Podcast Summary:

New Books Network
Episode: Brahim El Guabli, "Desert Imaginations: A History of Saharanism and Its Radical Consequences" (UC Press, 2025)
Host: Ibrahim Fawzi
Date: January 28, 2026

Overview

In this episode, host Ibrahim Fawzi interviews Brahim El Guabli about his book, "Desert Imaginations: A History of Saharanism and Its Radical Consequences." The discussion delves into the concept of "Saharanism" as an ideology shaping global perceptions, uses, and abuses of desert spaces. El Guabli draws on literary, political, and ecological perspectives, tracing how deserts are imagined, instrumentalized, and rendered sites of both extraction and erasure. The conversation links literature, colonialism, ecology, migration, and green futures, offering a rich, interdisciplinary take on the politics of "empty" landscapes.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Personal Roots and Intellectual Genesis (03:19–06:23)

• El Guabli's own family history—Sahrawi and sub-Saharan connections—informs the project: He realized the ideological dimension of deserts only during research, initially inspired by reading desert-focused writers Ibrahim al-Koni and Abdulrahman Munif.
  • Quote: "I was just interested in deserts...but the more I read, the more I realized that there is a conceptual void. There is no framework that is transportable between deserts...that’s how I came up with this idea of Saharanism." (04:13)

2. Why a History of Ideas About Deserts? (06:23–09:14)

• Distinguishing between the histories of deserts and the histories of beliefs about them: It's impossible for one scholar to write a total history of all deserts, but patterns of discourse and ideology shaping how deserts are treated can be traced.
  • Quote: "You can do a history of ideas about deserts by looking at the patterns...and by trying to conceptualize what that means for nuclear testing to take place in deserts...for a state to place the chemical weapon industry or the nuclear waste in a desert." (07:25)
• Deserts are often reduced to narrow, repeated clichés that justify their exploitation.

3. Defining "Saharanism" vs. Orientalism (09:14–14:48)

• Saharanism is not simply the Orientalism of the desert; it's broader and includes people within desert societies: While it shares roots in colonialism and external imposition, anyone (not just outsiders) can internalize and perpetuate Saharanism.
  • Quote: "Saharanism...is to be an ideology that undergirds everything that happens in deserts...perceptions that we have about deserts as empty, lifeless, lawless, dangerous, and exploitable..." (10:09)
  • Quote: "Everyone who has these ideas about the Sahara...engages in Saharanism and needs to desaharanize themselves to see desert under a different light." (12:53)
• Saharanism traverses global deserts; it is not a strictly European phenomenon.

4. Literary Imaginations of the Desert (15:07–21:02)

• El Guabli draws on Abdulrahman Munif and Ibrahim al-Koni as key writers who present the desert not as void but as an "ethical world"
  • Munif: Roots ethics in traditional desert relationships, critiques oil-driven consumerism and inappropriate architecture, envisions a "desert future" reconciled with local needs.
    • Quote: "He offered a different vision of a goal future that's not solely dependent on oil..." (16:10)
  • Al-Koni: Emphasizes "the unity of creatures"—desert survival is interdependent among all beings, not just humans.
    • Quote: "...Alkuni...his notion of the unity of creatures...helps us think about the creatures in the desert and how they can co-survive." (18:33)
• These authors inspire El Guabli's call for "desert ecological care."

5. Storytelling as Ecological Care (21:03–25:11)

• Storytelling animates and sustains alternative desert imaginaries, keeping alive mythological, ethical, and ecological dimensions.
  • Quote: "Storytelling is very foundational...it stages the possibility to think differently about the desert as a harsh space...there is this other desert that's dreamed of..." (21:11)
• Narratives can document harm, resist exploitation, and project new possibilities.
• Munif, for instance, starkly critiques oil regimes and destructive "progress," anticipating issues like NEOM's ecological harm.

6. Petrofiction and the Internalization of Exploitation (25:11–28:46)

• The desert is repeatedly reduced to a zone of extraction ("petrofiction")—oil, minerals, value are all beneath the sand
  • Quote: "Deserts, particularly like the Gulf, is reduced to a place where you're extracting oil...because the space is already considered empty and dead..." (25:51)
• This ideology seeps into culture—"an education you receive by osmosis," often invisible without critical language.
• Cites the power of naming phenomena (as with Edward Said and Orientalism) and the hope for Saharanism to achieve similar critical traction.

7. Naming and Language: Translating Saharanism (28:46–31:44)

• Coining equivalents in Arabic (istikhla) and English (desertism): Each term highlights different aspects—desertion of law, ethics, and environmental concern.
  • Quote: "Desertism comes from the notion of, like, deserting something...escaping the considerations that normally give some organization or discipline to your life." (29:42)
• The value of precise language in making ideologies visible and discussable.

