Podcast Summary

Podcast: New Books Network

Episode: Amanda Belantara and Emily Drabinski, "Ways of Knowing: Oral Histories on the Worlds Words Create" (Litwin Books, 2024)
Date: October 5, 2025
Host: Jen Hoyer
Guests: Amanda Belantara and Emily Drabinski

Main Theme

This episode delves into the book Ways of Knowing: Oral Histories on the Worlds Words Create, a collection of oral histories compiled by Amanda Belantara and Emily Drabinski. The book—and the broader project of the same name—documents alternative thesauri and controlled vocabularies created by communities to address the inadequacies and biases of traditional library classification systems. The conversation explores why classification matters, how vocabularies shape access to knowledge, and the power of collective action, joy, and possibility in knowledge organization.

Episode Breakdown

1. Meet the Editors (01:29–04:15)

• Emily Drabinski (02:37):

  • Associate Professor & Chair at Queens College Library School, CUNY.
  • Longtime academic librarian, recent ALA President.
  • Balancing administrative work, scholarly pursuits, and "figuring out how to make a spring schedule…without making a ton of mistakes."

• Amanda Belantara (03:33):

  • Associate Curator at NYU Libraries, background in audiovisual anthropology.
  • Path to libraries began with audiovisual ethnography in Manchester.
  • "It's been an absolute privilege and pleasure documenting these oral histories alongside Emily."

2. Genesis and Goals of the Ways of Knowing Project (04:15–07:21)

• Began as a follow-up to "Catalogers at Work," which focused on the frustrations and constraints catalogers face with standard systems.

• Realization: Some catalogers intervene in the system; others create alternative vocabularies from scratch.

• Amanda: "We wanted to investigate alternatives to these normative systems, and that's how Ways of Knowing got started." (05:42)

• Emily Drabinski (06:02):

  • Emphasizes documenting not only the problems of standardization but also the "actual solutions that are coming from communities...committed to making their worlds known to each other."

3. Why Vocabulary and Classification Matter (07:21–13:28)

• Emily Drabinski introduces the concept of controlled vocabularies with anecdotes (07:51):

  • Controlled vocabularies help standardize subject searches—for example: "If I wanted to find everything written about the plant marijuana, without controlled vocabularies, I have to search 'marijuana,' 'weed,' 'grass,' 'ganja'..." (09:29)
  • These systems make search easier, but picking one term excludes others, especially significant when describing people or identities.

• On exclusion:

  • "The way that those of us who come from communities that are, you know, places that are not sort of the standard...we're all pretty familiar with having to shift between words, right? ...the library can't account for that, which means...retrievable using that control vocabulary, are in the terms of a dominant ideology. That excludes, frankly, most of us." (11:13)

• Amanda Belantara (12:12):

  • Classification affects all aspects of life, from plug sockets to bathroom signs: "Who decides these rules? And then once I got into working in libraries, I was fascinated by this idea of just committees coming together to make these decisions...they're making choices that have huge impact."

4. Why a Print Book? The Value of Multiple Mediums (13:28–18:34)

• The book features transcriptions of oral histories—specifically about the Chicano Thesaurus, the Homosaurus, and the Women's Thesaurus.

• Amanda: "There's lots of different ways of knowing and there's a lot of people who will not sit down and listen to an oral history interview...some people really would rather read the text as a print book…" (14:31)

• Adds references and scholarly apparatus not available in the online versions.

• Emily Drabinski (15:51):

  • "Part of why we wanted to do a book was for tenure and promotion…But also, books are one of the ways that academic work becomes legible inside of the systems in which we do our work… It's a physical manifestation that will outlast whatever they do to the Internet, right. Then it will persist."

• Amanda Belantara (17:25):

  • Print confers legitimacy and lasting impact: "People somehow value ideas shared in print in a book more than...online in a website...I think it's just our small contribution to also hoping that these stories will remain and remain a source of inspiration and positivity..."

5. Key Themes Emerging from the Oral Histories (18:34–23:50)

• Emily Drabinski (19:25):

  • Major themes: labor, meaning-making, joy, community, process.
  • For example, the Chicano Thesaurus was built as a collective community-making process, not just an info resource.
  • "We need more examples of how people have worked together collectively to solve problems. And this book is full of those." (21:16)

• Amanda Belantara (22:15):

  • The power of possibility and collective action even in difficult institutional environments: "The key theme is possibility, change and action."
  • Stories of grassroots organizing (mailing worksheets for the Chicano Periodical Index in the 1970s), juxtaposed with today's technology.

