Podcast Summary
Podcast: New Books Network
Host: GP Gottlieb
Guest: Aviva Rubin (Author of White: A Novel)
Episode Date: November 25, 2025
Book Featured: White: A Novel (RE: Books, 2024)
Episode Overview
This episode centers on Aviva Rubin’s debut novel, White. The host, GP Gottlieb, speaks with Rubin about the novel's genesis, the complex world it portrays of white supremacy and activism in 1990s Canada, and its deeply conflicted protagonist, Sarah Cartel. The conversation delves into the novel’s inspirations, historical context, psychological themes, and the challenge of representing nuanced characters drawn from hate-driven worldviews.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
Origins and Inspiration of the Novel
- Activist Roots: Rubin explains that the book is inspired by her own involvement in anti-fascist and anti-racist activism in Toronto during the 1990s (03:12), specifically mentioning the Jewish Feminist Antifascist League (JAFOFFEL).
- Marginality: Rubin was struck by how both anti-fascists and white supremacists were seen as marginalized troublemakers, leading to an exploration of the "notion of marginality and who is doing what on the margins of society." (03:53)
- First Scenes and Research: The novel opens with the protagonist, Sarah, in crisis on a train, being taken for psychiatric care (01:49). Rubin drew inspiration from real white supremacist groups in Canada like the Heritage Front and historical figures such as Ernst Zündel.
Protagonist and Characterization
- Sarah Cartel’s Roots: Sarah, who grows up in a white supremacist family, is not based directly on anyone but is dedicated to a friend who infiltrated such groups. Rubin uses Sarah to explore the question: "What happens when you grow up in a family of haters and what do you do with that?" (04:36)
- Complex Family Dynamics: The novel’s central relationship unfolds between Sarah and her therapist after her breakdown. Sarah’s journey is one of reckoning with her upbringing and trying to extricate herself from internalized hate.
The Church of Purity and Grandfather’s Impact
- Evil Character: Rubin emphasizes that Sarah’s grandfather, the founder of the Church of Purity, is the only truly "categorically evil" character, driven by deep-seated hatred, particularly after his wife leaves him for an African man (07:10, 07:41).
- Disappointment in Followers: Despite his rhetoric, he stands frustrated by the lack of zeal among his followers—"he sort of spouts a lot about these beliefs but is unwilling to really stand up for them." (08:25)
- Commentary on Contemporary Hate: Rubin draws parallels to the current era, noting a “huge amount of permission granted” to hate speech today, unlike the mid-1990s when "even if you felt that way, you didn’t speak it out loud." (09:30)
Satire, Indoctrination, and Abuse
- Blame List Satire: A memorable scene involves the grandfather blaming Jews for an absurdly broad list of ills—including "communism, both world wars, the Federal Reserve banking system, homosexuality, abortion, and the United Nations"—which Rubin frames as a tongue-in-cheek exaggeration found in real extremist rhetoric (10:28).
- Abuse and Therapy: Sarah’s therapy is depicted as alien, playing the "spot the abuse" game and struggling to identify her upbringing as abusive: "Cartels don’t do therapy…The idea she’s forced into this despite herself." (12:18)
- Family Fragmentation: Uncle Carl leaves the community but keeps his ideology, while other family members, like her aunt, become politically opposed, illustrating the varying responses to the grandfather’s tyranny (13:28).
Canadian Context and Historical Truths
- Canadian White Supremacy: Contrary to stereotypes of Canadian niceness, Rubin unveils a history of entrenched antisemitism and white supremacy in Canada. She recounts Sarah’s research uncovering a 1938 Life magazine interview with a Canadian advocating for Jewish concentration camps (17:29).
- Historical Continuity: Rubin notes: “That kind of really, like, heartfelt antisemitism is long standing in this country.” (18:04)
- Surprise Factor: Both host and Rubin express shock about the scale and depth of Canadian involvement in racist movements, which often goes unrecognized (19:00).
Freedom of Speech and Truth
- Legal and Social Shifts: The conversation touches on Canadian Supreme Court decisions about hate speech and the contemporary complexity of free speech debates (19:43).
