naturally increases. The brain becomes more engaged because socially relevant information carries survival and emotional importance. Or in other words, emotion drives our attention. Attention strengthens our memory, memory influences our behavior, and repeated behaviors are what shape our results. Takeaway 4 Motivation increases when people feel understood. When we understand what drives someone, what matters to them, what rewards them, we can communicate more effectively and create stronger motivation based on what matters to them. This applies to leadership, teaching, parenting, coaching, relationships, sales, and teamwork. Takeaway 5 Vision alone is not enough. Walt Disney could see the future theme park. But theory of mind suggests that great visionaries must also understand how others perceive the vision. If people can't emotionally connect to an idea, they may not act on it. Like Art Linkletter, Leadership requires vision, communication, empathy, and understanding each individual's motivation. So how do we put these ideas into action? Theory of mind. The ability to understand another person's thoughts, emotions, intentions and motivations is one of the most practical social and emotional skills we can develop. And why does it matter so much? Because human behavior almost always gives clues before. Before words are spoken, the brain is constantly reading facial expressions, tone of voice, body language, emotional energy, engagement levels, and social cues. And the more we practice observing these cues, the stronger our theory of mind becomes. And this skill is powerful in both the classroom and the workplace because it helps us to better understand what what people are feeling, what motivates them, what captures their attention, and what they might need before they even say it. And I'm still working on learning this skill. You can take a theory of mind. Test yourself to see your own skill. Let's look at some tips to implement Theory of mind tip 1 Ask better questions and understand perspective Instead of assuming people think like you do, ask ask them how do you see this? What stands out to you and what would make this meaningful for you? Strong communication begins with understanding another person's perspective. Not everyone processes information the same way. Remember, some people are visual learners, auditory thinkers, emotional processors, logical analyzers, or action oriented learners. The better we understand how people experience the world, the the better we can connect, teach, lead, and communicate. Tip 2 Focus on emotional Relevance the brain remembers and pays attention to what feels meaningful before presenting an idea, before teaching a lesson or coaching a team or leading a conversation, ask why would this matter to this person? When the brain sees emotional relevance, attention increases, motivation increases, learning improves, and memory strengthens. And this is where theory of mind becomes incredibly important. Not everyone is emotionally moved by the same things. What feels meaningful, motivating, rewarding, or emotionally important to one person may feel completely irrelevant to another. Why? Because emotional relevance is shaped by past experiences, memories, beliefs, goals, fears, personality, values, relationships, identity, and even our biology. The brain is constantly asking, does this matter to me? Is this connected to my goals or survival and should I pay attention to this? And the answer is different for Every person. Tip 3 Strengthen observation skills Theory of mind improves through intentional observation. Pay attention to facial expressions, tone changes, stress signals, emotional reactions, posture, engagement levels, and energy shifts. Often people communicate discomfort, confusion, anxiety, or frustration long before they verbalize it. We dove deep into this topic on episode 163 with Dan Hill, who who for more than 20 years has specialized in studying how emotions drive behavior, especially through the analysis of facial expressions. And he often says, the most valuable 25 square inches of visual territory on earth runs from the eyebrows to the mouth because this is where people clearly reveal the effective responses that influence how they think, how they decide they connect, buy, lead, compete, and how they communicate. Four tips to use these skills in the Classroom Imagine how much easier teaching and learning could become if educators recognized emotional cues before a student became overwhelmed. A teacher might notice rising anxiety before a test, frustration during an assignment, embarrassment about asking for help, disengagement before behavior problems begin or or nervousness before a presentation or sporting event. This awareness creates an opportunity to intervene early. Sometimes all it takes is reassurance or encouragement, movement, a breathing strategy, emotional support, or the student simply feeling seen and understood. And neuroscience tells us this matters deeply. When students Feel anxious or emotionally unsafe. Like we covered in phase one, the brain shifts towards survival and threat detection. But when the student feels emotionally regulated, supported, socially connected, and understood, the systems for attention, learning, memory and performance begin functioning more effectively. Five tips to use these skills in the workplace. The same principle applies in professional environments. Imagine being able to recognize what someone needs before they say it. For example, noticing a customer searching for assistance, sensing frustration through facial expressions, identifying confusion during communication, recognizing the stress in a coworker, or observing disengagement during a meeting. And this ability to use this skill improves teamwork, leadership, communication, the customer experience, empathy, and performance under pressure. Tip 6 Build motivation through understanding, not pressure. People are more motivated when they feel seen, understood, valued, emotionally connected, Sustained motivation rarely comes from force. It comes from meaning, connection, safety, and understanding. So what happens when pressure replaces understanding? From a neuroscience perspective, excessive pressure activates the