New Books Network: Radio Reorient — Episode 13.3

Guests: Ismail Patel & Hatem Bazian
Date: October 31, 2025
Theme: The Long View of Pro-Palestinian Resistance

Episode Overview

This wide-ranging episode of Radio Reorient explores the histories, roles, and strategies of pro-Palestinian activism, with particular attention to protest, the role of education, intersectional solidarities, and current political dynamics. Host Amina Essat Das is joined by Hatem Bazian (UC Berkeley, Islamophobia Studies) and Ismail Patel (Friends of Al Aqsa) to reflect on grassroots resistance, educational activism, and the trajectory of global solidarity for Palestine, especially since October 7, 2024.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Personal Journeys into Activism ([03:29] - [08:29])

• Bazian describes being "born into the Palestine struggle" as a Palestinian, reflecting on formative experiences with Israeli soldiers in his youth, and how these shaped his lifelong commitment to advocacy in the US.

  "You're born into the Palestine struggle from the get go. ... My distinctive encounter with an Israeli soldier was actually crossing the bridge between Jordan and Palestine ... they had to strip [my mother] all to her underwear while I'm standing next to her in this room ..."
  — Hatem Bazian [03:33]

• Patel shares that his activism was sparked by an eye-opening accidental visit to Palestine in 1995, notably recognizing the apartheid system from his African perspective and realizing the public ignorance about the occupation:

  "It was the shock both of seeing what was happening on the ground and witnessing what I immediately recognized as apartheid ... What moved me most are two factors. One was not being aware of the occupation ... The second factor for me was actually visiting Al Aqsa Sanctuary ..."
  — Ismail Patel [06:21]

2. The Role and Impact of Protest ([08:32] - [18:13])

• Bazian frames protest as a cumulative, historic process, not a response to a spark. He contextualizes pro-Palestinian activism alongside anti-apartheid, anti-racist, and other social justice movements, emphasizing the importance of localized organizing and the historic role of US universities:

  "Rather than think of the current protest movement as a spark, we need to think of it as a cumulative process ... I would say Israel and Zionism have always been on the wrong side of history ..."
  — Hatem Bazian [09:41]

• Patel highlights protests as multifaceted tools for change: inspiring solidarity, challenging dominant narratives, pressuring politicians, maintaining issue visibility, and offering hope to Palestinians. He underscores the value of collective visibility:

  "Protests are to inspire each other, you know, challenge the Zionist extremist narrative ... protests are to give hope to the oppressed, the Palestinians ..."
  — Ismail Patel [14:44]

  "... seeing hundreds of thousands of people together at a protest affirms that ... you are not alone. ... It enforces solidarity for the cause of Palestine."
  — Ismail Patel [15:30]

3. Building Intersectional Solidarity ([18:13] - [27:47])

• Discussion shifts to how Palestine solidarity movements have overlapped with anti-war (Iraq), anti-racist, and queer movements. Patel notes different objectives between anti-Iraq War and Palestine protests, but emphasizes that both are part of a critique of Western imperial power:

  "A lot of people will converge on the consensus that what was happening in Iraq is part and parcel of a colonialist project ... and this is where Israel fits in ..."
  — Ismail Patel [19:59]

• Bazian critiques post-Cold War Western policy, highlighting the rise of Islamophobia, cultural anxieties, and the function of Israel as a linchpin in ongoing colonial projects:

  "The Iraq War ... comes at the juncture of the end of the Cold War and the search for a new enemy ... the military industrial complex ... with Israel as a state that fits within the broader Western imperial colonial discourses ..."
  — Hatem Bazian [21:55]

4. Education and “Scholasticide”: Weaponizing and Destroying Knowledge ([29:02] - [39:39])

• Patel provides chilling statistics on the destruction of Gaza’s universities since October 7, emphasizing the systematic erasure of the intellectual infrastructure and the deliberate attempt to make Palestinians “dependent on charity.” He challenges global academia to boycott complicit Israeli institutions:

  "What we have taking place here is the destruction of the whole educational system in Gaza ... So universities have a pivotal role to play and the destruction of university itself ... is not accidental, it has a purpose and it feeds into the genocidal mentality of Israel."
  — Ismail Patel [29:40]

• Bazian critiques Western university complicity in war and oppression, pointing out that campuses often function as training and legitimation grounds for oppressive systems, with only rare voices of dissent:

  "The university system increasingly is part of the reproduction of the system. We graduate replacement parts for the economy, military, industrial complex, corporate structure and so on ... For the most part, the university is wedded, connected at the hip to every element of the power system."
  — Hatem Bazian [32:18]

