Brad Smith (2:56)

Oh I hope so Holly.

Holly Gattery (2:59)

Yeah, this is going to be a fun show, especially for any listeners who happen to live in Ontario. So speaking of Ontario, for those of you who don't know much about Brad or want to know more about him, Brad Smith was born and raised in southern Ontario, hamlet of Canfield a couple hours southwest of Toronto. As a child he had a huck fish in existence, building rafts and catching frogs and falling off a spike with regularity. He grew up on stories both oral and written, reading the hockey books of Scott Young and listening to the old timers in the village. This is like I said, Brad's newest novel, but it is certainly not his first. Brad has such a wonderful long and colorful history of publishing some really fascinating books and I actually ordered a few from your back list from my local independent and I'm looking forward to diving into those because this one really had me hooked. Brad now lives in a 90 year old farmhouse near the north shore of Lake Erie. As someone who also lives in a super old house, mine's 150 year old schoolhouse, I sympathize with the plight of farmhouse old house living. It's so much fun and it's so constantly amusing. Brad, let's dive right in because I know a little something about this book that maybe our listeners are, I'm say definitely our listeners don't know if they haven't heard of the book before, but I've had the pleasure of talking to you about this book before and I do know that this is inspired by some of the scandal written politics in Ontario and I would love for you to tell our listeners about that.

Brad Smith (4:33)

Yeah, it's to deal with the green belt issue. I live in a rural area as you do you just mentioned and a couple of years ago it became a pretty big story in the news and our premier is currently under investigation right now by the RCMP because of what happened. There was a bunch of land at that point north of Toronto which was all farmland that was at some point being bought up by various developers and for some strange reason, or maybe not such a strange reason, after they acquired the farmland, suddenly things began to get rezoned. So you just can't buy a farm and start building houses. As you know from where you're from, it's a zoning issue, and you just can't do that. But if that land is rezoned, then these developers have free reign to go in and start building, usually subdivisions, what I like to call ant farms, because the houses are so close together, you can. You can hardly walk between them. And there were some nefarious things going on behind the scenes. Perhaps a connection, and this is alleged, of course, at this time, but perhaps a connection between the Ontario government and these realtors and developers who were going to benefit by these rezoning, by these rezoning issues. So I kind of built the book around that notion. I created a fictitious city called Rose City, which is very similar to Hamilton, Ontario, and I kind of moved this green Belt scandal to that area. And so basically, the book's about. It's about my two favorite spectator sports, politics and baseball.

Holly Gattery (6:13)

And as someone who doesn't know much about baseball myself, but actually loves reading books about baseball and loves watching movies about baseball, but could not be easily persuaded to sit through an actual baseball game, I. Well, it's so slow.

Brad Smith (6:31)

Yeah, okay. I know. People really love it.

Holly Gattery (6:33)

Or.

Brad Smith (6:33)

I got. I got that.

Holly Gattery (6:34)

Yeah. Yeah. But this book is not slow. This book has a really great pace to it. It's nice and snappy. I read it in one night. Now, it was. It's not necessarily a short book, but it really has great pacing. And this is not your first rodeo when it comes to novels. You have written many others. And I was wondering if you could talk to me about pacing and how you think about pacing on a craft level, especially with a book like this, which has multiple viewpoints.

Brad Smith (7:05)

Yeah, it's. It's so important. And I think I've been fortunate enough to have an inherent gift for it. I've been told that it sounds like I'm blowing my own horn, but I. I've been told by editors, especially the editor for this book, that I have a good sense of pacing. And I. It's. It's kind of a hard thing to describe. You know, I think because it's inherent. It's sort of like being an editor. I always. I have always said I've known some great editors, but I've always said that I don't think you can go to school and learn how to become a good editor. I think you can learn how to do certain technical things, but the gift Itself is, Is pretty inherent. And I think pacing is the same way, but with me, it's. I feel like it's always a matter of keeping things moving and not. Not doing any detours. That kind of takes the reader away from the story itself. And so when you go from one chapter to the other, and particularly the way you end a chapter too, you should end it on something that really makes the reader wants to start the next chapter instead of, you know, go to bed. And when I, When I hear that somebody like you read it in one evening, that's very flattering for me. So usually my first drafts have that and the drafts after that, I seem to establish the pacing part early, but not always. And sometimes when you, when you set something aside for a month or two months before you go back to the second draft, you can kind of immediately recognize what's not working in that regard, you know, and. And that's, and that's obviously where you get the opportunity to, to, to tweak it, you know?

