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- [00:00]
Marshall Po
Go beyond the verses and achieve a deeper understanding of Scripture with the Rebind Study Bible App. An audio experience of the Bible interwoven with expert commentary. The Rebind Study Bible App reads Scripture to you, enriching your comprehension with insights from the world renowned New International commentary on the Old and the New Testament in an accessible podcast episode format. Be not therefore anxious for the morrow.
- [00:24]
Saeed Khan
Matthew chapter 6 each day will have.
- [00:27]
Chella Ward
Its troubles, but by God's grace they can be survived.
- [00:31]
Marshall Po
Use the Rebind Study Bible App's chat function to ask questions and get answers in real time. That's thought provoking discussion and analysis rooted in decades of research and wisdom from more than 40 scholars at your fingertips. The Rebind Study Bible App is a new way to experience the Bible with enhanced depth, at your own pace in the moments you have. Search the Apple App Store for Rebind Study Bible or go to rebind app.com newbooks network for a free seven day trial. Hello everybody, this is Marshall Po. I'm the founder and editor of the New Books Network and if you're listening to this, you know that the NBN is the largest academic podcast network in the world. We reach a worldwide audience of 2 million people. You may have a podcast or you may be thinking about starting a podcast. As you probably know, there are challenges basically of two kinds. One is technical. There are things you have to know in order to get your podcast produced and distributed. And the second is, and this is the biggest problem, you need to get an audience. Building an audience in podcasting is the hardest thing to do today. With this in mind, we at the NBM have started a service called NBN Productions. What we do is help you create a podcast, produce your podcast, distribute your podcast and we host your podcast. Most importantly, what we do is we distribute your podcast to the NBN audience. We've done this many times with many academic podcasts and we would like to help you. If you would be interested in talking to us about how we can help you with your podcast, please contact us. Just go to the front page of the New Books Network and you will see a link to NBN Production. Click that, fill out the form and we can talk. Welcome to the New Books Network.
- [02:32]
Claudia Radovan
Foreign.
- [02:41]
Saeed Khan
Listeners, and welcome to this episode of season 13 of Radio Reorient, part of the Critical Muslim Studies Project. I'm Saeed Khan and I have with me my co hosts Claudia Radovan, Amina, Isad Das and Marshall Award. This episode features a conversation with Zumrate Arkin of the World Uyghur Congress.
- [02:59]
Chella Ward
The genocide of the Uyghurs in East Turkestan that we're going to be talking about in this episode began to pick up more international attention after massive crackdowns in 2017, bringing attention to issues like mass detention in concentration camps, as well as accusations of forced sterilization and removal of children. The conversation that Claudia and I had with Zamratay is one of many discussions we've had on this issue at Radio Reorient, including in the previous season where we spoke to Darren Byler about his book on the subject Terror Capitalism.
- [03:30]
Claudia Radovan
This conversation drew on other examples of colonization and projects of global Islamophobia, including Palestine, Kashmir, and the attacks on the Rohingya in Myanmar, where we were able to see the family resemblances between these various assaults on Muslims, Muslimness and Muslim political expression.
- [03:51]
Amina Isad Das
Also spoke at length about the practical work being done and how others can show solidarity. So, without further ado, let's listen in.
- [03:59]
Claudia Radovan
Hi, everyone.
- [04:00]
Chella Ward
Assalamualaikum, and welcome back to another episode of Radio Reorient. My name is Chella Ward. I'm joined here today by my co host, Claudia Radovan, and we are really, really excited to be joined by Samarate Akin from the World Uyghur Congress, who we're really, really looking forward to having a conversation with. So I won't preempt it too much, Samarate. We'll just launch straight in, if that's all right with you. So could you perhaps start by just explaining for our listeners the situation of the Uyghurs in East Turkestan? How did it come about? What sorts of circumstances are people living in? Could you just kind of set that up and maybe tell us a little bit about its history?
