Podcast Summary: "The Babushka Phenomenon: Older Women and the Political Sociology of Ageing in Russia"

Podcast: New Books Network
Host: Dr. Miranda Melcher
Guest: Dr. Anna Shadrina
Date: December 4, 2025

Episode Overview

In this episode, Dr. Miranda Melcher interviews Dr. Anna Shadrina about her new book, The Babushka Phenomenon: Older Women and the Political Sociology of Ageing in Russia (UCL Press, 2025). The discussion paints a vivid picture of the evolving role, image, and lived experience of older women in post-Soviet Russia—a group often called "babushki." By focusing on this specific demographic, the episode unpacks larger social, cultural, and political transformations in Russian society, especially regarding family structures, welfare, gender expectations, and political agency after the collapse of Soviet socialism.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Origins and Motivations for the Book

[02:41–07:39]

• Shadrina’s background: Lecturer in sociology at University of Liverpool, originally from Belarus, with a keen interest in global aging and authoritarianism.
• Personal motivation: Grew up during the collapse of the Soviet Union; noticed her generation of women delaying marriage and childbearing—a shift not well covered in Western literature.
• Previous work: Researched single women and reproductive choices after socialism; natural progression to study women’s aging.

“I waited and waited for somebody to write about my part of the world. But eventually I realized that in order to read those books, I had to write them.” — Dr. Anna Shadrina [04:13]

2. Core Questions and Theoretical Focus

[04:52–07:39]

• Initial aim: Understand what happens to people shaped as citizens under the Soviet system as they age under new, radically different conditions.
• Key thesis: Women's aging in Russia illustrates the broader post-Soviet redistribution of social and economic responsibility—from the state to the family, with older women (babushki) playing a crucial role.

“The traditional reproductive pressure operates as this kind of rationalization that feels familiar... Being a grandmother is extremely important for older women because this is the most significant social role that society offers to Russian women of pensionable age.” — Dr. Anna Shadrina [06:52]

3. Research Methods and Challenges

[08:05–09:55]

• Biographical interviews: Conducted in Samara, Russia (2016), and with Russian women immigrants in the UK (2017).
• Methods included thematic analysis and "pen portraits"—condensed biographies to extract the main narrative logic.
• The conceptual breakthrough (the “babushka phenomenon”) emerged when forced to succinctly explain the project in a job interview.

“I compressed all my ideas into a couple of lines. And only then did I realize that the whole project was about what I now call the babushka phenomenon.” — Dr. Anna Shadrina [09:40]

4. Constructing and Challenging 'Old Age'

[10:40–14:00]

• Definition of old age: Fluid and context-dependent, often tied to pensionable age but also to self-presentation and societal expectations.
• In Russia, women of pensionable age are almost universally referred to as babushki—a term that denotes more than grandmotherhood; it implies a post-professional, post-sexual, and often marginalized social status.

“In Russia, women of pensionable age are commonly referred to as babushki... It is a specific performance of gender, age and class that members of Russian society read as a sign...” — Dr. Anna Shadrina [12:12]

• Unflattering cultural archetypes: The figure of Baba Yaga in folklore exemplifies patriarchal attempts to portray older women as witches or burdens.

5. The Shifting Structure of Retirement and Welfare

[14:46–17:36]

• Soviet legacy: Pensionable age for women was 55 (recently raised to 60). Soviet system promised a “well-deserved rest” at retirement, but post-Soviet reforms left many older people impoverished.
• Respect and value diminish with age in the current capitalist system; only active contributors to the economy retain status.

“You are seen as a respectable individual for as long as you contribute to the formal economy. But... pensioners in Russia are primarily seen as recipients of social benefits.” — Dr. Anna Shadrina [16:37]

6. Family Dynamics and the Status of Grandmothers

[18:05–23:17]

• Historical transitions: Pre-revolution, grandmothers (bolshukha) held significant household authority. Collectivization and WWII shifted power, leading to matrifocal families.
• Postwar: Grandmothers became domestic carers as mothers entered the workforce.
• Today: Grandmothers help younger women balance work and motherhood but lack recognition for their vital role.

“In Russia, there is a paradox. Grandmothers are essentially matriarchs, but they are denied the social status of important contributors to social reproduction.” — Dr. Anna Shadrina [22:41]

7. Norms for “Good” and “Bad” Babushki

[26:24–33:09]

• Good babushka: Expected to be invisible, self-sacrificing, and dedicated entirely to family care—essentially “commit symbolic suicide.”
• Bad babushka tropes: Older women who assert their needs or abandon these expectations are represented as monsters—either neglectful (Grandmother Frost) or overbearing (Grandmother’s Faust).
• Media representations borrow from folkloric and Western archetypes (e.g., witches, hags, “Baba Yaga”).

