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Aaron Magid, "The Most American King: Abdullah of Jordan" (Universal Publishers, 2025)
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- [00:00]
Roberto Mazza
Hello everybody.
- [00:01]
Marshall Po
This is Marshall Po. I'm the founder and editor of the New Books Network. And if you're listening to this, you know that the NBN is the largest academic podcast network in the world. We reach a worldwide audience of 2 million people. You may have a podcast or you may be thinking about starting a podcast. As you probably know, there are challenges basically of two kinds. One is technical. There are things you have to know in order to get your podcast produced and distributed. And the second is, and this is the biggest problem, you need to get an audience. Building an audience in podcasting is the hardest thing to do today. With this in mind, we at the NBM have started a service called NBN Productions. What we do is help you create a podcast, produce your podcast, distribute your podcast, and we host your podcast. Most importantly, what we do is we distribute your podcast to the NBN audience. We've done this many times with many academic podcasts and we would like to help you. If you would be interested in talking to us about how we can help you with your podcast, please contact us. Just go to the front page of the New Books Network and you will see a link to NBN Productions. Click that, fill out the form and we can talk. Welcome to the New Books Network.
- [01:09]
Roberto Mazza
Hi, I'm Roberto Mazza and I'm the host of these episodes of the New Books Network. My guest today is Aaron Megid. Aaron is the author of the Most American King Amdal of Jordan. The book has been published by Universal Publishers in 2025. This book is the first comprehensive biography on Jordan's King Abdullah. Drawing on interviews with over 100 individuals, including Abdullah's classma, former Jordanian ministers and CIA directors, the most American King offers a thorough account of this key Arab leader. Aaron, a former Oman based journalist, charts Abdullah's path to power. From a Massachusetts prep school to a British military academy and eventually to the throne. This book examines how Abdullah has remained in power for over a quarter century. Surrounded by wars and refugee crisis. While leaders nearby were ousted during the 2011 Arab Spring protests, Abdallah survived the way with this content before we're going to discuss all of this. First things first. Aaron, welcome.
- [02:15]
Aaron Megid
Thank you very much for having me on the podcast.
- [02:18]
Roberto Mazza
First question that I ask everybody. So can you tell us something about yourself and also about the origins of your book?
- [02:25]
Aaron Megid
Sure. So I've been interested in Middle Eastern studies for many years now. I went to University of Michigan for undergrad, concentrated in Arabic and Political science. After graduate school I moved to Amman where I worked as a journalist Writing about the Syrian refugee crisis in Jordanian politics, mainly for Almonder, for about a year and a half. Very much enjoyed my time there, but wanted to move back to the United States to be closer to family. But I continued to writing about Jordan. And in 2020, 2021, when I started working on the book, I noticed that King Abdullah had been in power for over 20 years, but there had a single comprehensive biography written about him. So there was a gap in the literature. And I thought a biography specifically focused on King Abdullah, unlike much of the academic work that has been on King Hussein, would be appropriate. And it's not just in terms of academia, it's also in journalism. And to the Washington Post, the New York Times, the Wall Street Journal, not a single one of them have a full time correspondent in Amman. So I thought there'd be an interest in additional coverage about the Hashemite Kingdom.
- [03:25]
Roberto Mazza
And in fact, I wanted to ask you about it. So you've written what likely is the first comprehensive biography of King Abdullah II, who has ruled Jordan, as you said, for over 25 years. So can you walk us through how you approached researching the book? And I also noticed that you conducted over 100 interviews and obviously you spent time in Jordan. So what were the most valuable sources for understanding Abdullah? And were there any particular challenges in researching a sitting monarch? Because obviously we're talking about a living person.
- [04:01]
Aaron Megid
Sure, it's a great question. So in terms of how I approached the book, I really focused on interviews. So I. So King Abdullah spent a significant amount of time in the United States, so that made it easier to speak with individuals. He went to middle school with, high school, he trained with the United States military. So I spoke with US Military officials as well. So I was able to speak with a lot of US Individuals who spoke with him. Additionally, I also spoke with former Jordanian ministers, Jordanian journalists, activists, to get a wide spectrum of Jordanian officials to speak with. I also did do archival research, both in the United States and the United Kingdom, to get documents about King Abdullah from earlier in his life. Then finally, I also looked into WikiLeaks, which was quite helpful in terms of the State Department documents that were written about Jordan earlier in his tenure. Now, I would say the main challenge in writing about King Abdullah, he gave an interview in 2013 to the Atlantic magazine, and that was quite explosive. He spoke about the Jordanian Muslim Brotherhood tribes and he made a lot of controversial remarks. But after that interview, he became much more cautious in terms of his dealings with international media, especially on domestic sensitive issues. So, for example, he'll still talk about the war in Gaza, isis, Syrian refugees. But if you start asking them about the Prince Hamza sedition affair or the Muslim Brotherhood or the economy, then it's become difficult. So I reached out multiple times to the royal court asking for an interview, but unfortunately, he did not grant one.
