Podcast Summary: "Black Beryl: Self and Nonself, with Nick Canby"

New Books Network | Black Beryl, Hosted by Dr. Pierce Salguero
Guest: Dr. Nick Canby (Clinical Psychologist, Brown University & Cheetah House)
Aired: December 12, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode delves into Dr. Nick Canby’s research on the “sense of self,” especially as it is experienced, disrupted, or lost through meditation, psychedelics, mental illness, or trauma. The conversation explores the complexities and potential risks of “nonself” experiences, the clinical and cultural frameworks that shape their interpretation, and methods for supporting individuals who’ve undergone destabilizing shifts in self-perception—work which Dr. Canby carries out through Cheetah House, a nonprofit supporting meditators in distress. The discussion is rich, critical, and nuanced, addressing the taxonomy, phenomenology, and care strategies for nonordinary states.

Key Topics & Discussion Points

1. Introduction to Guest and Research Focus

• [03:32] Nick Canby: Outlines his clinical and academic background (PhD in clinical psychology, Brown Univ.; work in Britton and Lindahl Labs; consulting at Cheetah House).
• Shifted focus from meditation to psychedelic-related adverse effects, teaches seminars on “Senses of Self” and “Psychedelics”.

2. What Is the 'Sense of Self'?

• [05:43][06:47] Nick Canby: The “self” is a broad term covering:
  • Narrative/psychological self (identity, history, likes)
  • Bodily/subjective self (agency, ownership, spatial localization)
  • “Perceptual center” (sense of being the one experiencing, e.g., “behind the eyes”)
• [08:41] Pierce Salguero: Buddhist and other traditions often teach the “self” is a construct, produced by interlocking subconscious processes—exploration via meditation, self-inquiry, spiritual practices, but also through trauma, psychedelics, or mental illness.

3. Taxonomy of Nonself and Boundary Changes

• [11:17] Nick Canby: His dissertation developed a taxonomy of self-boundary changes. Identified types include:
  • Expansion of self into everything
  • Loss of bodily boundaries (with people, world, objects)
  • Realization that bounded self is an illusion
  • Changes in interpersonal boundaries
  • Physical dissolution (body into environment)
  • Experiences of isolation (increase of boundaries, alienation—akin to dissociation)
• The same change can be interpreted as “oneness,” “enlightenment,” or “terrifying loss,” depending on personal and cultural context.

Notable Quote [11:17] – Nick Canby:

“There’s a wide range of different types of phenomenological experiences involving a change or loss of sense of self. And also there are different appraisals and feelings that can be associated with the same one.”

4. Phenomenological and Emotional Variation

• [13:11] Nick Canby: Found divergence in phenomenology and emotional outcomes:
  • Boundary expansion = often positive, intentional practices, associated with improved mental health.
  • Increased boundaries (alienation) = more negative, associated with trauma/mental illness, dissociation.
  • Experiences can be similar across causal contexts; the interpretations and consequences vary most.
• [18:33] Nick Canby: The type of self-experience doesn’t strongly vary by cause (meditation, psychedelics, trauma, mental illness), but emotional valence and integration do.

Notable Quote [18:33] – Nick Canby:

“The changes in sense of self themselves did not vary that much. ...the things that did differ the most, though, were the appraisal or kind of emotion characteristics.”

5. Role of Context, Support, and Worldview

• [22:16][23:32] Pierce Salguero & Nick Canby:
  • Importance of having philosophical, community, or teacher support.
  • Frameworks and support systems can make disruptive experiences meaningful, even positive—or, if lacking or misapplied, exacerbate distress.
• Risks: A teacher may mistakenly normalize a pathological episode, delaying needed medical intervention.

Notable Quote [23:32] – Nick Canby:

“Sometimes having a teacher who had offered a framework that normalized or provided a structure to understand an experience was really helpful...and at times also normalizing an experience that was actually felt as really pathological...was also harmful.”

6. Temporal Dynamics & Integration

• [27:19] Nick Canby: Duration of experience ranges from seconds to over a year; median 1-12 hours.
• Short vs. chronic: Short, transient “oneness” may be pleasant; if sustained, can disrupt daily function (e.g., driving).
• Integration or acclimation can allow one to function with (rather than despite) significant nonself experiences.

7. Neuroscience, Worldviews, and Phenomenology

• [31:44][33:23] Nick Canby:
  • Neuroscientific correlates are interesting but often provide little direct clinical utility.
  • Western emphasis on neural legitimacy is more about cultural acceptance than practical application.
• Traditions downplay fleeting experiences, focusing on long-term transformation, echoing both historical Asian sources and certain modern therapies.
• “Experience-seeking” = a modern preoccupation; traditional cultures valued enduring integration over transitory mystical states.

8. Nonself, Mystical Experience, and Mental Health

• [36:55] Nick Canby:
  • Ecstatic/mystical experiences can be addictive and used to avoid difficult emotions.
  • Dissociation (emotional blunting, distance) can become chronic, overlapping with clinical depersonalization/derealization.
• “Madness” and spiritual experience can be phenomenologically and even taxonomically indistinguishable.