Holly Gattery (8:39)

Mm. Yeah. Well, I have so many questions about the characters in this book because I think that these really wonderful and lovable in some cases, like Joe. I love the character of Jo, who is the long standing, is a mayor of the. The place where Rose City, where the development wants to happen, and his daughter Kate, I found them very lovable. I found Billy lovably infuriating. Just kind of wanted to smack him around in the best possible way sometimes. And you know, Carol is just the quintessential, basically irredeemable bad guy. But, you know, there is humanity barely in there too. And there's the character of Dale, who's like Carol's lackey, who seems a lot more intelligent than he lets on a lot of times. I was. Want to start with Jo because I really loved the character of Jo. And I was wondering if you could let us know about where Joe came from. Is he. Is Joe the character still inspired by anyone in the real world of politics? Or is this a combination of people you know about or have heard about?

Brad Smith (9:58)

Yeah, Joe is not based particularly on one person, but he's. He's a throwback, you know, he's kind of the type of politician that you don't see very often anymore because he's, he's kind of folksy. He's kind of like a politician out of a 1950s movie, you know, like. Or even an earlier movie like Mr. Smith Goes to Washington or something like that. And he's, he's really folksy and he's got this. He Tells the same stories over and over again that relate to where he came from and to how he looks at running the city. He uses phrases that are not necessarily very modern and sometimes aren't even appropriate. One time he refers to Eskimos, and his daughter has to correct him about that. And he's just very much his own man. And he's not over. He's not timid by any means, but he is incredibly honest.

Holly Gattery (10:55)

And I mean, I love that for him. I mean, even when he's saying something inappropriate, it's never out of malice. It's just out of not knowing, like, being aged out of a certain time where you might actually be kept up on these certain things. And, I mean, he's definitely not flawless. He's stubborn. And, you know, I don't want to give too much away about the plot of the book, but I really. I did love him because he was such a soft spot. And maybe I'm just getting nostalgic in my old age. Maybe that's it. But I. I really like them.

Brad Smith (11:30)

My. My father, Holly, is 98 and a half. Okay. And he comes up with stuff occasionally where I go, okay, you can't say that, dad.

Holly Gattery (11:40)

Yeah, yeah.

Brad Smith (11:40)

There's a little bit of him in Joe, too.

Holly Gattery (11:44)

Oh, that's amazing. Okay, so let's also talk about Kate. He's Joe's daughter. Kate leaves her law firm in the city after something goes on. I'm trying not to give anything away after a. Not really a scandal, but let's just say a heartache. And she comes back to her hometown and, you know, things unfold, and she ends up being part of this election when it wasn't something she was really intending to be. I expected. And I can say this because it didn't happen. For some reason, I thought that Kate and Billy were going to be the interests, the love interest. Was that intentional?

Brad Smith (12:26)

Yes. And. And I will be honest with you, early on, I thought that, too. And then I shifted because it seemed a little too cliched that they would join forces to do what they do. I. I'm. Same thing. I don't want to spoil it over here. And then when. When the. The character of Jesse came along, and I know you're probably going to get to that, that was one of those characters. Every book that I've ever written, character has surprised me. And she was the surprise in this. She was only probably going to be in one or two little excerpts, you know, and all of a sudden, it's not accurate to say that a character writes Herself or himself. But I think it's accurate to say that sometimes a character reveals themselves, even to the writer, you know, and so. And so I meant what you mentioned to be a bit of a feint, you know, that you think, okay, it's going to be. It's going to be Billy and Kate, and then it's not.