- [04:41]
Zumratay Arkin
Sure. Salaam alaikum. It's my pleasure to be here. Thank you for welcoming me. Yeah, I mean, the situation right now, I think we can just call it as. As it is a genocide. And the way it cited, of course, it goes back to colonialism. Actually, in 1949, in October 1949, we were. Uyghur people were colonized. So Uyghur people refer to their homeland as East Turkestan, which is the historical name, but after the colonization, the Chinese government renamed it as the Uyghur Autonomous Xinjiang. Uyghur Autonomous Region. Xinjiang means a new frontier. So that also in the name itself, it actually indicates that it is colonialism. So since the colonialism, there were multiple policies and directives that were introduced that slowly led to where we are now why I say this is because after the colonialism took place, they were forced migration of Han Chinese people. So in the beginning it was mostly administrative people and their families migrating to East Turkestan. But then later on that expanded and then Han Chinese people became prominent in the region itself. And then I guess there were several key periods where the policies towards Uyghurs really intensified in terms of repression and discrimination. In 1993 there was mass protests that cited in Ruzha because the government, the Chinese government banned the practice of Mashrab. Meshreb is a gathering of Uyghurs, mostly men, but they're also female. Sometimes that is a celebration of Uyghur culture and also religion. And it's a deep, you know, it's, it's a very important part of our identity and culture. And when the government banned it, there was mass protests happening and then there was a crackdown. But I would say the other key moment was post 9 11, because before 911 Uyghurs were mostly characterized or labeled as separatists. But then 911 happened, the international War on Terror happened. The Chinese government co opted that and started accusing Uyghurs as terrorists because Uyghurs are mostly Muslims. So I guess after 911 there were a series of measures introduced to really restrict, you know, a lot of freedoms. And then later on in July 2009, there was the Urumqi massacre that happened, which was a protest, a democratic protest that happened in the city, in the capital city of Urumqi actually. I was present that summer and I arrived just a few, two days after the protest started. And it lasted for about a week where thousands of people took the streets to demand more rights for Uyghurs. And that just led to a heavy crackdown on Uyghur protesters. And there were of course inter ethnic clashes as well. And so after that the Chinese government introduced series of legislation and directives, especially after the arrival of Xi Jinping to power, where he recognized Uyghurs as a, as a problem, especially because of our religious identity and also because of course where we identify as Muslims, but also because we identify as Turkic people. And then the counterterrorism laws, the regulation on the extremifications were adopted in the following years together paired with a mass surveillance network that was implemented by the then governor Chen Chong Guo, who was previously appointed in Tibet and who had similarly led this campaign of mass surveillance. And so paired with that system of sophisticated surveillance, 2017 was kind of the beginning of the heavy crackdown on Uyghurs by heavy crackdown. What I mean is the arbitrary detention of over three millions of Uyghurs and Turkic people in internment camps, and some people refer them as concentration camps. So it's basically these people, Uyghurs and Turkic people, have found themselves all of a sudden guilty of a fabricated charge, most often related to terrorism, which the government just, you know, overnight alleged that these people committed specific crimes under the counterterrorism legislation that is in place, which was then condemned by UN experts. So all of a sudden we have these news emerging from the region that, you know, millions of people have disappeared into these camps. And then that's when international media started reporting about it. And later on, they were leaked documents that also confirmed leaked documents from the Chinese government that confirmed that people were detained for all sorts of reasons, but also for normal religious behaviors such as praying five times a day, owning a Quran, owning religious textbooks, teaching Islam, naming your child with Islamic names. That was all forbidden. And those were some of the reasons why people were detained for. And also for women who were also detained for having too many children or for wearing a hijab. And then of course, there were also scholars, intellectuals, religious figures that were also targeted for different reasons. And I mean, since then, there were other policies that were introduced. For example, the most drastic policy is the forced sterilization policy, which is an attempt to really drop the birth rates in East Turkestan. And as a result of that, between 2017, 2019, there was a drastic drop of Uyghur birth rates. Meanwhile, the Chinese government has abandoned its one child policy in overall China to counter the aging population. But then in our region in East Turkestan, women were forcibly sterilized under this policy. So women of childbearing age. And then beyond that, of course, there was an attempt to also separate families, not only those families who are living in the diaspora like us, we have lost contact with our relatives in 2017. And since today, since then, until today, we have had no contact with our relatives. So we don't know, for the most of us, we don't know where our relatives are, their whereabouts, if they're alive or not, but also an attempt to forcibly separate families within East Turkestan. So by, for example, sending Uyghur children to state run orphanages or boarding schools, which is similar in Tibet. So approximately a million Uyghur children have been sent to these boarding schools where they're basically assimilated into Han Chinese identity. So they cannot speak their mother tongue, they cannot practice their religion or celebrate their culture, they're separated from their parents. And then you have all of these forced labor schemes, which is also an attempt to separate families because people are coerced into working in factories for different. In different industries, for different companies, including foreign companies, and they're sent to Chinese provinces, so thousands of kilometers away away from their families, and they're restricted in their freedom of movement, so they cannot visit their families when they want. So with all of that came this kind of isolation of Uyghurs, and also this attempt to erase our ethnic, cultural, religious identity by, of course, forbidding religious, you know, behavior, by forbidding practice, cultural practices, by destroying our cultural heritage and religious sites. For example, 16,000 mosques have been destroyed since. Since, you know, the time. And our. Our shrines are, you know, places of cultural and religious significance have all been targeted and destroyed. So, and of course, with the surveillance, people do not dare to live as they want to, even in the privacy of their homes, because they are also surveilled within their homes with, you know, officials, Chinese officials, that are visiting them on a regular basis. So altogether, it gives you a pretty good picture of how life is in East Turkestan. And especially in the last few years, it has really escalated into a genocide. And there's this collective fear outside and inside. And this is exactly what the Chinese government wants.
