Dan (3:00)

I love how much of a movie this is. I mean, you know what I mean? Like this movie drips with movie. If that without trying to sound so cute, like you get that opening shot of like the studio. I love how the screenplay begins where you see the script, the actual script and it says final shooting script. So. And all the scenes are about like they do things that could only happen in movies. So it's like an instruction manual to Martians on what we do on Earth. It's like we make these things called movies and here are the people in them and here's how we think about them and here's how they start to think about them.

Mike (3:30)

The COVID of the manual says the emotional manipulation of other humans.

Dan (3:35)

I was reminded of another movie we did on 15 minute film fanatics, one of your picks. And I could not stop thinking about that movie as I watched this movie. And that movie is, and I'm going to say it and then I'll get your reaction and I'll have my take on it. That movie is Mike Mulholland Drive.

Mike (3:51)

Yes. Girl Comes to Hollywood. Uh, I mean it's, that's a series of cinematic manipulations. This one is like A Star Is Born compared to that is like, it's like stage magic versus close up magic. Like, you know, David O. Selznick is doing a trick in front of you. He's telling you I'm about to emotionally manipulate you. And still you have no idea, you know, where the third ball or the, or the coin went. It just, it just absolutely disappears. Whereas, you know, David lynch, of course, is into these enormous, enormous stage production. I mean, there's no jump scares in this movie.

Dan (4:26)

There's no guy behind a dumpster, that's for sure.

Mike (4:28)

But there's, there's terror and it's, it's, it's the terror that comes for all famous people and it's the thing that lurks in the background of their life suddenly springs upon somebody, right?

Dan (4:39)

And to push the David Lynch, William Wellman pairing a little further, what I love about this is, yes, like Mulholland Dryad. Like when she first gets to Hollywood, it looks like she's on the set of A Star Is Born.

Mike (4:49)

It's a parody of A Star Is Born.

Dan (4:50)

Right, right. So it. But what I think is also so fascinating is that you keep waiting in A Star Is Born to find the dark underbelly of the Dream Factory. And it's there. And we're gonna talk about that. Certainly it's there. Right. But it's not like a David lynch where you find that the actual Dream Factory is a dream. There's like this aha kind of thing. And so I think that, like, I think what's great about A Star Is Born is that it lets you see the dark side, if you will, of the whole industry. But yet the industry is still so captivating that if you love movies, you'd live there in a second. You would want to walk around and be with those people in A Star Is Born. But of course, if someone said, hey, would you like to be one of the characters in Mulholland Drive? You'd be like, no, no.

Mike (5:34)

The universe of A Star Is Born is realistic, but not jaded. Good things are possible in the world of A Star Is Born. David O. Selznick and William Wellman believe in movies later, like Tom Cruise will believe in movies, that there's a power of our collective imagination that singular imagination lacks or like communal imagination. Whereas I think in something like David lynch, communal imagination is summoning some demon the most.

Dan (6:04)

The biggest demon you get in A Star Is Born is when you get to see Auntie Anne. And I'm sure you recognize that was Auntie Anne playing her aunt. When you get to see. It's those moving picture shows and her father's there were like the stereoscope, like, you know, just looking at like one frame at a time is good enough for me. But when she's given her that lecture about picture shows, like you want to say to Auntie M. Oh, sweetie, wait till you see Mulholland Drive. You think these are bad. And that's why it's so funny. When she first gets to Hollywood and you get that first shot, it says, the beckoning El Dorado, metropolis of make believe in the California hills. And that, you know, California first of all has a luster like then that it doesn't have now. But certainly it's this idea that you see California and you see this dream factory, like, oh, my gosh. But you can make fun of that dream factory all you want, like you just said. But at the end. This movie isn't really like an indictment of the system.

Mike (6:54)

A star is born. Why is that funny? It's funny because, of course, a star is not born. A star is created. And so there's the scene in the, you know, in the middle of the beginning of the movie where they manufacture Vicky Lester, right? And he said, come in here, come in here, say Vicky Lester. And they all have to say the name so that he can hear how it sounds, right? So stars are not born, but they are possible. So that, you know, the crowd is very jaded. I mean, the idea behind Vicky Lester is that they've been throwing these beautiful, you know, exotic women on the screen, and now they're gonna use, you know, quote unquote, a real American woman. And Vicki Lester is that woman. So everybody comes out of her first picture, you know, An Enchanted Hour, and says, oh, my God, she was fantastic. Don't you think I'm a Vicki Lester type? Right? There's something about the introduction of her to the communal imagination that lifts people up and makes them see themselves on screen or in these imaginings. So a star is not born, it's created. But stars are possible.

Dan (7:54)

And that is, of course, those magazines are what Esther Blodgett sits reading all the time. And that's, of course, what brings her to Hollywood. So welcome back. In Part two, we always talk about a moment or a line that we really enjoyed. Mike, what's yours?

