Episode Overview

Podcast: New Books Network
Host: Mortiza Hajezadeh
Guest: Professor Bill V. Mullen
Book Discussed: James Baldwin: Living in Fire (Pluto Press, 2019)
Release Date: October 19, 2025

This episode features a deep and wide-ranging discussion with Professor Bill Mullen about his landmark biography of James Baldwin, focusing on Baldwin’s radical politics, queer identity, relationship with global liberation movements, and enduring legacy. Together, they explore lesser-known facts from Baldwin's life, his literary evolution, international sojourns, political commitments, and why his writings maintain such power for contemporary readers.

Main Discussion Points & Insights

Bill Mullen’s Path to American Studies and Political Engagement

• Academic and Political Background:
  • Mullen describes his fusion of literary study and political organizing, with a particular attraction to radical movements (03:27).
  • “James Baldwin was kind of a natural choice... because he's at the intersection of radical politics and literature.” (03:58, Bill Mullen)
  • Personal resonance with Baldwin’s journey from working-class New York to intellectual prominence.

Why Write a New Baldwin Biography?

• Baldwin's Relevance to Contemporary Movements:
  • Inspiration drawn from the emergence of Black Lives Matter (circa 2012-2013) and the resurgence of Baldwin's commentary on policing and structural racism (05:03).
  • Personal connection from living and teaching in New York, wanting to understand Baldwin’s breakthrough from poverty to global influence.

Baldwin’s Childhood and Literary Awakening

• Early Life and Influences:
  • Raised in poverty, with a mother in domestic work and a father who was both a factory worker and preacher (07:30).
  • Orilla Miller, a white leftist teacher and Communist Party member, took young Baldwin under her wing, exposing him to theater, film, and new ideas (09:00).
  • “She was the reason I could never fully hate white people, even when I wanted to kill them sometimes for what they were doing to black people like me.” (10:22, Bill Mullen quoting Baldwin)
  • Early encounters with racism and police influenced Baldwin's political consciousness.

Baldwin’s Religious Journey and Literary Transformation

• From Preacher to Disillusionment:
  • Began preaching at 14; by 16, questioned Christianity due to friction with his father, his developing sexuality, and the church’s limits (11:51–12:24).
  • “Fire Next Time” as a prophecy about America’s racial crisis and as a critique of Christianity amid the rise of Black Nationalism and the Nation of Islam.
    • “The Fire Next Time is an amazing sort of autobiographical moment... using that book to explode these myths about white Christians’ benevolence in America.” (16:16, Bill Mullen)

Exile and “Another Country”: Baldwin’s Years Abroad

• Paris and Istanbul as Sites of Liberation:
  • Leaving the US in 1948 to escape racism, seek creative space, and avoid possible self-destruction (17:39).
  • Paris offered community among fellow Black expatriates; Istanbul later provided anonymity, sexual freedom, and creative flourishing (19:30).
  • “He buys a home there [Turkey]... He begins to write many of his most important books of the 1960s [there]... There’s a certain anonymity he has there. He absolutely craved a private life.” (20:40–21:10, Bill Mullen)
  • The multicultural, Muslim setting broadened his worldview, deepening his analysis of East and West.

Baldwin, Palestine, and Anti-Colonial Solidarity

• Baldwin’s Encounters with Zionism and Palestine:
  • First-hand exposure to Israel and its treatment of Palestinians led to powerful identification with the oppressed (26:33).
  • “When I see the Palestinians living across from those barbed wire fences, I feel like I’m back in Harlem. Like, I recognize this.” (28:10, Bill Mullen quoting Baldwin)
  • Connected anti-Semitism in the US to global patterns of exclusion and oppression.
  • By the 1960s and ’70s, Baldwin became an outspoken defender of Palestinian rights.
• Comparison with Ghassan Kanafani:
  • Both seen as diasporic writers, exiles who spoke for their oppressed peoples (32:12).
  • “The role of the artist is to speak for the people. And I think that had they ever met, I think they would have understood each other perfectly.” (36:14, Bill Mullen)

