Black Beryl: The Modern Remaking of Kundalini, with Marleen Thaler

Summary

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Podcast Summary: "Black Beryl: The Modern Remaking of Kundalini, with Marleen Thaler"

Podcast: New Books Network—Black Barrel
Host: Dr. Pierce Salguero
Guest: Dr. Marleen Thaler
Release Date: February 6, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode examines the history and modern transformation of Kundalini, tracing its journey from a Hindu goddess at the base of the spine to its current understanding as both a source of spiritual power and a potential trigger for psychological crisis, sometimes referred to as "Kundalini syndrome." Dr. Marleen Thaler, a historian of religion with a specialty in Kundalini’s transmission and reception, joins Dr. Pierce Salguero to discuss:

• The historical and doctrinal evolution of Kundalini in texts and practice
• How Kundalini entered Western discourse through figures like Arthur Avalon and the Theosophical Society
• The emergence of "Kundalini syndrome," spiritual emergencies, and intersections with psychiatry
• The role of gender in Kundalini discourse
• The function of Kundalini at the intersection of spirituality and biomedicine in today’s culture

The tone is thoughtful, informed, and respectful, with an emphasis on historical specificity and methodological clarity.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Marleen Thaler’s Background and Approach

• Background: Austrian, PhD in Religious Studies from University of Vienna; works at University of Vienna and University of Graz [02:03].
• Research Approach: Emphasizes transmission history over doctrinal studies; sources are mostly in English. Includes fieldwork at Esalen Institute and anthropological experience [05:15].

Foundational Concepts: What Is Kundalini?

• Multiplicity of Definitions: Kundalini in South Asian texts is variously described as an energy, a goddess, or a component of the subtle body. Its location (heart, base of spine, etc.) and attributes differ across lineages and time periods [09:21].
  • “There’s not one Kundalini. There are several different concepts.” (Thaler, [09:21])
• Modern Proliferation: Modernity adds new layers—Kundalini as psychological force or even as a force of nature [10:55].
• Academic Challenge: Hard to compare pre-modern and modern “phenomenology,” as self-reports and descriptions of subjective experiences are mostly modern developments [12:18].

Early Transmission into the West: The Theosophical Society and Arthur Avalon

• Theosophical Society’s Role: Central in translating and framing Kundalini for non-South Asian audiences. Their translations were not neutral, aiming instead to promote the notion of perennial wisdom and a universal religion bringing peace and brotherhood [18:49], [20:58].
  • “It was translations aimed at promoting the theosophical agenda.” (Thaler, [20:22])
• Arthur Avalon (John Woodroffe): Popularized Kundalini in the West through The Serpent Power; worked with Bengali intellectuals. Theosophists promoted Avalon’s work, solidifying its influence [24:23].

“The Dark Side” of Kundalini: Gopi Krishna and Kundalini Syndrome

• Waves of Transmission:
  1. South Asian Theosophists
  2. Arthur Avalon’s publications
  3. Late 1960s–early 1990s expansion, with increased psychological framing and global diffusion [25:20].
• Gopi Krishna: Key figure in the third wave. His autobiography described debilitating physical and psychological effects following an unintentional Kundalini awakening [27:29].
  • “With Gopi Krishna’s account, it’s the first time that we are reading about Kundalini as a force that really leads to something devastating…to the extent that Gopi Krishna was fearing for his life.” (Thaler, [25:20])
• Kundalini Syndrome: Gopi Krishna inspired the term, later developed by Lee Sannella and Itzhak Bentov [31:38].

Medicalization: The Kundalini Clinic and Psychiatry

• The Kundalini Clinic (San Francisco, 1970s): Founded by Lee Sannella, Gabriel Cousens, and Harald Strayfeld. They, influenced by the anti-psychiatry movement, posited that Kundalini awakenings often get misdiagnosed as psychosis or schizophrenia [35:55].
  • “They believed that a lot of patients diagnosed with schizophrenia might be people who experienced a Kundalini awakening.” (Thaler, [34:18])
• Lee Sannella’s Distinction: Argued for differentiating Kundalini from mental illness and outlined signs and symptoms to help clinicians make the distinction. In contrast, Gopi Krishna sometimes framed Kundalini as leading to genuine mental illness [39:24].

Spiritual Emergency Networks and Support Structures

• Christina Grof & Spiritual Emergency Network: Founded at Esalen in 1980 following her own dramatic spiritual experiences, encouraged a reframing of overwhelming spiritual crises as "spiritual emergencies" or transformative opportunities [42:53].
• Organizations supporting spiritual emergencies include the Spiritual Crisis Network, Cheetah House, and the American Center for the Integration of Spiritually Transformative Experiences [57:05].

Gender and Kundalini Discourse

• Shift Toward Female Spokespersons: While early interlocutors (Avalon, Krishna, Sannella, Yogi Bhajan) were male, the contemporary field (especially support and guidance organizations) is often led by women such as Bonnie Greenwell and Tara Springett [46:10].
  • “The role of gender…has generally changed. Nowadays…female spokespersons. And this is something that is rather new, like the last two or three decades.” (Thaler, [46:10])
• Distinction: The gender of the spokesperson should not be conflated with the gendered symbolism of Kundalini, which is experienced by people of all genders [47:14].

Modern Biomedical and Therapeutic Interpretations

• Biomedical Correlates: Attempts have been made to link Kundalini with physical structures like the vagus nerve, mostly in New Age communities, not mainstream medicine [48:19].
  • “I don’t think that it makes sense to pose this question to a secularly thinking doctor…It’s really two different worldviews that are collapsing.” (Thaler, [48:19])
• Therapeuticization of Religion: Contemporary Kundalini discourse often serves a therapeutic function, helping individuals reframe crises as opportunities for spiritual growth and community [50:40], [52:53].

Value and Cautions of the Concept

• Dual Nature: The historical deconstruction of Kundalini does not negate its contemporary utility—people find meaning, support, and community through the concept [54:17].
  • “Countless practitioners…have benefited greatly from this concept…The most practitioners benefit from this concept.” (Thaler, [54:17])
• Warning: Both historical and modern practitioners should approach Kundalini with caution and respect, due to its potentially destabilizing effects [55:33], [57:00].