- [14:38]
Claudia Radovan
Thank you for. I mean, what an incredibly detailed outline of what's been going on. And I think it's really useful. A number of the things that you highlighted, especially for people that may be. Have some awareness of what's going on, but not the sort of depth and the breadth of that kind of state suppression. I want to draw on a particular aspect that you mentioned, the various kinds of state surveillance and interference, particularly at a policy level. One of the sort of things that stands out for me about the approach of the Chinese state is the way that particular surveillance policies have been adapted. And there's been a number of assertions by academics and people working within security studies of the way that policies like prevent, which is the UK's deradicalization policy. Elements of that have then been taken by the Chinese state and applied against Uyghur populations. How do you feel that China's policies stand in relation to other projects of global Islamophobia? What do you think are some of the, how would you put it, Family resemblances of that. That kind of global Islamophobic project that we're seeing in a number of countries right now?
- [16:05]
Zumratay Arkin
That is an important question, I think, here. I mean, in this specific case, this is state imposed Islamophobia. I think this is, I guess what is different from other forms of Islamophobia because in other countries context, for example in Europe or in mostly in the Western world, yes, some regulations are of course implemented by the governance, but at the same time there are laws and norms that are there to protect.
- [16:39]
Chella Ward
Specific.
- [16:39]
Zumratay Arkin
Groups that are marginalized. In this specific case, Muslims. But in China, the laws themselves that are introduced are Islamophobic. They, you know, they incite or they actually give the ground, lay the ground for the state to, for example, infringe on people's rights, on people's religious freedoms and allow acts like burning of Qurans by local authorities. I don't think we see this happen in the west where these acts are present, of course, but they're mostly conducted by citizens or different entities that are not related to the government. The government might be in support of that, but not publicly. They have measures and mechanisms in place to protect the targeted group. In China it's the opposite. It is imposed by the state. And just taking also quotes from actually high level CCP officials that have said Islam is an ideological illness that must be eradicated. This was a very high level official and including Xi Jinping, he's used similar language around Islam and Uyghurs. So I think this is a bit different and I think this is what's dangerous because then it gives ground for the people, the citizens to do whatever they want to target Muslims who are living there and in this case, Uyghurs. And that is why in China you see today a lot of support for Chinese policies in, in the name of countering terrorism. You not only see this within China, within the population, but also outside by even Muslim majority countries that are supporting actively the Chinese government for their efforts to counter terrorism by implementing these policies that are oppressing Uyghur Muslims.
- [18:51]
Marshall Po
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- [19:53]
Chella Ward
I'm thinking about what you're saying. There is kind of reminding me particularly of the situation in France. I mean, obviously there are differences of scale here, but, but in France, you know, we're seeing very similar things where there are laws being made to criminalize, you know, everyday Muslim practices. There are Islamic schools being closed, there's surveillance of individuals. You know, and similarly to what you were saying about the Chinese government, there's this kind of co opting of 9, 11 and of the kind of logic, language of securitization to make the case for criminalizing Muslims, you know, doing very, very normal things or even just trying to, to have kind of organizations, educational organizations, political organizations. But I wanted to ask you a little bit about the role of the organization that, that you're involved with, the World Uyghur Congress. Because obviously within these kinds of repressions there are also always stories of resistance and of attempts to, to control and counter those horrific repressions. So I wonder if you could just tell about the World Uyghur Congress, what kind of work it does and what your role is within the organization.
