Podcast
Never the Same
Hosted by Dr. Tony Pisani · EN
"Never the Same" is an interview-based podcast exploring how different work streams intersect with suicide prevention, career development, and life lessons. The title draws inspiration from Heraclitus' quote, "No man ever steps in the same river twice, for it's not the same river and he's not the same man," reflecting the ever-changing nature of life and personal growth. Each episode features conversations with guests from various fields, highlighting defining moments and shifts in thinking. The podcast aims to uncover new insights for suicide prevention while offering broader perspectives on personal and professional growth.
15episodes
Episodes
Newest firstAll episodes
What Jazz, Social Work, and AI Have in Common with Dr. Jonathan Singer
Mar 501:10:42Tap to summarizeIn this episode of Never the Same, Dr. Tony Pisani sits down with Jonathan Singer, a social work professor at Loyola University, co-author of Suicide in Schools, and past president of the American Association of Suicidology. Jonathan is also the creator of The Social Work Podcast, which he started in 2007 while teaching as a doctoral student. He thought “25 people would listen,” but by the end of the semester, there had been over 3000 downloads, from 80 countries.They explore how jazz improvisation shaped Jonathan’s approach to therapy and collaboration, why schools with fewer suicides pay attention to “weak signals,” and what postvention can look like after a student suicide death.Guest BioJonathan Singer is a social work professor at Loyola University and the co-author of Suicide in Schools. He is the past president of the American Association of Suicidology. Jonathan is also the host and creator of the Social Work Podcast.Referenced Resources The Social Work PodcastSuicide in Schools: A Practitioner's Guide to Multi-level Prevention, Assessment, Intervention, and Postvention Suicide Contagion Explainer Universal Suicide Risk Screening in Schools: Outcomes from 9 Years of ImplementationLife Under Pressure: The Social Roots of Youth Suicide Cook County real-time suicide data dashboardJohns Hopkins COVID dashboard
Transcribe →Serving Those Who Serve: First Responder Chaplain Steve Wickham
Jan 1301:03:33Tap to summarizeIn this moving conversation, Dr Tony Pisani speaks with Steve Wickham, a workplace health and safety professional, chaplain, and writer. Steve shares his remarkable journey from his early days as a tradesman in Western Australia, through personal trials of grief, loss, and recovery, to his current roles supporting first responders and families.With honesty and warmth, Steve opens up about the people who shaped his path, the importance of kinship and purpose, and the lessons he has learned from decades of walking alongside others in crisis. His reflections highlight the power of presence, humility, and hope in the face of life’s deepest challenges. Guest Bio: Steve Wickham is a chaplain, pastor, and writer based in Western Australia. He began his career as a tradesman before moving into health and safety in 1997, working for decades as a safety professional. Today, he serves as a part-time chaplain with the Department of Fire and Emergency Services and Children and Families Pastor at a Baptist church. Referenced Resources: The Entitlement Cure — Dr John TownsendHeartfelt (Australia) — photography and support for families experiencing stillbirth and infant lossEMDR (Eye Movement Desensitisation and Reprocessing)Department of Fire and Emergency Services (WA) — wellness and chaplaincy support
Transcribe →The Network Effect: Turning Protection into Connection
Nov 2400:42:40Tap to summarizeIn this special episode of Never the Same, we share the full keynote address from host, Professor Tony Pisani, delivered at the Suicide Prevention Australia Conference.Professor Pisani explores how the structure of our relationships—not just how supported we feel—can protect people from suicide risk. Drawing on studies in schools, the military, and health settings, he shows how strong, shared connections make a difference, especially when people don’t or can’t speak up.He introduces the Connect Program, a group-based training that strengthens team cohesion and reduces suicide risk without needing people to self-identify. The episode also includes real-world examples from Western Australia and beyond.It explores not only the importance of social structure in prevention, but HOW we can build those networks. Key Points CoveredWhy social structure matters in suicide preventionThe power of shared trusted adults in reducing suicide riskHow Connect builds protective networksInsights from high school and military researchShifting suicide reviews from blame to learningLocal examples from Western Australia, including first responder initiatives and postvention pilots🔗 Resources MentionedSafeSide Prevention: https://safesideprevention.com.auConnect Program: WA Workplace Connect info pageNever the Same podcast home: Podcast page
Transcribe →Leadership Reflections—Western Australia Chief Psychiatrist Nathan Gibson, Mental Health Commissioner Maureen Lewis
Sep 1501:21:24Tap to summarizeIn this episode of "Never the Same," Tony Pisani sits down with two of Western Australia's leading mental health voices: Maureen Lewis, Mental Health Commissioner since 2023, and Dr. Nathan Gibson, Chief Psychiatrist since 2013. Together, they represent both the vision for reform and the clinical guardrails of accountability in Western Australia’s mental health system.The conversation explores their unique roles in the mental health landscape, from commissioning services to regulatory oversight. They share insights on strategic leadership, including frameworks for crisis decision-making and the importance of "thinking time" in complex systems. The discussion covers First Nations mental health approaches, the integration of lived experience voices, and their shift toward trauma-informed care.Both leaders reflect on their accidental paths to leadership, the challenges of managing a mental health system across one of the world's largest geographic health services, and what gives them hope for the future. Their candid discussion offers valuable lessons for anyone interested in systemic change and leadership in challenging environments.Guests:Maureen Lewis was appointed Mental Health Commissioner for Western Australia in July 2023. In this role, she oversees the commissioning of all mental health and drug and alcohol services in Western Australia, a role that combines purchasing decisions with advocacy. Dr. Nathan Gibson has served as Western Australia's Chief Psychiatrist since 2013. He provides independent regulatory oversight under the Mental Health Act. His focus includes standards of care, quality, safety, and reducing restrictive practices across public and private psychiatric services.Host Dr. Tony Pisani is a professor, clinician, and founder of SafeSide Prevention, leading its mission to build safer, more connected military, health, education, and workplace communities.
