Podcast Summary: "Feminism in the Wild: How Human Biases Shape Our Understanding of Animal Behavior"

Podcast: New Books Network – Animal Studies Channel
Host: Kyle Johansen
Guests: Dr. Ambika Kamath & Dr. Melina Packer
Book: Feminism in the Wild: How Human Biases Shape Our Understanding of Animal Behavior (MIT Press, 2025)
Date: January 13, 2026

Episode Overview

This episode features a discussion with Dr. Ambika Kamath and Dr. Melina Packer about their groundbreaking book, Feminism in the Wild. The conversation explores how scientific understandings of animal behavior are deeply shaped by the cultural and social biases of researchers—particularly those connected to gender, race, class, and other intersecting systems of oppression. Kamath and Packer detail their collaborative journey, the rarity of their interdisciplinary partnership, the arguments and evidence in their book, and their call for a paradigm shift in animal behavior science.

Guest Backgrounds

Ambika Kamath

• Former evolutionary biologist, now a researcher at a nonprofit supporting labor and community organizing (01:58).
• Lives in Oakland, CA.
• Work focuses on social interactions and movement behaviors of lizards; moved into exploring how personal and societal biases shape scientific inquiry.

Melina Packer

• Assistant Professor, Race, Gender, and Sexuality Studies, University of Wisconsin–La Crosse (Ho Chunk Nation Land).
• Research interests include feminist science studies, animal studies, environmental justice (02:39).
• Background in public policy and environmental science; author of Toxic Sexual Politics and upcoming work on hunting dogs.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

Origins and Motivation for the Book

• Genesis: The book arose from Kamath’s doubts about conventional wisdom in animal behavior science, stemming from her empirical research on lizards which challenged established notions of territoriality. Kamath noticed entrenched beliefs in the field were based not just on evidence, but also on cultural and interpersonal influences (03:19).
• Interdisciplinary Collaboration: Kamath and Packer met at a UC Berkeley working group, engaging scientists and feminist science studies scholars. They noticed the field needed a comprehensive examination, not just piecemeal improvements, to address how human cultural narratives shape science (07:03).

The Rarity of Their Collaboration

• Barriers: Collaborations across science and feminist science studies are rare, largely due to disciplinary antipathy and differing definitions of evidence and strong argumentation (10:21).
• Changing Landscape: Both note increases in such collaborations among newer generations of scholars, gradually challenging disciplinary hubris and opening science to new perspectives (12:38).

  “It takes a lot of...chipping away at scientific hubris to be able to understand and appreciate perspectives that come from fields in the humanities and social sciences.” – Ambika Kamath [11:10]

Broad, Multi-Dimensional Conception of Feminism

• Intersectional Feminism: Packer articulates feminism as the analysis of interlocking systems of oppression—race, gender, class, sexuality, and ability (14:26). She favors "multi-dimensional feminism" over "intersectional feminism" to reflect the historical co-construction of categories like gender and race.

  “You just can’t talk about gender without talking about race, and you can’t talk about gender and race without talking about class...There, we can’t have single-issue social movements because none of us live single-issue lives.” – Melina Packer [16:05]

• Why ‘Feminism’ in the Title?: Feminism serves as an entry point due to its historical familiarity and accessibility, especially given the history of women pushing back against patriarchal conventions in biology (21:50).

Human Biases and the Feedback Loop in Science

• Territoriality Example: Kamath describes how the default assumption that lizards are territorial led to study designs and publication biases that perpetuated this narrative, even when actual behavioral observations contradicted it (24:09).

  “Once you have decided that an animal species is territorial, the way you will design your studies to examine their behavior...is going to be influenced by territoriality.” – Ambika Kamath [28:40]

• Reinforcement of Human Norms: The projection of human social norms onto animals reinforces those same norms in human society, naturalizing ideas like private property or gendered behavior (36:11).

Paradigms in Animal Behavior Science

Biological Determinism

• Definition: Traits and behaviors are thought to be locked into biology, especially genes.