brain's stress and threat systems. When people feel judged, criticized, controlled, rushed, emotionally unsafe, or afraid of failure, the brain shifts towards survival mode. And when this happens, our attention narrows. Creativity decreases, emotion regulation weakens, motivation drops, and performance suffers. Instead of feeling inspired, people begin focusing on avoiding mistakes, avoiding embarrassment, avoiding punishment, or protecting themselves emotionally. Pressure may create short term compliance, but it rarely creates long term motivation, growth or engagement. And this is especially important in classrooms where with athletics, with leadership, parenting, coaching and workplace environments. And as we covered in phase one. The brain performs best when challenges balance with support. And this doesn't mean removing accountability. It means creating environments where people feel safe enough to try, to fail, to learn, to adapt and to grow without fear. Shutting down the systems needed for learning and performance. And this is why the best teachers, the best coaches, parents and leaders simply don't push harder. They understand what motivates each individual person, what emotionally drives them, what supports they need, and how to help them to feel capable and connected. Because understanding fuels motivation far more effectively than pressure alone. And 7. Protect your attention. Attention is one of the brain's most powerful filtering systems. At every moment, the brain is deciding what matters to me, what should I focus on, what should I ignore? And what is worth repeating. And this is where attention connects directly to reward. Because the brain naturally pays attention to what it believes will lead to reward, meaning safety, connection, achievement, pleasure, or emotional significance. In other words, attention directs our behavior. Reward reinforces this behavior, and together they shape the motivation loop. And this is exactly what we see in phase two of our roadmap. Belief influences what we think is possible. Our thought patterns shape our neurochemistry. Attention determines what we focus on. And reward determines what we repeat. And over time, repeated patterns of attention begin shaping our thoughts, our emotions, our habits, our behaviors, and ultimately our results. Attention literally helps to train the brain. And this is why understanding ourselves, other people, emotion, motivation and what drives our behavior becomes so important. Because the more intentional we can direct our attention, the more intentionally we shape our learning, our communication, our performance, our relationships, our habits, and eventually our long term results. Because where attention goes, the brain follows. And what the brain repeatedly rewards becomes our behavior. Now, in our second clip, Dr. Medina explains that theory of mind, the ability to understand another person's thoughts, emotions, motivations and intentions, is not just something we're born with. It's a skill that can be strengthened and developed. And Dr. Medina reinforces the Reading the Mind and the Eyes test developed by Simon Baron Cohen, which measures a person's ability to interpret emotions and mental states by looking only at facial cues around the eyes. But what becomes especially fascinating is how neuroscience research shows how we can improve this skill. According to Medina, one of the most effective ways to strengthen theory of mind is through reading high quality narrative fiction, especially award winning literature. Why? Because great fiction allows readers to enter the psychological interior of another person, to experience different perspectives, to understand emotions, motivations and struggles, and mentally simulate someone else's experience. In other words, reading literary fiction trains the brain to better understand people. And Medina explains that nonfiction alone doesn't appear to improve theory of mind in the same way. But narrative storytelling activates social and emotional processing systems in the brain and it helps readers to become more empathetic, more observant and socially aware. Let's listen to his clip.
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C
Well, we actually know how to boost theory of mind scores. There's a test called the rme Reading the Mind in the Eyes test by Simon Baron Cohen. He's at University of Oxford. He is the yes, cousin of Sacha Baron Cohen, the humorist, and I guess you call him somewhat performance artist. He created the Reading the Mind and the Eyes test which can measure theory of mind. So the question you can ask is how do you improve that score? We know the answer. The answer is really interesting. What you have to do is that for a month you have to commit to this. Start reading 10, 15 minutes a day narrative fiction by people who won National Book Awards. No kidding. The controls were done like a non fiction book. Like you could read Brain Rules. But it's not going to improve your theory of mine. But you know, Hillary Mantel and William Faulkner will. People that have actually won, you know, the heavyweights that have won awards and so what you do, you do that for a month and what you can see is that as people begin to engage and they'll maybe write down some of the things that they're reading, they're peering into the psychological interiors of people who know their way around a paragraph. That's why you have to have a National Book Award winner to get to get these data. The more you do that, the higher your theory of mind scores go. So I would have encouraged Art and Walt to enter into a book club together. You know, William Faulkner had won his Nobel Prize by the time they were interacting. You know, get out light in August or something so that they could read it. That will improve your theory of mind and it will improve it for anybody. I would encourage teachers because theory of mind is a powerful ability and it's a skill that can be developed, no question about it. It's good to know when your student is bewildered by something. Yes, and theory of mind will do that. I would encourage teachers to form book clubs and read really good award winning literature and be in line with what the what the brain science says to do.