- [21:10]
Zumratay Arkin
Sure. So the World Uyghur Congress is an international umbrella organization that is, that represents the collective interest of the Uyghur people. And the work that we do is mostly raising awareness and protecting Uyghurs their fundamental freedoms as well. And we also advocate for weavers to determine their own political future as well. So the main areas of work that we do is international advocacy. So really advocating for the rights of Uyghurs at the international level, which means in international institutions, mechanisms such as the United Nations, EU institutions, national governments, parliaments, and of course we work very, very closely with international civil society actors and other institutions. And for example, at the un, which is one of the portfolios that I'm responsible for, is we try to advocate for the issue of Uyghur, for example, the Uyghur genocide, to be discussed at the Human Rights Council or for a Resolution to be passed and voted at the Human Rights Council for different reports, communications by UN experts, treaty bodies, just to put pressure on China at the international level and then advocating for all sorts of resolutions and motions and legislations. For example, in recent years, we've been advocating a lot around legislation that will counter forced labor products entering different markets. For example, in the U.S. there was the EU Oiler Forced Labor Prevention act that was enacted in 2021 in Canada. Similarly in the EU, which the EU just passed last this past year, the four cyber regulation, as well as the Corporate Sustainability Due Diligence Directive and other efforts like this. And at the national level, of course, we brief governance about the ongoing situation. We organize different conferences, events to just raise awareness as well as to. We do a lot of capacity building for Uyghur youth because we believe that investing in the movement goes through investing to the youth. So that's one thing that, that we do on a regular basis as well as refugee support work. So we support and protect Uyghur refugees that are at risk of rufulmont from around the world and especially third countries that are not considered safe for them. So that's kind of like the, the scope of our work. We've been doing this for 20 years as an, as an institution and in, in my role, I am the Director of Global Advocacy. So I do kind of lead our international portfolio, international work. And as the chair of the Women's Committee, I also engage a lot with the community. So a lot of community building, youth outreach, women outreach, solidarity work as well.
- [24:42]
Chella Ward
Thank you. And we've talked about the persecution of the Uyghurs, the genocide against the Uyghurs as part of a project of Islamophobia. We've talked about the kind of Islamophobia of that project specifically in terms of the resistance then that you're sort of outlining here the different organizations that are involved in the resistance, the role of the un, the role of the international community. Is there a role also for Muslimness in that resistance?
- [25:08]
Zumratay Arkin
What kind of a role do you.
- [25:10]
Chella Ward
Think that Islam and Muslimness plays in that struggle? I mean, is there work being done among organizations that you're aware of to engage Muslims outside of East Turkestan in the plight of the Uyghurs? What's the kind of reaction been from Muslims to the genocide?
- [25:28]
Zumratay Arkin
Absolutely, yeah, I think it's absolutely crucial because I think this is also, as Muslims, you know, we have to, to be there for each other. And I think, you know, for example, the oic, which is kind of the organization that is supposed to advocate for all Muslims under persecution in the name of Ummah. They're, they're failing to. To do. To really fulfill their own mission. But I think it is incumbent on Muslims, Muslim citizens around the world, whether they live in the global north or in the global South. I think we have to show solidarity. And for us, being Muslim is one of the core part of our identity. Our identity is around Islam, and we've been. We've been Muslims for a thousand years, and we have really incorporated it into our identity. So like our culture and traditions, they're all related to Islam in one way or another. And it's also one of the main reasons we have kept our identity alive for until now, even, you know, through genocide, through trauma. I think it is our Muslim identity and our faith that has helped us. Even for those who are living in the diaspora, for example, being separated from your family for seven years and not knowing where they are, if they're alive or not, is extremely difficult and painful. But because of our fate, I think, and also because of the community, we've been able to be resilient in a way to resist oppression. And I do believe that there needs to be a broader solidarity. And I think. And we've been trying to do this work for. For years, and it's been. I would say it's been challenging. But I think it's mainly because there's a lack of awareness in many parts of the world where people don't know that Uyghurs are Muslims because there's this assumption that it's in China. And so automatically it's not considered, as, you know, were not considered as Muslims. But with great awareness came also great solidarity. We've studied this, especially in the global north in recent years, where we've been working with different religious groups and with Muslim Muslim communities around the world. And there's been really, I think, great solidarity from them. I think with Rohingyas, for example, we've learned a lot from them. We've done a lot of collaborative work as well, and as well as with Kashmiris and many others. And we're continuing to do this work. And I think the. Perhaps the key to getting support from Muslim majority countries is through the population itself, through building solidarity and support from the civil society who can then hold their own government to account when it comes to issues like the Uyghur issue and international forums. And of course, when we work within that space, we do differentiate always the stance of the government from the stance of their population, because there's a huge difference. And I think the population itself is very supportive when they are aware of the the situation and they listen to our stories and to witness testimonies and they look at the facts.
- [29:16]
Claudia Radovan
I think that's. I really enjoyed what you said about broadening solidarities and especially about the work that you mentioned that's done with the Rohingya and prejudiced populations in Kashmir. China's presence in East Turkestan is often described as a colonial occupation. And you mentioned these other examples. Do you think that this is a good description of the situation and how it's similar to, for example, ongoing occupations in Palestine, Kashmir and some of the other examples that you mentioned?