6. The Vision: Inspiring Change & Joy (23:50–30:17)

• Drabinski: (23:50, 25:11, 26:45)

  • Ordinary steps make daunting change possible: "We often think that social change or social justice happens when we believe something really hard, right? But what it actually means is that we...got a meeting together, and then we had a call, and then we applied for a grant. And ... all those are the steps of change."
  • Detailed, practical examples—like funding mechanisms—are shared in the book for those interested in starting similar projects.

• Belantara (25:11):

  • Hopes book will spur more community-driven projects: "Look at how worthwhile it is. Look how life changing it is...to be able to find something in a library by using words that are meaningful to them. Right? Like, that's so powerful."
  • Offers assurance: "Anybody who was interviewed for this book will be glad to talk to anybody who wants to do something similar..."

• Drabinski on recognition of invisible labor: "I hope that by documenting this, some of the catalogers and classifiers in the field will see that their work is valued by people who don't do it as part of their day job, which would include me and Amanda." (29:47)

7. What's Next: Expanding the Project (30:17–35:24)

• Belantara (30:38):

  • Continuing to document new projects (like the Mondobigan Classification at Saginaw Chippewa Tribal Libraries) and updating the Ways of Knowing website.
  • Developed a digital exhibition (bibliopolitica.org) on Chicano Studies Library history.
  • Future exhibitions may focus on library technologies—a teaser: oral histories about the "library kickstep" stool!

• Drabinski (32:26):

  • Highlights the Mondobigan system: knowledge classified by clan structure—serves both as retrieval tool and method of teaching cultural knowledge.
  • A focus on finding joy, especially in difficult times: "We try to have a lot of fun and so really excited about. About what's to come from our collaboration...we have a publication about the joy of cataloging. And it's absolutely at the heart of our collaboration."

• Notable moment: Library joy as essential, especially amid hardship:

  • "More library joy, including in academic libraries where we often don't make enough fun." (35:07)

Notable Quotes

• Emily Drabinski, on the stakes of vocabularies (11:13):
  “The way that those of us who come from communities that are, you know, places that are not sort of the standard...we're all pretty familiar with having to shift between words, right?...the library can't account for that, which means...retrievable using that control vocabulary, are in the terms of a dominant ideology. That excludes, frankly, most of us.”

• Amanda Belantara, on alternative vocabularies (12:12):
  “Who decides these rules? And then once I got into working in libraries, I was fascinated by this idea of just committees coming together to make these decisions...they're making choices that have huge impact.”

• Emily Drabinski, on process over product (19:25):
  “The process is worth caring about and documenting and remembering...This book is an antidote. You can go hang out with your friend who cares about what you care about and think about what you might build together.”

• Amanda Belantara, on action (22:15):
  “If people back then could do it...we have all these technologies now that make it even easier and there's so much we can do. So for me, the key theme is possibility, change and action.”

• Emily Drabinski, on real change (26:45):
  “We often think that social change or social justice happens when we believe something really hard, right? But what it actually means is that...all hard things are basically just a number of small steps that people take.”

• Amanda Belantara, on inspiration (25:11):
  “Our hope is to show the possibility, the hope and change, and to hopefully encourage people to not be scared to take something on...it's how powerful it is to do this when people are willing to put their heart into it and put the time into it, because that's what it boils down to.”

Timestamps for Key Segments

• 01:29–04:15 — Introductions: Backgrounds and Paths
• 04:15–07:21 — Project Genesis & Problems with Standard Classification
• 07:21–13:28 — Why Controlled Vocabularies Matter
• 13:28–18:34 — Why Publish in Print? Mediums and Materiality
• 18:34–23:50 — Key Themes: Labor, Joy, Process, Community
• 23:50–30:17 — Hopes for Change: Inspiration and Practicality
• 30:17–35:24 — What's Next: New Stories, Exhibitions, and Library Joy

Takeaways

• Ways of Knowing demonstrates that knowledge organization is not neutral, and that communities can—and do—build vocabularies that reflect their own ways of being.
• The collection is both an archive and an inspiration for librarians, catalogers, and all those seeking to make knowledge more accessible, inclusive, joyful, and meaningful.

For anyone interested in libraries, social justice, or collective change, this episode—and the book—offer “a vision of change,” grounded in both practical steps and deep possibility.