Holly Gattery (13:21)

Yeah. I mean, because there's things just little. Just little Easter eggs, like him noticing or at least, you know, commenting to himself that she's attractive and everybody finds Billy attractive in the like, man child, stunted development, you know, kind of, kind of way. Like, it's obvious that the women love Billy or at least a certain kind of woman loves Billy until they become infuriated with him, as is want to happen with characters like Billy and I. Yeah, it's kind of like I was deked out there. Like it was the, you know, art of misdirection. And I. I enjoyed it. It was one of those. One of the surprises of the book, I would say, one of the minor surprises, because I wasn't going into this book thinking there would be any kind of romance. So it was. It was a nice little surprise. And, you know, as I said, it's not where the book ends up going, it's not where the love interest ends up developing, but it was still pretty interesting. And it was good to see Billi respect a woman just on the basis of respecting her. Does that make sense?

Brad Smith (14:31)

Absolutely. And somebody who gives as good as she gets and probably she's smarter than Billy, for one thing. I think obviously that's sexy. That's a smart woman is really sexy, for one thing. And Billy finds her incredibly sexy because of that. And he knows that she's smarter than him, although he would never admit it.

Holly Gattery (14:49)

Yeah, yeah, he's. He is a fun character. So let's just talk about Billy. Now. Where did Billy come from in your brain? Because he's not. Like, in one way, he seems like a archetypal character. You know, again, we have this kind of kid, you know, Peter Pan syndrome. An athlete that's aging out of relevancy, at least in terms of his ability to do the game and isn't willing to give it up yet. But there are really surprising elements about Billy, like his sensitivity, his. A really kind of adorable eagerness to impress the people he looks up to. And they're not people, you'd think. It's not like his. Necessarily his teammates, but like Jesse. He is devastated when he thinks he's letting Jesse down. And I'd love for you to talk about creating Billy.

Brad Smith (15:41)

Yeah, Billy is, I refer to him as a 40 year old adolescent in some respects. And he's, he's also simple. And I actually think that the word simple can be a, a compliment more than a, more than a dish, you know, because he's very simple in a good way. You know, if things are really black and white for him, he really just cares about baseball. I mean, the other parts of his life, drinking beer and shooting pool and pursuing women are all secondary to baseball. Been. And that's, that's been his whole life and that's kind of all he cares about. And I've known some people like that. A lot of them are. I mean, you see people, professional athletes who are like that, but I've known minor athletes who are like that too. And the thing about him being that way, when he runs up against somebody like Jesse, who is different in every way than what he's used to, he truly appreciates it because oddly enough, because of how simple he is, these things are more clear to him than it might be to somebody who's maybe a little more complicated or a little more complex, if that makes any sense.

Holly Gattery (16:49)

Yeah, it does, it does. And I guess I really appreciate that about him. But I do want to talk about how we are introduced to Billy because if there are any producers listening, this would be a fantastic film. The opening, I didn't know where this was going. I thought it opened in such a cinematic way. We have two kids on prom night and the girl won't stop talking about her dress and how expensive it was. And the guy is taking her to a party and she's just kind of arguing with him because he's like, like, listen, I didn't spend this much money on my dress to, you know, get it dirty and disgusting. But the. As they're driving, you're eating like. I didn't know how these characters were fitting into the story, but I was ready for anything. And then they come across a car in the ditch. And this is when we are introduced to our ne' er do well protagonist, Billy. And I want to know about your decision to start the novel that way. And is it how in your mind the novel was going to start, or was it one of those instances where it's a beginning that came to you near the middle or end of the book?

Brad Smith (17:59)

No, it was always going to be the beginning. To me, it was a snapshot of Billy Crawford. And you learned a lot about him in that really brief introduction. You learn that he's irresponsible he's doing a stupid thing because he had a couple of beers and he was drinking. He plays the guitar, which was a minor thing. And also he's a bit of a wise guy. I mean, even when he's on his roof in the ditch, he's cracking jokes. So to me it was like a snapshot that just established who he was immediately. For the reader.

