Podcast Summary

New Books Network: Ben Ratliff, "Run the Song: Writing About Running About Listening"

Interview by Chris Holmes (Burned by Books) | January 23, 2026

Overview: Main Theme and Purpose

This episode features Ben Ratliff, acclaimed music critic and author, discussing his latest book, Run the Song: Writing About Running About Listening (Graywolf Press, 2025). Host Chris Holmes explores with Ratliff the intertwining experiences of running and listening to music. They delve into how physical motion and sonic movement intersect, shaping perceptions of space, time, self, and community—especially under the constraints and reflections of the COVID-19 pandemic. The conversation highlights Ratliff’s unique approach: embracing eclectic musical choices, favoring the “middle” of songs, and pondering the deeper connections between solitary and communal experiences.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Opening Reading and the Embodied Experience

[04:10–06:52]

• Ratliff reads from the book’s opening, capturing the sensory immediacy of leaving home, entering the Van Cortlandt Park, and immersing in space and sound.
• Music is envisioned as a “body” that can parallel a runner’s journey: “If I know a song of a sort of middle length that stays truly on... I can imagine going through all of it in my head, from beginning to end, while running one circuit of the field.” (Ratliff, [05:47])

2. The “Body” of Songs and the Value of the Middle

[07:42–12:11]

• Ratliff reflects on his years as a NYT music critic, suggesting that the essence of music—and life—is found not in beginnings or ends, but in the ongoing "middle":
  • “It’s the middle that’s important. It’s the middle that’s worth writing about.” (Ratliff, [10:18])
• Running unlocks direct access to music’s motion, amplifying the marrow of a piece: not structure, but flow.

3. Running During COVID: Place, Isolation, and Attention

[12:11–15:10]

• The pandemic’s isolations shifted Ratliff's runs from routine to ritual, offering new engagement with the city and with listening.
• Running acts as a means to “stitch the city back together,” especially in a Bronx divided by highways and “Moses-style impediments.”
  • “I found that I could kind of like stitch the city back together, you know, after what people like Robert Moses had done to it.” (Ratliff, [13:40])

4. Eclecticism in Music—Rejecting Genre and Tempo

[16:32–21:22]

• Ratliff resists conventional matching of tempo (beats per minute) to running pace, instead welcoming diverse musical genres.
  • “People who define themselves by genre, I always think that... No, you probably respond to and maybe even like more than you think.” (Ratliff, [17:25])
• Jazz—especially for its improvisational energy and swing—serves as a core, but Ratliff includes everything from classical to punk to techno.
• Even slow, delicate music can fuel running: “The sound of somebody playing very, very, very slowly is the sound of life, is life force.” (Ratliff, [21:10])

5. Running and Listening as Contemplative, Open Practices

[22:34–26:16]

• Both activities serve as open invitations, not exercises in mastery or competition. Ratliff likens the approach to Zen or other contemplative practices:
  • “I want the running to be telling me how I’m feeling... I want the experience to reveal itself without me forcing it.” (Ratliff, [22:53])
• The future orientation of both running and listening mirrors “three time experiences at once”—past, present, and unfolding future.

6. Music as Community, Play, and Participatory Discrepancy

[26:16–33:01]

• Music’s communal potential (performers and audience, or group improvisation) contrasts with the aloneness of running—especially during lockdown:
  • “Implicit in the idea of music is a kind of... togetherness or community.” (Ratliff, [26:51])
• The concept of “participatory discrepancy” (citing musicologist Charlie Kyle): real music’s power arises from tiny imperfections, moments of play where participants adjust to each other:
  • “The tiny little instances of musicians being out of tune and out of time... he felt that’s the lifeblood of music.” (Ratliff, [30:55])
• Memorable anecdote: hearing the imperfect yet moving Brandenburg Concertos in Troy, NY, as more “real” than a flawless studio recording.