Mike (8:10)

So mine is when they're watching the boxing, that's the famous, quote, unquote proposal. Because of course, I mean that, okay, it's perfect form, content fit, right? Like you think that Vicky is being set up to take the fall, right? That, that, that he must be jabbing. You know, he's. He's fainting and playing with her by proposing this life to her where, where he'll. He'll stop drinking and everything will be fine and he'll save some money and he'll invest and he'll do whatever it takes to be the kind of responsible husband, right? That's the new role that he's going to take on. And I think you're. You're intended to think that it's Vicky who's being set up to take the knockout punch. Or maybe he's in love with her and he's set up to take the knockout punch. But really, it's us. I mean, if you watch to the end of this movie and then you rewatch that boxing scene as I did before we started recording, there's something, as I said, before manipulative about this movie, but at the same time, you're forewarned. And so the movie seems to be saying that the blow that comes as part of watching this movie would be exactly like a boxer being indignant that they had been punched in the face or knocked out. This is the nature of the enterprise. And it's hard to. It's hard to feel guilty. Like, it's not emotional manipulation in the way that, like, Saw or some awful movie is, but. But it is. It's brutal and difficult to watch. Right? Like, just like boxing. There are some people who even you know it's a wonderful sport. They just can't do it. And if you said to me, like, I love old movies, but I cannot watch A Star Is Born, I couldn't blame you because I think that the end of this movie is absolutely destroying.

Dan (10:03)

What you said about boxing is funny because you can't be a boxer and go into the ring and complain that the other guy took a swing at you. It's something everybody knows. And I think that Hollywood is interesting because in air quotes, everybody knows about what that place is like. But if someone dangled a check in front of you or me today and said, listen, you can go out there, you could be an extra in something. You don't have to worry about any financial stuff for the rest of your life. You can just work on movie sets, I think we'd be like, I don't know. I don't know. You want to do it? And that's what's so great about this movie, is that we've been told since we were kids. And you just learned this, like. Like, fame does bad things to people. Money does bad things to people. Renown does bad things to people. It makes you not yourself. It does all these things. And we're like, yeah, yeah, yeah. But you know what? I think I can handle it. Everybody thinks they can handle it. And that's why the story of, like, Elvis is so compelling in Sinatra. So when she goes in there and this isn't my moment, but you reminded me of when she goes to see, she goes to the studio. Because, of course, in this movie, the way you work for a movie is you just show up on the first day.

Mike (11:01)

Excuse me, I'd like a job, please.

Dan (11:02)

And the woman shows her all the women at the switchboard, and she's like, no, no, that's not the casting director. You can't do it. And there's that side about the math, and it says, here's how many jobs we have. Here's how many people apply. And that woman says to her, we had a hundred thousand. It's one in 100,000 to get a spot. And she says, but what if I'm that one in 100,000? So everybody kind of thinks that. So everybody knows the rules, but thinks the rules don't really apply to them. Frederick March, it's funny that you brought him up is that he thinks he knows what the rules are. Like, I'm a big star. I can do whatever I want. I can tell the bartender, fill up that glass with scotch as much as you want. I can show link to my movies. We'll bring him back. But then he finds out that there are phases to this. He thinks it's permanent. Right. But Shakespeare's looked at him going, no, there's seven Ages of Man speech and as yous Like It. And your age is going to change as this movie goes on or as your life goes on.

Mike (11:53)

Yeah, and the thing I like about that poster is that the poster doesn't say, are you good at math? It says, good at figures, question mark. But of course, you could be that 1 in 100,000 if your figure is good. Okay, so what's yours?

Dan (12:07)

So my moment is going back to what I said before about how this just drips with movie. And all the things we love about movies is that it's just a strange thing. It's that when early on in the movie, her grandmother takes her to the train station. Remember, it's like it's pre dawn and they have to get there, and they're talking about what she's going to do. And the train's arrival is simulated by shadows being put across their face. And then all of a sudden, they cut to, like, an actual live train, a real train, and they go back to them on the set. And what I love about that moment is that, you know, a blockhead today could watch that and say, well, obviously they're not in a train station right now. You know people that would say that? I see you laughing. Like, I know people that would say that too. Right. And of course, your answer would be yes. No kidding. They're not in a train station. Would putting them in an actual train station make you believe that they were really the people? We know they're not real. We know that the train station is not real, et cetera. But I think what's great about this movie is that the movie never tries to hide that under the cloak of quote, unquote, realism. Right? So when Celtic Made makes Gone with the Wind, and you're doing the burning of Atlanta. You ha. Like, the whole thing is you have to make that look, you have to make it look perfect. Right. I just recently watched the Leopard for the first time on your recommendation, episode forthcoming. And one of the things I love about the Leopard is it's got such a you are there feel to it, right? Like all these pains are taken to show you what the prince's palace is like and what the dance is like and what their clothes are like. Well, here, like that's all done. But you're never not conscious of the fact that you're watching a movie and yet the performances are so good and there's something so deep about the structure of the story that it's so emotional and that I love how the movie almost, it almost plays with you like you're a kitten. And the movie is a ball of yarn. And it says, I'm going to show you these things aren't real. And you're going to know they're not real. And I don't really care because you're still going to get sucked in. And that, of course, is what sucks in Esther Blodgett and turns her into Vicky Lester.

