B (3:15)

Some of them, I would say, due respect, took a more narrow view. Their. Their feeling is that a concept album has to be the narrative type, like SF Sorrow, which is by the Pretty things which is in the book, or albums such as that and that something that even though it was conceived as a thematically linked group of, of pieces that are designed to be experienced together, they wouldn't view something. Some of them would not use something like Rick Wakeman's the Six Wives of King Henry VIII as a concept album. Wakeman certainly does. I certainly do, and I think the majority of listeners probably do. But everyone has their own opinion on such things.

A (4:05)

So you've already mentioned about the different types of ideas or themes that can come together to make a concept album. Um, but with that in mind, when most people think about concept albums, what usually comes up are the albums where this artist adopts a temporary Persona, or there's a larger narrative within the songs that does create that cohesive story. Rock opera was the term that you had mentioned and you purposely avoided a lot of those more common rock operas. But for. For people who may be less familiar with that concept, what are some examples of those kind of more typical concept albums that get up get brought up more frequently than the loose concept ones you profile in the book?

B (4:43)

The biggest one would probably be Tommy by the who, and another one would be Quadrophenia, also by the who. Both of those are semilinear narrative type stories with, you know, the music. And it's. They're designed to be listened to from start to finish, and there's a story of sorts that is contained within. And so the rock opera, like that is the most common. Most music scholars with whom I'm familiar would say that the first rock opera was probably SF Sorrow by the Pretty Things, which came out just. Well, it was recorded a bit before Tommy, but came out after Tommy. And as a result, as Wally Waller told me when I interviewed him, the. The band got a lot of stick from critics who said, you're ripping off Tommy. And they were like, hey, we recorded this first. Our record company was just slowed to get it out on the street.

A (5:52)

So to give people some historical context for when concept albums start to arrive, you know, it's only when it's only the 1940s, the late 1940s, when full length albums started to emerge. Prior to then, you had singles and 78s and. And then albums became increasingly popular throughout the 1950s. Like, when we think of an album, a lot of the earliest iterations of that are going to be from the 50s. And you. You had mentioned Sinatra's and the Wee Small Hours as being generally considered the first concept album at a time when, yeah, albums were just becoming this. This format that's gaining a lot more appreciation and a lot more versatility. But it was during the next decade, in the 60s, that the concept album really entered its heyday as a format. And you write in the book that despite all the changes on the popular music landscape, this still continues today. And I just want to get a sense of what are some innovations that concept albums developed back then that still resonate today.

B (6:46)

I think the idea of swinging for the fences, if you will, of saying again, rather than just not just now, that there's anything wrong with a collection of unrelated songs that an artist has put together that are really, really good. The. The idea of taking things one step further, of using the album format as a canvas upon which to create something more ambitious. That spirit goes well beyond the idea of, say, the single. While the, you know, the single is great. And the amazing thing about a single is, is that to be successful, it has to distill a lot of virtues into 2, 3, 4 minutes. The concept album goes completely the other direction and says, well, we'll go as long as we need to go, and we will dig in and we will make these various pieces fit together in a way. And I think that the influence of that, maybe not anything specifically musical, but just the influence of having the freedom to step beyond the normal boundaries of what is thought of in making an album that endures to this day in all sorts of genres. Certainly not just progressive rock, which is kind of the main genre that a lot of people tend to associate with concept albums. And that's one of the fallacies that I endeavor to dispel with the book and with the choices of the albums that I explore.

A (8:36)

Well, let's get into those fallacies because one thing I really appreciate you about your book and you sharing all this with me is because with how broad concept albums can be as a format, you know, this context is really helpful as we take a look at some of the albums in the book, and there are 30 of them. We don't have time to go through them all. That's for listeners to check out for themselves and to get your book. But there are a few that we'll discuss. But before we get into That I did want to ask you about how you did decide which albums to cover. You know, many of the most celebrated concept albums came out during the height of album rock in the 60s and 70s. But as we mentioned, you skip over these because focusing on the more well known examples, it does give this impression that concept albums are no longer a relevant format. So with the idea of the relevancy in mind, how did you decide which albums to cover for the book? I can imagine it was quite a difficult decision because looking through, I was really impressed. There was a lot of albums I'd never heard of and there was a lot of albums like, oh, he chose that one over that one. Okay. All right.

