Podcast Summary

Podcast: New Books Network
Host: Roland Clark
Episode: Anna Hájková, "People Without History are Dust: Queer Desire in the Holocaust"
Date: December 26, 2025
Guest: Anna Hájková, historian and author

Episode Overview

Anna Hájková joins Roland Clark to discuss her groundbreaking book, People Without History Are Dust: Queer Desire in the Holocaust (U Toronto Press, 2025). Hájková’s work challenges decades of Holocaust historiography by revealing the deeply suppressed and overlooked histories of queer desire, intimacy, and kinship among Holocaust victims and survivors. The conversation critically examines the silences, taboos, ethical complexities, and the urgency of inclusive history-telling within and beyond academic circles.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Defining Queer History vs. History of Homosexuality

• Queer Holocaust Studies as a New Field: Hájková establishes that traditional histories tended to look for fixed sexual identities in the past (“the first homosexual in 1800,” etc.), which is an anachronism.
• Historicizing Sexual Identity: She draws on the work of scholars like Laura Doan, highlighting that people engaged in same-sex practices but did not identify as “homosexual,” “lesbian,” or “gay” (02:03).
  • Notable quote: “Queer history does not look for hard identities...but looks for queer acts and practices for people who engage in same sex sexuality in various ways and means...without looking for hard identities.” — Anna Hájková [03:20]
• Inclusivity & Ethics: This approach is both more inclusive and avoids the pitfalls of modern labels or ‘outing’ historical figures.

2. The Silence of Same-Sex Desire in Holocaust Testimonies

• Statistical Silence: Despite the existence of vast Holocaust archives, only a handful of survivors openly acknowledged same-sex intimacy.
• Homophobia in Camps and Historical Memory: Hájková does not focus on those persecuted for sexuality, but on Jews persecuted for race who also had same-sex desire, revealing intersecting oppressions.
  • Notable quote: “The vault of the camps was quite homophobic...People were more afraid of same sex desire than they were of heterosexual sexual violence.” — Anna Hájková [05:18]
• Narrative Constraints: Survivors described queer acts as disgusting or foreign, limiting positive reclamation.
• Longevity of Silence: Even testimonies taken after gay liberation eras remained silent or homophobic, indicating deep-rooted stigma (06:55).

3. Homophobia in Survivor Testimonies and Interviews

• Patterns Emerge: Survivors (and sometimes their interviewers) often volunteer negative depictions of queer prisoners, frequently as sexual predators, reflecting and perpetuating homophobia (08:22).
  • Notable quote: “You will have people...who volunteer something negative...they will often get a bit contradictory. But here the interviewers also are quite salient, because they don't intervene...Sometimes it is the Interviewers themselves who ask leading questions implying that queer fellow prisoners were particularly scary and disgusting or that queer same sex desire in the camps was one of the particular indignities of the camps.” — Anna Hájková [08:22]
• Responsibility of Historians: Hájková advocates for acknowledging these mentions transparently rather than suppressing them, drawing parallels to how other difficult histories (colonialism, sexual violence) are handled (09:28).

4. The Challenges of Writing Difficult Histories

• Memorable moment:
  • Roland Clark: “But that makes it incredibly difficult history to do, to research and to write too.” [10:04]
  • Anna Hájková: “But Roland, if it was an easy history—” [10:08]
  • Clark: “Exactly. We do these things because they're hard.” [10:10]
  • Hájková: “Yes, exactly. We do these things because they're hard.” [10:13]

5. Case Study: Gad Beck’s Memoir

• Complexities and Contradictions: Beck’s celebrated memoir is lively but complicated by “ugly bits”—sexual violence, sexual barter, and the outing of former lovers without consent.
  • Notable quote: “Gad Beck’s response was like, this is my story, they can suck it up. Which I think is a very interesting response. I don't want to weigh in whether this was an ethical decision. I think it's an incredibly interesting decision for us to discuss methodologically in queer history, to show how ambivalent and difficult these histories are.” — Anna Hájková [11:55]

6. Case Study: Freddy Hirsch—Ambivalence and Abuse

• Dual Nature of Legacy: Hirsch was a heroic, openly gay youth leader, but testimonies accused him of sexual abuse against boys.
  • Hájková: “These are first person testimonies of survivors of sexual violence. There was a man who recalled that when he was 11 or 12 years old, Freddy Hirsch put his hand down his underwear...” [14:38]
• Facing the Uncomfortable: Hájková calls for a nuanced approach, neither excusing abuse nor erasing contributions.
  • Commentary: “I also do not think, you know, Roland, that you need to have someone like me to tell my readers that sexual abuse of teenagers is wrong. I hope everybody knows that shopping is hard, right?” [16:15]