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Defining Kundalini:
  “There’s not one Kundalini. There are several different concepts…Kundalini as a goddess, as an energy, a psychological force, even a terrestrial force.”
  —Marleen Thaler [09:21]

• On Theosophical Influence:
  “It was translations aimed at promoting the theosophical agenda…that these very first translations of South Asian sources on Kundalini were theosophically colored.”
  —Marleen Thaler [20:22]

• On Gopi Krishna’s Impact:
  “With Gopi Krishna’s account, it’s the first time that we are reading about Kundalini as a force that really leads to something devastating…to the extent that Gopi Krishna was fearing for his life.”
  —Marleen Thaler [25:20]

• On Medicalization:
  “They believed that a lot of patients diagnosed with schizophrenia might be people who experienced a Kundalini awakening.”
  —Marleen Thaler [34:18]

• On Gender in Kundalini Discourse:
  “The role of gender…has generally changed. Nowadays…female spokespersons. And this is something that is rather new.”
  —Marleen Thaler [46:10]

• Caution for Practitioners:
  “Whoever practices Kundalini will experience pretty fast that it’s something…to be cautious about…Listen to your body.”
  —Marleen Thaler [55:33]

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [02:03] – Marleen Thaler introduces her background and methodological approach.
• [09:21] – Definitions and ontologies of Kundalini in South Asian and modern contexts.
• [18:49] – The Theosophical Society’s influence and goals in translating Kundalini.
• [24:23] – The Serpent Power and its impact.
• [25:20] – Introduction of Gopi Krishna and the concept of Kundalini as crisis.
• [31:38] – Birth of Kundalini Syndrome and medicalization in the 1970s.
• [39:41] – Kundalini in the DSM and ongoing psychiatric discourse.
• [41:19] – On Yogi Bhajan and the Kundalini Yoga brand.
• [42:53] – Christina Grof, the Spiritual (Emergency/Emergence) Network, and Esalen’s role.
• [46:10] – Gender roles and shifts in Kundalini discourse.
• [48:19] – Conflicts between biomedical and spiritual worldviews on Kundalini.
• [50:40] – Therapeutic function and reframing crisis as growth.
• [55:33] – Cautions and contemporary support networks.

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Useful Resources and Support Networks Mentioned

• Spiritual Emergence Network (Founded by Christina Grof)
• Spiritual Crisis Network
• Spiritual Emergence Anonymous
• Cheetah House (Focus: Meditation-induced difficulties)
• American Center for the Integration of Spiritually Transformative Experiences

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Conclusion

Dr. Thaler and Dr. Salguero emphasize Kundalini as a rich case study in the intersection of religion, spirituality, science, medicine, and community. While historically contingent and endlessly remade, the concept remains valuable for practitioners and scholars alike—but must be approached with care, context, and respect.

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For more on Dr. Marleen Thaler’s work, see her Academia.edu page.

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This summary excludes ads, intros, and outros, focusing solely on scholarly and practitioner content.

Transcript

[A]

Welcome to the New Books Network.

[B]

This is Black Barrel producer Lan Le, here to let you know that not all BPP episodes are syndicated on the New Books Network feed. To catch all of our episodes, you can subscribe directly wherever you get your podcasts. That's Black the Color B E R Y L. Now onto the show.

[A]

Foreign. Welcome to the Black Barrel, a podcast with intelligent conversations about Buddhism, Asian medicine and embodied spirituality. I'm your host, Dr. Pierce Salguero, a professor of Asian history and health humanities at Penn State's Abington College outside of Philadelphia. Today I sit down with Marlene Thaler, a researcher at the University of Vienna and University of Graz. Together, we investigate the history of the transformation of Kundalini from a Hindu goddess resting at the base of the spine to her modern manifestation as a psychiatric syndrome. Along the way, we discuss the central importance of the Theosophical Society, the anti psychiatry movement of the 1970s, spiritual emergencies and Kundalini as a meeting point for religion and medicine. If you want to hear scholars and practitioners engaging in deep conversations about the dark side of Asian religions and medic medicines, then subscribe to Black Barrel wherever you get your podcasts. Also, check out our members only benefits on substack.com to see what our guests have shared with you. Enjoy the show.

[B]

Hello.

[A]

It's really nice to meet you. I'm looking forward to this conversation. Looking forward to getting to know you and your work and everything.

[B]

Likewise.

[A]

Thanks for making the time.

[B]

Thank you for inviting me.

[A]

Just give us a quick couple of sentences about who you are, where you're located, what your position is, your professional bio, just so the listeners know who we're talking to.

[B]

Sure. So I'm Marlene, Marlene Tanner, and I'm originally from Austria, and that's also where I'm based right now. I did my PhD at the University of Vienna at the Department of Religious Studies, and currently I'm employed both at the University of Vienna and at the University of Graz, which is the second largest city in Austria, but pretty unknown. And my PhD was on the modern transformation of Kundalini, very broadly speaking.

[A]

Well, that's exactly why we want to talk to you today. So we've been doing a year now of episodes on what I've been calling the dark side of Asian religions and medicines and dark meaning, not necessarily evil or bad, but sometimes the aspects of spirituality that have been painted in that light, you know. So we've talked about things like spirits and demonology, we've talked about psychological problems, psychosis, we've talked about side effects of Meditation. We've talked about energy imbalances and things like that, both scholars and practitioners coming at these topics from different angles. But the one large, looming topic that we have not yet really dove into is Kundalini. And so I invited you because you're somebody who I think has the breadth of scope on this topic that I would like to bring to the podcast. I feel like you are able to maybe give us maybe the definitive overview of Kundalini that we need.

[B]

I hope so.

[A]

Maybe one question we should start with is to what extent is this topic for you, academic versus personal? Or you're a longtime yoga practitioner, like, how did you get into this to begin with?