- [05:40]
Roberto Mazza
Actually, I wanted to add a question here. Did you feel any sort of censorship in your research? Did you find it hard to find material or maybe, you know, people closing the doors when you were looking for documents? Again, printed material, recorded material.
- [05:58]
Aaron Megid
So in terms of archival research, I wasn't able to get anything from the Jordanian government just because they don't have open archives about King Abdullah, partially because he just became King in 1999, so it hasn't been that long, but also because the king is a very sensitive topic in the country. In terms of my interviews with officials in Jordan, in the beginning, I used to say, I'm writing a book about King Abdullah. And I found I had a lot less success when asking former Jordanian officials using that tagline, even if it's true. So then, as I continue my research, I told individuals I'm writing a book about Jordanian politics, which is also true. But then people were generally more open to discussing the topic. And then at the end of the interview, I'd ask more pointed questions about King Abdullah. But since if you criticize King Abdullah, that is still a punishable offense in the country and you could end up in jail, so individuals were more cautious when dealing with specific questions about him.
- [06:56]
Roberto Mazza
That's fascinating. And I figured there could have been some problems here and there. Now, the book's title calls Abdullah the Most American King, and that really comes through in your opening chapters. You already mentioned his childhood. So how did his childhood here in the United States, in a pep school in Massachusetts, being harassed as an Arab student training with the US Military shape the leader that he became. And also, what about that dramatic moment that you described in the book in 1999 when his father, Hussein essentially brought his brother Hasan out of a succession on his deathbed?
- [07:36]
Aaron Megid
Sure. So King Abdullah has a really remarkable personal connection with the United States. As you mentioned, he went to middle school and high school in Massachusetts. How? He was on the wrestling team. He would often go by the name Ab, not Abdullah, because he wanted to fit in with the other guys. When his father asked he do Arabic lessons, he actually would often hide in the closet because he wanted to have a more typical American experience. Afterwards, he trained with the US Military in Kentucky. He went to Georgetown University for graduate school, and in fact, sent his children to the prestigious College in Washington, D.C. because he so much enjoyed that experience. He went on his honeymoon in Hawaii. And in fact, when he became king in 1999, he actually spoke better English than Arabic because he spent so much time in the West. And even after he became king, he continued to own property in the Washington, D.C. area in California. So the personal relationship with the United States is really quite strong. And I think what that has led to is him maintaining a very strong political connections with the United States. He really sees the United States as a center of Jordanian foreign policy. And that's really in contrast to his father. His father was willing to have pretty significant disputes with the United States over regional issues. So one example would be the 1990, 1991 Gulf War, where King Hussein strongly opposed that and criticized the United States. And that led to a decrease in USA to Jordan. And Jordan, of course, has very significant financial issues. So that was pretty considerable. In 2003, when King Abdullah was in power and President Bush was about to launch the US Invasion of Iraq, Jordan worked together quietly with the United States. They allowed for overflight rights from Jordan into Iraq. U.S. troops being based in Jordan, Patriot missiles in Jordan helped with intelligence gathering missions. And that allowed Jordan's aid from the United States to increase. So because of King Abdullah's very strong personal connections, that's led to very strong, excellent political ties with the United States. And that's continued from 1999 until this very day.
- [09:38]
Roberto Mazza
I'm actually curious about something. To your knowledge, is the King still in touch with some former friends in the United States? Or you believe that these relations at some point broke down because of the role that he was offered by his father. So to become the King of Jordan?
- [09:54]
Aaron Megid
No. From what I gather, King Abdullah actually has maintained friendly ties with the individuals who went to middle school and high school. With especially high school, he had a very positive experience. In fact, on the Deerfield Academy alumni website, there are pictures of him with his former high school classmates well into his rule. I think he found that period to be very transformative. He very much enjoyed his time in high school, in fact, with his son. Not only did he send his son to Georgetown University like himself, but he created a similar school to Deerfield Academy in Jordan. It's called the King's Academy. It's also an elite prep school in order to allow his child to have that great experience that he had, but while also maintaining it in Jordan to ensure that his child's Arabic was better than his was. When he became King in 1999.
- [10:43]
Roberto Mazza
Let's move to politics. So Abdullah was the first Arab leader to meet President Obama, Trump, Biden, and again Trump. And as far as we know, Jordan receives about $1.5 billion annually in U.S. aid. Different kind of aid. Now, can you walk us through how Abdallah cultivated this Extraordinary, because this is almost unique relationship with Washington, obviously personal connection, but I believe, and you talk about it in the book, there's more to it. And given that he warned against the 2003 Iraq invasion, what does his relationship with the US tell us about the limits and advantages of being America's closest ally? Closest Arab ally, I should say.