• Critique: This approach limits possibilities for explanation and social change, as well as more nuanced scientific exploration (37:33).

• Examples: “Boys will be boys” is critiqued as a socially reductive and harmful justification of power dynamics, attributed incorrectly to biology (43:03).

  "If biology or genes are the core explanation for something, then there isn't much we can do about it." – Ambika Kamath [39:18] "Testosterone doesn't cause aggression...female mammals have testosterone too...Our biologies simply do not determine or otherwise program and limit who we are and how we behave." – Melina Packer [43:18]

• Resilience of Paradigm: The paradigm is sociologically resilient because anomalies are often ignored, explained away, or kept from publication (46:33). A paradigm shift requires concurrent social and value changes, not just data accumulation.

  "The feminist scientific revolution will come about not because empirical anomalies accumulate and throw the current paradigm into crisis, but because changes in social values and relationships require a different way of knowing the natural world.” – (citing Helen Longino) [48:40]

Marginalized Standpoints

• Standpoint theory posits those oppressed by a system are often best positioned to critique it (50:29).
• Historical examples: Women in science challenged patriarchal assumptions in animal behavior precisely because of their lived experience.

Replacement Paradigm: Contingency & Co-Constitution

• Contingency: Outcomes in animal behavior are historically situated and dependent on sequences of actions and context (53:31).

• Co-Constitution: Social categories (like gender and race) and biological categories are inseparable and must be analyzed together. Organisms and environments ‘become together’, influencing each other in complex ways.

• Examples: Female mate choice in birds is influenced more by learning from others (social context) rather than by genetics alone. This requires acknowledging multi-causality and rejecting simple explanations (55:00).

  "There is no true cause...and that truest cause is definitely not genetics." – Ambika Kamath [57:55]

  "Gender and race do not exist as separate things—they themselves are co-constituted." – Melina Packer [60:22]

• Difficult, but Promising: Adopting these perspectives is theoretically and practically challenging but opens science to greater complexity, agency in animals, and ultimately, more accurate explanations (61:57).

Notable Quotes and Moments

• On Feminist Method:

  "Feminist theory in action has long had this tradition of being reflexive, being self-critical." – Melina Packer [21:04]

• On Animal Agency:

  “If you accept and acknowledge that animals have agency...then you have to confront all the kinds of violence that humans have enacted upon animals." – Melina Packer [65:17]

• On Scientific Paradigms:

  "When you know the answer already… it's not the same as building new ways of seeing the world and testing those out." – Ambika Kamath [62:34]

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Guest Introductions: [01:47–03:06]
• Motivation for Writing the Book: [03:19–07:03]
• Nature and Challenges of Interdisciplinary Collaboration: [10:21–13:45]
• Explication of Intersectional (Multi-Dimensional) Feminism: [14:26–18:37]
• Debate on Terminology and Book Framing: [19:00–23:46]
• Illustrative Example – Territoriality in Lizards: [24:09–34:29]
• Reinforcing Human Social Norms via Science: [34:35–36:18]
• Explanation and Critique of Biological Determinism: [37:33–45:37]
• Paradigm Shifts and the Resilience of Bad Ideas: [46:33–49:31]
• Marginalized Standpoints and Scientific Critique: [50:29–53:03]
• Contingency & Co-Constitution Paradigm: [53:31–63:31]
• Implications for Animal Agency: [64:40–65:53]
• Current and Future Projects: [66:30–68:39]

Closing & Next Steps

The episode ends with updates from the authors: Kamath is currently focused on family and reflecting on bodily and systemic experiences, while Packer is working on a book about hunting dogs and artificial selection as intersections of gender, race, and animal studies.

Final Thoughts

Kamath and Packer’s work powerfully critiques reductionist scientific paradigms and pushes animal behavior science—and science more broadly—to grapple with complexity, historical contingency, and the biases of those producing scientific knowledge. Their conversation opens space for greater interdisciplinary work and activism in both animal studies and science studies communities.