Transcribe →Prof. Pat Dudgeon's Groundbreaking Life and Work on Social Emotional Wellbeing
Aug 1100:57:15Tap to summarizeIn this inspiring instalment of Never the Same, host Dr Tony Pisani welcomes Professor Pat Dudgeon, the first Aboriginal psychologist in Australia and a global voice for First Nations mental health. Pat describes how confronting the racism in the system sparked her mission to “decolonise” psychology and build a new framework called Social and Emotional Wellbeing, a model that places self, family, community, culture, and Country at the centre of healing.Across the episode, Pat and Tony revisit moments such as the Ways Forward national report, discuss why Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander suicide demands distinct responses, and celebrate community-led successes, from Indigenous Rangers caring for land to universities rewriting psychology curricula. Key PointsPat’s path to becoming the first Aboriginal psychologistOrigins and pillars of the SEWB paradigmThe Ways Forward report and Boat Shed DeclarationDistinct drivers of Aboriginal & Torres Strait Islander suicideSuccess stories: Indigenous Rangers, psychology curriculum reformThe role of climate action and caring for Country Resources MentionedWays Forward: National Aboriginal & Torres Strait Islander Mental Health Policy Report SEWB model diagram & “Working Together” chapter Dance of Life wellbeing model by Prof Helen MilroySweetgrass Research Method — Dr Mark Standing Eagle BaezIndigenous Rangers Program (Australia) Professor Pat Dudgeon is a Bardi woman from the Kimberley and Australia’s first Aboriginal psychologist. She co-chairs the Centre of Best Practice in Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Suicide Prevention and advocates for culturally informed mental-health systems worldwide.Dr. Tony Pisani is a professor, clinician, and founder of SafeSide Prevention, leading its mission to build safer, more connected military, health, education, and workplace communities.
Transcribe →A Global Vision for Crisis Support: Alan Woodward's Hope for the Future
Jul 1401:46:39Tap to summarizeAlan Woodward has spent decades strengthening crisis services around the world — from answering calls on the Lifeline crisis line to advising government leaders and building new programs. In this episode, Alan reflects on what it takes to face hard moments, how crisis services save lives, and why kindness (to others and ourselves) matters more than we realise.Together, we explore the lessons Alan learned growing up in a coastal city in Australia, navigating career changes, managing anxiety, and staying committed to making the world better.Guest: Alan Woodward is a global leader in crisis support and suicide prevention. His work spans decades of service as a researcher, advocate, and advisor to governments and organisations, with deep roots in community-based care.Host: Dr. Tony Pisani is a professor, clinician, and founder of SafeSide Prevention, leading its mission to build safer, more connected military, health, education, and workplace communities. Resources and References Mentioned: Madelyn Gould, Columbia University – suicide prevention research.Consensus Statement on Crisis Support from international crisis line networksInternational Association for Suicide Prevention – work on decriminalisation of suicide Lifeline International – Alan’s current organisation Ghana's Decriminalisation of Suicide – paper Australia’s National Suicide Prevention Strategy – released this year Professor Rory O’Connor – theory of suicide and the role of entrapmentRoyal Commission into Robodebt (Australia) – Submission from Suicide Prevention Australia
Transcribe →What about the Children? Five Values for Multiracial Families with Nicole Doyley
Jun 1701:17:54Tap to summarizeNicole Doyley’s life and writing centre on one key question: What about the children?In this episode, Nicole reflects on growing up in a biracial family, her evolving racial identity, and the parenting values she developed as a result. She discusses transracial adoption, the impact of Black History Month, how culture shapes resilience, and why awareness and humility are essential for any caregiver.Nicole shares her family’s story, from her parents’ marriage in the 1960s (when their marriage was still illegal in some states) to her own cross-cultural marriage to a Jamaican man, and how these experiences shaped her understanding of race, belonging, and what it means to be “seen.”Guest: Nicole Doyley is an author and podcast host whose latest book, What About the Children? Five Values for Multiracial Families draws from her personal and professional experiences. Nicole grew up in a biracial family, served as a campus pastor, and now helps parents and communities navigate race, identity, and parenting with honesty and cultural awareness.Host: Dr. Tony Pisani is a professor, clinician, and founder of SafeSide Prevention, leading its mission to build safer, more connected military, health, education, and workplace communities.Resources and References: Nicole Doyley – What About the Children? Five Values for Multiracial FamiliesChimamanda Ngozi Adichie – The Danger of a Single StoryThe Mis-Education of the Negro by Carter G. WoodsonLecrae – story of racial identity, healing, and therapyU.S. Census – changes to allow multiple racial identities (2000)Nicole's podcast – First a Man: growing up in a Black nation (featuring her husband Marvin)