- [11:30]
Aaron Megid
Sure. So King Abdel has found that and has made sure that Jordan would be useful for the United States across multiple presidencies, both Democrats and Republicans. So we talked about that before the 2003 war, although personally he was uncomfortable with the US invasion, at the same time he worked together to maintain very strong military intelligence ties with the United States. So then afterwards that would allow for the US Invasion of to be more successful. We Continue on. In 2011, 2012, Jordan received hundreds of thousands of Syrian refugees. And that was a priority of the Democratic administration, Barack Obama at the time, and they appreciated Jordan for playing that role. In 2014, Jordan joined with the anti ISIS coalition that President Barack Obama supported. And that was also appreciated. And then you also Talk about In the mid 2010s, the United States was pushing for Jordan to have the GAS accord with Israel. And King Abdullah did agree to that. And then More recently, in 2024 and 2025, under both President Biden and President Trump, Jordan worked together with the United States to shoot down the Iranian missiles that were fired across the Hashemite Kingdom's airspace at Israel. So Jordan has, under King Abdullah's leadership, has found time and time again ways for him to be useful to the United States, especially on a security and military level.
- [12:47]
Marshall Po
And.
- [12:47]
Aaron Megid
And that's very much appreciated. However, at the same time, there are certainly some Jordanian citizens who don't appreciate that, especially because the United States foreign policy in the Middle east is often very unpopular in the region. Certainly in the 2003 Iraq invasion, the ongoing Gaza war, many Jordanians have opposed U.S. foreign policy. So for some Jordanians, while they might not be comfortable to criticize King Abdullah in a public fashion in terms of media articles or in TV interviews, many of them are quietly unhappy with the King's approach. Because of the very close alliance with the United States and maintaining the 1994 peace treaty with Israel.
- [13:24]
Roberto Mazza
I think we're going to revisit this issue because obviously it's central also to your book. There is the image of the most American king, but also obviously internal descent to this position. Now you have and I found this part fascinating, you have fascinating details about Abdallah playing Super Mario Bros across to bond with Bashar Assad's family, but also his coining of the term the Shia Crescent to describe Iranian influence. So I wonder if you can talk about these episodes but also how did Abdullah navigate these incredibly complex regional relationships with Syria and Iran? Also bearing in mind obviously their relationship with Israel, especially as both situations deteriorated dramatically during his 25 years reign.
- [14:22]
Aaron Megid
Sure. So King Abdullah tried to place a priority in the beginning of his reign, especially with Syria, to maintain friendly relations with Damascus. So one example would be the video games that we mentioned. His family, which is quite funny to think about with President Bashar Al Assad's family. They actually had a lot of similarities both to spent considerable time in the United Kingdom. Both were not expected to be the leader. And it was only because of a change of events from Hafez Al Assad to King Hussein that allowed for King Abdullah and Bashar Al Assad to be in charge of their countries. So he placed a priority to maintain strong economic, cultural relations, political ones with Syria during the first decade. But I would say the relations hit a lower point in 2011 with the outbreak of the Syrian Civil war. King Abdullah was actually the first Arab leader to call on Assad to resign because he thought that he had caused too much bloodshed. And he actually said in an interview in 2013 that if given a similar situation to President Assad in Syria, if hundreds of thousands of his people were calling on him to resign, he would not take the Assad approach and and used bloody warfare against his own people. So that led to a significant decline in relations with Syria. Another example would be Jordan had a military operations center which was coordinated with the United States and Saudi Arabia 20122013 to fund and arm the Syrian opposition. And certainly that was not appreciated by Syrian President Bashar Al Assad. So the ties never returned to their very warm state that they started with. But King Abda tried working with Assad as the Syrian civil war had declined. 2020, 2021 there was humanitarian aid that Jordan provided in Syria after a very large earthquake. But when the Syrian revolution last year brought the downfall of Assad and that was very welcome for King Abdullah and Jordan especially because there were a lot of tensions with the former Syrian regime around weapons and drug smuggling into the country. So it's been a challenging balancing act that Jordan's had with Syria. I would say with Iran, it's been just much more negative. So King Abdullah did make one state visit to Tehran, and that was during the first five years of his reign. But then afterwards it just went downhill. So one example would be him calling, warning about the Shia Crescent, which the Iranians did not appreciate because of Iran's influence in Iraq, Syria and in Lebanon. There was a bombing at the Jordanian Embassy in Baghdad that killed eight individuals. And King Abdullah later blamed a Shia group with ties with the Iranian Revolutionary Guard Corps. So there was that incident. Certainly the Jordanians did not appreciate Iran firing missiles over their territory because it embarrassed King Abdullah, because he ended up shooting it down, because he was protecting his. He argued he was protecting his nation's sovereignty. But many Jordanians said that they were protecting Israel as Israel was killing many Palestinians in Gaza. So that was very controversial. So there's been a lot of tensions with Iran over the years. They maintain diplomatic relations, but it's not a warm engagement between the two countries. And King Abdullah hasn't visited Iran in well over two decades.