B (9:32)

There were a number of criteria. One of them, in no particular order, one of them was that I wanted to cast a wide net in terms of chronology. So the earliest albums that I explore are from the mid to late 60s and the latest one came out in 2024. Because I wanted to make the point as, as you pointed out, that while people do tend to do often tend to think of that period from say 68 to 75 or so as the heyday of the concept album, there are plenty of really, really rewarding albums in that style that have come out since. So that was one another was that on a personal level, the album had to move me. If they're is an album that I can. I'll say objectively, although it's hard to be objective about such anything in art, but there may be an album that I objectively will concede that is a great album, but maybe it doesn't move me personally. I can, I can admire it from afar, but I don't really care to listen to it or listen to it much, for I would cross those off the list because. Not because they don't deserve coverage, but because I know that all the artists that I spoke with were so passionate about what they did. I wanted to be able to bring a commensurate level of passion to my inquiry to them. So if I couldn't get excited about the album myself before I interviewed the artist about it and then wrote about it, I felt, you know what? I'm not really the person to do that. The other criteria was a very, very practical one, who was available. In Contrast to my second book, which you kindly mentioned, Disturbing the Peace, about 415 records, that book was written, researched and written during the pandemic. So I had the advantage during a really difficult time for so many people of having everybody who I wanted to talk to available. No one could say, yeah, Bill, I'm sorry, I'm busy. No, you're not. You're home just like the rest of us. So I did 93 interviews for that book and everyone was very generous with their time. With the pandemic thankfully behind us, a lot of artists are trying to make up for lost time. So they're back on the road, back in the studio, or in the case of ones that are legacy artists or retired, they're on to other things as well, reconnecting with the rest of the world. World people were not as available as they were. So there were a couple select artists who I had hoped to get in touch with, but who just were not available during the time frame that I had within to work. If there's a second volume, which I would like to think there might be, I've got way more than 30 more. I've got a very, very long list.

A (12:45)

Well, let's get into some of those albums you covered in the book, because you cover a wide range of genres and styles and even spanning decades. As you mentioned, your. Your earliest albums were from the 60s and the most recent one was just released a couple of years ago. So with that in mind, I want to start with that earliest album in the book, which is Of Cabbages and Kings by Chad Stewart and Jeremy Clyde, released in 1967. And before then, Chad and Jeremy were a poppy folk duo that had hits as part of the British Invasion. Before we start talking about the album, could you give us some background on Chad and Jeremy prior to that?

B (13:19)

Well, you summed it up in a sentence right there. Chad and Jeremy were a folk pop duo out of. Out of the uk, often and amusingly confused with another folk pop duo out of the UK called Peter and Gordon. And their styles were not miles and miles apart. Peter and Gordon had the slight advantage of having a songwriter named Paul McCartney do some composing for them, so that helped them along. Chad and Jeremy used outside songwriters, some in the early days, but as they developed they got much more into songwriting themselves. Jeremy, Chad Stewart was a very, very gifted multi instrumentalist and both of them were songwriters. And so after having gone going through a series of producers, most of whom were sort of of the assembly line, let's, let's get it done and move on sort of mindset, they were able to hook up on Columbia Records with Gary Usher, who had done some really, really interesting work with a number of artists including the Byrds and Paul Revere and the Raiders. And so with, with that they decided to take on a truly ambitious work that Certainly confused fans, but it's. It's a delightful period piece.

A (15:02)

I'm interested in that confusion because I wanted to get the background. Because you write in the book that nothing in Chad and Jeremy's discography up to that point hinted towards something as ambitious as this concept album. So how did Of Cabbages and Kings set itself apart from Chad and Jeremy's earlier music? And what exactly was driving that ambition to do this larger work?