[B]

So I am a long term yoga practitioner, but that's not how I got into the topic. So it all started actually with a research project on energy healing that I was contributing to back then. My PhD supervisor, Professor Carl Beyer and I, we were considering which energy has been like understudied and to Kundalini back then was very much understudied. Right now we are experiencing something like a wave of Kundalini research, of academic Kundalini new research. Back then it was in 2019, there was barely anything. So that's really like how I started off with the topic, like looking at an energy. And I'm not a Kundalini practitioner in any other lineage or other system. I have tried several practices as I always want to know what my research subjects are experiencing. But my main interest in Kundalini is mainly scholarly.

[A]

Yeah, I like to get clear on the position that people are coming from because we have so many different types of guests and the spectrum between scholars and practitioners and then all the shades of gray in between. So it's good to get where you're coming from out on the table. Talk a little bit about your approach because you are a historian. What is your background and training in terms of how you approach the topic of Kundalini?

[B]

Yeah, so I'm a historian of religion, so I mainly work within the context of transmission history. So I do not look at a lot of original works, like original Kundalini sources, but more like what figures in the transmission history of Kundalini had to say. So that's why most of my material is in English. But my main methodological approach is looking at historical sources between the 1880s and the 1980s. And I also was lucky enough to been able to talk with some people that were actually involved in the history, in the modern history of Kundalini's transmission. And now we are mainly talking about the second half of the 20th century. So that's definitely another major pillar of my approach. And then last but not least, and that's perhaps something that comes from my background as a social and cultural anthropologist. I do have a BA in anthropology, so I also did some field research. For example, I. I spent several months at the Esalen Institute and did some field research there. And in general, I always not only want to read about people and places, I want to experience them. I want to go there and see the places. Sense the places is so much easier for me if I've experienced it myself.

[A]

A lot of the people that you are reading and talking with would describe themselves as being Hindu, but it seems like a lot of them probably would not and maybe would use different terms for their form of spirituality or their kind of affiliation. What terms do you use to describe this milieu of people that you're interested in?

[B]

I don't think there's one single term, as there's so many contexts and millias that get together. We have the South Asian context of Hindus, and these people might be Hindu nationalists, these people might be Hindu reformists. These people might be considering themselves as very traditional Hindus. We have the religio therapeutic context of the United States, where, like, especially in California, a lot of different psychological perspectives shape ideological and religious perspective of my protagonists. We do have the more scientific perspective of my European protagonists. So it's very difficult for me to find one single overarching term for the whole, whole context of Kundalini's modern transformation. It's simply too many different strings that get together. But in general, I try to be as specific as possible. I do not talk about Western contexts, but rather about European American context.

[A]

I think one thing that's interesting that we've been exploring with this podcast across the years that we've been doing this is really how to make sense of these epistemological differences between, say, South Asian religions and European scientific or theosophical or American New Age worldviews and how to think about as knowledge or practices move across these different contexts, how people are or are not experiencing the same thing? Are or are not talking about the same thing. So I guess one really basic question that I would want to hear you talk about is, is there such a thing as Kundalini? Is Kundalini a thing that we can think about moving across time and space? Or is Kundalini more of just kind of like an empty signifier that maybe Kundalini in a medieval Indian text is not the same thing in any way? As Kundalini in a contemporary scientific paper.

[B]

Yeah. Usually the most basic questions are the most difficult ones.

[A]

So what is Kundalini? Marlene? Tell us.

[B]

Yes, very simple question. So protagonists, since the Middle Ages tried to answer this question. I will just try to give you a little bit of my perspective. So, first of all, there's not one Kundalini. There is like several different concepts. And we can see this already in salvation source material. There is several parallels, there is several ideas that are shared. Kundalini being either an energy, Kundalini being a goddess, Kundalini being a component of the subtle body. But then already, like, regarding the location of Kundalini in its dormant form, we have different perceptions, different concepts. Either it's located in the heart, either it's located at the base of the spine. So there's like many different ide, what Kundalini could be. And if we continue in time and if we reach modern times, so if we reach like the timeframe of my research, the Kundalini gets even more diverse. So we find Kundalini as still being a component of the subtle body, but then we also find Kundalini being a psychological force. We find Kundalini even transcending the body, the human body, and becoming a force of the nature. So Kundalini as a terrestrial force. So there's so many different perceptions and narratives that are associated with Kundalini that it's actually quite difficult to say what we're talking about. But since Kundalini has played consistently a role since, let's say, the 8th century, we definitely can say that Kundalini exists as a religious idea. It exists in the shape of several different practices, and it is a component of several different religious faith systems. So, yes, Kundalini exists because whatever is used by religious protagonists is a reality. It becomes real through the practice, through the faith of religious protagonists. What it is exactly differs greatly.

[A]

Is there a phenomenology underlying the use of the term that maybe is found across these different contexts? I mean, is there a certain kind of bodily sensation of this upward arising kind of energy that happens to people in spiritual practice? I mean, is that like a lowest common denominator that people then apply all of these different meanings and imagery to? Or are you saying that there's no common denominator that would be found in all cases of Kundalini?

[B]

I would say that at least to my knowledge, that's a rather modern development that protagonists would actually describe what happens to them during their experience.

[A]

Yeah, so that's something that's important to underscore for people who aren't historians who don't read pre modern texts very much. Just to kind of underline that point that we don't have autobiographical materials, we don't have self reports of spiritual experiences, we have a few, but we don't have a ton of that kind of material from the pre modern period. And so yeah, recovering people's phenomenological experiences, recovering the details of the phenomenology of spiritual experiences from the pre modern period is pretty difficult to do. So it's not surprising that we don't have any related to Kundalini. So the texts in the pre modern period then are coming from a more didactic, more doctrinal perspective, talking about maybe the cosmology or maybe talking about philosophical viewpoints. And then we also would have more mechanical practice texts like do this and then do that. That might mention Kundalini, but not really adequate descriptions of what it feels like. Personally.

