B (4:02)

Oh, yeah, right.

A (4:04)

Um, so can you talk a little bit about that and. And why that. Because that is really important in this and. And sort of the role of that in the.

B (4:12)

Yeah, I mean, I think one of the things that's sort of fascinating, at least to me, about, you know, growing up in the city, growing up during the crack. Crack epidemic, which is what we called it. Right.

A (4:26)

And.

B (4:27)

And, you know, I had done a lot of research about. About the 80s while I was writing, writing this book. And one of the things I find kind of fascinating is that people were silly even now are, you know, circa 10 years ago, really were trying to get their head around, like, why did this become such a phenomena? Right? And like. And. But if you were, you know, you were in the hood, the way I grew up in the hood, it almost. It felt like. It felt more like Covid than it did. Do you know what I mean? Like, you could see it moving through your neighborhood, you know, getting people who you thought, like, you know, no way could. That's a regular guy. That's my neighbor, which is kind of touched on repeatedly in my novel, that these were sort of regular people and trying to create a scenario, hopefully, that I help understand. Help readers understand the allure of it. Like, it's promise of crack.

A (5:39)

So.

B (5:40)

And the community's response to that, which is always. I mean, we Americans, we are strange people. There's always this sort of moralistic undertone, like, ooh, that bad thing happened to you. That's because you bad girl. I know you did that. And you weren't going to church and yum, yum, yum.

A (6:01)

So that would never happen. To me.

B (6:04)

Exactly. So I. You know, so there's also. I was sort of. I'm very interested in that, especially since I feel like we still do that. You know, we still have this when bad things occur. We sort of think, oh, you did that because you did something bad. So, yeah.

A (6:28)

I want to talk about your characters, but one of the characters, I really love, Twin a lot. Right. And part of it is that idea that she talks exactly about what you're talking about, but how she chooses to deal with it, to me is fascinating.

B (6:43)

Right.

A (6:44)

Um. So, yeah, so can you talk a bit about, like, I don't know, like, was this. Maybe I should ask this to get to the. Like, was this a novel where, like, how do you. Like, when you write or when you wrote this novel, was it. This character is talking to me. I know I want to play something in the 80s. Like, how did you sort of start and come to this?

B (7:02)

You know, I feel like it's funny because in my novel's first iteration, Twin is a super minor character, and sort of the more I wrote about her, the more prominent she became. And I sometimes think about Twin like, you know, she's not the hero you want, but she's the hero you got, you know, like, you know, and she's. She reminds me of a certain kind of, you know, that person that grows up in your neighborhood that's, like, incredibly brazen. And you wonder, like, what do they do at night? You know, like, how do they spend their time? And just sort of being someone who. I don't have that kind of life. I'm actually, like, I'm a writer, which, with the exception of Hemingway, we, as a demographic, we are rather boring people. You know, we sit in our offices and play make believe.

A (8:10)

We're like, yay.

B (8:14)

And so she kind of roams and walks and talks and is brave in a way that I'm not. So she's like, for me, this sort of inspirational, aspirational character and gets to say things that of course I would never say and is. And I also. I think I was also drawn to her as a person because she's very much compromised. She's not perfect. Right. I mean, she sort of realizes that what her family is up to is very much a part of the problem. And so I like that she's a character that seems to be complicated and yet integral. Right in that, you know, that sometimes when we think about our heroes, we sort of sand off the edges, and they're just the most wonderful, kind, da, da, da people. And she's and she's not. She's very much a product of her environment, the way we all are.

A (9:25)

Yeah. Yeah. And I, like, she has this lovely, complicated relationship with her cousin. Right. Like, there's this. There's the sweetness throughout it that I think sometimes we forget. We. We choose to forget about. Like, when you. Especially when you talk about this idea that we're like, oh, that would never be me. Right. I would never be that way. And it's important to see that there's. There's these. All these different sides, and you can't just be like, well, I don't. You know, I don't like everything about that or anything about that person versus. Yeah. So I love that. How about your other care? Can you talk a little bit about, you know, so twins in there. You mentioned Wanda and Anita. You have, like, the pastor. Like, can you talk a little bit about some of those characters and. Yeah. And who you have in your story?