B (15:23)

I think a large part of it was the fact that they took the reins of the songwriting and brought it in house, as opposed to having sort of a mix of pieces that they had written and pieces from outside songwriters that were chosen by. Often chosen by producers. I think the other thing that may have made a difference is they made a move from dreary at the time, dreary London to sunny Southern California. And the whole culture of Southern California opened their eyes to a whole lot of different experiences and things that I think widened their worldview. And also they had done a lot of touring. And so just with that experience under their belts, I think, and just sort of looking at what was in the zeitgeist as far as other artists sort of stretching out and doing things that were a little more, sometimes a lot more ambitious than, again, the collection of pop songs, they thought, you know, we would really like to do something ambitious, something big.

A (16:29)

So Chad and Jeremy initially had some trouble making that album, including going through a lot of technical problems. And this was considerable because back then there was so little time to make records. Artists in the 60s would release an album every year, or even sometimes more than one, which is very different from how albums are made now. How did that impact the development of Cabbages and Kings and maintaining that integrity of an idea for a concept?

B (16:54)

ALB I'm not sure they had that much trouble making the album. I think part of what happened is that they were exposed to a freer environment in the studio. They were working in a studio that had more options than they were used to, probably, almost certainly a bigger budget. And they had a producer who had much more of a collaborative mindset, who, as opposed to saying, okay, here are the songs you're going to do and here are the orchestrations, we need the two of you to lay down some acoustic guitar and sing some harmonies, and then we'll move on here. It was a start to finish creative project that they were truly and deeply involved with from start to finish. And when they did bring in outside people in, the most significant among those were some friends of theirs. The conceptual psychedelic comedy troupe the Fireside Theater to do a number of the spoken word pieces that make up the. Make up a significant part of the conceptual side too of the album.

A (18:09)

When Of Cabbages and Kings was released, Chad and Jeremy were criticized for jumping on the concept album bandwagon because the Beatles had released Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band the same year. But, but you write in the book that the facts don't support the criticism. What do critics get wrong about this.

B (18:24)

Album at the time? Anyway? I think the idea is that when, when people did hear Of Cabbages and Kings, they thought, oh yeah, it's just someone else trying to follow on from what the Beatles did with sergeant Pepper. In fact, the, the albums were recorded roughly at the same time. In fact, Of Cabbages and Kings may have been recorded sooner. In any event, neither Jeremy Clyde or Chad Stewart heard a single note of any of the sergeant Pepper material until their album was complete and in the can.

A (19:01)

So Of Cabbages and Kings is the earliest album in the book. And as your book covers this wide range of styles across different decades, I want to jump ahead to the most recent album, which is the self titled debut from Sycophant, released a couple years ago in 2024. And sycophant is a progressive rock band from Oslo and their album explores this wide assortment of musical styles that ultimately come together to create this seamless whole. And you write that when Sycophant released their album it resembled a major label release, but they had released the album on their own independently. Could you tell us more about that journey for them?

B (19:38)

Yeah, that was quite remarkable. I discovered the album by a promotional copy being sent my way and as someone who enjoys progressive rock, I said, okay, I'll give this a listen. And I was immediately struck by the depth and quality of the music and I wondered who's putting this out? So I got in touch with them and asked and they said, we've self released it. We looked around, we talked to a few record labels and never were able to really work anything out. So we decided we're just going to put this thing out ourselves. And they did. Everything from the, the, the, the production to the packaging is first rate. And the only thing that really differentiates it from a major release is a major label release is that there's no UPC code on the back and there's, it's, you pretty much have to get it from the artist.

A (20:44)

And what's remarkable about this album is that the influences aren't just musical. There are influences that Sycophant brought to their album that come from a number of different literary sources that inspired the concept. Could you tell us more about how the album draws its characters and ambiance from Scandinavian folktales that the band had grown up with?

B (21:03)

According to Emma Moen, who is one of the band members that I interviewed, there's a tradition in Scandinavian folktales being fairly dark, and there are certainly dark moments. There's certainly humor on the album as well, which is pretty fascinating and a neat trick to pull off against the backdrop of sort of an epic tale. But the folk tales of a. A journey of discovery, which is honestly a fairly common or popular theme in concept albums, that's a big part of it. And then there also the. Some of the existentialist themes that are explored are inspired certainly by Albert Camus. We'll say the Stranger, because my French pronunciation is not great. I think something like that.