[B]

Yeah, you would find yoga manuals where Kundalini plays a role and where certain asanas are described with Kundalini playing certain role. And you obviously have Kundalini in several pre modern texts discussing its ontological nature. Kundalini as a goddess within Shaktism. It plays a big role in pre modern texts. But yeah, the very personal experience of Kundalini is really nothing that we would find in pre modern texts. And that's what these modern texts, at least for me, makes them very interesting. Because now this very personal experience of Kundalini is at play, which is barely observable in earlier texts.

[A]

Obviously the details will be different between different texts. Maybe the Kundalini is a goddess is also some kind of energetic quality that animates the body, animates the cosmos that lives in your spine. And you can awaken through various kinds of spiritual practices. Is that kind of cluster of ideas? Does it appear in those in. In the earliest texts or where do those ingredients come together?

[B]

Yeah, so I will provide you with a description, but keep in mind that there's singular concept of Kundalini. I always have to repeat that in general Kundalini was understood as a force, as a goddess, as a shakti that is located at the base of the spine, which is basically like the lowest chakra within the South Asian subtle body. And it is believed as a force that is dormant. And Kundalini means she who is coiled. So frequently you find depictions of Kundalini as a dormant serpent. And if you use techniques and in the beginning we are mainly talking about visualizations during meditation and not so much about physical movements. But within time, physical movements add up to the visualization. So whatever practice you use, the aim is to awaken Kundalini. And awakening means that this force that is coiled uncoils and pierces all the chakras, so moves up towards the top of your head where, as many texts would describe, Shiva is located. So the fully awakening, the fully rise of Kundalini would lead to a reunion of Shiva and Shakti. And this may lead to spiritual evolution, this may even lead to liberation. So the awakening of Kundalini can be really seen as a spiritual practice or as a spiritual goal that may lead to liberation. So it's a very strong and very powerful practice. And we read in several texts that the Kundalini rises through the central channel. The South Asian subtle body knows several channels. They're called nadis. And the central channel, that's along the human spine, that's the Shishumna, and that's where Kundalini should rise.

[A]

So I just wanted to point out for our listeners that we had on a previous season Ruth Westaby as a guest. And she talked a lot about the development of the subtle body system within early Hindu, Tantric and also Buddhist Tantric texts in India and would refer people there because she's a Sanskritist and a historian of the ancient period to get more details about the subtle body and the kinds of things you're talking about.

[B]

Yes. Wonderful. I'm really glad you had Ruth on the podcast. Ruth and I, we work a lot together. Since she's doing the pre modern material. I do the modern modern material. And I would recommend everyone to reach out or to read Ruth's publication concerning pre modern Kundalini material.

[A]

Your focus is of course more on the modern period. So as, as we move forward then this kind of cluster of ideas that are there in the early South Asian Hindu texts, also in Buddhist texts, although the terminology is a little bit different. The translation of those ideas into Western languages, into European languages, introduces this concept of kundalin need to not only European, but also American scholars, practitioners, general public, etc. In my mind, a lot of that story has to do with Arthur Avalon. But are there other players that we should talk about before Arthur Avalon?

[B]

Yeah, Arthur Avalon is a key voice. And Arthur Avalon, obviously we're talking about a whole team, but John Woodruff collaborated with several Bengali intellectuals and authors. This always must be taken into consideration.

[A]

Can I just clarify that? So Arthur Avalon is a pen name for this team that you just described. Right.

[B]

Thank you. Yeah. Bengal is a very important area in South Asia, that's the place where South Asian intellectuals and members of the Theosophical Society would meet, interact, and create new ideas. So the Theosophical Society is a very important occult organ, was founded in New York in the 1870s and eventually moved its headquarter to India.

[A]

I feel like we could do a whole show just on the Theosophical Society just because of how important they were.

[B]

For several shows, kind of the.

[A]

The reception and translation of Asian stuff in general into English, into European and North American culture. They just were such a pivotal player in that whole sort of beginnings of that translation. Sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you, but I just wanted to, like, highlight that for the listeners just how critical the Theosophical Society was. And there's a lot more to say there. But yes, please continue.

[B]

No, totally. I can only agree and re. Emphasize how important they were as translators and actually not only as cultural translators, but as literal translators. So that means that several South Asian sources were translated into English and they were translated by South Asian members of the Theosophical. So in the first place, that's great because the several texts were translated and were accessible for a larger audience, but at the same time, these texts were translated with a certain religious and ideological purposes. So it was not neutral translations. It was translations aimed at promoting the theosophical agenda. So that's why it's always important to remember that these very first translations of South Asian sources on Kundalini were theosophically colored.

[A]

Can you just say, like, the. Just briefly, like, what their overall agenda was? I mean, to me, one of their. One of their big points that they were trying to make is that all religions point in the same direction, that Asian religions were particularly mystical or particularly powerful in their transformative. I mean, and these are popular ideas about Asian religions that we still have in the West. I think we still have this. These kind of, like, theosophical orientations or viewpoints. So can you just maybe like, give us just a crystallization of. What do you mean when you say they're translated in a way that is theosophically oriented?

[B]

So like the Theosophical Society, and mainly like one of their co founders, Madame Blavatsky, imagined that there was a core to all religions. And this very core, if you want this most mystical aspect of each religion, this must be rediscovered in order to create a universal religion. And with this universalist perspective, there was also social aspect. So it was imagined that peace among men and, yeah, brotherhood, as they called it, would be realized if this perennial knowledge and wisdom was shared among people of the world. And Kundalini, for example, would be one aspect of this. And that's why translations by South Asian theosophists were important to the overall philosophical agenda, because it was one of the many aspects that they wanted to rediscover, to share among humankind. So it's just this aspect idea of Hindu religions and of Kundalini being like this perennial knowledge, this perennial wisdom that made these translation not very neutral. That's also why, for example, Hindu reformers and Hindu nationalists had had an equal interest in Kundalini during the last two decades of the 19th century, because they also considered Kundalini as one of these core ideas of a supposed Vedic religion, so of a very primordial religion. So we have different players who were interested in Kundalini for very different reasons.

[A]

So this is the backdrop and the context in which Arthur Avalon, this team of Bengali and European translators, are producing the work. Serpent Power. Right?