- [17:48]
Roberto Mazza
Abdullah proposed at some point what you call a 57 state solution. Well, essentially arguing that all Arab and Muslim countries should pressure Israel on Palestinian rights. Given that half of Jordan's population is of Palestinian descent and the kingdom signed a peace treaty with Israel in 1994. How does the King walk this tightrope? And what's the actual substance versus the rhetoric when it comes to his Palestinian and Palestine policy? Sure.
- [18:21]
Aaron Megid
So as you mentioned, it is a delicate balancing act for the King. And I would say we can use the example of the Gaza war. So on the one hand, he withdrew his ambassador from Tel Aviv in the beginning of the war, and Jordan's ambassador is still not present in Israel over two years since that war began. He also said the Israeli ambassador to Amman could not return until the war ended. The King Abdullah and Queen Rania have been very critical of Israel's military operations in Gaza. And King Abdullah actually recently called Israel's action genocide. They supported South Africa's case in the National Criminal Court. So there has been certainly tensions between the two countries over Gaza. But I would say at the same time, King Abdullah hasn't gone as far as many of his people would have wanted them to do on the issue. So one example would be the $15 billion gas deal that was signed in the mid-2010s between Israel and Jordan. Activists called for that deal to be annulled and King Abdullah has refused to do that. Similarly with the 1994 peace agreement, he has maintained that accord. We already discussed Jordan cooperating with Israel to shoot down the Iranian missiles and drones. That was very much appreciated by the Jewish state. And Axios even reported that Jordan served as a mediator between Israel and the new HTS regime in Syria because Jordan had strong ties with both parties. So on the one hand, Jordan has taken measures that have been aligned with its population in terms of criticizing Israel, in terms of even freezing a water for energy deal with the UAE in Israel. But on the other hand, they've maintained the security cooperation that is critical for the Israeli military and also for Israel's allies in Congress.
- [20:09]
Roberto Mazza
Well, I want to move back and forth. So in the introduction, you open with a dramatic 2015 moment when ISIS burned Jordanian pilot Muad Kasabi alive and Abdullah quoted Unforgiven to Congress, and you devote an entire chapter to Abdullah's campaign against terrorism, including the 2005Aman hotel bombings. So how central you think has counterterrorism been to Abdullah's rule? And how has Jordan's role in the anti ISIS coalition, which you mentioned earlier, shaped both his domestic standing and his relationship with Washington?
- [20:51]
Aaron Megid
Sure. So Jordan's fight against terrorism under King Abdullah, I would say is one of his greatest successes as leader. You look surrounding Jordan, whether that's ISIS in Syria, ISIS in Iraq, ISIS attacks in the Sinai, all across the region, there have been massive bombings, killing hundreds or even thousands of individuals by isis, Al Qaeda. And Jordan under King Abdullah has maintained an island of stability. They're having small attacks. You mentioned the Amman hotel bombing. That was already 20 years ago, but that killed fewer than 100 individuals. But King Abdullah and has really prioritized, based on a very successful intelligence services, that he has to ensure that Jordan is safe. So Jordan's focus in fighting terrorism under King Abdullah has been an important priority for him. And I would say it's also been one of the main reasons why he's able to maintain a very strong relationship with the United states. Thousands of U.S. troops are posted in Jordan under both Democratic and Republican administrations. And King Abdullah has ensured both in the anti ISIS campaign in the 2014, 2015, 2016 period, but also in the joint cooperation against Al Qaeda in Iraq in the decade before that. And even as we speak today, his cooperation with the United States on military intelligence matters has ensured that billions of dollars of US Aid has continued to flow to Oman.
- [22:18]
Roberto Mazza
Actually, as we just mentioned, the bombings, and you reminded me 20 years ago, almost by the day of the recordings of his podcast, I think it was November 8 or 9 or something like that. Personally, I remember because at that time I was living in East Jerusalem, and that really sent shockwave all around the region. Very much unexpected. I want to turn to domestic politics. So you document Abdullah's clash with the Muslim Brotherhood, easy economic privatization campaign, and also his response to Arab Spring protests. Now, what strikes me, and you talk about it in the book, is kind of the pattern of royal committees that really reminded me of British politics during the mandate in many ways. In this case, promising reforms in 2002, 2005, obviously 2011, and during the Arab Spring and later in 2021. Yet, and you kind of mentioned this earlier, parliament remains weak. Unemployment, latest statistics, again, as you mentioned in the books, it's around 21%. Is this cynical maneuvering, like promising reforms, or does Abdallah genuinely face constraints he can't overcome?