Holly Gattery (18:38)

Yeah, I mean, I was just like, oh, Billy, grow up. Like my first thought. And it's funny because like to me, like to me, I think, oh, 40, so old. And then I realize I'm 44 and I'm like, ah, I'm older than Billy. It's, it's quite, it's quite interesting. I found it to a really wonderful cinematic, like I said, beginning to the story. It was like, it's like one of those, this isn't obviously a horror, but it's like one of those books where you start with the two teenagers and the teenager's reaction to Billy. You have the girl who's like, you've got to call the cops and the guy, the boy who's like, oh, just, I'll deal with this and just wants to get Billy out of there and not get him into trouble. And it was really, really interesting. We got two very different reactions to Billy's being irresponsible and dangerous as well. I really loved that beginning. And you don't, you don't see or hear from the kids again, nor do you need to or have to, but it was a really fascinating beginning.

Marshalls Advertiser (19:38)

Marshall's buyers are hustling hard to get amazing new gifts into stores right up to the last minute. Like a designer perfume for that friend who never RSVP'd wishlist topping toys for her kids who came too. Belgian chocolates for the neighbor, A cozy scarf for your boss and a wool jacket for your husband that you definitely did not. Almost forget. Marshalls, we get the deals. You give the good stuff even at the last minute. Find a Marshall's near you.

Ford Blue Cruise Advertiser (20:09)

Ford Blue Cruise hands free. Highway driving takes the work out of being behind the wheel, allowing you to relax and reconnect while also staying in control. Enjoy the drive in blue Cruise enabled vehicles like the F150 Explorer and Mustang Mach E available feature on equipped vehicles terms apply. Does not replace safe driving. See ford.combluecruise for more details.

New Balance Advertiser (20:39)

At New Balance, we believe if you run, you're a runner, however you choose to do it. Because when you're not worried about doing things the right way, you're free to discover your way. And that's what running is all about. Run your way@newbalance.com running so I want.

Holly Gattery (21:08)

To ask you next to read to us from the book because I would love for our listeners to get a taste of you're very light and just compelling language. Just very quick keeps everything going very funny and dry and sharp. And I was just all here for it.

Brad Smith (21:29)