[B]

Yeah. And the Arthur Avalon team started publishing translations of South Asian texts in the early 20th century century. There's already two decades of interest in Kundalini by members of the Theosophical Society before we witnessed the publication of Arthur Avalon's publications. It's important to remember that they were not the initiators of Kundalini. They just happened to write a book that became really popular. And by the way, it became also really popular because members of the Theosophical Society of the second generation of Theosophists interested in Kundalini would promote the book, would use the book. So we have again this Theosophical momentum with this very, very popular book by Arthur Avalon. And then also we have other important protagonists, for example, CG Jung, who also used Arthur Avalon's books. It's sometimes I find it interesting how certain books are just, just so known to a very wide public, whereas other books who are equally interesting from a historical perspective are just faded into oblivion. So it's Arthur Avalon's Serpent Power, for several reasons, became one of the core books on Kundalini of the 20th century.

[A]

I don't know if you see it this way. Maybe it's too oversimplified, But I'm seeing sort of one stream of transmission of Kundalini from the South Asian texts through the Theosophical Society and that whole milieu into the mainstream of European and North American spirituality. You can hear resonances today in New Age and Spirit, other spiritual circles in the west that clearly are drawing on that stream. Gopakrishna is in a different stream, though, right? Because so so far all we've talked about is Kundalini is this dynamic God, this serpent energy, et cetera, et cetera. We haven't really gotten the picture that. That this is a potentially destabilizing and potentially horrific experience. Is Gopakrishna really the sort of the first place where we get that kind of discourse? Or is there. Are there precursors to him as well?

[B]

Let's talk about the dark side. From my research, I would argue that there's three waves of Kundalini's modern transmission. And Gopi Krishna would initiate the third wave. The first wave is restricted to South Asia and is South Asian theosophist. The second wave would be the Arthur Avalon publication project. And the third wave, which approximately lasts from the late 1960s to the early 1990s. And so this third wave is the most broad. So we are having now the South Asian, we're having the European, we having the American venue. But then we're also having other areas where Kundalini starts to become a thing. For example, Japan or Brazil. So the third wave of Kundalini's transmission is really the richest in term of its variation. And that's also where Kundalini starts to be discussed as a rather problematic force. With Gopi Krishna's account, it's the first time that we are reading about Kundalini as a force that really leads to something devastating. It's something that leads to physical and also psychological issues to the extent that Gopi Krishna was fearing for his life. So I really consider his 1967 book, Kundalini the Evolutionary Energy in Man, as a pavotal moment in the transmission history of Kundalini.

[A]

So maybe we should just describe what he lays out in his autobiography about his experiences with Kundalini. A whole range of overwhelming spiritual experiences, physical ailments, psychological destabilization. A whole sort of cluster of symptoms that I don't know if he used the term, but at some point later in history, they started using the term Kundalini syndrome to refer to these kind of. These clusters.

[B]

So Gopi Krishna was a South Asian pandit. He grew up in Kashmir in the northwest of India. He lived in a religious family. He was meditating from a young age. But he lived a pretty conventional life. And everything changed on a momentous morning in December 1937. He describes this morning in great detail in his book. Because on this morning, as every day, he was meditating. Usually he meditated for two to three hours in the very early morning before he would start his job. So he was an experienced meditator by then. He was about, I think, 34, in his early 30s. So what happened? He had a very strange sensation during meditation. Later on he would interpret this sensation and this experience as his initial Kundalini awakening. But back then he had not heard of Kundalini. He did not know what was going on. He just noticed that something was really off. The experience itself, he describes it over only two, three pages. And the rest of the book just discusses the period after his experience. And now we're talking about not days, not weeks, not months, but years. So he, in very great detail talks about the faces after his initial experience. And some of the faces, nothing really happened. And others were really intense. Intense in the sense that he describes physical and psychological pain. He describes how he was losing his mind. He describes how he had very intense physical sensations. Sensations like fever, like shivering, really bad stomach ache. So just like a very detailed, over several decades lasting report of the condition following his initial experience. And so that's very interesting because he provides the reader with a report of somebody who was unaware of what was going on with him. That's also very important. He was not part of a specific yoga school. He really described himself as an ordinary man who was meditating and who was religious, but not part of a specific lineage. And many, many people in Europe and the US could associate themselves with him because if he was of a specific lineage, it would be very limiting. But since he was opening up to whoever was meditating and whoever was experiencing something extraordinary, they could associate with Gopi Krishna. And that's why I think his book became so incredibly popular, because it was not limited to Hindu practitioners. It was not limited to a specific yoga school. It was really open for everyone. It's also very remarkable that his book was published only 30 years after his initial experience. So as a reader, you could imagine it took him like 30 years to process what he was doing. And that gave him also a sense of authority.

[A]

Yeah, great. Thanks for, thanks for going through that. I'm aware of lots of different social media groups and lots of different, you know, support groups, online organizations where people either self diagnosed or assessed by somebody else, they have claimed the name Kundalini Syndrome and gathered together in groups to support each other through that. And there's a whole sort of discourse around the mental and physical problems and treatments and therapies and approaches and so forth. So this is like another aspect of Kundalini that's still very much alive in our culture today. One of the things that you're interested in is in the science of Kundalini or how it becomes medicalized. You could say how it becomes an object of scientific and medical interest. And clearly Gopi Krishna's narrative kind of moves us in that direction. Reinterpreting Kundalini as a set of debilitating symptoms.

