New Books Network – Episode 13.5 with Professor John Holmwood

Air date: November 14, 2025
Podcast Series: Radio Reorient, Critical Muslim Studies Project
Episode Theme: A critical exploration of the UK’s Prevent Policy, its roots, application, contradictions, and the complex political and social consequences, especially within education.

Episode Overview

This episode sees Professor John Holmwood (University of Nottingham) in conversation with hosts Chella Ward, Claudia Radburn, Amina Essat Das, and Saeed Khan. The panel explores the UK’s contentious Prevent policy—part of the government’s Counter-Terror Strategy (CONTEST)—analyzing origins, ideological underpinnings, real-life impacts (especially on Muslim communities and in education), and the policy’s current and future political context.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. What Is PREVENT?

[03:18]

• John Holmwood summarizes Prevent as a "pre-crime process" designed to stop radicalization before any offence is committed. It includes identifying individuals at risk and supporting "community cohesion."
• He notes the “uneasy relationship” between pre-emptive crime prevention and broader social integration efforts, dating from 2005 onward.

2. Policy Origins and Global Influence

[04:46 – 08:36]

• Saeed and Holmwood trace Prevent to the post-7/7 London bombings context, observing close collaboration with US intelligence (post-9/11 template).
• Holmwood argues Prevent built on the false premise that minority (especially Muslim) communities are prone to extremism, targeting them under a guise of national security.
• “It depends upon a minoritized community being the target of it … it is associated with widespread international cooperation around the threats of international terrorism associated with neoconservative arguments about the clash of civilizations.” (Holmwood, [07:01])
• International echoes: Prevent’s rationale and language have spread to Russia, China, etc., often used to stifle dissent (e.g., in solidarity protests over Palestine).

3. Liberal Democracy, Identity, and the ‘Other’

[09:34 – 12:33]

• Policies like Prevent and the US Patriot Act contribute to what Saeed calls “the decline of Western liberal democratic values,” blurring the line with more authoritarian states.
• Holmwood draws historical parallels: suspicion toward Muslims echoes past tropes of Jewish "dual loyalty."
• The concept of "Britishness" and "fundamental British values" is critiqued as a means of exclusion, especially when Muslim communities conform most closely to these stated values.

Notable Quote:

“If you were to look at those values, then what you notice is that British Muslims show the highest degree of conformity with those values. … It sometimes shocks people … that this is not a particularly radical community.”
— John Holmwood [13:24]

4. Prevent in Schools: Marginalization and Contradictions

[16:10 – 25:52]

• Hosts and Holmwood discuss the 2011 statutory embedding of Prevent in schools, controversies over cases such as the “cucumber/kookabomb” incident, and the Trojan Horse Affair.
• Holmwood points out the paradox that “the place where the prevent duty has its deepest penetration is within the education system—from nursery through to university. And that's what I find is really quite chilling.” ([23:44])
• He critiques both conservative and liberal approaches to integration, noting ignorance of the legal requirement for collective worship in all English schools, and hypocrisy in the treatment of Muslim versus “secular” (but not legally secular) schools.

Trojan Horse & Michaela School Cases

• Holmwood explains how schools in Birmingham faced media attacks for complying with legal religious education requirements the way non-Muslim-majority schools ignore.
• He suggests the “corrupted media class” failed to research the legal context fueling Islamophobic narratives.

5. Policy Shifts and Political Expediency

[33:32 – 40:06]

• Politicians expanded Prevent in 2015 to cover “nonviolent extremism”—moving ever further from direct terrorism threats.
• Holmwood: “What 2015 did was extend prevent by saying what Prevent should address was non-violent extremism. … Nonviolent extremism is within the law.”