B (10:11)

Yeah. So, you know, I mean, I do think, you know, without the. Without the correct problem, I think I'm probably most like Anita, you know, like. Like, you think, you know, you. You make this assumption that if you. If you just play by the rules and you do everything right, and, you know, you do have a real job and you pay your bills. Yeah. I mean, sometimes they're behind, but, you know, con it. Kung fu as all. But things will more or less work out. And I feel like I'm kind of obviously very invested in Anita because that's not true of her. For her. And then Wanda, of course, is that. I mean, without naming any names, like, Wanda is that girlfriend. You know, that girlfriend. We all have that girlfriend. Like, you call on them and you're like, oh, she gonna give me so much trouble. Well, hello, Will I need it?

A (11:12)

Wanda.

B (11:13)

Because she's the only. I mean, she's also the only person who doesn't judge Anita. Right. I mean, she doesn't. And sometimes that's the friend you need, the one who you tell your troubles to. And they don't say, this is your fault. So. Yeah. And then Carl, you know, I was looking at the 80s, and I'm sure it's true now, but, you know, there was an Al Sharpton in every major city in the 80s, and we needed him, you know, because we were living in this moment. This is after the civil rights we've all been told, you know, Bill Cosby's about to come onto the stage, and it's like, it's all better now. And in black neighborhoods.

A (12:02)

We were like, really?

B (12:04)

I don't know.

A (12:05)

I don't know about that.

B (12:06)

And the Al Sharpton's was like, that's right. It's not over. It's not over by a long shot. In Dallas, where I grew up, his name was John Wally Price. And you know, these sort of outsized personalities and they, they listened to us. They didn't. They're there. It. And you know, not all of their answers were the right answers. But you kind of realize that especially since I think so much of the 80s is sort of like kind of leaving everybody behind. You know, like if you weren't on Wall street and your last name wasn't Reagan, it was like, next, next. And so having kind of sometimes preachers, sometimes not, sort of straddling this sort of religion and politics and saying, we are still here to try to help you as best we can. We are still here because we know even though it's gotten a lot more complicated and we're not talking about sitting at the back of the bus and the water fountains, but there's still this incredible systemic racism that happens and we see it and so we're gonna try to help. I'm sort of fascinated by those characters, these sort of preachers that don't have a church, you know.

A (13:39)

Yeah, I think that was something I was gonna ask you about too, because like the, the church or the. Or I don't know if the symbolism of the church plays a big role in this too. Right. This idea that we lost our church, our church burnt down and that becomes a big thing, but we still have to create this community and how do we create that community? And so, yeah, I was wondering about that. I don't know if I have a question about that, but I think that's fascinating. Like when you say the pastor without the church and who always also has ideas to move beyond his position.

B (14:14)

Right, right, right. Well, it's also kind of interesting, especially in America. The church for a very long time is obviously a place for worship and a place for, you know, sort of contemplate higher power and blah, blah, blah. But it for black people, it is a political space. Right. And it's. And it's also like, you know, for a very long time was a one stop shop. It was the place where you could get a meal. It was, you know, a very long time, a place where you could have someone like write a letter on your behalf or read a letter for you. And sort of not having that space the way we did in the past does have societal, political ramifications for black Folks. And so it is a story about that. Like, what happens when the church no longer occupies the space it normally did in the public square.

A (15:20)

Yeah. Another thing I thought for me was really interesting, especially coming from like, this background of teaching and teaching in high school is. And growing up in the 80s with this. This. This push for like. Well, it was like a push to call black boys super predators. Right. Like this idea. And so you have that going on in here too, like the criminal justice system stuff where you have these two boys who look very. Right. Like, one is like, tiny and small and ends up. Right. I mean, it's. No, I mean, it's at the beginning of the book, so ends up murdered and the other one is like this boy who. It doesn't matter what he does, they're going to come after him. And so, yeah. Was this something that you. Can you talk a little bit about that or that in the book? Was it like a conscious choice or was it something that kind of morphed as you wrote?

