Podcast Summary: "Driving Productivity: Automation, Labor, and Industrial Development in the United States and Germany"

Podcast: New Books Network
Episode Guest: Anthony J. Knowles
Host: Jenna Pittman
Date: October 9, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode features an interview with Anthony J. Knowles about his new book, Driving Productivity: Automation, Labor, and Industrial Development in the United States and Germany (Brill, 2025). The conversation explores the comparative industrial histories of the US and German automotive industries, focusing on the role of automation, labor relations, and the institutional frameworks shaping industrial development. Through a sociological and historical lens, Knowles illuminates how different "value regimes" and social contexts have led to divergent paths in productivity and worker experiences.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Knowles' Research Journey and Archival Challenges

• International Archival Work:
  • Gathered data from archives in Bielefeld, Wolfsburg, and Frankfurt (Germany), and Detroit (USA).
  • Encounters noteworthy differences in archival access and transparency between companies and countries.
    • "The Volkswagen archives were a challenge because...I was not allowed to take pictures of anything. I could not save anything directly. All I could do was visually see the documents that were all written in German, by the way..." (03:44)
    • Ford provided data easily via a digital package, while German corporate archives were more restrictive.

Theoretical Frameworks and Book Argument

• Moving Beyond Generalities on Automation:
  • Critiques how discourse on automation often ignores specific social contexts and historical dynamics, focusing instead on broad, ungrounded predictions.
  • Introduces the concept of "value regimes" (drawing on David Harvey and Moishe Postone) to illuminate how business, labor, and government relations shape automation's trajectory differently in the US and Germany.
• Social Domination and Productivity Metrics:
  • Explores how capitalist pressures and social communication reinforce productivity imperatives.
    • "Because we are all embedded within the capitalist system, we are all put under pressures of certain imperatives and constraints...companies and workers...need to conform to certain productivity standards..." (07:06)
  • Uses Nicholas Luhmann’s systems theory to show how corporate self-praise of productivity subtly enforces industry-wide standards.

Rationale for US-Germany Comparison

• Comparative Perspective Encouraged by Academic Mentor:
  • Emphasizes unique value in comparing contexts with both common starting points and divergent trajectories due to different policy, labor, and business environments.
    • “Germany and the US are special...both started their auto industries around the same time...But also the way that both auto industries developed over the course of the 20th century is quite distinctive...” (15:26)
• Fordism vs. Craft Production:
  • Fordism in the US prioritized mass production, deskilling labor, and maximizing productivity.
  • German industry maintained skilled labor and union power, moving more slowly but protecting worker autonomy.
    • “...German workers were much more powerful in their...maintaining skills, maintaining knowledge that the company didn’t have...Fordism separated the knowledge from the worker...” (15:26)

Labor, Immigration, and Industrial Divergence

• Labor Landscape in Both Countries:
  • US: Growth marked by waves of immigration and internal migration, drawn by manufacturing jobs.
  • Germany: Importation of foreign ("guest") workers post-WWII to address productivity and labor needs.
    • “...one of my main theses...was the presumption that the history of Germany would consistently be more oriented towards social justice...There were also many instances where Germany appeared to betray their...claims to social justice...” (24:20)
  • Example: Use and later repatriation of Italian workers by Volkswagen during economic crisis.

Key Moments & Transformations in the Automotive Industry

• Movements and Disruptions:
  • The book centers on transitions rather than isolated events, such as:
    • Early divergence: Craft production (Germany) vs. Fordist mass production (US).
    • State Rationalization: US New Deal and unionization vs. Nazi Germany's forced modernization with Fordism and slave labor.
      • “Nazis were actually very interested in modernization and motorization...” (28:00)
    • Postwar Era: Germany “catches up” by institutionalizing Fordism and employing foreign labor; US enters “prosperity and automation hysteria.”
    • Late 20th Century: Transition from Fordism to lean production—different methods, similar productivity pressures.

The Centrality of the Auto Industry

• Why Automotives Matter:
  • Auto industry as a bellwether for larger trends in industrial capitalism and productivity norms.
    • "There's a reason why it's called Fordism...mass production...defined a whole way of life of both mass production and ultimately mass consumption." (32:16)
  • Automotive manufacturing’s ripple effect on adjacent industries, military capacity, and globalization.
  • Facilitates mass movement—goods, people, information—thus deeply entwined with the evolution of capitalism.

"Longue Durée" Approach

• Benefits of a Long-term Perspective:
  • Avoids myopic focus on single events, revealing the persistent drive for productivity and automation as structuring forces over a century.
  • "If we focus too much on those nitty gritty questions, we can lose the underlying drive that pushes all these developments forward and ultimately where they're oriented towards." (36:51)

Key Takeaways for Readers

• Rethinking Industrial Histories:
  • The comparative, context-sensitive approach shows that automation and productivity are not inevitable forces but are always mediated by local histories, labor power, and institutional settings.
  • Forces of convergence (global trends, technological standards) are balanced by forces of divergence (national policy, labor strategies, social values).
    • "There were forces of convergence that pushed the automakers to develop productivity in certain ways...At the same time, there are forces of divergence that also exist..." (41:10)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Corporate Archives:
  • "The Volkswagen archives were a challenge...I was not allowed to take pictures...I needed to learn a lot of German in order to use the archives at all.” — Anthony Knowles (03:44)
• On the Social Pressures of Productivity:
  • "Because we are all embedded within the capitalist system, we are all put under pressures of certain imperatives and constraints...need to conform to certain productivity standards...” — Anthony Knowles (07:06)
• On Competing Value Regimes:
  • “These are two varieties of capitalism that choose to address challenges in quite different ways...we can very easily see how they chose to...address challenges in very distinct ways.” — Anthony Knowles (15:26)
• On Guest Workers and Humanism:
  • "The treatment of the Italian guest workers is one example...there were also many instances where Germany appeared to betray their, the higher standards...claims to social justice...” — Anthony Knowles (24:20)
• On the Long-run Productivity Drive:
  • "The long drive towards increasing productivity and...automating more and more labor processes as a through line...should not be lost for the nitty gritty, you know, sales one year versus another year.” — Anthony Knowles (36:51)
• On the Balance of Convergence and Divergence:
  • "There were forces of convergence that pushed the automakers to develop productivity in certain ways...At the same time, there are forces of divergence...” — Anthony Knowles (41:10)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Host Introduction & Knowles’ Background: 01:29–03:21
• Archive Access & Research Challenges: 03:44–06:15
• Book’s Theoretical Framework: 07:06–14:04
• Why US and Germany?: 15:26–21:26
• Labor, Immigration, Unionization: 24:20–27:36
• Transformative Periods: 28:00–32:00
• Significance of Auto Industry: 32:16–34:59
• Long-term (Longue Durée) Perspective: 36:51–40:43
• Implications for Readers: 41:10–43:57
• Knowles’ Current & Future Projects: 44:23–45:55

Tone and Style

The episode maintains an academic but accessible tone, with Knowles providing detailed, structured explanations while occasionally reflecting personally on surprises and challenges in his research. The host, Jenna Pittman, guides the discussion with a tone of curiosity and engagement, inviting Knowles to elaborate on both technical and humanistic aspects of his comparative historical analysis.

For deeper understanding, consult Anthony J. Knowles' Driving Productivity: Automation, Labor, and Industrial Development in the United States and Germany for a full account of these themes.