- [29:57]
Zumratay Arkin
I think there are a lot of similarities and it is a great way to describe the situation because it is colonial occupation and it is the genocide as a result of that as well. I think maybe what maybe differs a little bit from most situation is the that the government, the Chinese government has actually changed the demography in East Turkestan by incentivizing, for example, forced migration of Han Chinese in the beginning of 1950s, right after the colonization and after establishing the Xinjiang Autonomous Region. At the time when it was first colonized, you barely saw any Chinese people in East Turkestan. And today it's, I believe, maybe don't quote me on the statistics, but it's I believe, over 45% of Han Chinese who are present in the region. And by introducing all sorts of policies, for example, the poor sterilization policies, by reducing birth rates in the region, by reducing Uyghurs numbers, it's become almost like not a colony, but it's become part of, you know, the land that China has. And I think this is what maybe is a bit different from other contexts. And the influx just going back to the forced migration part as well as the influx became especially pronounced after 1990s. And then of course, by the late 20th century, the Han Chinese people constituted two fifths of the overall East Turkistan's population. And today I believe it is a bit more. And the other thing is that they have the Chinese government has of course, stolen land and resources like in many other contexts of colonization. And now it is using it as for their own economic drive. So you may have heard about the Belt and Road Initiative, which is one of the most largest infrastructure projects that China has ever, you know, done. And the key strategic areas are East Turkestan and Tibet and of course, southern Mongolia as well, all colonized lands. And this is China's attempt to also I suppose impose its own narrative and ideals to the rest of the world and connect China to the rest of the world by using these stolen and colonized lands and the resources on there. And of course, these projects and resources that, you know, they, they're, they're using, it's not to the benefit of the Uyghurs or the local, local population. It's to the benefit of the Chinese government and the Chinese state. And Uyghurs are being used to achieve that goal, for example, through a forced labor and many other incentives like this.
- [33:21]
Chella Ward
I'm thinking about the way that what you said there really, really reminds me of the situation in Palestine where you've also got settlement on illegally occupied land, you've also got mass building projects, things that are generating huge economic potential. But that is not coming into the pockets of Palestinians, just as it's not coming into the pockets of, of Uyghurs. As I'm kind of thinking about that, I want to connect it back up with what you said earlier when you said sort of near the beginning of this podcast episode that the name Xinjiang means new frontier. Right. And I didn't know that that was completely news to me. But that strikes me as also one way of connecting up some of these what are essentially colonial projects that are also at the same time Islamophobic projects. Because I'm thinking that also makes me think of the way that, you know, the so called State of Israel tells itself a story where Palestinians are in that story said to be new to the land, to have come late to the land. So Israel's trying to make the case that it has a more ancient claim than Palestinians do. And, and I'm thinking about the way that, that, that historical narrative, you know, has also played a role for the Chinese government in their oppression of the Uyghurs. They've made an argument that they are, they have an ancient claim to that land and Uyghurs, because they're Muslim, can only come later. So I think there are all these kind of big narratives of history that are playing a role here. But I wanted to ask you a little bit more about this thread of resistance. We're always very interested on radio reorient in the question of resistance and especially the kind of omatic resistance that you're describing, which is about a kind of Muslim decolonial solidarity. What are the differences between the way that the world Uyghur Congress resists or works towards resistance of the occupation of East Turkestan and the way that other types of justice organizations Particularly of colonized populations, have often done that work. And here I guess I'm really asking about this notion of nonviolent resistance that I know is so important to the World Uyghur Congress. What does that involve? What kinds of, of solidarity, building of action, how does that nonviolent resistance work?
- [35:42]
Zumratay Arkin
Absolutely, I think for us and maybe for some other allies, they also promote nonviolence. I'm thinking specifically about Tibetans, they're not Muslims, but they do promote nonviolence as well. And for us we believe that because in international law self determination is guaranteed and is a fundamental right, we believe that we can advocate for it in a democratic and peaceful, non violent way. And of course we are aware that some other movements or even within the movement there are people or organizations that are in favor of armed resistance. But however, as a representative body, we see it as a necessary step, nonviolence as a necessary step to determine, to get where we want to be. And that goes through international support, international advocacy, through the recognition of genocide, through the recognition of the colonial nature of the region and the land. And I think really just building solidarity with different movements, with different people, different organizations. And one key example is for example, where the World Congress is part of the unpo, which is the unrepresented nations and people's organizations. And we were actually one of the co founding members of this organization that has over 40 members that are all striving for the same goal of self determination with, you know, through non violence action. And we, we have done quite a lot in, in terms of, of advocating for that. And we're currently also working on this specific project with international lawyers and experts on basically using international law to make an argument that the land which Weavers are on have inhabited for thousands of years. East Turkestan is a colonized land. So this is an ongoing project. So I believe that these are examples of how we can promote nonviolence to advocate for self determination. We are also aware of how China has become over the years a threat for its neighbors, neighboring countries, especially at the borders where for example, it has had disputes with India, Pakistan and many others. And making sure that the international community is aware of how big of a threat it can become, especially when you incorporate sophisticated technology and surveillance, this can become a very dangerous actor. So by pointing out these facts and also advocating for collaborative approaches through networks and coalitions, this is kind of, I believe, great examples of nonviolent approaches.