B (16:06)

I mean, it's certainly. Daryl and Tyrone were always huge figures in. In my story. Because, I mean, because, you know, and I think for that I really drew on my own childhood because, you mean, we parent very differently now. But in, you know, when I grew up, you know, your parents were like, you know, get out of here. Like, you know, inbox relays we're still alive, Rebecca.

A (16:34)

I know. I always. I am just like, I always tell my students, I'm like, I'm so glad I'm not alive when you were alive. But I can't believe the things that I was able to do that I'm glad is not on video, you know,

B (16:44)

like, the things that we did. I'm just like, how do I have both arms and both legs? And there is this kind of like, you know, roaming around and. And they all. I mean, I don't know if this is true of my childhood, but I certainly make it a true in. In my story that both Daryl and Tyrone, even though they're quote unquote, different, different boys because they go to the same church. And when the church burns down, like, inevitably, it. It. It unhouses both of them. Right? And. And so, um, you know, there are. I have cousins like this who again, will go unnamed, but, you know, they always seem to be in trouble.

A (17:37)

They did.

B (17:37)

They did. And, you know, and my mother is talking to my auntie and they're like, girl, he is always in trouble. And it's like, I know he used to be such a good kid. And Darryl's Kind of based on that. And because, you know, I am a colleague slash friend slash related to Darryl. I can see he's a good kid. Of course he's a good kid. I mean, he's my friend. And we used to like, splash together in the bathtub. And so listening to these parents be like, oh, my God. And they're always getting snatched up. Like, I wasn't able to. To see that I'm more like Tyrone, like, this is my friend and I want to help, you know. And of course, like, you know, hopefully, like all stories, you know, don't let a good.

A (18:34)

Don't let kids come up with their own idea.

B (18:37)

But the stuff we came up with, like, I've got a plan.

A (18:42)

It's like, promise it'll work well. And I do love that. Daryl's mom throughout. Like, Wanda loves her son and really believes in her son. Right. Because you could go in many directions with that. But like, like have, you know, and so you kind of see that and you see how that relation, the importance of that as you go through the book.

B (19:02)

Right, right, right, right.

A (19:05)

Can you talk a little bit about kind of the structure of this book? You put it in, like, five different parts. Was that. Can you talk a little bit about that choice? Or maybe it was a choice you made long ago, like, you know. Yeah, I'm sure it didn't start that way.

B (19:24)

Nothing starts the way you think is. You know, nothing ends the way you think it's going to. I mean, I think that it always started with Tyrone's body being found. Like, that. I have to say that never changed. The circumstance of that happening changed greatly. But that was always the beginning. And I think more or less, it always was in five parts. I think what I really changed was just like a humongous change, was that I realized that this was a story about the women. Like, it was. And it was. I wouldn't have said it, but it was the part that I most enjoyed. It was the part that I ended up, you know, when you ugly cry, like, where I would ugly cry? Like, it was the part where I laughed the most. And I.

A (20:25)

It was.

B (20:27)

And I thought, I don't know why I'm fighting that. Like, why am I fighting my own joy? Like, that's dumb. So I ended up sort of taking out probably like 150 or so pages and just replacing them. Like, really letting these women, like, just unfurling their lives, you know, Like, I. I have no idea, like, why I struggled, but it was like, actually, I do like twin. I like Her a lot. Why am I denying myself this. This potentially wonderful relationship? And so it really came from that. Just sort of not having very clear, preconceived notions as to what I wanted this book to be. And I think we all feel this as writers. You get to this place where it's like, when you first get started, it can be anything. And that blank page can be either filled with dread or it could be exciting. But you can, you know, I could turn around, write about a bunch of white people. You can't stop me. I'm.