Radical Politics: Socialism, Capitalism and Class

• Commitment to Socialism & Critique of Capitalism:
  • Influenced early by leftist mentors and Trotskyist circles (36:50).
  • Baldwin’s critique: racism and capitalism are interlinked; white supremacy is upheld by the structures of capitalism—“White supremacy is Chase Bank.” (39:51, Bill Mullen quoting Baldwin)
  • Letters and solidarity with Angela Davis, opposition to Reagan and neoliberalism, and support for indigenous American socialism (“Yankee Doodle socialism”) (41:37).
  • “He is, in my opinion, a Black Marxist.” (43:52, Bill Mullen)

Shifting from Integrationism to Black Self-Determination

• Relationship with Malcolm X and Black Power:
  • Initial skepticism towards black separatism and Nation of Islam’s “reverse of white supremacy logic,” later revised, with Malcolm X coming to be seen as a heroic figure (43:55–46:15).
  • “Malcolm X was at the end of the day, a real hero. Like a real hero.” (46:15, Bill Mullen)

Baldwin’s Legacy, Reappraisal, and Enduring Influence

• Rise, Fade, and Return:
  • Iconic status in the 1960s, first Black cover of Time magazine, but faded from public view as the civil rights and Black Power movements waned (47:33).
  • Reemergence in academic syllabi and then mainstream consciousness with Black Lives Matter (2010s), referenced in works by Ta-Nehisi Coates and others (51:00).
  • “James Baldwin was so ahead of his time that the time had to change for him for us to catch up with him.” (51:34, Bill Mullen)
  • Major legacy as a pioneering Black, openly gay writer—Giovanni’s Room as a radical act in the 1950s (52:30–53:35).

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Teaching and Mentorship:
  • “She was the reason I could never fully hate white people, even when I wanted to kill them sometimes...” (10:22, paraphrasing Baldwin on Orilla Miller)
• On Exile and Home:
  • “Baldwin always said you really only know your homeland after you leave it.” (23:10)
• On Capitalism and Racism:
  • “White supremacy is Chase Bank.” (39:51, quoting Baldwin)
• On the Role of the Artist:
  • “The role of the artist is to speak for the people.” (36:11, paraphrasing both Baldwin and Kanafani)
• On Legacy and Rediscovery:
  • “James Baldwin was so ahead of his time that the time had to change for him for us to catch up with him.” (51:34)
• On Literature for Young People:
  • “Go Tell It on the Mountain... it's a beautiful, beautiful story... The Fire Next Time is such an important book... If Beale Street Could Talk... I think the film adaptation is actually really, really exceptional...” (54:08–55:00)
• On “A Talk to Teachers”:
  • “You have these really important black lives in your hands, and it's your job to make sure... they understand how opposed the world is going to be to them, but two, to give them the tools and the confidence to stand up for themselves and to fight.” (56:40)

Key Recommendations and Takeaways

• For New Readers of Baldwin:
  • Go Tell It on the Mountain (coming-of-age semi-autobiographical novel)
  • The Fire Next Time (manifesto on race, religion, America’s future)
  • If Beale Street Could Talk (novel and its film adaptation)
  • Giovanni’s Room (groundbreaking gay love story)
  • A Talk to Teachers (essay/speech available online)
  • Take This Hammer (1963 documentary with Baldwin interviewing Black San Franciscans)
  • I Am Not Your Negro (Raoul Peck’s documentary based entirely on Baldwin’s words)

Important Timestamps

• Introduction and Mullen’s Background - 03:08
• Why Write a Baldwin Biography - 05:03
• Baldwin’s Childhood & Orilla Miller’s Role - 07:30
• Baldwin’s Religious Journey & ‘Fire Next Time’ - 11:31
• Exile: Paris, Istanbul, and Literary Productivity - 17:39
• Baldwin’s View of Palestine & Zionism - 26:33
• Baldwin and Ghassan Kanafani - 32:12
• Marxism, Capitalism, Race and Socialism - 36:50
• Black Power, Malcolm X, and Political Shifts - 43:55
• Baldwin’s Legacy and Reappraisal - 47:33
• Recommendations for Young Readers - 54:08
• On ‘A Talk to Teachers’ - 56:23

Closing Thoughts

This episode powerfully situates James Baldwin in historical and contemporary contexts, illuminating his unwavering commitment to truth, social justice, and radical empathy. Mullen’s biography and commentary underscore Baldwin’s ongoing relevance—for understanding race, sexuality, American identity, and the broader human struggle for dignity and freedom.

“There are artists who constantly interpret the present for us because there’s something so deep and extraordinary... Baldwin’s one of those writers.” (51:36, Bill Mullen)