7. Running, Otherness, and Social Boundaries

[33:01–36:57]

• Ratliff discusses the tension between running’s sense of freedom and the social realities of race and belonging, referencing the killing of Ahmaud Arbery:
  • “Running does make you think about... why we can’t just go where we want to go.” (Ratliff, [36:15])
• Music, like society, contains both possibilities for connection and ingrained boundaries: “Why not just move against all those divisions? Try to listen as well as you can, no matter what it is...” (Ratliff, [37:01])

8. Breadth of Listening—Sample Artists and Eclecticism

[37:01–39:34]

• Reflecting the book’s spirit, Ratliff lists the staggering diversity of music encountered on his runs: punk (Nosebleed), soul (William Devant), classical (Vikingur Olafsson), Carnatic by Takahashi Kuzan, jazz (Alice Coltrane, Sonny Rollins), techno (Theo Parrish), pop (Ice Spice), and much more.

9. Recommendations: Albums and Books

[39:34–46:24]

Music Recommendations

• Kara-Lis Coverdale, A Series of Actions in a Sphere of Forever: Solo piano with shifting, ambiguous direction and intention. ([40:13])
• Ismael Rivera: Afro-Latin singer (esp. with Cortijo y Su Combo, Lo Último en la Avenida). Celebrated for improvisatory, destabilizing swing.

Literary Recommendations

• Solvej Balle, On the Calculation of Volume (Parts 1–3): Time-loop fiction focused on existential repetition, not redemption.
  • “They’re small books... all about a woman who is experiencing the same day over and over. I love thinking about time...” (Ratliff, [42:32])
• Samuel R. Delany, The Motion of Light and Water: Memoir of coming of age in downtown NYC, connecting literary life, bodily experience, and the city’s social textures.
  • “He really makes you sort of see and feel the streets and the clothes and the weather...” ([45:56])

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “It’s the middle that’s important. It’s the middle that’s worth writing about.”
  —Ben Ratliff ([10:18])

• “I realize that the subject of music and running often comes down to this question of what is the ideal tempo to run to... and I resist it. I kind of reject it.”
  —Ben Ratliff ([19:54])

• “Whatever running can give a person, I want it to be revealed. I want the running to be telling me how I’m feeling.”
  —Ben Ratliff ([22:43])

• “Music creates communities... But when you’re running, you’re often alone... That tension—I’m not sure that I want to resolve.”
  —Ben Ratliff ([27:08])

• “Participatory discrepancies... that’s the lifeblood of music. The little things that some people might classify as mistakes.”
  —Ben Ratliff ([30:51])

• “Running does make you think about... why we can’t just go where we want to go.”
  —Ben Ratliff ([36:15])

• “…my stealth theme is always breadth. Listen to as much as you can listen. Listen across perceived divisions. Run into the neighborhoods where you’re not exactly sure whether or not you are welcomed there.”
  —Ben Ratliff ([38:48])

Timestamps for Key Segments

• [04:10] Ratliff reads from the book’s opening scene
• [07:42] Discussion of music’s "body" and the value of the middle
• [12:11] Running during the pandemic and city as place, attention
• [16:32] Breadth and rejection of tempo or genres in run playlists
• [21:06] The value of slow music for running and life
• [22:34] Running as open, Zen-like practice—trust in process
• [26:16] Community vs. solitude in music and running
• [30:43] Participatory discrepancy and the play of imperfection
• [33:08] Addressing otherness, race, and running’s freedoms/limits
• [36:57] Connecting musical and social boundaries, advocating openness
• [39:34] Music and book recommendations

Final Thoughts

Ratliff’s Run the Song offers a riveting exploration into how running with music becomes a space of critical inquiry, bodily awareness, and creative possibility. His approach encourages listeners and readers to embrace surprise, reject easy categorizations, and cultivate openness—in music, movement, and life. This episode will provoke any thoughtful runner, listener, or anyone seeking to experience art and the world more presently, more playfully, and more broadly.