- [23:37]
Aaron Megid
It's an interesting question because in the interview he gave with the Atlantic magazine in 2013, King Abdullah argued, almost surprisingly, that he wanted to pursue more significant political reform, liberalization, democratization of the country. But the intelligence services and the old guard were actually holding him back, almost like King Abdullah is somewhat weak and the more powerful, unelected security bureaucrats are really running the country. So that was his argument in 2013. It was quite controversial, and he hasn't repeated that argument ever since. But that is one perspective on the events. I think, at the end of the day, especially now, King Abdullah's priority is maintaining the security, especially as he transitions rule to his son, Crown Prince Hussein. King Abdullah is actually near the age where King Hussein passed. So the idea of the transition of power is very much on his mind. And for him, democratization is just not nearly as high a priority as security and maintaining a very clear role for his son. So I'll give you one example with the Muslim Brotherhood. The Islamic Action Front, which is affiliated with the Muslim Brotherhood, actually won the most seats in last year's parliamentary elections in September. And some international observers were saying, wow, this is a sign that King Abdullah is actually interested in liberalizing the country and having a stronger role for parliament. But then when do we see, a few months later, King Abdullah and the Jordanian security forces decide to ban the Muslim Brotherhood. Senior seized the group's assets, closed the Muslim Brotherhood offices. And it showed that for him, listening to the will of the people, respecting democratic norms is really not what he's focused on. So there have been, as you noted, many royal committees. We go back to 2004, 2005 under Mohan Muasher in response to the Arab Spring in 2011, 2012 and then after the Prince Hamza sedition affair in 2021, 2022. But the end result remains that parliament is weak. The Economist ranks countries in a democratic and four different democratic ratings. And Jordan is placed in the lowest one as authoritarian. And King Abdullah and the security forces are the ones running the country, not parliament or those elected by the Jordanian people.
- [25:54]
Roberto Mazza
Let's go back to family issues, let's call them like that. So in 2021, Abdullah's brother, Prince Amzah allegedly launched a sedition plot. Essentially he wanted to dethrone his brother. Now this seems like the most direct threat to Abdullah's rule. What actually happened here? Can you tell us something more about it and what does it reveal about the stability or fragility of the Hashemite monarchy?
- [26:22]
Aaron Megid
So this was a very important moment in King Abdullah's reign because it was one of the most rare examples where you have Jordanian members of the royal family who oppose his rule. In general, the narrative of the Jordanian regime is we're all together trying to build stability and prosperity for the Jordanian people. But Prince Hamza, along with his mother, Queen Noor, who's also actually of American background, they were starting to issue more and more criticisms of the Jordanian government, assailing corruption. And according to the Jordanian authorities, he, along with Bassem Al Wadela, Basim Abdullah was a former royal court chief of Palestinian and American citizenship and background. They work together according to the Jordanian narrative to try to unseat King Abdullah. Of course, this is only the side of the Jordanian government. Basim Abdullah is in jail right now. Prince Hamza is still under house arrest. So we don't really have their perspectives. What is interesting about this case is after Bassam Abdullah was jailed, we had the Saudi foreign minister, according to the New York Times, fly to Amman to try to release him. And Jordan actually refused that request. And there was some speculation even from the Jordanian government that Prince Hamza actually had foreign backing. However, when you talk to U.S. officials about this, people become very tight lipped and individuals are not so comfortable speaking about the subject. So I would say this is one of the examples that after the archives are opened about this period, 20, 20, 21, maybe in 25 or 50 years, we'll probably learn a lot more about this incident. But I would say the main takeaway from it is how Prince Hamza in order to succeed in a coup against a leader, you need the backing of the security forces. Whether the Military and intelligence. And he clearly did not have that. There was no single general or top intelligence chief that sided with him. And that would have been critical. So he, well, had a lot of popularity because he sounded like King Hussein, he spoke Arabic like King Hussein, and he and many individuals of Jordanian tribes backed him. At the same time, he didn't have the support from the Jordanian security establishment that was necessary to take over such an operation.
- [28:40]
Roberto Mazza
Let me ask you something that is not necessarily in the book, but it's more about your expertise. Now, if we move to 2025, given recent events, do you think Abdullah is still under threat? Do you think the Jordanian monarchy is still under threats?
- [28:55]
Aaron Megid
Sure, it's a great question. So this is a topic that many analysts have written about, especially because Jordan, many of its neighbors, Syria, Iraq, Egypt, the leaders have fallen during King Abdullah's reign. So will Jordan also be the next one? Especially because the country is so poor. Poor with very little oil. But I would say in the short term, King Abdullah's rule is not in jeopardy. He maintains strong support from the security forces, both the military and the intelligence apparatus. And we see that both through the 2021 Prince Hamza affair, but also from 2023 in the Gaza war where you have over 1,500 protesters, according to Amnesty International, were pro Gaza protesters were arrested by Jordanian security forces. And if many Jordanian officers were unhappy with King Abdullah's policies, especially relating to the Israel Hamas war, they wouldn't want to participate in those arrests. So the security forces are strongly aligned with the king. In order for there to be some sort of coup, you'd need the security forces to go against him. Or if we saw in the case of Syria, where the security forces were ineffective and you had parts of the country that HTs were operating independently, that does not occur in Jordan. Additionally, we have the United States has maintained excellent ties with Jordan and that's critical for the country to maintain its stability. So we saw in 2011 when President Obama called for Hossein Mubarak to resign after Arab Spring protests in Jordan. There were also protests against the leader, both because of corruption and because of the lack of democracy. But the United States did not call on King Abdullah to leave power because it shows how central Jordan is for the US national security interest. So US Continues to supply Jordan with billions of dollars in aid, with military hardware, with intelligence cooperation, and that has ensured that Jordan's has remained in power. I would say in the long term, though, that the challenge maybe not for King Abdullah, but more for his son. If he were to take over would be the very high unemployment rate, the fact that approximately 25% of Jordanians after Covid were unemployed and even now today it's about 21 22%. So this is going on for many years where the unemployment rate has been well over 20% and that's not sustainable for so many youth to be unemployed and very few job prospects. So the Jordanian authorities really have to figure out how to provide their youth with better economic opportunities. And I would say that's the most important factor in terms of its long term regime stability.