[B]

Yeah, we perhaps could talk of a fourth transmission wave in the 21st century, when the Internet starts to play a role and social media starts to play a role. That's definitely something for potential future research to look at these very modern approaches. Approaches to Kundalini. Yeah, the Kundalini Syndrome. I mean. Yeah, we can talk a lot about that. That's like a whole big story in itself. It was not Gopi Krishna who came up with it, and I'm pretty positive that he did not use the term. But his book was definitely an inspiration for the people who coined the term. And it was Itzhak Bentoff and Lisa Kneller. And we would open a whole new box here. The Kundalini Clinic in San Francisco. It was very interesting. During my research, I realized the Kundalini Clinic kept on popping up in several books and several archival resources. But I couldn't really find any publication that was clearly writing about the Kundalini Clinic, what it was, who founded it, when it was founded. So I had quite some difficulties to gather all the information. And that's also why I had. Why I conducted two interviews with two figures associated with the Kundalini Clinic. So whatever I'm sharing now is like a mix of archival resources, published books, and also information gathered from interviews. So the Kundalini Clinic was founded in the early 70s or mid 70s. It's. I'm still not utterly sure if it was 1974, 1975. I have conflicting information. So even the figures involved its founding, even. Even this piece of information is not utterly clear. But one version of the story talks about Lee Sanella, Gabriel Cousins, and Harald Strikefeld. All three were psychologists, and all three had an interest in religious or spiritual aspects. And all three were not really part of, but at least interested in, ideas shared by the anti psychic movement. The anti psychiatry movement was a movement that was founded or that started off in the United States and that challenged the definitions of mental illness. And not only the definitions, but also the practices. So psychiatry as a whole was questioned in a sense that the members of the anti psychiatry movement imagined that psychiatry would misdiagnose a lot of conditions as schizophrenia or other mental diseases. And they just wanted to raise awareness that there were other sources that might lead to A condition that may resemble as a mental disease. And in that light, also these three psychiatrists or psychologists, Saneller, Cousins and Stratford, they believed that a lot of patients diagnosed with schizophrenia might be people who experienced a Kundalini awakening. Okay, so this is like the context and the background of why three men decided to open an institution that was aimed at treating patients who had an extraordinary experience which led to mental and also physical distress, stress.

[A]

Yeah, I just want to put a pin in that right there. And refer listeners to our interview with Richard Saville Smith, who's a historian of psychiatry and religions. And he talked with us a lot about the shades of gray, let's say, between those two discourses. How do we draw lines between spiritual experiences and psychosis, and maybe how contingent those lines are, and maybe how should they should be rethought and redrawn? So we had a great conversation with him about a lot of those topics. So people interested in that issue can take a listen over there. Yeah, sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt, but please continue.

[B]

Yeah, so we are in the 1970s, and these three men meet and they open the Kundalini Clinic. We're talking about a Victorian house somewhere in the center of San Francisco. So we are talking about a very small institution. And I think that the Kundalini Clinic would not be addressed anymore by people interested in Kundalini if it wasn't for Lee Sanaler's book Kundalini Psychosis or Transcendence. He published a book in 1976, and this book became incredibly popular and important. I would argue that aside from. Or I would argue that next to Arthur Avalon's the Serpent Power, Lisa Kneller's book might be the third most important book in the transmission history of Kundalini. And so why is it so important? Or what is the core statement by Sanello? So he distinguishes kundalini from mental disease. So he says that despite sometimes outward resemblance, Kundalini and mental disease are two different things, and you should not confuse them. And the problem is that it is confused a lot. And that's why the mental institutions are just filled with individuals who are basically suffering from a Kundalini awakening. And to make a point, he came up, or let's say he popularized the concept of kundalini. It was not him who founded or who initially came up with this concept. It was his really good friend, Itzhak Bentov. Itzhak Bentov is a fascinating figure, Israeli origin, emigrated into the U.S. basically, an engineer who invented several machines who had very interesting ideas on consciousness. And on how consciousness, the universe and the physical body are all kind of related. Different story for a different day. But what's important for us is to know that he had a Kundalini experience and wanted to make sense out of it. And so he came up with the idea of a physical physiological Kundalini syndrome. And he shared his idea with Lisa Kneller who eventually systematize it all in the sense that he created a list of very specific signs and symptoms. And this gets back to your previous question on the phenomenological aspects of Kundalini. And so these signs and, and symptoms would be a next chapter after Gopi Krishna's very detailed descriptions how one has to imagine a Kundalini experience. And so Lisa Kneller's main idea was to help people who had a distressing Kundalini experience to understand that this is this what they are experiencing is not a mental disease, but it is actually a Kundalini experience. It's a very interesting approach to how distinguish Kundalini from a mental disease. And by the way, that that's different from Gopi Krishna because Gopi Krishna in an interview he clearly said that Kundalini may lead to mental disease. It may be a mental disease. And Lisa Nella and it's a bentoff taking a different direction. And they say no, it's not a mental disease, it must be distinguished from mental diseases.

[A]

Your research has been historical and it stops at a certain point in the 80s. But if you fast forward to today, where is the psychiatrist psychological scholarship on Kundalini syndrome? You know, in 2026, what's changed in the psychological understanding of these things?

[B]

Kundalini still plays a role in the dsm. The Diagnostic and the Statistical Manual of mental disorders. The fifth edition was published in 2012 and there was a release revised edition in 2022. This manual is published by the American Psychiatric association. And from its 4th edition it added one category that looked at religious and spiritual problems. And one aspect of this category was also Kundalini. David Lukoff, one of the co authors of this fourth edition, he included Kundalini as one of these spiritual problems. And to my knowledge this has not been changed also in the fifth edition. And since this manual is widely used by medical professionals, it's widely used by researchers and mental health professionals. Kundalini still plays a role, you could say, in this medical context.

[A]

Okay, so we've gone through these different waves of the transmission of Kundalini. So far we have not yet talked about the brand that's called Kundalini Yoga. What's going on with Yogi Bhajan and the Kundalini Yoga people. How do they fit into this story.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That we're telling about Kundalini.

[B]

Kundalini Yoga as taught by Yogi Bhajan. I clearly position in the third wave of Kundalini's transmission because in this transmission phase there's like a lot of traveling yogis, traveling, traveling swamis who do travel from South Asia to Europe and the US to share the knowledge. And so Yogi Bhajan is just another of these traveling yogis. However, he was very good in marketing his very specific ideas. So that's why Kundalini Yoga today is very well known. I believe that there is barely any city without a Kundalini Yoga school. Kundalini Yoga as taught by Yogi Bachchan did not play a major role in my research as I consider him as just one of many important characters in this transmission history. But it does highlight a different kind of darkness in terms of Kundalini given all the scandals, all the like, all the information on the abuse that happened as part of this yoga school. School. So it's kind of like the dark side of Kundalini Yoga. Not so much in the sense of the experience of Kundalini, but more of the infrastructure that was created around a very specific school.