A (22:00)

With the band keeping with their unified vision for the album. You also write about how the visuals and packaging of Sycophant's album are thematically consistent with the music. And this is very interesting because, yeah, you know, you can sometimes think, okay, the COVID does kind of convey what you might hear. But I was interested in how the packaging itself reflected that. So how does the album's cover and the packaging reflect the album's themes and narrative?

B (22:23)

Well, they enlisted the services of a graphic artist, a painter, to create visual representations of each of the six tracks. And I say six tracks, the album. When they issued the album digitally, they would send two versions. You get one that had six tracks and then another single unified track that runs the entire hour. Plus, the idea is that it is truly an unbroken thing, but you can also break it up. But anyway, thinking of it in terms of the six tracks, they wanted graphical representations for each of those songs that complement the story that's within.

A (23:09)

So of Cabbages and Kings and Sycophant. They each represent one end of the timeline that your book covers and really appreciate you going through those albums. And there's quite a few more that we could talk about, but we only have time to talk about one more. And so I want to discuss with you a rock opera that I feel is very underappreciate created. And that's Frank Zappa's Joe's Garage from 1979. And as you had pointed out in the book, Frank had been making music since the mid-60s. And though quite a bit of his work had elements of a narrative or overall theme, like We're Only in it for the Money, he had yet to create a wholly conceptual piece until Joe's garage, I kind of think that the album is a bit of a big bang for him creatively. So to kind of set the tone as Frank's first rock opera, could you describe to us the plot of the album?

B (23:58)

Oh, boy. I did my best to sort of distill it down to a paragraph or two in the book, but essentially it's the story of the. The titular character, Joe, who's in a garage band. The band breaks up. He goes and joins the CYO at his local Catholic church, meets a priest, meets a girl named Mary. Mary goes and cheats on him. Well, she goes and competes in a wet T shirt contest. He descends into a funk and joins the Church of the Appliantology, which is a very, very thinly veiled swipe at a certain west coast organization that's classified as a religion for tax purposes.

A (24:50)

And the leader is named L. Ron Hoover.

B (24:52)

L. Ron Hubbard. Right, Right. L. Ron Hoover is his name. Yes. So he joins that and a bunch of other things happen to them. He eventually goes off to prison where bad things happen to him. And when he gets out, music has been outlawed and he gets a job in the utility muffin Research center, putting little icing rosettes on muffins. And there the story ends. It makes a lot more sense when you listen to it.

A (25:27)

Exactly. When you listen to it. And also it's an allegory at that time of Zappa observing the Ayatollah Khomeini taking power through the Iranian revolution and his fear of that happening in the U.S. it's very involved, more than just some guy playing music in his garage and getting an std. Oh, sure, it may have that veneer of that, but they're, you know, of the low brow concept, but there's a lot of highbrow meaning in it. And so. But it does open up to Zappa's own creative process because his method of making albums would often include recording live performances and using elements from those for studio recordings. And so sometimes audiences would hear new songs live before they were included on an album. And I think the term for that is like. Oh, like synchrony or something.

B (26:14)

It's. It begins with an X.

A (26:16)

Yes, it's xenocrhe or like.

B (26:18)

It's xenocrony or xenocrone or something like that. Yeah, essentially because Zappa recorded pretty much all of his concerts from a certain point forward in multi track, he had pristine recordings of all these performances. And what he would often do, which is kind of Counterintuitive is he would just take just the guitar solo, take away the whole rhythm, everything, all the drums, everything else, and then record a new under score that may have been. May have had absolutely no relation to what was originally played. Now I don't. It's hard to even imagine how one could do that. But then Zappo was a genius and that's kind of how he could do it. So the other. That process was used a good bit on Joe's Garage.

A (27:12)

Yeah, because, you know, Zappa didn't really have a rock opera in mind when he began recording the recording sessions. And the first two songs that came out of that were Joe's Garage and Catholic Girls. And Catholic Girls is. Is a. One of the more infamous tracks in his oeuvre. But it was only after finishing those tracks that he began thinking of this overall concept for the album.

B (27:33)

How.

A (27:33)

How did that idea start to come together?