A (21:37)

I mean, I'm on a tear.

B (21:40)

And then you kind of get to a place in your writing where you're like, okay, I've got four walls now, and I've got a roof and put upstairs and shit. I have no kitchen, you know, where you, you, you have to kind of suddenly make choices because of what you've made. And I think as a writer, that's what happened to me. I suddenly had to make these huge choices because of what I had written, and I think probably longer than I should. I held on like, no, no, no, this is the plan. But this is the plan.

A (22:19)

No, no, it's the plan. I have an outline, Damn it, I have an outline. Yes, like that, 100%. This is the way it was supposed to go. Exactly.

B (22:34)

Respect my outline.

A (22:35)

They're like, nope, we don't want to go that way.

B (22:37)

Like, no, no.

A (22:41)

Can you talk, like, along those lines? Like your POV in this? Can you talk a little bit about that? Like, and, you know, like, sort of thinking about, like that, that, like. Yeah. Did you always choose? Yeah. Can you. I'll just ask. Talk about that? Yeah.

B (22:56)

Oh, yes, I did. I mean, I am. Which I, I. Which will might sound a little weird, but I'm a huge fan of, of 18th century literature. Like, girl, Tom Jones is legit. Good, like, legit. Boswell is crazy. And one of the things I like most about 18th century literature is that those third persons have opinions, right? Like, they, you know, the 19th century makes this, like, you know what you see? No strings. There are no strings. But 18th century literature really is like, there is an author. I have an opinion. This is what I think of these folks. And I am going to tell you a story. And so my POV isn't quite like that, but it has some of those trappings. And I think one of the things I find really interesting about justice and when I say justice, American style justice and our court system is that it is storytelling. It is about who has the better story. And we, you know, we gussy it up with, like, okay, but the evidence and this and that and. But really it's a story. And then you asked a jury, do you buy said story? And so I wanted very much a third person that could do that. And I also wanted. I mean, that's twins. I tell stories. We hear stories. And this. I mean, this is what community is. It's this sort of collective storytelling that happens. It's individual stories sort of coming together. You know, even when we think about. Even when we think about a particular incident, like a murder, right? There's all of these stories happening, like, off stage that got these two people together in order to make what went down. What went down. And I'm trying to. The Shape of Dreams is very much trying to do that. How exactly did this go down? Like, how did these two people meet on a sidewalk together? And it's like, in order to do that, you have to basically do the equivalent of sit down and let me tell you the story. And so there you go.

A (25:36)

So I was talking, I think, Joe Nesbo last week, and he kind of said simply, like, we all know the story, right? We've heard this, like, this story. It's a story you hear over and over. It's how you tell it, right? And so, like, what you're saying is that same thing. It's like you. I'm going to tell it in a way so you can have a better understanding and maybe compassion for some of these people that you didn't have it for before. And it's important, too, right? Can we talk about Whitney Houston and Star Search? Because, like, again, like, Whitney is so important. Like, Whitney is like. Comes in here and people give Whitney crap. But I'm like, whitney Houston. Like, you cannot give that. Like, leave that woman alone.

B (26:17)

Leave her alone.

A (26:18)

Right? Like, I'm like, you don't understand, like, Whitney. And, like, I mean, it's the kind. It's the way I feel about, you know, many artists of that time. Like, she. Yeah, she got like, yeah, let's talk. Like, I could talk, but. Yeah, but Whitney plays a role in this, right?

B (26:34)

Whitney is huge. I mean, Whitney was. I mean, we're the same age. You know, it. Whitney was everything.

A (26:41)

She always like. And then everybody's like, oh, that Bobby Brown ruined her. I'm like, whatever, Leave Whitney alone. Leave Whitney.