So I'll just do a quick preface here. You mentioned earlier that Billy has gets involved in politics. Billy does not want to be involved in politics, but the owner of the baseball team is running for mayor as well, and he wants to. He wants to use Billy to help him win the election. So he he gives Billy no choice. If you want to keep playing baseball, you have to do this for me. So in this scene, Billy's been convinced to go on A t a TV news show similar to 60 Minutes, perhaps, and he'd be interviewed by a woman named Lisbeth Salamanca. So this is reluctant Billy being interviewed. Welcome to the show, lizbeth says to begin. I'm happy you could fit us in. I know how busy you are. Billy nods. Oh yeah. Big series this weekend against the Angels. She smiles. I wasn't referring to the baseball team. I was talking about your run for mayor in the upcoming election. We're just a month away. How's it been going? Pretty good, billy says. He thinks about the notes he's been given. The fans have been responding to our message. By fans you mean voters, I assume? Elizabeth asked. Yeah, billy says, realizing his gaffe. Fans can be voters and voters can be fans. And what are you hearing from then? Lisbeth says. What do they like about your campaign? Billy pauses. The only thing he's actually heard has been the crowd chanting his name whenever he gets a hit. That doesn't seem like a proper response now. Well, they like the idea of new blood, he decides to tell her. That isn't in his notes, but he likes the sounds of it. New blood, she repeats. Yeah, you know, somebody from outside the world of politics, somebody new to the game. Yeah, I know what new blood means, lisbeth says. You're saying that you are that candidate? Billy nods. Yes, I am. Elizabeth regards him a moment. But both your opponents, Carol Miller and Kate Simmons, are running for the first time. Wouldn't that put them in the new blood category as well? It's a valid point, Billy thinks. Apparently that's why that particular phrase isn't in his notes. Well, he can't take it back now. Well, yes, it would. It means that the fans have a choice. We have three candidates running. Auctions are a good thing. Again, when you say fans, you mean the voters, lisbeth says. Right, billy says. It gives the voters options. And I know a little bit about options. I've been a professional baseball player for nearly 20 years, so I've signed a lot of contracts, and options are usually a part of that. Lizbeth shakes her head. I don't really understand how that relates to your campaign. Well, you brought up options, billy says. Actually, I didn't, lisbeth says. You did. Okay, let's move on from this. From what we're hearing from your people, it would seem that you are pretty much in lockstep with Kate Simmons on most of the larger issues. Would you agree? I have my own opinions on things, billy says. I really don't know what her views are. Hold on, lisbeth says. Did you just say you don't know what your opponent's views are? How can that be possible? How can you suggest that you are the more viable option when you don't even know what she thinks? Billy shifts in his chair uncomfortably. I didn't say I didn't know what her views were. You did, elizabeth says. That's exactly what you said. Well, billy begins. What I meant was that my views might be different from hers. He thinks back to his notes. We need more affordable child care. We need the lrt. And I'm against the green belt thing. I mean, I'm for the green belt thing while staying green. Those are precisely Kate Simmons views, elizabeth says, before shifting gears. Let's talk about one of your other opponents. Carol Miller happens to be your boss on the baseball team, correct? Well, I wouldn't say boss, billy says. The manager is the boss on the field. Carol Miller is just the owner. Okay, lizbeth says. The fact is you're a member of the Rose City Rounders, and you're running for office against the owner of the team. Have you talked to Carol Miller about this? About the Rounders? Billy asked about the election, Elizabeth says patiently. Since you announced your candidacy, have you talked to Carol Miller about the fact you're running against him? No, billy says. I haven't even seen the man. And he never asked you to run for mayor? Lisbeth persists. He never asked me to run for anything, billy says. Lisbeth leans forward. Now, I'm asking because there's a theory out there that you got your job back with the team because you agreed to run for mayor on a platform that strongly resembles that of Kate Simmons. Ostensibly splitting the vote and opening the door for Mr. Miller to win the election. Wow, that's a crazy theory. Billy says. Where'd you hear that? Frankly, just about everywhere Elizabeth says. Is there any truth to it? I'll tell you what's true. Billy says, I got my job back with the team because I'm a pretty good ballplayer. Since returning to the lineup, I'm hitting.392. That is why I got my job back. And you're saying there is no quid pro quo with Carol Miller? Elizabeth asked, quid what? Billy says, I don't even know what that means, lady. I'm from Saskatchewan. Thank you.

Holly Gattery (26:12)

Yeah, thank you for that. I love how funny and quick it is. And one thing that. That section, that little excerpt really brought out to me and leads perfectly into one of my last questions for you is how you portray women in your writing. So both women, actually, all I'm thinking Kate and Lisbeth. But of course, there's Jesse, and then there's Billy's on again, off again, bartender hookup. All of them are smarter than Billy. All of them are smarter than all of the men. Elizabeth is so sharp, like the journalist. She's such a sharp character. She's compassionate. She goes pretty easy on Billy, considering she can see right through him. She can see right through Carol. But she can tend to go pretty easy and take the high road a lot of the time and not. Not go for the juggler, which is probably something I would do if I was given the same situation. And I was wondering if you could talk about writing women and your approach to writing women as someone who is, as far as I know, not a woman.

Brad Smith (27:26)

Well, I briefly touched on it earlier. Smart women. Smart, smart everybody are more interesting, smart characters in general. But in a case like this, I think I kind of use them to expose the hypocrisy and maybe the stupidity and. And the crookedness, for instance, when it comes to Carol Miller of these other characters. And to have somebody's really sharp and witty and they're all pretty honest to. To do that, to me, is a lot more interesting than just having, like, a cardboard character. I mean, I just could have made her, you know, a standard news reader or something like that that didn't have any interesting questions. But she's got that sense of humor about her, and she kind of. She kind of takes the mickey out of. Out of Billy without embarrassing him, though, you know, and one of the reasons she does go easy on him, like you mentioned, is because she's really Loathe to do anything that would help Carol Miller because he's a. He's a pretty reprehensible character.