- [39:05]
Claudia Radovan
So just to draw a bit further on what you said about the fundamental principle of nonviolence, this really Interests me in a different way, a slightly ironic way. So the Chinese government has added the World Uyghur Congress to their list of terrorist organizations. And globally there are concerns about the ways governments abuse that designation terrorist in order to hinder political efforts and specifically marginalized groups, especially Muslims. What impact has this had on the World Uyghur Congress and their work?
- [39:46]
Zumratay Arkin
Yeah, you're right. A lot of governments have, you know, used this narrative to their advantage. And I think, I mean pre 9 11, again, we're going back to that time where I mean, Uyghurs, including Uyghur organizations and activists, were not really accused of being linked to terrorism or accused of being terrorists, mainly just separatists advocating for independent state. But then after post 9 11, the narrative changed very quickly where the Chinese government has, you know, really used that as a great pretext to then label Uyghurs, especially Uyghur organizations and activists in exile as terrorists. And of course, I mean, the world of Congress was founded in 2004 and when it was newly established people, you know, the international community didn't really know the organization, the entity. What we were doing we're advocating for. So of course when you have that label, people are hesitant to cooperate with you, to work with you. So it has actually impacted a lot in the beginning by blocking roads and making sure that we were a reliable entity and a non violent entity. But of course over the years through our work, we've been recognized as a nonviolent and legitimate democratic body and the institution advocating for Uyghur rights. And so that narrative that the Chinese government tried to advance failed. However, they also used other tactics. For example, it has misused different international organizations, including Interpol, by issuing interval red notices against dissidents and activists who were in the movement. And that actually led to detention at borders, you know, deportation, and so many other like, similar challenges. But even though this narrative is not currently bought by international actors or the community, the Chinese government is always trying to find new ways to, I suppose, break any movement that is against China. So in our case, to break the Uyghur movement via different tactics. What has been very prominent in the recent years is transnational repression and how it affects Uyghurs in the diaspora or Uyghur organizations is through intimidation tactics, harassment, family hostage practices, slanders, misinformation, disinformation about Uyghurs, Uyghur organizations, leaders, activists, and especially in recent, you know, in the recent past few years, that has really escalated. And Uyghur Activists especially and organizations leading Uyghur organizations have been targeted by the Chinese government. We all have had slander campaigns against, you know, in our names, harassment, intimidation. And they're really trying to discredit actors who are within the Uyghur movement by using disinformation, misinformation, slanders. And I mean, it has done so with so many other movements too, to weaken any movement. And it's quite scary actually, because it has a lot of. You have to pay a huge price to be within this movement, you know. And I think it poses a real problem and real risk to the movement. And that's why we really need international support and solidarity as well.
- [43:54]
Chella Ward
It's so amazing and we hear it really often on radio reorient how frequently that kind of 9 11, you know, the figure of the cartoon terrorist of 911 gets weaponized, you know, around the world in so many different contexts as a way of criminalizing, controlling, halting, you know, any kind of expression of Muslim political agency. That seems to be a story that is just constantly played on repeat. I'm looking at the time and I'm thinking that we will very soon need to wrap up. Thank you ever so much for what's been for us an extraordinarily illuminating educational conversation. I wonder whether we could close then with just a final question and I'll have to ask you to give us a kind of one sentence answer. What do you think that people can do around the world if they want to be in solidarity with Uyghur Muslims? What, what kinds of action would you advise them to take if they want to be in solidarity with, with Uyghur Muslims?
