Podcast Summary

Podcast: New Books Network
Episode: Ann Kavlovic, Count on Me (Guernica Editions, 2025)
Host: Holly Gattery
Guest: Ann Kavlovic
Date: November 15, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode centers on Ann Kavlovic’s debut novel Count on Me, a raw and compelling story exploring the fracturing of families under the pressures of aging, caregiving, and inheritance disputes. Holly Gattery engages Kavlovic in a candid discussion about the novel’s origins, its unflinching depiction of eldercare and familial conflict, the emotional and ethical complexities faced by the ‘sandwich generation,’ and how themes of love, money, and generational trauma are navigated with realism and hope.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Origins and Nucleus of Count on Me

• Kavlovic’s Longstanding Fascination:
  Kavlovic traces the roots of the novel to a “bizarre little fascination” with the tensions between love and money, dating back over 20 years. Her academic background in economics fueled her curiosity, but she lacked a compelling hook until her personal exposure to the realities of nursing homes illuminated where these tensions vividly manifest (03:23).

  • Quote:

    “For over 20 years I've had this bizarre little fascination with love and money and tensions between the two... when I was in grad school for economics, my friends would make fun of me for it...”
    —Ann Kavlovic [03:23]

• Lack of Cultural Conversation:
  Kavlovic notes the relative absence of cultural engagement with the messy realities of eldercare, particularly in fiction.

  • Quote:

    “There’s so little out there… people feel very alone when they're struggling with this... I do hope actually that, you know, this novel will be awareness raising.”
    —Ann Kavlovic [05:21]

2. Depicting the Unvarnished Realities of Eldercare

• The Provocative Opening Scene:
  The novel opens with a scene of intimate caregiving in a nursing home, which generated polarized editorial feedback. Kavlovic defends her decision to confront readers with the physical and emotional truths of aging rather than shying away.

  • Quote:

    “Writers will write novels about wars or post apocalyptic hellscapes… but start with the mention of an old hoo ha, and those same brave soldiers are like, no, it's too much... But when aging comes for you, don't say, I didn't warn you.”
    —Ann Kavlovic [10:37]

• Breaking the Silence and Reducing Stigma:
  Both host and author agree on the importance of acknowledging the “universal, yet occluded” aspects of aging and dependence, asserting that confronting these realities might be uncomfortable but is ultimately vital (13:22-14:27).

3. Complex, Compassionate Characterization

• Tristan and the Spectrum of Empathy:
  Tristan, Tia’s brother, is described as both deeply flawed and deeply human—a character shaped by parental neglect who nevertheless makes unethical choices.

  • Quote:

    “It's a really tricky balance to show… you understand why a character is a certain way, but making it pretty clear that does not excuse it or condone it...”
    —Ann Kavlovic [19:31]

• Intentionally ‘Shadowy’ Characters:
  Kavlovic deliberately avoids fleshing out certain antagonists (like Gloria) to prevent the novel from providing a “manual for elder abuse.” She maintains focus on the central family dynamic and on Tia’s limited perspective (16:24).

4. Familial Dynamics: The “Perfect Storm” of Dysfunction

• Parentification, Negligence, and Cycles of Harm:
  The conversation unpacks how family roles, generational trauma, and inheritance disputes become tangled, with no one cast as fully villainous or heroic. The mother (Vera) is depicted as both a product and perpetrator of harm, but also as a survivor shaped by wartime deprivation (19:31-24:45).

• “Everyday Insidiousness” Over Dramatic Trauma:
  The book’s power lies in its depiction of insidious, everyday psychological harm—resentment, transactional love, and fractured relationships—rather than overt or sensational violence (24:45).

5. Cycle-Breaking and Hope

• Tia as the Bridge to Healing:
  The host and Kavlovic discuss Tia’s journey as a single mother, who overcompensates for her upbringing but eventually finds a more balanced, nurturing partnership with her daughter, Zoe.

  • Quote:

    “I wanted really to have a cycle breaking storyline… you see… Tia is able to… break the cycle and… find a better balance.”
    —Ann Kavlovic [26:43]

• Optimism Without Sentimentality:
  The novel is ultimately hopeful—Tia’s relationship with her daughter provides lightness and healing, even as not all injuries are fully resolved (37:19-39:23).

6. Humor and Lightness Amid the Darkness

• Dark Comedy in the Mundane:
  The host finds humor in the futility and absurdity of family disputes (“the jewelry exchange that will never end”), while Kavlovic acknowledges she deliberately salted the narrative with comic and tender moments (31:27-35:14).