- [31:40]
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- [32:08]
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- [32:26]
Roberto Mazza
To stick to the family in a sense and you devote a chapter comparing Abdullah with his father, the legendary. Let's say that King Hussein, now hussein ruled for 46 years and more importantly survived multiple assassination attempts. So how does Abdullah's leadership style and legacy to his point compare to his father's? And I think it's fair to ask whether this comparison is fair given the different challenges they both faced.
- [32:57]
Aaron Megid
Sure. So on the one hand the comparison is difficult because they ruled during very different time periods. King Hussein actually started being a leader when he was a teenager and then continued up until 1999 and King Abdullah from 1999 until the present day. But I would say the most significant differences would be the media coverage. Under King Hussein, the Jordanian authorities were able to really cover the politics and the security developments of the country from their own perspective, whether through censorship or just state aligned newspapers. Now under King Abdullah's period, you have Al Jazeera, you have other pan Arabs television stations are able to portray their narrative about what's happening in Jordan directly to the Jordanian people. So King Abdullah is not able to control it to the same extent. And then you also have examples of the Paramount papers, these leaks that have been funded through international media that have very much embarrassed King Abdullah, whether in terms of his bank accounts in Switzerland or his properties in the United States and United Kingdom. Those kind of sophisticated media operations weren't available during King Hussein's time. So the comparison is somewhat challenging. But I would say at the same time, it is a very sensitive question and not one that Jordanian authorities very much appreciate being asked. I would say, number one, King Hussein was extremely popular, as you mentioned, because he ruled for so long and he really evoked a very strong sense of Jordanian nationalism. So there were many Jordanians, both of tribal background and Palestinian descent, who very much appreciated his rule. He was considered closer to the tribes. He spoke Arabic in a really excellent manner and people were very proud of his rule. With King Abdullah, I would say he's not nearly as popular as his father, number one, it's because he spent so much time in the United States and United Kingdom, the fact that when he became king, he didn't speak Arabic fluently. So from a cultural standpoint, many Jordanians did not feel nearly an intimate connection with their leader under King Abdullah like they did with King Hussein. Also, King Hussein spent more time with the tribes. The King Abdullah likes to spend a lot more time in the West. And then I would say also King Abdullah's main concerns for his popularity level is just really the terrible economy. The fact that when he came into power, yet even a decade and a half before President Trump was calling about America first, he was adopting a Jordan first policy in order to improve Jordan's economy and to really focus Jordan's decisions on their own national interests, not pan Arab issues. This is in 2002 and 2003, before the US invasion of Iraq. But even though King Abdullah is focused so much on Jordanian concerns, the economy still is terrible. And then I would say finally, King Hussein benefited in a popularity level from saying no to the United States and opposing Israel or the US Policy towards Iraq. So one example would be Jordan joining the 1967 Middle east war under King Hussein. And there were time and time again where there were much frostier relations with Israel under King Hussein. King Abdullah has maintained the peace treaty during his entire reign, in contrast to his father, King Hussein, who said no to the US invasion of Iraq in 2003. He worked much more diplomatically with the Bush administration before its invasion of his Iraqi neighbor. King Abdullah has strengths, as I mentioned, in providing security for his people stability in contrast to the situation in Syria and Iraq and other Arab countries. But I would say he definitely does not match the popularity levels of his father, whether because of economic reasons or just because of cultural and identity politics.
- [37:00]
Roberto Mazza
I have a couple of more questions, but I want to ask something about the Queen, Queen Rania. Rania Al Yasinov. The Queen is of Palestinian descent, but like the husband, educated in the English speaking world, whether in Kuwait and then I think in Britain. If I remember well, she certainly work, I remember for Apple at some point. Right?
- [37:23]
Aaron Megid
Correct.
- [37:24]
Roberto Mazza
Can you talk a little bit about this kind of relationship? And also what is the role of Queen Rania vis a vis the political choices made by the King, whether vis a vis the Palestinians or towards the West?
