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- [00:04]
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- [01:35]
Michael Morales
What is the narrative of Mamre in sodom in Genesis 18 and 19 really about? Surprisingly, Ambra Suriano says the main topic has to do with the knowledge of good and evil. Tune in as we speak with Ambra Suriano about her recent monograph, Narrative Paths through Mamre and Sodom, the Oak and the Gate. You're listening to New Books and Biblical Studies, a channel of the New Books Network, and I'm your host, Michael Morales. Ambra Suriano studied philology and literature of the ancient world in Rome and got her PhD in Biblical Narratology in Aachen. She currently works at Lancaster University in the Department of Politics, Philosophy and Religion, having been awarded a Marie Curie. She has published articles including But Sarah Denied for she Was Afraid, which includes narratology in Genesis 18 and a piece on Josiah called Outside the City walls remarks on 2 Kings 23:4 20. Amra welcome to New Books and Biblical Studies.
- [02:36]
Ambra Suriano
Thank you for having me. It's a pleasure to join you on this project.
- [02:39]
Michael Morales
So would you tell us about yourself and how you got interested in studying Genesis 18 and 19?
- [02:46]
Ambra Suriano
I studied philology and ancient history at Sapienza University in Rome, and then I did my PhD in Germany with Simone Paganini, a theologian, has mostly worked on biblical narratology. Right now I'm based in Lancaster in England, and I'm working on the use of biblical topics in political speeches. So now I'm basically in the field of Bible reception in contemporary world. How did I get interested in Genesis 18:19? Good question, and thanks for asking. Asking. Well, I was sure that my primary focus would have been the Book of Genesis because I've always been interested into narrative construction in ancient literature. So narratively speaking, Genesis is definitely one of the most sophisticated books in the Hebrew Bible.
- [03:51]
Expedia Narrator
And.
- [03:52]
Ambra Suriano
And at first I was, sorry, only looking at the story of Sodom because I'd always been fascinated by how it's been received in art, cinema and literature. I'm Italian, so now the first name that comes to my mind, of course, is Pierpaolo Pasolini with his famous movie 120 Days of Sodom. My original idea was to explore the narrative variations between Genesis 19 and Judges 19. Since the stories are almost identical, they begin with an hospitality scene, a meal, and then the citizens attempt to harm the guests by collective raping. But then I realized more and more that it really doesn't make sense to separate Genesis 19 from Genesis 18. They're kind of one single story that must be kept together. And, well, that eventually became the central idea of the book. The idea is that the two stories are built in continuity because the two angels who were Abraham's guests leave him and God in Genesis 18 set out from Mamre, arrive in Sodom at the beginning of Genesis 19, and meet Abraham's nephew Lot, and eat with him. In Sodom, they are welcomed in the very same way they were in Mamre, but of course, with a different outcome. What's interesting is that this continuity of the two stories is highlighted by a kind of mirror structure in the narrative, where Genesis 18 represents the positive side and Genesis 19 the negative one. So on the one hand, in Mamre, we have the presence of God who shares a meal under a nook with Abraham in broad daylight on the heights of Mamre, and talks about what justice really is. So. So we have a kind of discussion, kind of the odyssey of kind of discussion about what justice is. And on the other hand, in Sodom, we have the absence of God in a city built down in a valley and wrapped in darkness, where a collective sin completely overturns the very idea of justice that was given before. So, of course, many other aspects create the sense of opposition between the two stories, but those I mentioned are, in my view, certainly the most obvious ones.
- [06:48]
Michael Morales
Tell us a bit about the methodological approach of your study.
- [06:52]
Ambra Suriano
The methodology of the book is quite, let's say, eclectic. Let me explain. Neurotological studies include semiotics, features, philology, hermeneutics, and hermeneutics itself can take on a gender perspective, a postcolonial perspective, or even, I don't know, a human, animal oriented approach. I say this because these are fundamentally contemporary theories and of course, applying them to an ancient text like the Bible can create specific problems and set certain limits. And here I will mention the groundbreaking, or at least it was groundbreaking when it was published, the Book of Umberto Eco, the Limits of Interpretation. More generally, I'd say that my book is primarily grounded in the theories of Genette and Eco, and mainly works with semiotic categories. Leaving aside the diachronic aspects of textual criticism, which is a more traditional approach in the field of biblical studies, within this methodological context, the book indeed considers gender perspective theories, but always from a narratological point of view. It means that, for example, the construction of female characters responds to the needs of being objects of the male part in the narrative. So, for example, they lack a proper name, they never speak, they never act, and when they do, their behavior in the story is always portrayed or judged as outrageous. Long story short, the so called synchronic approach, I would say that kind of allowed me to consider the two tastes as one story, but narratively splitable into five scenes each. And within each of them, within each scene, the unity of action is the main binding that delineates the boundaries. So for unity of action, I mean, for example, the presence of introductory formulas or concluding formulas, the uniformity in vocabulary, all of these elements have been additional arguments to justify the boundaries drawn. Then each scene has been further dissected into smaller, internally coherent units. And this is also important in my view, from a filmmaking perspective. These units, which in the book I call narrative units, differ from the more comprehensive section named Scene, not for qualitative, but for quantitative reasons. So the criteria defining boundaries can be extended to a more significant text portion like the scenes, or a smaller text portion like the narrative units. Within each scene and each narrative unit, the dynamics between the narrator and the reader, or among the characters, or between the narrator and any character, and so on, are analyzed to understand how they interact with each other and with the narrative world. They are programmed for in the end, knowledge is regarded as the central theme of the narrative to which all the characters participate. And this idea of knowledge as the main theme is also based on previous studies that identify knowledge as the main topic of the entire book of Genesis.