7. Queer Kinship and Survival: The Story of Margot Hooymann

• Queer Kinship as a Framework: Critiques the binary of “biological” vs. “non-biological” families, showing that bonds of love, support, and survival in camps often fell outside traditional family definitions.
  • Notable quote: “Anthropology of kinship is much more inclusive because it simply speaks of kinship...they serve as this emotional support and also with resources.” — Anna Hájková [19:16]
• Margot & Dita’s Romantic Relationship: Margot prioritized her girlfriend over her birth family in Auschwitz, framing queer kinship as a life-affirming and pragmatic survival choice (20:35).

8. Coming of Age, Agency, and Sexual Violence: Nate Leipziger’s Experience

• Nuanced Examination: Leans into the complexities of “agency” during sexual barter or assault in the camps.
  • “What starts as sexual assault...becomes violent sexual barter, because Nate chooses with the very minimal choices that he has...to remain in this relationship.” — Anna Hájková [24:29]
• Not Romanticizing or Sanitizing: Highlights the double-edged experience of protection, affection, violence, and shame entwined in survival (23:50-25:23).

9. Modern Censorship & Anne Frank’s Diary

• Why Ban Anne Frank?: Passages discussing Anne’s crush on a girl and explorations of her sexuality have led to the banning of her diary (and its graphic novel adaptation) by groups like Moms for Liberty.
  • Notable quote: “This is not just an academic question. It shows how epistemology of queerness, of giving young people the sense that they too are part of this society and this history, is being systematically questioned, removed, and destroyed. And that is extremely worrisome.” — Anna Hájková [28:25]

10. State Socialism, Blackmail, and Survivor Agency: The Case of Jerry Vrbach

• Intersectional Vulnerabilities: Jerry Vrbach, a queer Holocaust survivor, was likely targeted by secret police both for being Jewish and for his sexuality, but also found power and agency through informant status.
  • Notable quote: “Being able to inform on his friends and colleagues gave him...a sense of power and of control...the story is not...black and white and therefore it's the best kind of story because people don't exist on the black and white scheme. We are just people.” — Anna Hájková [32:38]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Queer history does not look for hard identities...but looks for queer acts and practices for people who engage in same sex sexuality in various ways.” — Anna Hájková [03:20]
• “[Camp survivors] were more judged, more afraid of same sex desire than they were of heterosexual sexual violence.” — Anna Hájková [05:18]
• “We do these things because they're hard.” — Roland Clark and Anna Hájková [10:10–10:13]
• “Gad Beck’s response was like, this is my story, they can suck it up.” — Anna Hájková [11:46]
• “I hope that I can alert colleagues in Holocaust studies to what's been happening [with censorship and bans].” — Anna Hájková [28:53]
• “People don't exist on the black and white scheme. We are just people. We are Mackie and we are wonderful.” — Anna Hájková [32:45]

Important Timestamps

• Difference between Queer History & Homosexual History: 02:03–04:14
• The Silence in Survivor Testimonies: 04:36–08:13
• Homophobia in Testimonies and Interviews: 08:13–10:04
• Gad Beck's Memoir—Ambivalences: 10:16–13:57
• Freddy Hirsch—Heroism and Abuse: 13:57–16:37
• Queer Kinship & Margot Hooymann: 18:06–21:27
• Nate Leipziger—Sexual Violence and Agency: 21:45–25:23
• Anne Frank and Modern Censorship: 25:23–29:06
• Jerry Vrbach—Blackmail and Survival in State Socialism: 29:30–32:49
• Closing Reflections: 32:49–33:18

Summary Takeaways

• People Without History Are Dust breaks new ground by addressing an almost silenced dimension of Holocaust experience: queer desire and identity.
• Hájková exposes how entrenched homophobia—both during the Holocaust and in later recollection—has shaped whose stories have been told or erased.
• The episode demonstrates the necessity and challenge of writing nuanced, inclusive histories that do not shy away from complexity, contradiction, or ethical discomfort.
• These discussions are urgently relevant amidst present-day struggles over sexuality, memory, and censorship—reminding listeners how history shapes both the past and the present.

For further insight, listeners are strongly encouraged to read Anna Hájková’s book for its blend of scholarship, empathy, and its commitment to historical truth and inclusivity.