Transcribe →Leading with Purpose: CEO Nieves Murray on Change, Compassion, and Community
May 18, 202501:46:54Tap to summarizeIn this episode, Nieves Murray, CEO of Suicide Prevention Australia, joins Dr. Tony Pisani for an insightful conversation about leadership, equity, and personal transformation. From her early career in engineering to leading national suicide prevention strategy, Nieves brings a rich mix of personal stories, professional insights, and hard-earned wisdom.Key ThemesThe power of bilingual and bicultural identityLeadership lessons from aged care, finance, and suicide preventionChanging minds: how experience reshapes perspectiveBalancing data with lived experience in policy workGrief, care, and learning from family Nieves Murray: Nieves Murray is the CEO of Suicide Prevention Australia and has spent over 35 years in leadership roles across aged care, finance, and human services. Recognised as one of Australia’s 100 Most Influential Women, she is a champion of systems thinking, community voice, and inclusive policy.Dr. Tony Pisani: Dr. Tony Pisani is a professor, clinician, and founder of SafeSide Prevention, leading its mission to build safer, more connected military, health, education, and workplace communities. Resources and References National Policy Platform by Suicide Prevention AustraliaGood to Great: Why Some Companies Make The Leap and Others Don't by Jim Collins
Transcribe →Structured Support in Suicide Prevention with Jacinta Hawgood
Apr 14, 202500:30:59Tap to summarizeWelcome to the Never the Same Podcast! Today, we dive into the science of suicide prevention with Jacinta Hawgood, a clinical psychologist, senior lecturer, and researcher at Griffith University.Host Tony Pisani is joined by Jacinta, a leader in the field with nearly 25 years of experience, to discuss how structured approaches like the STARS Protocol are reshaping conversations about suicide. Together, they explore:How STARS (Systematic Tailored Assessment for Responding to Suicidality) bridges structured tools and personal stories.Why protective factors and client-driven care are essential for meaningful interventions.How suicide prevention is evolving, with new roles for non-clinical professionals and lived experience leaders.The biggest misconceptions about suicide, including fears around asking direct questions.Jacinta also reflects on her career, how her thinking has changed over time, and why listening deeply is at the heart of effective care.Don't forget to like & subscribe so you never miss an episode! Together, we’re exploring the stories and strategies that can make a difference.(c) 2024. SafeSide Media, LLC.
Transcribe →When Young People Need Support: Conversations That Matter with Dr. Melissa Dundas
Mar 18, 202500:45:14Tap to summarizeIn this episode, Dr. Tony Pisani, Kristina Mossgraber, and Dr. Melissa Dundas discuss the critical role primary care providers play in youth suicide prevention. They share personal insights, professional experiences, and practical strategies to support young people beyond just referrals to mental health services.They cover how to build trust with youth, recognize warning signs, and create a culture of safety within healthcare settings and communities. Whether you're a clinician, educator, parent, or caregiver, this conversation offers valuable takeaways for fostering connection and providing effective support.Note: This episode was originally released in 2023 through a collaboration with Aetna as “Practical Advice About Youth Suicide Prevention in Primary Care”. We loved this chat with Dr Dundas so much we wanted to share it again with our Never the Same Audience. Guests:Kristina Mossgraber is a suicide prevention advocate with lived experience and part of SafeSide’s faculty, dedicated to improving support systems for those struggling with mental health. Dr. Melissa Dundas is a pediatrician and adolescent medicine specialist passionate about integrating mental health support into primary care.Host: Dr. Tony Pisani is a clinical psychologist and educational media lead at SafeSide Prevention.Mentioned Resources:Evidence-based suicide-specific treatments.Safety planning intervention.Improving cultural competenceReformulating Suicide Risk Formulation, foreseeable changes. If you or someone you know needs support: National Suicide Prevention Lifeline (US): 988Lifeline (Australia) - 1800 551 800 Lifeline (New Zealand) - Phone: 0800 543 354 or Text 4357Production Credits:Hannah Mang, Senior Video Editor and ProducerAnnie Lewis, Content and Communications ManagerLuke Pisani, Music (c) 2024. SafeSide Media, LLC.
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