9. Blurring Boundaries: Pathology, Progress, and Person-Centered Care

• [39:58] Nick Canby:
  • Included trauma, mental illness, meditation, and psychedelics as causes intentionally.
  • Literature often artificially divides “pathology” and “progress.”
  • The more pertinent question: Is additional support needed?
  • The DSM (“psychological disorder” manual) is a practical insurance tool, not an ontological statement about illness.

10. Clinical Application at Cheetah House

• [46:55][49:14] Nick Canby:
  • Cheetah House supports people with meditation-related challenges, providing education and individualized support.
  • Interventions generally begin with slowing or ceasing meditative practices if symptoms worsen; using “scaffolding”—rebuilding self/agency by focusing on external preferences and actions.
• [51:33] Pierce Salguero & Nick Canby: Contrasts with traditional advice to “push through”—most clients need to reconstruct and stabilize their sense of self first.

Notable Quote [49:14] – Nick Canby:

“One...approach that Willoughby Brittain really pioneered...is called ‘scaffolding’, based on a cognitive science theory called self-scaffolding… developing preferences again, noticing things you like...pulling back from overtraining a certain meditative skill.”

11. Handling Acute and Atypical Cases

• [52:59] Nick Canby:
  • Acute psychosis/mania: little can be done except safety/referral to medical treatment.
  • Dissociation: May require education, therapeutic support, but rarely hospitalization.
  • Energy-related symptoms: Psychology interprets these through arousal and somatic channels (not “energy” per se), offering psychoeducation and support.

12. Bridging Worldviews: Phenomenology vs. Ontology

• Experiences (such as “energy flows”) appear across traditions and in clinical pathology; the interpretation is shaped by worldview.
  • Functional contextualism (Acceptance & Commitment Therapy/ACT): The most relevant clinical question is whether an experience is functional in its context, not if it’s “true” or “real”.
• Cultural/social/narrative context and individual values/goals are vital for determining helpfulness or harm.

Notable Quote [61:04] – Nick Canby:

“If you’re looking at advanced Tibetan meditators who have shifts in body energy, you can ask: does it function well in its context? Probably yes... If people are having a similar experience on the psych ward, probably no.”

13. Motivation, Goals, and the Limits of Enlightenment

• Many seekers may project unrealistic wishes onto “enlightenment.”
• Person-centered care means prioritizing the individual’s health and context above adherence to tradition.

14. Personal Journey & Research Motivation

• [66:13] Nick Canby: Drawn in part from longstanding meditation interest (Vipassana, Zen, Tibetan), but research and clinical practice — not personal crisis —clarified his nuanced, context-sensitive outlook.

15. Cheetah House Resources

• [67:58] Nick Canby:
  • Online consultations, peer support, sliding scale/financial aid, weekly support group, educational courses for individuals and clinicians.
  • Website: cheetahouse.org

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• [11:17] Nick Canby: “There’s a wide range of different types of phenomenological experiences involving a change or loss of sense of self. And also there are different appraisals and feelings that can be associated with the same one.”
• [18:33] Nick Canby: “The changes in sense of self themselves did not vary that much... but the things that did differ the most were the appraisal or kind of emotion characteristics.”
• [23:32] Nick Canby: “Sometimes having a teacher who had offered a framework that normalized or provided a structure to understand an experience was really helpful... and at times also normalizing an experience that was actually felt as really pathological... was also harmful.”
• [61:04] Nick Canby: “If you’re looking at advanced Tibetan meditators who have shifts in body energy, you can ask: does it function well in its context? Probably, for the most part, yes. And if people are having a similar experience on the psych ward, probably no.”

Important Timestamps & Segments

• [03:32] – Introduction to Nick Canby, research focus, roles, and Cheetah House
• [05:43] – Taxonomy and definitions of the “sense of self”
• [11:17] – Phenomenological taxonomy of non/self, boundaries
• [18:33] – Impact of cause/context vs. interpretation/appraisal of experiences
• [22:16] – Importance and nuance of worldview, teacher, and support system
• [27:19] – Duration and integration of self-loss experiences
• [31:44] – Neuroscience’s role and limitations
• [36:55] – Mystical experiences, risk of avoidance, and overlap with mental health disorders
• [39:58] – Blurring the boundaries between pathology and progress; person-centered care
• [49:14] – Cheetah House support strategies (scaffolding, practice modification)
• [52:59] – Assessment and intervention for acute cases; conceptualizing energy experiences
• [61:04] – ACT/functional contextualism as a guiding therapeutic criterion
• [66:13] – Dr. Canby’s personal/research journey
• [67:58] – Accessing Cheetah House resources

Conclusion

This episode of Black Beryl offers a nuanced, contextually sensitive, and compassionate exploration of “self” and “nonself” in meditation, spirituality, and psychological practice. Dr. Nick Canby emphasizes that while nonordinary self-experiences are not inherently good or bad, their interpretation and integration depend on individual, social, and cultural factors. Support systems, motivation, and the functionality of these states in context are what ultimately matter most for well-being.

For help with meditation-related distress or to learn more:
Visit cheetahouse.org
Peer groups, education, and clinician resources available.