B (26:47)

Exactly. Exactly. And, you know, I. This is a horrible thing to admit, but it's totally true. I was like, the last. I was just all by myself on the line. Like, Whitney never did drugs. I Don't understand why y' all are messing with her. She was fine. She's fine. She's fine. I want to hear that. It's Whitney. I mean, I think that. I mean, I was. I mean, it's more than. She's just America's, you know, what do they use to call her? America's princess or something like that? You know, she also was. And this is Star Search and all of it. There's a real, you know, we sort of now lament the notion of American exceptionalism, you know, and. But I do think there's a certain way you can think about being black in America. That that is all we do is actually all we know is American exceptionalism. Because just being a dentist doesn't cut it. You have to somehow come from this place where you, you know, either don't have the proper education or you don't get the proper opportunities and so on and so forth, and yet this miracle can happen. And all of a sudden, you know, everyone on the planet knows the words to the Greatest Love of All.

A (28:15)

As they should.

B (28:16)

As they should. We know it. Our children are our future. You know it. So, you know, and when you are a kid, or at least when I was a kid, I completely bought all of that. I mean, I. It was something that, you know, my sister, who sang quite a bit and did pageants and talent shows and stuff like that, you know, the highest compliment she ever got called was, she's little Whitney. You know, like, she's little Whitney. And that meant something that was currency in my neighborhood, right? You could. You could have. Some extraordinary thing happened to you, and not only do you lift yourself, you lift your entire family. You lift. You lift your community. And so she's very much. She's a symbol of that in this story.

A (29:21)

No, I love that because I do. I was like, it's the perfect person to choose. And I feel like I will just say, like, my daughter has this. I love watching her talk about music because she's a music person, but she looks at, like, Whitney Houston in not the way that we have. She does not care about that kind of downfall stuff, right? Like, it's the same with, like, Michael Jackson. Like, all of these people were like, Michael Jackson's her end all be all. And then she, you know, she's got all. She's into whatever, but she's like, I don't care about those. That narrative didn't happen when I was around. So she can. Right? Like, so I find that really. Like, so I find Whitney is one of Those fascinating things, because you've got her at this time when the narrative, right before the narrative that people tell. And now we're in this space where at least for some people, it's like, I don't care about that narrative. Like, this is the Whitney that I know. This Whitney. And she can sing, right? Right, she can sing. Yeah. Yeah.

B (30:20)

And it's, you know, and, and, and that, you know, we did, we, we looked up to her and, and it was, you know, she seemed to almost, you know, if you play your cards right and luck goes your way, it was like. And this is, this is the roadmap, right? This, this is how black people can take a step, right? It's, it, it's seductive. And, and she seduced us. We liked it.

A (30:52)

The other thing I think is really interesting. I mean, I could talk about like Whitney all day, but the other thing I think was interesting is this thinking about like going back to the justice system and thinking about how, when the justice system doesn't work, what you need, what, what communities do to try and make it work for them, which sometimes succeeds and sometimes fails. Right. And yeah, can you talk a little bit about that too?

B (31:21)

Yeah, I mean, I think the thing that we, I mean, I think actually interestingly enough, we do it less now, given who I think Americans in general have a better sense of like, so who appointed that judge? Uh huh. Okay. But I think certainly in a not so distant past is that we endowed our justice system with a kind of objectivity that I think they never possessed, but I certainly think we did. And you know, when you talk about communities that don't have money, you know, Wanda, you know, listening to this, to this, to this lawyer, like, all you need is this money and realizing she does not have it. And that lack of. Without money, there is no justice. Right? Like that's her one to one. I mean, while she's spinning out, like, okay, maybe I can get another job, or maybe I could do this, or maybe I could. It's like without that money, there is no justice. Right? And what that means, that hard truth and what that means for certain communities, right. There's always going to be justice denied because we do not have the means to pay for it, which is saying bad things about justice. But I do think that's true.