Mike (14:09)

What the movie really exposes in a way is that we go around like sensible people and we say, well, I can tell what's what. And it's like, you can tell what's what, but do you care what's what? And I think that the movie exposes our tolerance or acceptance of the artificial is real.

Dan (14:25)

And we accept plenty. Like, if we, we will accept plenty of artificiality. And, and not only will we accept it, we'll enjoy it. Like, when the shadow came across them at the train, my, my gut reaction wasn't, there's no train there. My gut reaction was, that's really good. Like, that's really clever. But it doesn't take away from your investment as a human being in what these people are doing.

Mike (14:44)

No, I think the last 20 minutes of this are Aeschylus.

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Dan (15:36)

So welcome back. In Part three, we always talk about the title or the ending or some of the big ideas. So Mike, you can go first, but I want to kind of. I imagine you're. Of course you're going to talk about I am Mrs. Norman Maine. But you've said before that this movie is terrifying. You've said that if you have a particularly maybe vulnerable teenager and you want to get them into old movies, you might not want to show them this one. So you've kind of talked about this movie like it's like a sorcerer or something. And you just mentioned Escalist. So talk about the ending. What do you make of it?

Mike (16:02)

It's emotionally devastating. It's like, I don't take it to be like it's the full destruction of a person offset by the, by the rising or completion of another person. And I think that those two things are so unbelievably stark and striking. I mean, you don't think that this is a difficult movie to watch at the end?

Dan (16:28)

I mean, yeah, I think it's exhilarating, but so is, you know, Othello is difficult to watch too.

Mike (16:33)

Well, but I mean that they're difficult to watch in the same way. I mean, we all know that a guy, you know, pretending to be the more on stage is not a More. We all, we all understand that he did not kill Desdemona. But like even, but even Samuel Johnson said it was difficult to read.

Dan (16:47)

It is not to be endured. He said it is not to be endured.

Mike (16:50)

So and so that's what I feel about the end, the end of this movie. Is, is it artificial? Yes, of course it's artificial. You've been set up for it the whole time. I mean you could very easily, you could imagine like a postmodern version of this movie might have the. That scene first and do the rest of this in flashback. Like a comet type structure with its tail going out. But that wouldn't be as devastating because you, you wouldn't experience the buildup of dread followed by the release. I mean, some of the things that we're actually talking about in terms of artificially, Artificiality and reality have been around since the invention of Greek drama. And that's what I mean. This, this works along exactly the same lines in which, you know, no people, no stars were harmed in the making of this motion picture. But at the Same time. They definitely were. Because it's representative of an actual buried pain. Right. These are like. These are concentrations of different people's realities. Yeah. I think that this works along the same lines. It has purgation the same way as Greek drama.

Dan (17:57)

Funny you say that, because I. So that you didn't have to. Mike. I watched all four versions of A Star Is Born. Much to come on this on pages and frames. But in the 1954 version, it's James Mason, he does walk out to the beach. 2018, Bradley Cooper, he kills himself. Doesn't do it at the beach, but he kills himself as well. But in 1974, when Kris Kristofferson and Barbra Streisand made the movie, at the end of the movie, Kris, Rich Sofferson doesn't overhear anything because, you know, Frederic March overhears, and he doesn't overhear anything. He doesn't have a fight with her. He just kind of gets in his Ferrari and drives at 160 miles an hour as fast as he can. And then he just kind of like drives away into the distance.

Mike (18:37)

Like.

Dan (18:38)