- [44:55]
Zumratay Arkin
Actually it can be as simple as just listening to a person share their experiences and, you know, story of the resistance of survival, of how they've been dealing with this trauma and their family story. But it can also be by educating yourself about the issue. I mean, there's so much out there, there's so much material and one of the very popular narratives that we hear often is that all of this is a Western propaganda, is a, you know, it was fabricated by the West. Let me assure you that it's, unfortunately it was not fabricated by the west that people, real people are very much, you know, concerned here and our lives are, are at risk. And we, we are here to testify about this. And a lot of the, the evidence that is out there is, you know, it's not even about Western media, you know, coverage. It's about leaked Chinese documents that have confirmed that these policies are being implemented and that the repression is continuing. There are satellite imagery which is open source information. There are witness testimonies of survivors who actually went to these camps and survived this and now are sharing their stories. And there are people like me who have, you know, over 30 relatives in camps or have disappeared over the years just because of their ethnic and religious identity and people like, like me who have no contact with relatives. So I think really listening and, and researching on the issue. But it's also, you know, by not being complicit in the whole picture as well of genocide and atrocity crimes. And why I say that is because now companies are also being involved in this through forced labor schemes whether they know it or not, directly or indirectly in the global supply chain. Labor force labor is becoming a big issue across various industries and especially in the cotton and garment textile industry. It's very, very present. 25% of the world's cotton is linked to Uyover 4 slavery. So this is quite huge. And consumer choices, consumer behavior can have an impact as well. You can choose as a consumer not to support a company that is exploiting Uyghurs. So companies like naic, Adidas, Google Boss and so many others. So this is another way you can choose to write to your legislators in your country. You can write to them so that they can raise this issue in parliament, so that that can build pressure within the country and put pressure on the government to do something about it. You can host events, you can host, you know, podcasts like this to, to try to amplify Uyghur voices, support Uyghurs via, you know, different ways, whether it's supporting campaigns, supporting organizations that are doing the work, supporting businesses, ueater businesses, restaurants, there are many great restaurants in, in London. So those are all ways that you can, you can do something about it. And yeah, at the end of the day, just remembering that Uyghurs are also humans and that they also deserve to be protected. And so you can lend a voice to them because they currently are silenced.
- [48:53]
Chella Ward
Thank you so much Sumatra, for giving us there such practical steps actually that, you know, everyone could engage with one of those things, several of those things that you've laid out. We have approached the end of our time so we will have to finish there. Although I feel like we could carry on talking to you about this for many, many hours. I want to say thank you ever so much. We hope, as I've said, that this will be a podcast episode that inspires listeners to all those things you've just mentioned. Right. To education, to more responsible consumption, to solidarity, to all of those various things. So thank you very, very much to you, Samarthay, and also to all of our listeners and we hope inshallah, you will join us again on another episode of Radio Reorient.
- [49:39]
Zumratay Arkin
Thank you for having me.
- [49:40]
Chella Ward
You're listening to Radio Reorient, the Decolonial podcast in partnership with the New Books Network. This is radio exploring the Islamosphere and navigating the post Western. How should we study the things that we study after the critique of Orientalism? Now let's discuss what we've heard with.
- [49:57]
Claudia Radovan
Saeed Khan, Claudia, Radovan Hizamiyeh and me, Chella Ward. Well, suffice to say what a wonderful conversation with Zumra Tayy about everything that's going on in East Turkestan. A genocide that really in a lot of ways it sort of whilst it has peaks of attention in the media, I don't think it always receives so much attention and it becomes wrapped up in other discussions about how it's really just Western propaganda and how attention to it is. It's only sort of a criticism of China from a Western perspective. But I think Zombie did such an amazing job in this interview of demystifying that and sort of really honing in on what's going on. And I think what was particularly important given the current context of events all around the world is how this genocide in East Turkestan is part of kind of a broader global project of Islamophobia and attacks on Muslim communities, often linked to issues of colonialism, settler colonialism and how it's also very much linked to the weaponization of counter terror discourse. And you know, something that we've discussed in other episodes about how, you know, there is a making of the world that began after 911 and it became pretty much wholesale targeting of expressions of Muslimness. And I thought that, you know, this episode really drew attention to that in a number of really interesting ways for me.