- [37:38]
Aaron Megid
So especially during King Abdullah's first decade in power, Queen Rania played a very active role in the beginning. She pushed a lot of feminist issues, gender equality. So for example, she wanted to allow for Jordanian women who are married to foreigners to pass along citizenship to their children. This was very controversial because many Jordanians, women who marry foreigners or Palestinians, so the question of identity politics becomes important. So she really pushed those issues, but she actually got some criticism for it. And for example, on that topic, even though she was pushing for Jordanian women to be able to pass down citizenship to their children, the Jordanian authorities didn't end up going with her demand. And until this day, those Jordanian women who marry a foreigner, whether Palestinian or Syrian or Egyptian, their children are not Jordanian. So that would be one issue. She also pushed for Jordanian women to be able to initiate divorce proceedings from their husband. And that was controversial because Jordan is a very conservative religious society. So there are time and time again where she tried to play a role in domestic politics. I would say it hit a wall in 2011 with the Arab Spring protests where a lot of the criticism from the tribal leaders were actually focused entirely on her. There was of a lot letter from over 36 tribal activists saying that her meddling in domestic politics was inappropriate. They accused her of corruption. And then after that, after the Arab Spring protests, she really dialed back her public media image because she didn't want what was seen as provocative by some of the tribal elements. So she skilled back her outreach. I would say in recent years she's been more prominent on the Palestinian issue, so focusing more on foreign policy and less domestic politics. We saw that almost Immediately after the 2023 Gaza war, she gave an interview with CNN that was harshly critical of Israel. This was weeks after the Hamas attacks. But then she's continued on almost a regular basis. Even the past week she gave a very strong address in Italy. So she's decided to focus her attention on the Palestinian issue, which is widely popular among Jordanians. And so that's how she maintains her influence to this day.
- [40:03]
Roberto Mazza
A couple of questions, and one is about details. Now the book is really filled with remarkable details and some of them got my attention. One, because I love Clint Eastwood, but more importantly because I'm a Trekkie, I lost her track and I knew, and I remember that the king appears in an episode. So Abdullah you mentioned in the book, you know, has been quoting Clint Idswood's Unforgiveness essentially to demand revenge against isis. But at the same time he appeared in an episode of Star Trek and he disguised himself with a fake beard to inspect government services. You know, these are amazing episodes, given the position is covering. So what surprised you most in researching this biography and what do you think readers will find most revealing about this crucial, but as we mentioned at the beginning, understudied Middle Eastern leader.
- [41:00]
Aaron Megid
So I would say that it's definitely remarkable, his biography, especially because he's an Arab leader. Just think about it. If this were an American leader and the American leaders spoke better Spanish than English when he became the president, it'd be very difficult or nearly impossible for that person to be elected. If as president, this American leader still had property in Mexico, he would be widely criticized for that. If he spent months at a time in Mexico while the leader of the United States, that would be very bizarre. There are all these anecdotes I agree with. You are really unique with King Abdullah and why I think the title the Most American King is appropriate. I don't mean it as some people could say. It is a praise because that means he has established a strong ties with the most important country in the world. And I don't mean it as criticism in the sense that he's being run by American foreign policy and he's just a vassal state. I'm just pointing out as a fact there's no other Arab leader that has nearly as excellent both personal and political ties with the United States throughout his life as King Abdullah. So I would say one anecdote that I found particularly interesting is when I spoke with the former U.S. ambassador to Jordan, he told me that King Abdullah was actually flying to the United States on 911 and the US ambassador had to call him and say, no, you can't come right now. We're having a massive terrorist attack. This is unprecedented. Jordan, we appreciate the friendship with Jordan, but this is not the time to have a regular meeting. And King Abdaal said, no, no, no. This is actually the most important time for me to come, because you need to hear that an Arab leader rejects terrorism, rejects extremism, and this will be appreciated by the American public. So he hung up and he wanted to continue to come. And actually Queen Rania actually called back and she said, no, American ambassador, you need to convince King Abdullah that he really can't come. He doesn't believe me. And then only finally after the second time, where the US Ambassador convinced him that this is just not going to work out. President Bush appreciates the friendship, but the priority right now is not the Hashemite Kingdom, it's what's happening in Afghanistan. Al Qaeda, Osama bin Laden. So I thought that was a really unique anecdote that I found particularly warm. And I think in general that my conversations with former US ambassadors, because of the close relationship, they have the most interesting anecdotes for the country, more than even like I spoke with a few CIA directors and the CIA directors, well, of course they have an interesting ties with King Abdullah. They're not meeting with him two to three times a week like a former US Ambassador was. So I think at kind of the mid senior level, those anecdotes were probably the most impactful for the book.
- [43:38]
Roberto Mazza
Now, after 25 years in power, how would you assess Abdullah's legacy? I mean, obviously he's still in power, but you write that he's provided sort of an island of security, but also presides over economic despair. We Talked about this. 21% of unemployment growing is now actively grooming Crown Prince Hussein to succeed him. We've seen that at work, particularly in recent months. I personally saw him becoming more a public figure than before. So given everything we discussed, the dependence on usaid, the demographic tension, the political stagnation, obviously the question of Palestine, is the Hashemite monarchy sustainable for another generation? And perhaps it's worth mentioning that the Hashemite monarchy is a British invention. The monarchy was created by the British during the mandatory period, so in the 1920s.