A (32:56)

And sometimes you are not around or you are not able to, then when justice does come about, you might not be there to witness it or be part of that. Right? So you can work for things as hard as you can work for it and work for It. But that doesn't mean you get to, like, Right. See it happen. Right. So what do you, like, do you have. I don't know, a hope for this book? Like, what do you want people, like, you know, like, what do you want people to get from this? This isn't, like, happy, happy, fun times. And I don't mean that, like, every book should be happy, happy, fun times. Right. Like, there's, like, some deep stuff going on. Thank you. Right. There is some, like. I mean, and there's beauty in it as well, but, like.

B (33:44)

Yeah.

A (33:44)

Like, what are you hoping when people read this, they take from it? Or.

B (33:49)

I mean. Yeah, no, no, I. I see what you're saying. Although I have to say, clearly, I'm all by myself. I've just given it up. But I think there's some parts that are hilarious.

A (33:58)

But.

B (34:01)

But I. I think what I want people to take away is, is that these people who lead complicated lives who are compromised in really real ways, like, they are deserving of justice, too. You know what I mean? And it is a happy ending. Happy ending. If you think about the fact that Wanda and Anita get off crack, that is happy. You know, there's a story where that doesn't happen and that Daryl is safe and. And. And you can, you know, he's gotten his life kind of back on track. You end that, you know, these two mothers and Daryl, and you can. You can sort of see, like, okay, I think they're gonna be okay, you know, and, no, they didn't win the lottery. And there's hope, though.

A (35:03)

There's. You end with hope.

B (35:05)

There's hope there. There's. There's real hope there. And, you know, no, Superman didn't come and save them. It's twin who just has a whole bag of tricks in her closet. But she was able to give help, real help at just the right moment. And I think that that is. I think we can kind of get into a place where we are happy or at least gain a kind of solace that, like, not letting, you know, the perfect be an enemy of the good and kind of like, you know, this. I do think this community will come out of it. And I think by the end, you can sort of see the shape of that. It's not their dreams. Right. I mean, because Laura wanted to be little Whitney. But it is. It is. It's something that feels like it's on the right road. And so I hope people, I don't know, happy for my characters.

A (36:11)

No, I do. I do. I do think there's Hope in it. Right. And I guess maybe the idea, too, that, like, sometimes you do things like you're saving up for things or whatever it is that you. And you have one idea for it, but you realize that that is. There's a better way or a dip. Right? Like, there's that. Right. Like, so I think that this is my goal, but in actuality, after being in this space, I've realized I have a different goal. And that's okay. And it's okay, right?

B (36:37)

And it's okay to say, yeah, I'm gonna change. Like, I'm gonna change, and it's okay. And it's not, you know, and it's. It's not becoming a pop star. But this is. You know, Twin obviously had very different ideas as to what she thought she was gonna do with herself, but I think she does save three people, you know, and that's worthy. You know, that's worthy. So, yeah.

A (37:09)

So the book is out now. Um, so I'm gonna ask you my final question, which is promotion. So what's going on with the book? Anything else you're working on, like, self promote away?

B (37:19)

Okay. So, yeah.

A (37:20)

Bye. Bye. Bye.

B (37:23)

I am the. Yes, the book is out, and you can, you know, get it online and in stores and. And all that good stuff. It's actually. Actually at the Strand for those of you who live in New York City at McNally's. And of course, I'm working on something else. I'm sure every time you ask a writer this question, they're like, no, I

A (37:49)

don't want to talk about it right now.

B (37:51)

I'm going to be just that person.

A (37:53)

No, I don't want to talk about it right now.

B (37:56)

I've learned my lesson. I've done that. That was this book. I thought it was going to be something, then it turned into something else.

A (38:04)

And you're like, damn it. I told all these people.

B (38:07)

I told all these people. So I, you know, aha. Fool me once, not gonna fool me again, a la George Bush.

A (38:16)

So, yeah. Awesome. Well, April again, April Reynolds, who wrote the Shape of Dreams, thank you so much for talking with me on New Books Network.

B (38:24)

Thank you so much, Rebecca. To realize the future America needs, we understand what's needed from us to face each threat head on. We've earned our place in the fight for our nation's future. We are Marines. We were made for this.