Podcast Summary: New Books Network – Ashlyn Hand, "Prioritizing Faith: International Religious Freedom and U.S. Foreign Policy"

Date: February 8, 2026

Host: Dr. Miranda Melcher
Guest: Dr. Ashlyn Hand

Episode Overview

In this episode, Dr. Miranda Melcher interviews Dr. Ashlyn Hand about her groundbreaking book Prioritizing International Religious Freedom and US Foreign Policy (NYU Press, 2025). Together, they trace the evolution and consequences of the United States’ efforts to prioritize religious freedom as a foreign policy objective. The discussion explores the origins of the International Religious Freedom Act, its practical implementation across multiple administrations, internal government tensions, and its mixed record abroad—in places like China, Vietnam, and Saudi Arabia. Dr. Hand provides rare insights into the political, bureaucratic, and personal dynamics underpinning decades of US policy.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Motivation and Background for the Book

• Origins: Hand was inspired by a story of US troops in Saudi Arabia being forced to hide their religion—an illustration of the clash between American values and geopolitical interests.

  • "What happens when America's values and America's interests collide and how do we reconcile, if we reconcile a professed commitment to religious freedom with the compromises that are demanded by geopolitics?" — Dr. Ashlyn Hand [02:56]

• Book’s Scope: Explores competing beliefs about religion’s place in politics, the unique US religious history, executive power, and the responsibility (if any) of the US toward religious believers globally.

• Cases Covered: Focuses on Uyghur Muslims in China, evangelicals in Vietnam, agnostics in Saudi Arabia, among others.

2. Origins and Passage of the International Religious Freedom Act (IRFA)

• Three Key Currents Converge (1990s):

  • Evangelical and Jewish Advocacy: Evangelicals and Jewish communities formed global advocacy and relief networks, pressing not just for private but public religious rights.
  • International Human Rights Movement: An existing human rights framework (e.g., Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 18) already enshrined religious freedom.
  • Post-Cold War Politics: Collapse of the USSR created a vacuum and opportunity; bipartisan and multi-faith coalitions pushed the US to make religious freedom a policy priority.

  "By the 1990s, these networks were poised to influence policies in some new ways... It was evangelicals, Catholics, Jewish advocacy groups, and other human rights activists that formed a coalition." — Dr. Ashlyn Hand [07:20]

3. Content and Controversies within the IRFA

• Main Provisions:

  • Created the Ambassador-at-Large for International Religious Freedom.
  • Established the Office of International Religious Freedom (in State Dept.).
  • Instituted the 'Countries of Particular Concern' (CPC) system, triggering policy responses ranging from diplomacy to sanctions.

• Critiques:

  • Effectiveness: Some said it wasn’t strong enough; others wanted automatic, harsher responses.
  • Legitimacy: Critics worried the US was imposing its beliefs (cultural imperialism), possibly privileging Christianity, or acting hypocritically.

  "Underneath there were a lot of debates on how the United States should go about this, if it should be doing it at all." — Dr. Ashlyn Hand [11:58]

4. Presidential Administration Approaches

Clinton (Institutionalization)

• Last of an 'old-guard' that avoided religious issues in diplomacy.
• Pressured by Congress and advocacy to institutionalize religious freedom.

Bush (Personalization)

• Made “America’s first freedom” a public priority, influenced by his own evangelicalism.
• Framed religious liberty in the broad context of the war on terror—which introduced complexities (terrorism vs. religious freedom).

Obama (Internationalization)

• Rooted policy in international law/human rights frameworks rather than US tradition.
• Focused on international agreements (e.g., Article 18, UDHR).

"If I kind of zoom out, I would say that Clinton institutionalized religious freedom, Bush really personalized religious freedom, and then Obama worked to internationalize it." — Dr. Ashlyn Hand [15:17]

5. How Foreign Policy Priorities Influenced Religious Freedom Actions

• China:

  • Clinton initially tied trade to human rights, but economic interests quickly took precedence.
  • Bush raised religious cases but struggled as China used 'counterterrorism' narratives to justify repression.