“If you want to come across as a good old woman, you would want to occupy as little social space as possible, to signal that your interests are no longer important.” — Dr. Anna Shadrina [27:45]

“Women who demand recognition for their unpaid labor are represented as monsters... I call this type of monster Grandmother Frost.” — Dr. Anna Shadrina [31:16]

8. Life Beyond Caregiving—Social and Personal Activities

[34:02–37:02]

• Lavochki (benches): Traditional gatherings of older women in urban courtyards serve as hubs for socializing and informal community control.
• Class divides: More privileged women engage in sports or organized activities; less privileged take part in council-offered classes or community activities.
• Many women cherish private space—crafts, gardening, church, crossword puzzles.

9. Sexuality, Relationships, and Autonomy

[37:31–40:22]

• Post-reproductive sexuality is stigmatized, but some women, especially those still employed, maintain romantic or sexual relationships.
• For many, age provides freedom from both romantic obligations and increased unpaid labor associated with men.

“Presenting themselves as deliberately post-sexual was a means to avoid ostracism in a culture that stigmatizes older women’s sexual desire…” — Dr. Anna Shadrina [39:32]

10. Political Voice and Everyday Resistance

[40:34–43:48]

• Older women are aware of intersectional marginalization but rarely identify their acts as “political.”
• Autocratic repression leads to caution and skepticism: open criticism is rare and may be dangerous, but some engage in local activism (e.g., organizing for building repairs).
• The regime actively depoliticizes citizens and punishes resistance.

“Autocratic regimes deliberately depoliticize citizens’ activities... and what is most important is that they severely punish resistance. So openly articulating criticism of the system carries existential threat.” — Dr. Anna Shadrina [42:24]

11. Future Directions

[44:36–45:27]

• Shadrina continues to research the intersection of welfare, geopolitics, and aging, currently focusing on older Ukrainian men and wartime social participation.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “In order to read those books, I had to write them.” — Dr. Anna Shadrina [04:13]
• “You are seen as a respectable individual for as long as you contribute to the formal economy.” — Dr. Anna Shadrina [16:37]
• “Grandmothers are essentially matriarchs, but they are denied the social status of important contributors to social reproduction.” — Dr. Anna Shadrina [22:41]
• “If you want to come across as a good old woman, you would want to occupy as little social space as possible.” — Dr. Anna Shadrina [27:45]
• “Women who demand recognition for their unpaid labor are represented as monsters... I call this type of monster Grandmother Frost.” — Dr. Anna Shadrina [31:16]
• “Presenting themselves as deliberately post-sexual was a means to avoid ostracism.” — Dr. Anna Shadrina [39:32]
• “Autocratic regimes deliberately depoliticize citizens’ activities... what is most important is that they severely punish resistance.” — Dr. Anna Shadrina [42:24]

Timestamps for Key Segments

• 02:41–07:39: Author’s background, motivations, and book’s genesis
• 08:05–09:55: Research methods and conceptual breakthrough
• 10:40–14:00: Defining old age and the social category of “babushka”
• 14:46–17:36: Retirement and shifting welfare expectations
• 18:05–23:17: Historical transformation of family roles and grandmothers' status
• 26:24–33:09: Good/bad babushka tropes in culture and media
• 34:02–37:02: Social activities and class divisions among older women
• 37:31–40:22: Sexuality, relationships, and autonomy in later life
• 40:34–43:48: Political agency, resistance, and the autocratic context
• 44:36–45:27: Shadrina’s future research directions

Tone and Style

The conversation is insightful, thoughtful, and laced with empathy for the complexities faced by older women in Russia. Dr. Shadrina combines scholarly precision with relatable narrative, often linking personal anecdotes to broader societal patterns. Dr. Melcher provides engaging prompts and responds with curiosity and respect, making the dense material accessible and compelling.

Conclusion

By revealing how the “babushka phenomenon” is both a burden and a survival strategy for older Russian women, this episode sharpens our understanding of post-Soviet society—showing how broad historical forces shape the most intimate aspects of daily life. Dr. Shadrina’s research underscores the tensions between invisibility and indispensability, care and autonomy, and the enduring consequences of structural change on gendered aging.