Podcast Summary

Podcast: New Books Network – New Books in Military History

Episode: Adrian Pohl, “Making Antifascist War: The International Brigades’ Transnational Encounters with Civil-War Spain, 1936–1939” (Cambridge UP, 2025)
Host: Ryan Tripp
Guest: Dr. Adrian Pohl
Date: September 24, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode features historian Dr. Adrian Pohl, whose new book re-examines the International Brigades—volunteers who flocked from around the world to fight in the Spanish Civil War (1936–1939)—with a focus on their lived experiences and encounters in Spain. Rather than viewing Spain as a mere backdrop or the International Brigades as a purely foreign force, Pohl’s research foregrounds Spain’s people, places, and politics, analyzing how these transnational encounters shaped antifascist warfare, cross-cultural solidarity, and the forging of political and military unity among disparate volunteers.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Re-centering Spain in the International Brigades Narrative

• Motivation & Methodology: Pohl aims to challenge the common narrative that treats Spain as "just a backdrop" for the antifascist heroism of foreign volunteers.
  • "What I wanted to do was put Spain back in the picture of the great and familiar, perhaps too familiar, anti-fascist epic of the International Brigades, rather than treating Spain as a backdrop, treat it as absolutely intrinsic to their experience of war..." (Dr. Adrian Pohl, 03:55)
• He emphasizes that the country itself and its people were intrinsic to shaping the volunteers' experiences, identities, and motivations.

2. Structure, Unity & Challenges within the International Brigades

• Commissars and Command: The role of commissars was crucial beyond just military command; they were "there to teach them the art of antifascists, fascist wars. Specifically making sure that they retained morale, knew what they were fighting for, how they were fighting it." (05:18)
• Print and Propaganda: An extensive print culture, including battalion newspapers, fostered unity and transmitted ideals of discipline and transnational communism (07:09).
• Language Barriers: Despite diverse backgrounds—over 50 countries—the Brigades promoted unity through shared ideology and robust communication efforts.

3. The Communist Connection and Internal Tensions

• Transnational Communist Culture:
  • Most volunteers were male, proletarian, and communists or at least heavily influenced by communist discipline and iconography.
• Relations with Anarchists & Trotskyites: There was significant ideological strain; the Brigades often viewed anarchists as chaotic and undisciplined, which reflected more about the Brigade members' values than about the anarchists themselves (11:04).
  • “Their own view that the Spanish people desperately needed their help, their expertise, in the view of volunteers from Britain, for example, all the more so because Spaniards hadn't participated in the First World War.” (12:31)

4. Integration of Spanish Civilians

• Overlooked Majority: By 1937, Spanish conscripts and volunteers formed the majority of the Brigades, not the foreigners (14:15).
  • Leadership saw the Brigades increasingly as a “gigantic anti-fascist training school for the Spanish people in arms.”
• Anecdotes of Integration: Example of Jose Garcia Anton, a “self-declared fascist” who was conscripted, later identified with, rose within, and was embraced by the International Brigades (16:35).
• Emulation and Mixed Battalions: Spaniards were expected to emulate foreign “veterans,” learning both military skills and anti-fascist politics.
  • “Their foreign counterparts were to quite literally explain the art of anti-fascist war, both in its literal techniques and also in its politics of anti-fascist unity.” (19:17)

5. Conceptions of Fascism, Solidarity, and the Enemy

• “Making” Fascists: The Brigades’ definition of fascism was expansive and ideological, applied to various enemies regardless of their own self-identification.
  • “It's not my intention to be provocative when I say that the International Brigades made fascists as much as they fought them.” (22:46)
• Voluntad (“Will”) and the Opposition: The Brigades believed only their side truly fought out of informed will; they deprived Francoist and North African soldiers of agency, often ascribing to them only coercion or manipulation (26:22).
• Racial Stereotyping: Although progressive in some ways, their depiction of North African soldiers for Franco was deeply racist and predicated on violent stereotypes (27:21).

6. Violence, Killing, and Combat Motivation

• Moral Complexity: Killing was represented as mundane in memoirs/testimonies but varied greatly in meaning and emotional impact, ranging from “enjoyment,” “professional pride,” to deep moral conflict (31:45).
• Unity Amid Variance:
  • “For all of that variation, the insertion brigades seem to have been united in the belief that their use of lethal force was justified by the existential nature of their fight…” (33:25)

7. Encounters with Poverty and the Spanish People

• Rear-Guard Experiences: Volunteers’ exposure to rural poverty reoriented their sense of mission—not just against fascism, but for Spain’s social betterment (34:24).
• Memorable Quote:
  • “I could not look at the people without having tears come to my eyes. These were the most wretched looking people I had ever seen... the thrill that comes to one who... finds himself about to fight for one of the most oppressed and wretched group of people he has ever seen.” (John Simon's diary, 36:30 as relayed by Dr. Pohl)

8. From Abstract Solidarity to Direct Comradeship

• Community Encounters: Cross-cultural interactions in villages—especially with children—personalized the idea of the “Spanish people,” moving “abstract solidarity into a direct feeling of solidarity” (38:23).
• Commissar Efforts: Organized initiatives (harvests, fiestas, healthcare) reinforced ties, and attempted to ensure local civilians supported the anti-fascist effort.
• Drunkenness and Theft: While abuses occurred, these were exceptions tightly policed by commissars, contrary to Francoist propaganda (41:36).