- Danger of False News: Rubin laments the modern proliferation of “complete and utter fabrications” and the erosion of shared reality: "This is the problem now is that we have lost truth...there were some things that were not as, you know, truthful as they could be, but now…we're even having a conversation about people's right to say things that are complete and utter fabrications." (21:02)
Moral Relativism & Sarah’s Infiltration
- Self-sacrifice and Deception: Sarah’s immersion in a white supremacist group includes dating a man who idolizes Timothy McVeigh. Rubin delves into Sarah’s psyche: “She doesn’t believe she deserves to live in the world she’s trying to create…she’s always misrepresenting herself to the people around her.” (23:19)
- Psychological Toll: This sense of undeserved place and moral self-loathing drives Sarah’s willingness to endure pain for the mission of infiltration.
Hope, Polarization, and Looking Forward
- Hopeful for Canada: Rubin expresses "absolute" hope for Canada, despite increasing polarization: "The country is very polarized, like, more polarized than I feel I’ve ever experienced it in my lifetime." (25:13, 27:17)
- Contrasts with the US: She notes differences in political culture—less “big, huge show” and spectacle—and observes that hate-driven political organizing in Canada lacks the forceful figure and showmanship found in the US (27:36).
- Current Projects: Rubin is shifting towards a new novel, "a #MeToo meets late coming-of-age" mystery centered on a neurodivergent, 57-year-old math genius in Pittsburgh (28:05).
Memorable Quotes & Moments
-
On Marginality and Activism:
“It was almost like our group was perceived to be almost as kind of fringe as the white supremacists and neo Nazis were… I became really interested in that kind of notion of marginality…”
—Aviva Rubin (03:39) -
On Growing Up with Hate:
“What happens when you grow up in a family of haters and what do you do with that?”
—Aviva Rubin (04:36) -
On Generational Hatred:
“There’s really only one categorically evil character in the story… that’s the grandfather.”
—Aviva Rubin (07:10) -
On Changing Times:
“There’s been a huge amount of permission granted and these ideas and these belief systems are no longer marginal at all. In fact, they’re welcome.”
—Aviva Rubin (09:30) -
On Satirical Indoctrination:
“It’s a bit of a tongue in cheek list… anything he can think of that he can’t stand, he blames on the Jews.”
—Aviva Rubin (10:28) -
On Free Speech vs Truth:
“This is the problem now is that we have lost truth… it’s the freedom to just make up crap… dangerous to other people’s lives.”
—Aviva Rubin (21:02) -
On Undercover Self-Loathing:
“She doesn’t believe she deserves to live in the world she’s trying to create… she feels somewhere like, ‘I kind of deserve that anyway’.”
—Aviva Rubin (23:19) -
On Hope for Canada:
“No, I absolutely have hope for Canada… I do not feel that the haters are winning here… the country is very polarized, like, more polarized than I feel I’ve ever experienced it…”
—Aviva Rubin (25:13, 27:17)
Notable Timestamps
- 03:12 – Aviva Rubin describes the 1990s anti-fascist activism that inspired the book.
- 04:36 – Discussing the protagonist Sarah Cartel’s origins and her complicated legacy.
- 07:10 – Examination of the grandfather, founder of the Church of Purity, and his influence.
- 09:30 – Insight into shifting mainstream attitudes toward hate speech and white supremacy.
- 10:28 – Satirical list blaming Jews and the absurdity of extremist indoctrination.
- 12:18 – Depiction of therapy and Sarah’s realization about her abusive upbringing.
- 17:29 – Investigation into the forgotten history of Canadian antisemitism.
- 19:43 – The challenges of hate speech legality and the freedom of speech in Canada.
- 21:02 – Rubin laments the current explosion of false news and loss of truth.
- 23:19 – Exploration of Sarah’s psychological motivations in infiltrating hate groups.
- 25:13 – Rubin’s optimism for Canada’s resilience against hate.
- 28:05 – Sneak peek into Rubin’s upcoming “Me Too” themed mystery novel.
Conclusion
This conversation with Aviva Rubin offers a candid window into the personal, political, and psychological terrain of White: A Novel. Rubin’s experiences as an activist inform her depiction of the far right’s presence in Canadian history, while her nuanced cast avoids simple binaries of evil and innocence. Throughout, Rubin remains hopeful for Canada, aware of its complexities, and eager to tackle different subjects in her forthcoming work. Rubin’s voice is reflective, occasionally wry, and always thoughtful—a tone mirrored by the host’s probing approach.