  • "When push comes to shove...when the implementation is where rubber meets the road." — Dr. Ashlyn Hand [16:56]

• Vietnam:

  • Rare case where US had leverage—Vietnam needed normalized relations and access to global markets.
  • CPC designation spurred significant reforms, including releasing prisoners and new legal recognition for religious groups.
  • "Almost overnight, this was successful...hundreds of prisoners who had been jailed for their religious activities were released." — Dr. Ashlyn Hand [29:39]
  • Success proved fleeting; lasting change requires ongoing pressure.

• Saudi Arabia:

  • Strategic necessity constantly weighed against religious freedom violations.
  • Religious repression acknowledged, but designating Saudi Arabia a CPC was delayed to avoid damaging the partnership.
  • After terror attacks affected the Kingdom directly, some openness to reform developed.

  • "Here, the United States was dealing with a close strategic partner...but whose government is also a theocracy that tightly restricts religion." — Dr. Ashlyn Hand [33:17]

6. Bureaucratic Dynamics: Purists vs. Pragmatists

• Purists: Advocated for strong, unequivocal stands—more, faster CPC designations and strict sanctions.

• Pragmatists: Sought incremental progress, relationship-building, and quiet diplomacy.

  • Each camp found a home in different parts of IRF’s institutional setup (e.g., Office vs. watchdog commission).
  • Tensions could be severe, especially when broader diplomatic goals (trade, security) were on the table.

  "Hesitation, I think, often looked like complicity [to the Purists]." — Dr. Ashlyn Hand [21:18]

  "The way that the act itself was set up almost pulled these two sides apart in some ways." — Dr. Ashlyn Hand [22:05]

• Example - Saudi Arabia:

  • Purists demanded CPC designation: “Freedom of religion does not exist in Saudi Arabia” [24:07].
  • Pragmatists pushed back: “The amount that it would cost to designate Saudi Arabia as a CPC would derail all these other priorities.”

7. Evolving Policy in the Trump and Biden Administrations

• Trump: Elevated IRF, hosting influential annual global summits; critics charged politicization.

• Biden: Re-framed IRF within broader human rights/multilateralism; some advocates feared IRF would lose distinct visibility.

  "I don't think we are in a period where there's a lot of agreement on what is happening now...and what to do regarding international religious freedom." — Dr. Ashlyn Hand [36:33]

8. Memorable Quotes & Moments

• On the emotional and difficult passage of IRFA:

  "It was surprising to me that even after decades, the passion and kind of the strong debates about bureaucracy were still as strong as they were." — Dr. Ashlyn Hand [38:03]

• Hope for progress:

  "I really was surprised how often progress came about when people could start by naming their shared points of agreement...you can kind of set disagreements and partisan politics aside briefly for searching for an answer for this kind of more common struggle." — Dr. Ashlyn Hand [39:07]

Notable Timestamps

• 01:51 – Ashlyn Hand introduces herself and explains why she wrote the book.
• 05:20 – How evangelicals, Jewish advocacy, and the post-Cold War period converged to create the IRFA.
• 09:45 – Criticisms and debates about the IRFA upon passage.
• 13:21 – Comparative overview: Clinton, Bush, Obama handling of religious freedom.
• 16:50 – Case study: China and the realities of implementing religious freedom policy.
• 20:21 – Bureaucratic realities: Purists vs. Pragmatists.
• 26:09 – Case study: Vietnam—when IRFA “worked.”
• 33:13 – Case study: Saudi Arabia—navigating religious repression and strategic interests.
• 35:07 – Trump and Biden era policy shifts.
• 37:42 – Behind-the-scenes surprises during research.

Conclusion and Further Work

• Hand describes the difficulty and persistent passion behind IRFA policy.
• Progress in this field often comes from unexpected coalitions and shared outrage about abuses.
• Dr. Hand plans a second book studying pluralism in America’s history and its role in foreign engagement, moving beyond the legislative lens of her first book.

This episode provides a nuanced, behind-the-scenes look at America’s evolving commitment—rhetorical and real—to religious freedom globally, highlighting the moral, strategic, and bureaucratic complexity of translating “first freedom” into practical diplomacy.