8. Border Regimes, Migration, and the Destruction of Desert Life (31:44–35:54)

• Saharanism permits and normalizes tragedies, such as migrant deaths in deserts at US–Mexico or Sahara–Europe borders.
  • Quote: "We hear about people disappearing in deserts...the government has turned the desert into a killer...The desert becomes weaponized and it participates in the assassination of immigrants." (32:03)
• Technologies (like drones) monitor and control deserts, pushing both people and traditional lifeways to precarity ("the desert becomes a cemetery").
• The result: both human networks and broader desert life are erased by Saharanist policies.

9. Sacrifice Zones: Whose Lives and Landscapes Count? (35:54–41:35)

• Deserts serve as "sacrifice zones," their destruction or pollution overlooked compared to more visible, valued environments (like oceans)
  • Quote: "Saharanism has reduced deserts into these dead places where life is minimal or dispensable or discardable...we have to rethink life...why does desert life weigh less than sea life, for example?" (39:43)
• Double standard in environmental responses: desert disasters garner less outrage, reflecting deeper ideological hierarchies of value.
• Solutions begin with reimagining "life" and extending equal valuation to desert people and biomes.

10. Colonial, Postcolonial, and Green Futures—Continuities of Saharanism (42:37–48:51)

• The book traces Saharanism through different historical forms—spiritual, extractive, experimental, sexual
  • Spiritual: 19th/20th-century European fantasies and Islamophobia.
  • Extractive: Enslavement, mineral extraction, green energy—always taking from the desert, rarely giving.
    • Notable historical case: Early 20th-century colonial dreams of mass solar farms in Egypt (“to power...the civilized world”).
  • Experimental: Use of deserts for nuclear and chemical weapons testing, justified by desert “emptiness.”
  • Sexual: Deserts as sites of transgression and self-discovery in colonial/imperial imagination.
• Green energy projects risk repeating extractive Saharanism—solar, wind, and other ventures often displace local people and reshape landscapes, often without input from or benefit to desert communities.
  • Quote: "...the extraction of green energy...displaces people, it changes topographies, it impacts people's ways of living..." (47:19)
• Critical aim: Not despair, but awareness—“to deconstruct these practices without...being pessimistic...help people understand what’s happening in desert environments...” (48:38)

Notable Quotes

• On the project’s origins:
  "The more I read, the more I realized that there is a conceptual void. There is no framework that is transportable between deserts...that’s how I came up with this idea of Saharanism." (04:13)

• On Saharanism and Orientalism:
  "Everyone who has these ideas about the Sahara...engages in Saharanism and needs to desaharanize themselves to see desert under a different light." (12:53)

• On the power of storytelling:
  "Storytelling is very foundational because...it stages the possibility to think differently about the desert as a harsh space." (21:11)

• On the ideological roots of exploitation:
  "Deserts, particularly like the Gulf, is reduced to a place where you're extracting oil...because the space is already considered empty and dead..." (25:51)

• On migrant deaths:
  "The desert becomes weaponized and it participates in the assassination of immigrants...humans made it into an assassin, and Saharanism is guilty of this." (32:42)

• On environmental double standards:
  "Why does desert life weigh less than sea life, for example? So once we start asking these questions and...try to answer them, then the conclusion is, of course, there is no difference between these lives." (40:28)

Important Timestamps

• 03:19 — El Guabli describes the personal and intellectual origins of the book
• 06:37 — Why a history of ideas about deserts matters
• 09:33 — Defining Saharanism and contrasting it with Orientalism
• 15:07 — Literary imaginations: Munif and al-Koni's ethical deserts
• 21:10 — Storytelling as ecological care, shaping possible futures
• 25:21 — Petrofiction and the internalization of desert exploitation
• 28:59 — The challenge of translating Saharanism across languages
• 31:56 — Saharanism, border regimes, and the normalization of migrant deaths
• 36:04 — Sacrifice zones: whose lives and landscapes are expendable?
• 42:37 — Continuities of Saharanism from colonialism to "green" projects

Memorable Moments

• The critique of green energy extractivism in the Sahara (47:19): "When we talk about green energy, we're also talking about people...the extraction of green energy...displaces people, it changes topographies, it impacts people's ways of living that sometimes are masked..."

• Vision for the future (48:38): "Saharanism allows us to deconstruct these practices without...being pessimistic. The goal...is more like to help people understand what's happening in desert environments and how it came to be."

Tone and Language

El Guabli’s tone is critical yet hopeful, weaving scholarly rigor with personal reflection and storytelling. Fawzi’s questions are informed and enthusiastic, prompting deep dives without jargon overload. The language throughout is accessible but intellectually rich, alternating between conceptual analysis and concrete narrative examples.

For listeners interested in how deserts are culturally, politically, and ecologically constructed across history and into our "green" future, this episode offers a vital new vocabulary and a dynamic framework for understanding what’s at stake in the world’s supposedly "empty" spaces.