Holly Gattery (28:26)

And I think the, the thing that really got me thinking, if we take this book and look at it as a mirror for what goes on in politics all over the world today, not just in Ontario, but everywhere, is how a lot of these people, a lot of these reprehensible people, politicians, crooked politicians, are doing really reprehensible things, but like, not even really discreetly. Like it's fairly obvious that they're doing it if people actually would just pay attention. And there's a collective apathy that seems to make the. Paying the slightest bit of attention to the, the rot that exists. I mean, it's not even right below the surface. It's pretty much right there for everyone to see. It was for me a very fascinating exploration of the injustices that we just ignore that aren't even remotely barely concealed. Is this something that as you were writing the book, that you were thinking to yourself? Because, I mean, maybe I'm just pretending to be smarter than I am, but I started to, I read your book and then I was looking around and thinking about everything else that goes on in the world and thinking, God, they're not even trying to hide how horrible they are. They're not even. These aren't devious mastermind plans. This is just them, you know, politicians assuming that people are too preoccupied or apathetic to care about anything.

Brad Smith (30:05)

Yeah, I, I really believe that 10 years ago this book would, would have been much different because things have gotten so much more blatant and exactly what you were referring to, so obvious and so blatant in the last 10 years. And the world has gotten. I hope this isn't just me getting old and cranky, but the world has gotten a lot meaner in the last 10 years. And a lot of it is because of what's been happening in the States. And you do see so many things that are under the table, underhanded, that aren't sneaky at all. Like, it's just so obvious to anybody looking at it what's going on. And that's where a guy like Carol Miller comes from. And Carol Miller resembles a key. A very big political figure in the United States right now almost to a T. You know, the way he talks about himself constantly and he's the smartest person in the room. And all that is, is very much taken from the headlines of any newspaper you pick up every day. And it's. And I really believe that it's. It's. It's a more recent development. I don't remember things being like this 10 years ago or 20 years ago. That it's just. Even the green belt thing was with the Ontario government and the developers and stuff north of Toronto. I mean, it wasn't. It wasn't very well hidden at all what was going on. You know, you go in one day and you. And you buy a farm, and then three months later, all of a sudden, that thing is zoned as residential. And then it turns out that you have connections to certain people in Queen's Park. I mean, that's. That's pretty obvious stuff, you know?

Holly Gattery (31:32)

Yeah. I felt like Lisbeth was a little bit the kid in the Emperor's New Clothes story. Like, you know, the emperor is naked. Like, what are you talking about? Everybody. Like, I think what an infuriating position to be in where you can see very clearly that this guy is parading down the street naked, but everybody else is pretending he's dressed in beautiful robes. Like, it's a really. You know, she's like. Everyone's saying this. What do you mean? Like, we're saying to Bill, to Billy about the reason he's running is splitting the vote between Kate and him running on the same platform as Kate. Like, she's like, yeah, it's very obvious. And I thought, I think to the people who are lucid enough to see what's going on. And of course, I'm saying society's collective apathy, but of course, there are people who are very awake and very aware of what's going on. It's an. It's an infuriating situation. And I really did love this book for the way that you just laid bare everything and created characters who, like, scratch that itch of. This person's not good. This person makes me feel safe and comfortable. This person is the vigilante I need right now. Like, it scratches all those itches, but they're also complex and fully realized character, which leads to the last character that I really want to talk about, who is Dale. So Dale is someone who, again, is Carol's lackey. He gets a lot of guff from Carol, puts up with it, but he's. He's definitely submissive, but I don't think he's stupid. And I would love for you to talk about creating Dale, because, I mean, I don't like him, but I want better for him.