B (27:37)

I think he was an artist whose mind was always working. And to give credit where it's most likely due, based on my conversations with Ike Willis, who I should point out the Joe's Garage chapter was the only one in the book where I did not speak with the artist who made the name artist who made the album. Because of course Frank died many years ago. But I instead spoke with Ike Willis, who had just joined the band, toured with Frank prior to making this album, and Ike is the lead singer on the album and remained as a guitarist with Zappa for a number of years afterward. In any event, I think that the time, even though Zappa was always the captain in the studio and he was always the main guy, the guy with the vision, he wasn't beyond given creative give and take with the other musicians. And by Ike's telling of the story, they would sit around joking and just having conversations about different things. And I think out of that came some of the inspiration for thematically linking those two songs and then building upon that into something much, much larger. A three album set. A three record set eventually.

A (28:58)

And it's an album I really appreciate and I do think it's really underrepresented in his career because when you look at those lists of best ever albums, the ones that Zappa gets referenced on are Hot Rats or We're Only in it for the Money. You know, those, those are the common ones. But Joe's Garage was my first Zappa album and it seems like such a really great entry point into everything that makes Zappa Zappa. It's. It just just. And it's just so relevant to today. That's one of the enduring things about it in this concept and his musicality is it just. The idea sounds so fresh.

B (29:36)

It's a bit of a cliche to call something timeless, but I do think that there is something about the themes, the underlying themes, not the low brow stuff, but the more highbrow ideas and concepts that do endure across the years. And on top of all that, the music is really, really compelling from as. As someone who bought all of the albums that Zapper released on vinyl during his lifetime, just about one of my very favorite tracks of his, as much as I enjoy his lyrics, is Watermelon and Easter Hay, which may be maybe. It's certainly one of the top 10 pieces that he ever composed. I think it's just a beautiful, beautiful piece.

A (30:24)

Oh, it really is. It's. And for those who don't know what Watermelon Easter Hay is, it's about a nine minute long guitar solo. And in the concept of Joe's Garage, after he's released from prison and music's made illegal, he has to give up his own ambitions and he. And he hawks his imaginary guitar like he puts, you know, he puts it in for pawn in his own mind. But before he does that, he goes to this one last guitar solo. And the reason why it's called Watermelon in Easter Hay is because it was so difficult to play. That was like trying to grow a watermelon in Easter hay.

B (30:57)

Yes.

A (30:59)

So I appreciate that so much. Bill and I just had one more question about it because earlier in the conversation we discussed how you chose not to cover concept albums from the heyday of 70s album rock, because that's where the more famous examples are. And Joe's Garage is certainly part of that realm, having been released the same year as Pink Floyd's the Wall. But it isn't as well received as those other albums because of its controversies, which does include provocative lyrics and even Zappa's use of blackface on the COVID which is. It's. It's defined as Grease. That's a. That's a whole debate there. But it's fair to understand how those controversies played a role in Joe's Garage not being held to the same regard as its contemporaries. But what merits. Does the album have to stand on its own among some of the more classic concept albums that were coming up at the same time?

B (31:46)

Well, as I mentioned, I think its musical virtues are way, way up there. And I think that the interplay between the musicians is as good as on any of his peak era material. Peak Era being from the beginning to the end, basically, for me. And I think that the storyline, if can be taken on the lowbrow level and just enjoyed as a sort of wacky, amusing, surreal, kind of fantastical thing. Or it can be taken, you know, you could dig deeper into it and appreciate it for its deeper meanings. And I think that's part of the value of any conceptual work that's truly successful. And it should work on a number of levels. Yes, you should be able to listen to it all the way through and get the concept. But if the individual pieces can't stand on their own, then that's a failing. And then it comes up a little short. And I think that Joe's Garage stands up in both ways.

A (33:02)

That's a really interesting point. You've got to be able to enjoy, you know, the individual bits of it as much as the larger whole. That's. I hadn't thought about that. And I. And I really appreciate discussing those albums with me, and it would have been great to talk about some of the others, but again, we'll leave those for people to buy your book and to discover for themselves. But I did want to ask you a few more things before we wrap up. And one of them was the reason why you structured the book the way you did was to showcase how concept albums continue to be relevant. And you write that in recent years the concept album has undergone something of a rehabilitation. What has that looked like?