- [51:39]
Chella Ward
What connects this genocide of the Uyghurs with let's say, for example, the genocide of the Palestinians. But we could also add Islamophobic persecution of Muslims in India by Hindutva supremacists, for example, as you know, another example. And you know, you've already, or we've already mentioned all of the other various comparanda Myanmar, for instance. I mean there are, there are all sorts of comparisons that we could bring in here. But what interests me and this I think Claudia picks up on what you said about the project of global Islamophobia although I'm not sure I would necessarily agree with you that it begins in 9 11. I, I think you're right that it's part of a sustained project of world making that includes the aftermath of 9 11. But for me, what links those genocides is the, the way that they're premise, premised on a particular way of telling the story of history. And I think that story of history asks the question, which I think is a question that's sort of at the heart of the reorient project really, which is kind of what is Muslimness? Or in other words, you know, how do we understand Muslimness? And sometimes that is framed as kind of, you know, the Muslim question by analogy, of course, with the Jewish question. But I think that if we think of the way that history is operating in these examples, what you've got is the claim being made on the part of state projects, ethno nationalist state projects that are not particularly old, right? Whether we mean the so called, you know, the, the state that, that's called Israel or China or India. I mean these are state projects that are attempting to become or are attempting to express themselves as ethno nationalist projects, right? So the idea of kind of one ethnic group to one ethnic group belongs one state. But what that involves, that very dangerous and murderous ethno nationalism, which, what that involves is the eradication of the Muslim. The reason it involves the eradication of the Muslim is because in this narrative of history, I'm going to use the word historiographical narrative to refer to the writing of history, right? Graphene is the ancient Greek verb to write. But within that historiographical narrative it involves presenting the Muslim as the one who comes late to the history of the world, right? And what they do, all three of these ethno nationalist projects, whether it's Hindutva India, Han China, Han supremacist China or Jewish supremacist Zionist Israel. What they do is they make the claim that one particular racialized group, right? That's to say Jewish Israelis, Han Chinese people, Hindu Indians, have a ancient claim to a territory that goes beyond any claim that Muslims could make to a territory because Muslims don't come to the world until 610 CE, right? So what that does is, defines the Muslim as someone who comes late to the history of the world and by coming late to the history of the world is kind of set up for the eradication, you know, that, that, that, that, that is what we see in, in these projects of Islamophobic genocide. So I absolutely see the genocide of the Uyghurs as continuous with the historiographic project of the genocide, the Palestinians and and of Hindutva supremacist persecution of Muslims in India and a number of other projects of global Islamophobia. But the reason I see them that way is because I understand them to be premised on a particular way of telling that story of history. And I think you're right, Claudia, that we perhaps don't talk about the genocide of the Uyghurs as much as we should. It seems that, you know, it's even when you go to the pro Palestine marches, you don't even see Uyghur flags there particularly often. And that's kind of interesting. There's a kind of information gap. So I was especially glad that we were able to have this conversation for that reason.
- [55:33]
Saeed Khan
I mean, I find Chella, this point that, that people make regarding that their chronological presence somehow gives them greater legitimacy, bewildering, particularly when it comes to the modern Western, which prides itself on looking at progress and those who have come later or technologies that have come later as being better. The updated version is always better than its predecessor. You know, no one talks about VCRs anymore. No one talks about reel to reel anymore. No one even talks about a landline phone anymore. So in that sense, I think that Muslims do have and can make the claim that coming in later actually is perhaps better. But I wonder about another phenomenon that happens that East Turkestan is demonstrating for us, and that is the efforts that are made by some in the name of appearing to be humanitarian, whether they are invoking East Turkestan and other areas of great conflict, some of which they have their own complicity, Syria, for example, these days, the Sudan, as being deflections from either what they are doing or what others are doing. I recall that in 2022, when then President Biden all of a sudden mentioned the Uyghur, it seemed as though he was actually going to champion what was happening with China. But of course, it had nothing to do with the Uyghurs. He was just trying to show China for being worse on human rights than the United States. And so this, these kinds of interventions, I think, still need to be taken with a grain of salt when people do stand up and are claiming alliance on issues that involve Muslims that are under siege and under persecution.
- [57:33]
Claudia Radovan
I think as a topic, and I think I agree with you, Saeed, we see a lot more of this, or certainly I see a great deal of it on social media lately when it comes to discussing the Sudan or discussing the Congo. And a lot of the kind of impulse responses to that are, you know, what's happening in Palestine is worse or, you know, that kind of genocide Olympics almost is one of the ways that I've heard it referred to. And I think the importance here is to identify those kind of the synergies, the resemblances between all of these actions and looking at the kind of responses to it as well. I don't mean the individual responses, but the international responses and how there's all these acts of deflection. But when it's convenient, looking at other examples and so on. And we've seen this in any range of cases. But I think suffice to say the events in East Turkestan are certainly an important it's an important set of events to focus on, not just politically, but for how it how it continues that targeting of Muslim communities with the kind of defense that it's for the security of others.
- [58:56]
Amina Isad Das
It's a really interesting point, actually, Claudia. I was thinking about Hilary Akin's work where she talks about progressive only on Palestine type issues. And I think that actually brings us to this notion of we need to avoid the distraction deflection techniques and avoid the hierarchicalization of atrocities. And I think in that sense, as Chella quite rightly points out, we're very lucky to have had this conversation with Zumrutay and to learn more about the issue and especially to learn more about what we can do in response.
- [59:32]
Zumratay Arkin
But I mean, I think we could.
- [59:32]
Amina Isad Das
Go on talking about this for quite some time. I think we're going to have to wrap up here. So thank you once again to our guest, Zumratay Arkin, and also to my co hosts, Claudia Radovan, Chella Ward and Saeed Khan. Hope you'll join us again for the next episode of Radio Reorient.
- [59:57]
Claudia Radovan
Sam Sa.