- [11:03]
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- [11:25]
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- [11:35]
Ambra Suriano
Hip surgery in November of 2024.
- [11:38]
United Healthcare Narrator
Her United Healthcare nurse Crystal checked on her. We do a routine call after surgery and I could tell that she was struggling. Deborah needed help.
- [11:45]
Ambra Suriano
My infection markers were through the roof.
- [11:47]
United Healthcare Narrator
And Crystal knew what to do. I called the hospital and said she's coming in and got Debra the help she needed.
- [11:53]
Ambra Suriano
Crystal and United Healthcare saved my life.
- [11:57]
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- [12:04]
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- [12:32]
Michael Morales
Apply now. Ambra Would you summarize some of your findings? Your reading of Genesis 18:19, including the text symbolism?
- [12:41]
Ambra Suriano
I'd say that compared to previous studies which also pointed out the symmetrical structure of Genesis 18 and 19, the real novelty of my book lies in some symbolic aspects connected to the story of Sodom. In both episodes, the narrator uses specific words that bring contexts related to rituals to the reader's mind and in this way create a symbolic layer of meaning within the narrative. Other scholars had already pointed out that the story in Genesis 18 has a level of interpretation that allows Abraham's meal with God to be read as a kind of sacred banquet involving the sacrifice of an entire bull which, you know, is a huge amount food for just a few people there, there I think four or five people, and involving a communion meal. And of course, if you look at the story as a finished narrative, all of this is set up. All of these elements are set up as a prelude to the debate about justice between God and Abraham. What my book adds is fundamentally the idea that there is also a symbolic level of interpretation in the episode of Sodom, and that this level needs to be understood within the play of oppositions with the episode of Mamre. So in Genesis 19, you have a rain of brimstone and fire that falls on Sodom to punish the deep corruption and lack of justice, reflecting somehow the flawed episode in Noah's time. This destructive force of fire and brimstone targets sinners and kills them all without distinction. Like in the Flood narrative, a violent rain annihilates humans sin. So you see, the two narratives are in dialogue. An urbanized environment, like the city of Sodom, is a space logically set up for life. And here you have vital and natural processes that are reversed and wholly replaced. They transform the wall of the city into an area of death and devastation. Actually, the reign of brimstone and fire initiates a process of atonement foreseen in this context. If we pay attention to the root of the words used to the notice mock rising from the ashes of Sodom and the people of Sodom, sadly, we notice that it occurs in ritual contexts over the Hebrew Bible, where God receives an offering for sin atonement and smoke ascends to heaven, pleasing God with its smell. Another scholar, Jacob Wright, spoke about urbicide, meaning the ritual killing of a city. And I think this is exactly the case. So in the end, while in Mamre we had the celebration of nature, the celebration of God and justice in Sodom, nature turns out to be the destructive element that God uses to punish desu supremely unjust city, the city which is deeply corrupted by sin. As I said above, all of this knowledge frames the events and remain the main topic of the narratives in Genesis. Knowledge of good and evil is one of the peculiarities that distinguishes God from men. And if you think to the add an episode, for example, it turns out that the tree of knowledge of good and evil is forbidden for Adam and Eve, and the punishment makes them aware of evil. So they are compelled to choose between good and evil for the rest of their existence. And so is the entire humankind ever since in this choice, Abraham represents the virtuous man who welcomes the stranger in need and the stranger in need is of course, exemplified in the figure of the three men. Thus, the patriarch also shows himself ready to receive God before God. Abraham is determined to define a theodicy that considers people's individuality. He overcomes somehow that theodicy proposed by by the flawed narrative in which the guilt of sinners fall on the wall of creation, and proposes a theodicy that suggests sparing the innocents. In favor of what? In favor of individualizing responsibility. The patriarch's gradual shift from unconsciousness to awareness only concerns his ability to choose, since his choices lead him on the Lord's path to the extent that he participates in his decisions. In contrast, you have the sodomites. The sodomites represent those who choose under the guidance of human impulses. By committing violence and threatening sexual abuse, they neglect God and lose awareness of what the divine and human world is and what's, you know, what's the order of these words in the story? They are metaphorically the sodomites. I mean, they are metaphorically blinded in life and get physically blinded by God as a punishment. Lot is also an interesting character because it stands in the middle of the two models. So at the beginning of the narrative, he seems like a new Abraham, welcoming the angels without knowing their divine nature and hosting them. But he assimilates more and more into his fellow citizens during the narration. And clumsy. He offers his virgin daughters to the violence of the sodomites to save his hosts. He's fearful. He distrusts God and proves unable to follow God's way and participate in his knowledge. He disowns somehow the mercy and salvation granted by the Lord. And at the very end of the episode, it is for this reason that Lot's sons, born from his daughters, carry the perversity of their father's choices in their name to make the others know, once again, the topic of knowledge. To make the others know that they were born in sin.
- [20:17]
Michael Morales
That was really rich and helpful. Amra, thank you so much for joining us on New Books and Biblical Studies.
- [20:24]
Ambra Suriano
Thank you. It's been my pleasure to have this opportunity.
- [20:28]
Michael Morales
Friends, we hope you've enjoyed listening to this show of New Books and Biblical Studies, a channel of the New Books Network.
- [20:34]
Ambra Suriano
Goodbye.
- [20:47]
Expedia Narrator
Mike and Alyssa are always trying to outdo each other. When Alyssa got a small water bottle, Mike showed up with a 4 liter jug. When Mike started gardening, Alyssa started beekeeping.
- [20:58]
LinkedIn Ads Narrator
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- [20:59]
Expedia Narrator
They called a truce for their holiday and used Expedia trip planner to collaborate on all the details of the trip. Once there, Mike still did more laps around the pool.
- [21:08]
Ambra Suriano
Whatever.
- [21:09]
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