  "Many ... peddling books and materials on decolonization ... have actually taken possibly a vacation in Mars with Elon Musk, because Mars needs to be decolonized before you could actually speak about decolonization in any place of meanings and substance."
  — Hatem Bazian [37:26]

• Patel distinguishes the liberatory mission of universities in colonized regions versus their Western counterparts:

  "When you have as people who are occupied, their educational structures are trying to use scholars to emancipate and to liberate themselves from the occupation."
  — Ismail Patel [38:59]

5. Politics, Elections, and the Limits of Mainstream Change ([39:43] - [48:45])

• Both guests analyze political developments in the UK/US/France, highlighting collapsing faith in mainstream parties, failures of democracy, and continuous Zionist alignment with establishment power:

  "What we are witnessing is the total failure of politics and the political order and elite in the Western society ... What Gaza did and the genocide, it exposed ... that there is [no] distinction between them."
  — Hatem Bazian [42:28]

  "The other thing the Gaza war has exposed is the hypocrisy of the Western political system and structures ... and both what that has resulted in is the lack of trust in politicians ... in effect that undermines democracy itself."
  — Ismail Patel [47:00]

6. Visions of Victory and Liberation ([48:45] - [49:35])

• Both guests articulate succinct yet profound visions for what "winning" looks like:

  "I would say both free Palestine and free the societies that we are in so people actually can live a full, meaningful life that they are not indebted from the cradle to the grave."
  — Hatem Bazian [49:14]

  "For me it would be bringing justice at the center of our lives, both locally, nationally and internationally."
  — Ismail Patel [49:26]

Panel Reflection: Recognition of Palestine — Symbolism Versus Liberation ([50:51] - [62:27])

• The hosts reflect on contemporary events (UK, Canada, Australia recognizing the Palestinian state), critiquing the symbolic nature of such "recognition" versus authentic liberation. They call attention to the colonial paternalism embedded in the gesture.

  "The chant is free Palestine, not recognize Palestine ... the idea that recognizing Palestine would itself be a liberatory tactic ... rests on a very colonial world order where freedom is something that you get from your colonial masters ... rather than something that you have an absolute right to."
  — Chella Ward [50:51]

• Recognition is characterized as tokenistic, conditioned, and belated—a move by colonial powers when “the damage has been done.” The panel draws parallels to processes of delayed recognition after other genocides (e.g., Bosnia).

  "The conditionality of that recognition ... feels the most colonial. Right? It's premised on demilitarization. It's premised on this kind of repeated, constant idea that ... Before we can say anything, we ought to condemn Hamas."
  — Chella Ward [58:16]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the meaning and function of protest:

  "Protests are to give hope to the oppressed, the Palestinians ... it allows them to stay there and say, you know what, we can continue. There are people who are helping us."
  — Ismail Patel [17:00]

• On university complicity:

  "The university system increasingly is part of the reproduction of the system ... for the most part, the university is wedded, connected at the hip to every element of the power system."
  — Hatem Bazian [32:18]

• On intersectional solidarity:

  "Coalition ... to critique policies domestically and transnationally. Because ... you cannot actually delink the national from the transnational, whether in the US or any other places."
  — Hatem Bazian [26:56]

• On hopes for liberation:

  "Bringing justice at the center of our lives, both locally, nationally and internationally."
  — Ismail Patel [49:26]

Key Timestamps

• [03:29] — Guests share personal origin stories in activism
• [09:41] — Differences in protest organizing in US vs UK
• [14:44] — Patel lists multifaceted significance of protest
• [19:59] — Discussion of intersectionality and shared struggles
• [29:02] — Gaza's universities destroyed: “scholasticide”
• [32:18] — Bazian on university complicity in systems of oppression
• [42:28] — Mainstream politics critiqued in US, UK, France
• [49:14] — Visions for “winning” in the movement
• [50:51] — Panel reflects on symbolic recognition of Palestine

Episode Tone

The conversation is passionate, analytical, and deeply personal, reflecting lived experience and scholarship. The tone is critical of Western governmental and academic complicity, steadfast in resistance, and insistent on re-centering justice and solidarity.

Conclusion

This episode offers a nuanced, historically grounded analysis of the pro-Palestinian movement, highlighting the importance of collective protest, intellectual resistance, and challenging systems of oppression. It refuses shallow gestures of recognition, insisting instead on meaningful liberation—both for Palestine and societies globally embedded in coloniality.

Recommended Actions for Listeners:

• Rethink the function and goals of protest
• Examine the complicity of academic institutions
• Cultivate intersectional and international solidarities
• Remain skeptical of symbolic political gestures without material change