[A]

Have we missed or skipped over any kind of important ingredients in the transmission? And this, the history that we've been talking about here, is there, are there any holes that we need to go back and fill in what we've talked about?

[B]

Oh my God, there's so much. But I think one, one aspect that I would like to highlight since we talking about the problematic aspects of Kundalini or its link to psychological problems. So I think when talking about this topic one must mention Christina Grof. Christina Grof was the second wife of Stanislav Grof. She was very influential in the Esseln Institute where she lived and taught. So Christina Grof is particularly important since it was her who found founded the Spiritual emergency network in 1980 at the Esalen Institute which was by the way renamed into the Spiritual Emergence Network later on. Just a side note, and why is it important when talking about the transmission history of Kundalini? It is important because Christina had several extraordinary experiences during her life which she later reframed as Kundalini experiences. So these experiences were the basis and the reason why she thought it was important to found a network that would support individuals suffering from similar distressing experiences as she was undergoing. So the Esalen based Spiritual Emergency Network can be directly related to the Kundalini experience of Christina Graph. And at the same time it led to a larger recognition of Kundalini as something that resembles psychosis. So we have again the same narrative as with the Kundalini Clinic and also as with the anti psychiatry movement, that the Kundalini experience may be a distressing experience and it may resemble psychosis or mental diseases. So it's just another very interesting example of how kundalini and mental disorders were very much entangled in the second half of the 20th century.

[A]

Let me get your thoughts on something. So you know, when you're telling this history, the early players in the story, Arthur Avalon, Gopi Krishna, even up to Lee Sanila, Yogi Bajan, primarily male figures. But when I think about today, kind of the people who are out there as spokespeople for Kundalini support, let's say, through organizations like, like Christina Grof's Spiritual Emergence Network. You know, I'm thinking of people like Bonnie Greenwell and Yvonne Kasa. I'm not sure how you say her name. I'm thinking about Tara Springett. I'm thinking about Joan Harrigan. People who are out there sort of promoting the idea that this is a dynamic that can occur during spiritual practice and that there are techniques and support for people. It's largely a female world. And so I'm wondering just in terms of the gender aspect of Kunaly, after all being a goddess, this, after all being this feminine archetype of Shakti or energy or what have you. I'm just wondering if we can just open that can of worms for a minute and just talk about the role of gender in all of this. Strikes me that maybe there's some. Something interesting going on there, but I can't quite put my finger on it. So can you open that up a little bit?

[B]

Yeah. So I think the role of gender in terms of the. If you want the esoteric milieu or these alternative religious milieu has generally changed. Nowadays, as you just correctly stated, we have female spokespersons. And this is something that is rather new, like the last two or three decades. So I don't think that this is specifically in terms of Kundalini, but generally in the alternative religious milieu. We do see that not only the spokespersons, but also the practitioners are increasingly women who are practicing, who are conceptualizing, who are leading the discourse in the second half of the 20th century. But I think whoever is the spokesperson of the discourse must be distinguished from the experience itself. The experience of Kundalini, despite it being depicted as A female energy as a goddess is independent of the gender of the person experiencing Kundalini. So because the basic idea is that the female and male components of Shakti and Shiva reunite, so both of these divine components are present in the human body. And in that sense it does not matter the gender of the person experiencing it. So I think we need to distinguish these two discussions. Like the one discussion is who is experiencing Kundalini, and the other discussion is who is the. The spokesperson of a certain discourse.

[A]

Maybe first, before I ask you what you think, what is the state of the art in modern interpretations of Kundalini? A contemporary medical, biomedical, scientifically based perspective certainly doesn't think that there's a goddess that lives in your spine. And I've heard all kinds of different speculations about, you know, is it the vagal nerve? Is it some other kind of like anatomical structures that are responsible here? What do we think is happening, happening when somebody talks about this kind of welling up of Kundalini in the spine in general?

[B]

I think if you would ask a doctor what's going on in the body when Kundalini rises, it's too. It's not just only two different languages. It's really two different worldviews that are collapsing. I don't think that it makes sense to pose this question to a secularly thinking doctor who is not allowing religious or spiritual component to be added to their diagnosis. There are obviously like. Also the medical community is not as uniform as we want to think. There are for sure medical persons who would integrate a certain allowance of religious reasoning. But in general, I don't think that you would get a satisfying response response from a doctor. Like the vagus nerve, for example, continues to play a role in conceptualizing Kundalini, but definitely not on the part of doctors. That's something that the New age movement picked up, something that has become a very popular arguing for Kundalini's existence, for Kundalini's functioning. But it's two different, very distinct world views. Who we are approaching here? Here.

[A]

Well, so then let me ask you then, what purpose the discourse of Kundalini is serving? Because I also see Kundalini discourse as belonging to a different epistemology, a different worldview than medical biomedical science. There's a lot of people that are trying to connect these two, though, at least on the practitioner side, that are trying to find biomedical correlates for Kundalini or somehow explain Kundalini scientifically. That leads to a lot of, lot of, let me say, maybe like less than convincing articulations of those two worldviews. So I guess I'm just wondering what to make of Kundalini more broadly. And I'm wondering if. If that's one of the main roles that Kundalini has in our contemporary society as a location for the negotiation between spirituality and science. I'm sure you've thought about this. So I don't know if I'm necessarily using the same terms that you might. And feel free to take this question in a different direction. But I'm just thinking about sort of Kundalini as an ob or a discourse for, or a location for the navigation of these differences in worldview and what you make of that.