Like the way you see, like the Roadrunner go away behind the mesa and then later you see the car wreck. And so it's never said whether or not he. He killed himself, whether his quote, unquote lifestyle did it. And of course it's. It's ridiculous. It doesn't work at all because. Because Norman Maine has to kill himself intentionally. Intent, of course. Yeah. He doesn't go for a swim, right? And there's that great moment where he says, I'm going to go out. And she says, oh, do you want me to come? She says, do you want me to come along? And there's that great half second where you see Frederic March make that face like, no, that's okay. That's okay. Because obviously he can't have her there. What I love about the end of this movie is something that's a more cynical moment, is that after he dies, we get a shot. It's a 10 second scene of Libby, the press agent, reading the newspaper. Now, of course, everyone thinks it's an accident. And he's sitting there talking to the bartender. And he says to the bartender, now we've already established. Libby says, I don't like you. I never liked you. I took care of you because it was my job. He humiliates him at the racetrack when Frederick March is drinking his ginger ale. Then, of course, he goes back, he falls off the wagon again. But the thing that Libby says is it's the first drink of water he had in 20 years, and then he had to get it by accident. And the bartender is, of course, cleaning his glass. He kind of chuckles. And then he says, how do you wire congratulations to the Pacific Ocean? And the bartender lets out this big guffaw. And that, I think is. That's a great commentary on, on. On the death of Norman Maine because we see it, of course, because we know more than Libby does. But that's part of the, that's part of the way that celebrity works, is that you might die and become a hero to somebody, but you might also become like a joke to somebody else. And he becomes a punchline. And that's like the one thing that, that every actor, every creature of vanity can't stand to be.

Mike (20:24)

But I also think that the commentary on A Star Is Born is not about the system, it's about the viewer. If you want to know who the real monster is, you know, the monster is people who enjoy at a distance the rise and fall of other. Of other human beings and are cynical and laugh at their pain.

Dan (20:45)

Right. But of course, we all still enjoy the rise and fall of human beings. They make for great drama. Because, like, as you said, for like, whereas her star's going up and his is going down, there's that section in the middle. And that's the movie.

Mike (20:55)

That's the movie. But the ending of this movie is not to be endured. It would be difficult to guffaw about it. But then, of course, if something happened to some star, you'd be rolling your eyes. And so I think that part of the point is the question of saying who would go to Hollywood to be offered up as a feast, you know, for the, you know, the unwashed millions.

Dan (21:18)

Right.

Mike (21:18)

But then part of the movie also points the mirror back at the unwashed millions and said. And says, who would feast on this? But I. One thing I have to say about Frederick March is he was, of course, he was only really at the beginning of his career, I mean, or he was mid career, but he's one of the only people to win two Academy Awards and two Tonys in their lifetime. So he maintained, you know, there's this great tension about stage actors versus movie actors, and very few people can do both at the same time. And so for him to play such a charming and convincingly washed up person, of course, is not. That's not a reflection of reality. That's beautiful acting.

Dan (22:01)

Beautiful. It's beautiful. And I was reminded of another film we did on this show when we did the best Years of Our Lives. And remember how good he is in the scene in that movie when he has to give the speech and you don't know if he's drank too much or if he's gonna be. To pull it off. He plays Al. And so that's what's good about his drunkenness is that when I'm getting off a tangent here, but, you know, the way the drunkenness is sometimes portrayed is the person's loud and they. They start to get clumsy and. But. But the true. The true functioning alcoholic is somebody who. Who thinks they're pulling it off. And that's exactly how he acts here. He gets. He gets over the line when he embarrasses her at the Academy Awards. And that's when he hits her in the face accidentally. And then he has to go to the sanatorium where he has his pool. But certainly his. The trying to convince yourself and everybody else that you're fine. He does that. Frederick March does that so well.

Mike (22:49)

And this isn't some. This isn't some expose. I mean, part of the artificiality is how they're not pointing the camera at the actors and saying, okay, just, you know, be yourself. So we can show them what, quote, unquote, Hollywood is like. This is as stylized a performance as Iceman Cometh or anything like that.

Dan (23:05)

So I love what you said. This is not what Hollywood is like. Because what's interesting about the suicide, and I kept coming back to this as I watched all four versions, is that it would be easy, I think, for somebody to watch this too quickly, not think about it and say, oh, it's an indictment of the system. But as we've talked about, it's not that at all. Right. And you mentioned Willy Loman. Willy Loman kills himself for nothing, essentially. Biff is supposed to get the life insurance. He's gonna go make something. Billy Willie dies thinking that Biff is gonna have this future. But as we know from the funeral scene at the very end, none of them have changed. None of them have learned a damn thing because we know more than they do, right? But here, what's funny about his suicide is that he, Norman Maine, is much more concerned and plugged in to the system than she is. Because she says, I'll stop. I don't have to be Vicki Lester. I'm done. This is great. There's something more important than being Vicki Lester. But he thinks, no, that is really important. You have to keep going being Vicky Lester. So, I mean, he is as much enamored with the culture of celebrity as Naomi Watts is in the beginning of Mulholland Drive.

Mike (24:15)

And of course, you know who played Willy Loman in the original movie?

Dan (24:19)

Frederick March. Thanks for listening, everybody. We hope you've enjoyed our conversation about A Star Is Born. You can find us on Substack. Mike, where do you write on Substack?

Mike (24:28)

The Grumbler's Almanac, and I'm at pages and frames.

Dan (24:30)

Let us know what we should watch next. Thanks, everybody.

Mike (24:33)

We'll see you next time.