9. Gender, Sexuality, and Exclusion

• Gendered Exclusion: Women were largely excluded from front-line combat, featuring in the Brigades’ culture mainly as symbols (martyrs, nurses) or sexualized figures (44:10).
  • “Everything they said about Spanish women tells you something about how they viewed themselves. And what they had to say about Spanish women was overwhelmingly related to their appearances.” (45:13)
• Prostitution and “Sanitary Purity”: Encounters with prostitutes (often near hospitals) and sexuality were highly charged and, at times, linked to themes of espionage or disease.

10. The International Brigades’ Committee for Children

• Children and Martial Culture: Humanitarian initiatives for Spanish children were used to forge emotional ties and to “create this sense of a shared community between the children of Spain and the foreign volunteers” (47:34).
  • The goal was to turn children into “conscious anti-fascists themselves,” seeing volunteers as anti-fascist “father figures.”

11. Remembrance and the Construction of an Epic

• Memory Politics:
  • “It’s not an accident that the experiences, the memories of some 35,000 individuals have coalesced into such a familiar anti-fascist epic. Like all stories, certain facts have been remembered, certain facts have been forgotten, rearranged.” (49:45)
• Ambiguous Legacy: Different perspectives (progressive, Francoist, revisionist) have shaped how the Brigades are remembered: as martyred heroes, or as foreign intruders.
  • Pohl urges a focus on cross-cultural encounters as essential to understanding the Brigades’ experience and legacy.

Notable Quotes & Moments with Timestamps

• Re-centering Spain:

  • “What I wanted to do was put Spain back in the picture... rather than treating Spain as a backdrop, treat it as absolutely intrinsic to their experience of war.” (Dr. Adrian Pohl, 03:55)

• On Commissars’ Role:

  • “The commissars were kind of there to teach them the art of antifascist wars. Specifically making sure that they retained morale, knew what they were fighting for, how they were fighting it.” (05:18)

• On Integration of Spanish Conscripts:

  • “By 1938... only 30% of the International Brigades were actually foreign.”
  • “They converted themselves from a force for the Spanish people into a force of the Spanish people.” (14:25)

• Moral Complexity of Killing:

  • “Fighting fascism is very, very different to fighting human beings... The lack of attention to the use of lethal forces [in writings] is extraordinary.” (31:57)

• On Volunteers’ Encounters with Poverty:

  • John Simon’s Diary:
    “I could not look at the people without having tears come to my eyes. These were the most wretched looking people I had ever seen.” (36:30, relayed by Pohl)

• Women’s Roles:

  • “Everything they said about Spanish women tells you something about how they viewed themselves. And what they had to say about Spanish women was overwhelmingly related to their appearances...” (45:13)

• Shaping Memory:

  • “Certain facts have been remembered, certain facts have been forgotten... I think that Spain has got an ambiguous place within that narrative.” (49:45)

Important Segments/Timestamps

• 01:30 — Introduction & Author Background
• 02:50 — Motivation for Treating Brigades as Travelers, not just Soldiers
• 05:04 — Political Unity, Discipline & Commissars
• 08:37 — Transnational Communist Culture & Print
• 10:41 — Relations with Anarchists & Internal Tensions
• 14:06 — Integrating Spanish Conscripts (“Citizen Soldiers”)
• 18:44 — Mixed Battalions & “Emulation”
• 22:22 — Fascism, Global Offensive & Solidarity
• 26:22 — Conceptions of Enemy, Voluntad, and Racial Stereotyping
• 29:57 — Use of Lethal Force and Combat Motivation
• 34:24 — Rear-guard Encounters & Motivation
• 38:23 — Turning Solidarity from Abstract to Direct
• 41:36 — Drunkenness and Theft: Abuses & Control
• 44:10 — Gender, Sexuality, and Roles of Exclusion
• 47:32 — Committee for Children & Childhood Martial Culture
• 49:41 — Remembrance of the International Brigades

Conclusion

Dr. Adrian Pohl’s work provides a nuanced look at the International Brigades, not as a monolithic force but as a diverse, ideologically driven, sometimes divided group of foreign and Spanish volunteers whose encounters with Spain and its people fundamentally shaped their experience of war and the enduring mythology around antifascist internationalism. The episode closes with a reflection on how these narratives have been constructed, remembered, and contested—inviting listeners to see the International Brigades’ story as a complex tapestry of solidarity, conflict, and cross-cultural encounter.

For listeners and readers alike, this episode goes far beyond traditional heroics—reframing the International Brigades’ role through the eyes of those who experienced Spain’s civil conflict firsthand, and those who continue to interpret their legacy today.