• Tender Scenes:
  Kavlovic reads a poignant ‘couch fort’ scene; Tia’s sense of safety with her daughter serves as both literal and metaphorical healing.

  • Quote:

    “Through my daughter, I held a passport to the land of happy childhoods... Why had I let [those ghosts] linger for so long. It was so much quieter now...”
    —Ann Kavlovic [39:25]

7. Professional Perspective: Economics and the Ethics of Transaction

• Kavlovic’s Background as an Environmental Economist:
  Her professional sensitivity to “transactional” versus genuinely caring interactions shapes both her writing and her understanding of family economies.

  • Quote:

    “There's absolutely nothing wrong with market transactions… Not so much when it's in an intimate context... Art is a gift to this world.”
    —Ann Kavlovic [41:29, 44:25]

• Literary Citizenship and the Gift Economy:
  The interview ends with reflections on how art and literature resist easy commodification—a theme echoed in both Kavlovic’s work and the podcast’s own ethos (44:25-45:10).

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

| Timestamp | Speaker | Quote/Description | |-----------|----------------|----------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 03:23 | Ann Kavlovic | "For over 20 years I've had this bizarre little fascination with love and money..." | | 05:21 | Ann Kavlovic | “There’s so little out there… people feel very alone when they're struggling with this...” | | 10:37 | Ann Kavlovic | “Writers will write novels about wars or post apocalyptic hellscapes… but start with the mention of an old hoo ha… but when aging comes for you, don't say, I didn't warn you.” | | 13:22 | Holly Gattery | “What are we so afraid of?... I think people's reaction to the opening scene says far more about them...” | | 14:27 | Ann Kavlovic | “We're all… whatever parts we have, you know, should we be lucky enough to live long enough, someone's going to be wiping them.” | | 19:31 | Ann Kavlovic | “It's a really tricky balance to show… you understand why a character is a certain way, but making it pretty clear that does not excuse it or condone it...” | | 26:43 | Ann Kavlovic | “I wanted really to have a cycle breaking storyline… you see that, you know, something positive is happening going forward and that. That those cycles don't have to keep going.”| | 31:27 | Ann Kavlovic | Reading: Tia’s bank account monitoring, the subtle red/yellow flags of elder abuse. | | 39:25 | Ann Kavlovic | Reading: “Through my daughter, I held a passport to the land of happy childhoods…” | | 41:29 | Ann Kavlovic | “So I'm an economist, an environmental economist... I understand, you know, international trade and market dynamics and microeconomics, all fine. And then I can recognize maybe when things are transactional in a human relationship versus the mysterious nature of what can go beyond that.” | | 44:25 | Ann Kavlovic | “Art is a gift to this world. If it's good art, it's in the nature of a gift. And how you reconcile those two is just, it's not easy.” |

Segment Timestamps

• 00:00-01:16 – (Ads, Skip)
• 01:16-03:23 – Introduction and Kavlovic’s background
• 03:23-07:08 – Book’s origin: love, money, and family drama
• 07:08-10:37 – Family secrecy and the importance of talking about inheritance/eldercare
• 10:37-14:27 – Opening scene controversy; the reality of aging and reader reactions
• 14:27-19:31 – Compassionate/nuanced portrayals: Tristan, Gloria, and family antagonists
• 19:31-24:45 – Vera as a survivor, “everyday insidiousness,” spectrum of accountability
• 24:45-26:43 – Family dynamics, generational wounds, and cognitive decline
• 26:43-29:03 – Breaking cycles, hope, and the novel’s tone
• 29:03-31:27 – Reading: Subtle flags of elder abuse
• 31:27-34:34 – The “jewelry exchange” as dark humor and transactional love
• 34:34-35:14 – Constructed darkness and deliberate moments of comic relief
• 35:14-39:25 – Tia’s relationship with her daughter; finding light and healing
• 39:25-41:29 – Reading: “Passport to the land of happy childhoods”
• 41:29-45:10 – Kavlovic’s economics background and the ethics of gift/transaction
• 45:10-46:27 – Literary citizenship, art as gift, and fitting art into commerce
• 46:27-end – What’s next: Kavlovic’s playwriting and closing thoughts

Conclusion

This conversation between Holly Gattery and Ann Kavlovic offers a frank, insightful exploration into the emotional fault-lines of aging, family, and money. Count on Me is lauded as both a mirror and a balm, unafraid to probe what families fear most, yet intent on showcasing resilience, honest humor, and the stubborn endurance of love across generations.