B (33:37)

I think that some artists who would have never bothered with the idea of a concept album have decided to take a turn in that direction. One example is Steve Kilby of the Church. The Church, an Australian group, have been around since very, very early 1980s, actually even a little bit before, and have made dozens of albums. And it was only with the Hypnagogue, which came out in 2023, I believe, that they. That Kilby wrote a narrative album. And when I interviewed him, which was shortly after the album was released, he actually came through my town, Asheville, North Carolina, and played a show here. And at the show, he actually spent a fair amount of time between songs explaining the story, which is interesting and kind of a risky gambit because doing so at least threatens to destroy the flow of a concert. But he. He did it and it did work. And he was so pleased with how it went that by the time my book came out, he had already recorded and released a sequel to the Hypnagogue. So he's one artist who hadn't done it before. There are artists in hip hop, there are Artists in country and western and all sort of different styles that have made conceptual works that. In a way that even during the heyday of. If you accept that as being the heyday that, that period we discussed back then, it did tend to be mostly artists of a certain stripe with a few outliers now, I think artists, some artists at least feel the freedom to do, to. To take on the conceptual project, no matter what kind of idiom they're working at musically.

A (35:42)

So for us to close things off for those who are new to concept albums, what would you recommend? And I know the book, you know, obviously get the book and start with those. But do you know, just generally for someone who is less familiar, how would you curate that experience for them?

B (35:57)

I mean, what albums would I recommend? Yes, I'll give you three, if I may. I would recommend the Turtles present the Battle of the Bands as the first one. From the late 60s. Turtles were just not just. The Turtles were primarily a pop singles group. After sergeant Pepper came out, where the Beatles took on the Persona of Sgt. Pepper's band, the Turtles said, let's go 11, better, let's be 12 bands. So they made a concept album where they are for each song they take on a completely different musical personality. That's a fun, fun album. And it has a huge hit hit single, Eleanor, on it. That's one. Another would be Southern rock opera by the Drive By Truckers from the early 2000s. The idea of ostensible Southern rock being a backdrop for making a concept album seems unlikely at best. At least basing their. Their story is loosely inspired by the. The tragedy that befell the members of Lynyrd Skynyrd when their plane went down. It's. It's kind of a bizarre story, but it's a really, really expansive, ambitious album that really transcends Southern rock. And the third one that I would mention is an album that didn't really do well, didn't do very well commercially at all in the US but pretty much everywhere else on the planet was a monstrous hit. And that was Jeff Wayne's musical version of the War of the Worlds, which came out in 1977 or 78. That is a wonderful album made with a real all star group of vocalists, including Phil Linnett from Thin Lizzy, Chris Thompson from the man from Man's Earth Band, David Essex, and most notably Justin Hayward from the Moody Blues. And that's a narrative. It's very much like a radio play. It was done with the cooperation of the H.G. wells Estate and the narrator on it is of all people, Richard Burton. So that's a really. That's an epic work. And that album and the music from that album is so success, has been so successful that it was re recorded and released in Spanish, in German, in Hebrew and I think a couple other languages as well with different. It wasn't Richard Burton on those and has continued as a stage play to this very day for a number of years. Liam Neeson took over the role of the reporter, which was the original Burton role. When Neeson moved on to something else, he was replaced because the play is the stage work is constantly being updated. Now they use a hologram, Liam Neeson, which in 2026 makes a kind of sense. Anyway.

A (39:11)

Well, Bill, thank you so much for speaking with me today. Your book was a great exploration of the boundlessness of the art form of the concept album. And the selections in the book did a wonderful job expressing that and you should be incredibly proud and just a great, refreshing overview of this art form that I think is underrated.

B (39:30)

Thank you, Bradley. I'm very grateful for your interest and I'm glad you enjoyed the book. I had a lot of fun writing it.

A (39:37)

My name is Bradley Morgan and you've been listening to the New Books Network with my guest, Bill Kopp. His latest book is what's the big 30 great concept albums? And is published by Hozak Books.