- [29:18]
A
So how do we put this idea into action? Dr. Medina suggests reading just 10 to 15 minutes a day for a month. This can measurably improve theory of mind scores. He emphasizes that this skill is especially important for teachers, leaders, parents, coaches and anyone working closely with people because it helps us to recognize when someone is confused, when they're overwhelmed, emotionally distressed, disengaged, or struggling internally before they verbalize it. One of the strongest recommendations is for educators to form book clubs and engage with meaningful award winning literature together. Why? Because theory of mind improves through repeated exposure to perspective taking, emotional storytelling, social complexity and human experience. The more we understand how other people think and feel, the stronger our communication, empathy, leadership, learning and relationships become. Now, as we close out this week's episode 395, I think one of the most biggest ideas we've uncovered and is that the brain is not randomly paying attention to the world around us. Attention is selective. The brain is constantly filtering. What matters, what determines this filter is often our emotion, our meaning, the relevance, intention, our reward and human connection. And reward is the brain's reinforcement signal. It tells us what matters, what to move towards and what behaviors are, are worth repeating. And this is why theory of mind becomes so important in phase two of our season 15 roadmap. Because once we understand what motivates people, what emotionally drives them, what captures their attention, and what rewards or what matters the most to them that drives their behavior, then we can begin to understand what truly drives human performance. This week's episode connected several important ideas together. That our belief shapes our neurochemistry, that our thought patterns influence our attention. That emotion strengthens memory, reward reinforces behavior. And repeated attention patterns shape our habits and results. And this is exactly how the motivation loop works. What we repeatedly focus on literally helps train the brain through neuroplasticity. This means that repeated focus on stress strengthens stress pathways. Repeated focus on fear reinforces fear. And repeated focus on growth, meaning and possibility strengthens those pathways as well. And this is why protecting our attention matters so much. Where attention goes, the brain follows. And what the brain repeatedly rewards eventually becomes our behavior. One of the most practical takeaways from Dr. Medina's work is that theory of mind is not fixed, it can be developed. We can strengthen this skill by becoming better observers, listening more carefully, paying attention to emotional cues, asking better questions, and intentionally trying to understand another person's perspective. And Medina's recommendation to read high quality narrative fiction was especially fascinating because it shows us that the brain can literally be trained to better understand people. And why does this matter? Because whether we're teaching students, leading teams, coaching athletes, parenting children, serving customers, or building relationships, understanding people improves communication, motivation, empathy, learning, leadership, and overall performance. It also reminds us of something else we introduced earlier this season. The brain performs best when challenges balanced with support. Pressure alone may create short term compliance. But understanding creates trust, psychological safety, emotional connection, resilience, and sustainable motivation. And this brings us back to the core question we're exploring in phase two. What actually drives human behavior forward? This week's answer may be this. Attention, meaning emotional relevance, reward and human connection. Because once we understand what captures attention, what creates creates emotional relevance and what the brain finds meaningful, we begin to understand what drives behavior. And this is where everything connects back to the motivation loop that we've been building through Phase two. The brain naturally pays attention to what it believes is important, rewarding, emotionally meaningful, or worth pursuing. And this is where attention and reward become deeply connected. This is where dopamine enters the picture. Next week, we'll revisit our interview with Dr. Anna Lembke, who explains in her book Dopamine Nation that dopamine is not just about pleasure. It's about motivation, anticipation, pursuit, and what the brain decides is worth the effort. So when attention and reward are aligned, learning increases, memory strengthens, motivation rises, behavior becomes repeatable, and dopamine helps to reinforce the behavior. But when attention and reward become disconnected, focus decreases, motivation drops, learning weakens, emotional disengagement increases and the motivation loop begins to break down. This is why understanding attention, emotion, reward, meaning and human motivation becomes so important. Because what the brain repeatedly pays attention to, to and repeatedly rewards eventually shapes our habits, our behaviors, our performance, and ultimately our results. Where attention goes, the brain follows, and what the brain repeatedly rewards or what matters most to us that we determine is worth repeating eventually becomes our behavior. I'm Andrea Samadhi and this is the Neuroscience Meets Social Emotional Learning Podcast where we continue exploring how the brain systems work together. Because when regulation, attention, motivation, learning, movement and emotion become aligned, performance improves, learning accelerates, relationships strengthen and results become more consistent. As we continue bridging neuroscience, emotional intelligence and human performance, we help turn awareness into action, learning into results, and potential into performance. We'll see you next week.
- [36:38]
C
If you're enjoying the Neuroscience Meets Social and Emotional Learning podcast, please don't forget to subscribe so you'll stay up to date with our new episodes. While you're there, please feel free to give us a review or a five star rating as it helps others find us. For more information on our programs, books and tools for schools and the workplace, Visit us at www. AchieveIt360.com.