Notable Quote:

“Because you've got a language of extremism, you can start to say, well what we need is to have measures about other kinds of extremism. … But what you notice is terrorism has disappeared.”
— John Holmwood [38:56]

6. The Future: Prospects for Reform or Repeal

[41:34 – 48:04]

• Holmwood proposes a roadmap:
  • Remove PREVENT from schools and healthcare (where it destroys trust).
  • Focus on targeted, evidence-based monitoring for those actually convicted, not widespread surveillance.
  • Aligns school policy with lowered voting age, encouraging active, self-critical citizenship rather than suspicion or surveillance.
• “Proper citizenship education I think would have to completely dismantle the idea of fundamental British values.” ([47:30])

7. Power of Language and Resistance

[52:46 – 57:40]

• Hosts reflect on how terms like “terrorism,” “extremism,” and “Islamism” have been hollowed of real meaning—used to justify overreaching, Islamophobic policies.
• Examples include absurd referrals of very young children, and crackdowns on political protest, conflating dissent with violence.

Notable Quote:

“In order to accept that what this set of policies under the contest strategy … does is counter violent extremism, you would have to accept that 5% of violent extremists are children under the age of 10 years old. … It starts to erode the relationship between what's said about these policies and what we can plausibly believe is reality.”
— Chella Ward [54:30]

8. Transatlantic & International Parallels

[57:40 – 61:03]

• Both UK and US governments use these frameworks to securitize not only Muslim populations but any dissenting or minority group.
• Saeed draws parallels to US “see something, say something” campaigns—a tactic that deputizes the public and breeds suspicion.

Memorable Moments & Notable Quotes

• On Identity:
  “[Muslim] community is actually the most normal community in Britain. … But it is made the target of suspicion through the identification of the values being British values, which suggests they have to be inculcated in this group …”
  — Holmwood [13:45]

• On Policy Impact:
  “School isn't a silo and school is a place where these debates can take place. So it's deeply paradoxical that the place where the prevent duty has its most, its deepest penetration is within the education system...”
  — Holmwood [23:32]

• On Hope:
  "Who is the person that you think is the most positive figure in that case, it's the girl who brought the case, not the head teacher... there is something incredibly positive to look forward to, and that is a population of engaged and empowered young people and to recognize that PREVENT is an obstacle to that."
  — Holmwood [48:25]

• Final Reflection:
  "We don't seem to see any particular change from that. We often see certain aspects acknowledged, but never sort of a meaningful change. And obviously, you know, this has a particular impact on education, especially as Homewood mentioned..."
  — Claudia Radburn [50:16]

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [03:18] – Holmwood explains PREVENT origins and its two main arms
• [07:01] – International analogues and PREVENT as a tool for authoritarianism
• [13:24] – Muslim conformity with “British values” and the identity paradox
• [16:10] – Fundamental British values, Shawcross Review and focus on “the far right”
• [23:44] – The paradox of PREVENT’s deep reach into education
• [33:32] – Policy trajectory, Trojan Horse myth, and expansion to “nonviolent extremism”
• [38:56] – Extension to “hateful extremism” and fading focus on actual terrorism
• [41:34] – Prospects for removing Prevent from public services
• [47:30] – Policy recommendations linked to voting age and citizenship
• [54:30] – Language hollowed out: “violent extremists” as children
• [57:40] – US parallels and dangers of deputizing the public
• [61:03] – Admissions that the core of PREVENT is rooted in suspicion of Muslims

Conclusion

This episode is a deep, critical engagement with both the ideological premises and practical consequences of PREVENT, shining a spotlight on the discriminatory effects—especially for British Muslims—along with the policy’s broader implications for citizenship, education, and democracy. Holmwood and hosts call for refocusing policy on real dangers and recommend substantial reforms, especially ending the application of PREVENT in schools and healthcare for the protection of trust, civil liberties, and authentic democratic participation.

For listeners:
If you want a nuanced, evidence-rich critique of PREVENT—with attention to British political history, schools policy, and global resonances—this episode delivers both substance and a roadmap for more just and effective approaches to countering violence and fostering social peace.