- [44:36]
Aaron Megid
So as you cited, I would agree that his legacy is mixed. On the one hand, he's ensured that his country, instead of refugees fleeing from Jordan into neighboring Syria and Iraq, it's the opposite, because Jordan is so to close, quiet, because he provided security for his people. And that really is a success considering how terrible the situation has been for many of his Arab neighbors. Certainly for the Palestinians at Gaza, you don't see tens of thousands or thousands or even hundreds of Jordanians killed at any point during his reign. And that's in large part because of his excellent intelligence. Services and his focus in the war against terrorism. So that is definitely a success from a foreign policy perspective. He's maintained really strong relations with the United States, but also he's maintained cordial ties with China, with Russia, and Jordan in general is an ally for many key countries around the world. But the legacy domestically is much more problematic. I would say on one hand, we mentioned this time and time again, but it's just critical because most Americans, when we vote, we vote based on economic concerns. Of course, Jordanians don't have the option to vote for their leader. But I argue that if he were to face multiple elections, I don't think he would continue to win if it were really free and fair, just because he's done such a terrible job managing the economy. We cited 21% unemployment, but among the youth, it's nearly 50%. So there's so many Jordanians who go to university and graduate with degrees in engineering, and then they end up being taxi drivers because there's just no future. During the Biden administration, there was actually a phenomenon where Jordanians were traveling to Mexico to try to illegally immigrate to the United States to find jobs. Of course, that no longer is viable with the Trump administration, but that just shows the level of despair that exists in Jordan where the youth are leaving, whether at that time to Mexico. Many go to the Gulf region to find jobs just because there's just such a minimal high tech sector and the private industry is quite weak. So King Abdullah, I would say that is his greatest weakness. And then the second one is also him promising political reform, the democratization, the liberalization he's done, all these committees, all these speeches, all these letters to the Jordanian public, whether during the Arab spring, even in 2004, 2005, after the print Hamza sedition affair. And we're basically where it started, where Jordan remains an authoritarian regime. And one of the reasons why this book is the first comprehensive biography written about King Abdullah when I started in 2022 is because if a Jordanian were to write this book and issue any sort of criticism of the government, they would end up in jail and. Or the relatives would lose jobs in the government. And many Jordanians work for the public sector. So it just shows that his promises of democratization have been really hollow words. And then we saw another example of that with the cybercrime law that was passed in 2023 that really cracked down on free speech, and then again with the restrictions on the Muslim Brotherhood after winning the elections last year. So his legacy is mixed in terms of how sustainable the model is. I would say that long term there could be threats just because if you have more and more of the population being of Palestinian descent and the regime, at least traditionally, was of, you know, a different background. Though the Crown prince, we should note, is half Palestinian himself. His mother is Queen Rania was Palestinian, his father is not. So we do have demographic concerns, we do have economic challenges. We do. We do have political repression. But at the same time, there are many actors who are very invested in Jordan maintaining its stability. It's not just the United States, it's not just the Gulf countries like Saudi Arabia or the UAE or Bahrain because they don't want a fellow Arab monarchy to fall on their footsteps. That would be a bad precedent for them. And they've given a lot of aid to Jordan in times of crisis. Israel certainly doesn't want them Muslim Brotherhood to take over, given the October 7th attacks. So a lot of key international actors want Jordan to succeed. And I think that is also a key factor in why King Abdullah has been able to maintain power for so long.
- [49:03]
Roberto Mazza
One last question. Obviously the book is way richer than our conversation, so is there anything that I didn't ask, but you want the listeners to hear about your book and King Abdullah.
- [49:16]
Aaron Megid
So I would say the book's title is the Most American King. We've really focused on a lot of the unique relationships he has with the United States, both personally and politically. But I think it's also really outstanding, his relationship with the United Kingdom, the fact that not only did he go to elementary school in the United Kingdom, but he actually served in the British military. So that's really bizarre. If an American leader would have served, served in the Mexican military before he went back to the United States, that I think is remarkable. The fact that he went then later to Oxford University. He speaks with a British accent, though he didn't graduate from Oxford University, actually didn't ever graduate from college, so he's technically a college dropout. But I think his relationship with Great Britain is really remarkable and you could almost write a whole book just on that topic as well, just how unique it is for a leader. So he has the relationship that certainly from the west, from the American perspective, with Washington is critical. But I would think it's equally noteworthy his very warm ties with the United Kingdom.
- [50:20]
Roberto Mazza
This was Aaron Megy, author of the Most American King Abdullah of Jordan, published by Universal Publishers in 2025. Aaron, thank you so much.
- [50:32]
Aaron Megid
Thank you again. I really appreciate it.