Brad Smith (33:17)

Yeah, he's. He's an interesting guy because he is really smart and he's. And he's one of those guys who's got a head full of trivia, you know, which I'm sort of like that myself sometimes I say I have a head full of useless information. And that's where Dale knows all about baseball, and he knows all about history and he knows about movies. And of course, the man that he basically works for and kneels down in front of every day knows nothing about any of that. But he's. But he's convinced that he's 100 times smarter than Dale. But he's not. And so there's something. But there's something missing in Dale that he would, you know, allow himself to be used like this. And I've known people like that as well. You know, you just look at them and you say, why are you doing this? I mean, why don't you just walk out the door? But there's. There's something missing in him. And I don't delve into his background too much. I. I started to, but I didn't. But, you know, with somebody like that, is it. Something would happen. When he was growing up, did he come from a crummy family? Was he an orphan? Or you just wonder why somebody needs to put himself out there for the kind of abuse that he takes from a guy like Carol Miller. When you. At some point, you would think he would just go. You just go to hell, and he would walk over the door, but he doesn't.

Holly Gattery (34:31)

I was waiting for the moment to happen that he did just, you know, give the proverbial bird and walk away. And it didn't happen. And I wasn't upset it didn't happen. Because if we look again around us in life, there are a lot of very smart people who are submissive to really not smart people in positions of power. And that's how the not smart people in positions of power stay there. Because they have people who support them who are maybe logically intelligent, rationally in some ways, but are missing something key. Like you said, there's just something missing. That puzzle piece that would make them a real boy. It's just not quite there. And I found that as much as I wished better for Dale, I hoped better for him. I also felt, as a woman reading this is that it's not my job to fix you, Dale. You can. I'm okay. Like, that feels. It feels authentic that you would continue to be incredibly broken and, you know, live your life under the thumb of this terrible person. Carol. So my last question for you, and one that I'm excited to ask, is, what are you working on now?

Brad Smith (35:52)

I'm actually working on two things. I'm just finishing a book that takes place in Moose jaw in the 1920s, and it's sort of a semi comedic take on the story that Al Capone used to spend time. Moose jaw in the 1920s was called Little Chicago, even though the, the population was only like 25, 000 people or something like that. Prohibition ended in Canada before it ended in the States. So the Americans started coming into Canada obviously to buy booze and smuggle it across the border. And I've all I've known for years that Al Capone supposedly hung out in the these more seedy locations in Moose Jaw. But when I started doing research on it, I'm not sure that ever happened, which made it more interesting. So I'm. I've written a book about was he there or was he not there? And most of the stories about him being there are, are stories like, oh yeah, my grandfather used to cut his hair. My great uncle used to play poker with him. But there's no real proof that he ever was. So I'm kind of having a lot of fun with that. And I'm thinking about. I'm just putting some notes together on a new book that takes place in Ontario again and again. It has a little bit to do with some zoning, but this one would be in cottage country, but that's very preliminary right now.

Holly Gattery (37:09)

Well, I can't wait to read these books. I'm a big fan. Well, I mean, everybody knows. I think by now I'm a big fan of Canadian literature, but it really has more to do with. I'm a fan of celebrating the stories that are happening where we are and celebrating what is around us right now and not always thinking we have to look to other places. Places that maybe historically, you know, colonially or you know, through the Western gaze have been given importance like Big Metropolis. I'm really fascinated in just what happens where we are living. And so I think that's what draws me to ideas like what you're talking about in Moose Jaw. Not that I live in Moose Jaw, but it is Canada and why I'm interested and was so interested in Billy Crawford's Double Play, which again, for everyone listening, is Brad Smith's latest book which is available wherever books are bought or borrowed and was published by the wonderful Walzack and Wen. Brad, thank you so much for joining me today on nbn.

Brad Smith (38:10)

Well, my pleasure. Thanks very much, Hilary.

Monster Energy Advertiser (38:26)

Monster Energy. Everybody knows White Monster Zero Ultra. That's the OG it kicked off this whole Zero sugar energy drink thing, but Ultra is a whole lineup now. You've got Strawberry Dream, Blue Hawaiian Sunrise, and Vice Guava. And they all bring the Monster Energy punch. So if you've been living in the white can, branch out. Ultra's got a flavor for every vibe, and every single one is Zero Sugar. Tap the banner to learn more.