[B]

So I think what I associated most with like the modern perception of Kundalini is therapy. So the therapeutization of religion is. Is a process that we in general can observe in the second half of the 20th century and until today. And I feel like, like Kundalini was mainly used for therapeutic reasons. Be it like to overcome a psychological crisis, be it to overcome a spiritual crisis. It may also be that Kundalini itself leads to this crisis. But then the crisis itself is considered as therapeutic in the sense the crisis being the momentum that leads to spiritual evolution, that leads to an enhancement of the potential. And Kundalini plays a role in several of these modern processes. Obviously also the psychologization of religion that we've talked a lot today. But I really feel like that this religio therapeutic context is where I see Kundalini most vividly in the second half of the 20th century.

[A]

So if I'm a practitioner, let's say I suddenly now I'm having this sort of upward rising kind of intensity, body sensations and maybe some gastrointestinal stuff as well, and some headaches. Kundalini is available as a concept for me to discover or to reach out and adopt and identify. And now I've. I've not only explained my symptoms but also gained a new community of support. And I've also though, gained a whole sort of spectrum of different kinds of practices and so forth that might help with that. I've also adopted a new identity as a sufferer of Kundalini syndrome. And I've kind of. It kind of enables me to enter into this whole therapeutic world that has a new vocabulary and a new. A new epistemology for me to make sense of what I'm experiencing. Is that kind of what you're thinking of when you say like a therapeuticization of spirituality is that it provides a therapeutic framework for my Experience experiences in order to help me to navigate them.

[B]

Yes, I think so. It's interesting that you come up with the example of a practitioner because I was, in my head, I was more thinking of perhaps the therapist themselves who would work with the practitioner. So it's a wonderful addition to hear your thought on what I've just communicated. So I think that works perfectly what you just said. And it's a, it's great to. Yeah. Have a different take on this therapeutization of Kundalini from, from a practitioner's perspective. So thank you. I appreciate.

[A]

So I'm a historian as well, a historian of religion like you are historian of religion and medicine. So often I feel like the historian's job is to deconstruct the concept and to show, oh, look, it's this socio historical construct that was sort of invented or developed over time. And we kind of leave it there in a way that can be deflating and unhelpful for the contemporary people who use these concepts. So just to come, to finish, finish with, okay, yeah, it's a historically contingent, constructive concept in all the ways that we've just talked about, but yet there is some utility to it. Right. Like these are the ways that it can be useful for different groups of people to have this concept that they can fall back on. I think it's useful to add that at the end, after we've deconstructed a concept, to say. Yeah, but we're not saying it's completely useless. Right. Or, or are. Or are we? Are, are we?

[B]

No. I, I do think that countless practitioners, then and now, have benefited greatly from this concept. And I think most of my protagonists who pointed out that Kundalini is a source or carrier of crisis eventually all reached a conclusion that this moment of crisis led to something much better or much bigger. And in that sense, I think whoever practices Kundalini, whoever experiences Kundalini even from a very negative or dark perspective or in a very negative or dark manner, ultimately I think we can say that the most practitioners benefit from this concept.

[A]

Yeah, you put your finger right on it. Yeah, exactly. So it helps practitioners to reframe challenges and difficulties into opportunities for growth and opportunities for transcending the. Those issues, integrating those issues into something larger into their spiritual practice. Yeah, I mean, that's a great place to stop. Unless there's a, a caveat or a downside or a warning, because maybe the concept also has potential dangers or pitfalls. I don't know. Is there anything you would want to add, like notes of Caution wise.

[B]

Before we wrap up, always be cautious when. When dealing with powerful concepts as such. So don't take it too easy. Whoever practices Kundalini will experience pretty fast that it's something. Yeah. To be cautious about. I think in times of social media, in times of, I don't know, the sensationalism online, it's very easy to take religious concepts which are around for several hundred years on the more easy side. But I think just take this very serious and be cautious. Listen to your body. That's something that I would recommend anyone deal with dealing with whatever kind of religious concept or practice.

[A]

Yeah, I think that also applies to traditional practices too, because I've read some of the yoga texts and the way they talk about Kundalini is just, you gotta blast it and get it fired up. And we had a guest last season, Naomi Worth was talking about Tibetan Buddhist yoga and she was talking about how they were like, bouncing on their muladhara chakras in order to, like, release the energy and get it to like, open up. And some of those traditional practices to me seem. Seem rather dangerous, I guess, if you're in a framework where you have people that know what they're doing. Maybe not, but it just seems. Yeah. Like we. We should approach spiritual practice with a lot more caution, not just blast the Kundalini open.

[B]

Yeah, caution and respect. I think these, these two rules, like, never forget.

[A]

So. Yeah. And so, you know, if. If there are practitioners who are looking for. For support with weird experiences or whatever. I do know that Christina Grof, Spiritual Emergence Network is still around, but there's also other organizations like the Spiritual Crisis Network, Spiritual Emergence Anonymous, there's also Cheetah House. The Cheetah, like the, like the cat. I guess they're more specialized in meditation specifically. And the American center for the Integration of Spiritually Transformative Experiences is another organization too. So. So, so these organizations are out there that are specifically geared towards helping practitioners who are having weird spiritual experiences. Difficult, challenging, potentially medical crises. To make sense of that, to have support around that, to have a community, to have advice. While we're talking about this issue, let's just put that out as a. As a PSA for our listeners. Yeah, great. So we will definitely include links in the show, notes to your own publications and all their work. Do you have a central website or location where people can go to get sort of a picture of the various things that you've published and so forth?

[B]

I'm using Academia. Edu. I don't know if that's.

[A]

Yeah, that's great. We'll link to your academia page. So I guess then, I mean, all that's left to do then is to say goodbye. And thank you very much for.

[B]

It was great. Thank you so much for inviting me. It's. It's so interesting to, yeah, just hear, like, new questions because it also made me think about new aspect. So thank you very much. I really enjoyed this. That's it for today from us at the Black Barrel Podcast. If you're listening to us on one of our partner podcasts, you can subscribe directly to us for ad free episodes or look us up on substack to check out members only benefits. This episode is hosted by Pierce Algero and produced and edited by Me, Lan Le. Our music is by Jonathan Pettit. Until next time, be happy, be safe, and be well.

[A]

Sam.