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Brooke Barbier, "King Hancock: The Radical Influence of a Moderate Founding Father" (Harvard UP, 2023)
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B
Welcome to the New Books Network.
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C
Hello everyone, and welcome to New Books and Biography, a podcast channel on the New Books Network. I'm Mark Klovest, and today I'm speaking with Brooke Barbier, author of the book King Hancock, the Radical influence of a Moderate Founding father. Brooke, welcome to the New Books Network.
- [01:50]
A
Hi, Mark. Thanks for having me.
- [01:51]
C
Well, thanks for agreeing to be on our show. I was wondering if you could start us off by telling our listeners something about yourself.
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A
Sure. I have my PhD in American History from Boston College. And in graduate school, I studied the American Revolution and the early Republic, specifically in Boston. And in 2013, I founded a tour company called Yield Tavern Tours that takes folks from all over the country to see historic sites in Boston. And then we stop in historic taverns to have a drink in each, all while talking about the revolutionary and drunken history of Boston. So I love this time period.
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C
That sounds like you're living the life.
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A
It's really fun. Yeah.
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C
So what led you to write a.
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A
Biography of John Hancock that came directly from tour guests? Actually, one of the top questions I still get is about John Hancock. He's buried in Boston, and we go to the gravesite where he's buried, and every American knows him for his signature, but people know little else about him. And they're curious to know that he's a Boston, that he was the wealthiest man in Boston, that he was so popular. And so I thought it was time to bring John Hancock into the 21st century.
- [03:10]
C
I want to ask you in particular about your subtitle because it really does point to the argument you're making in the book, because what you describe about Hancock in your book, he would seem, in so many ways, you would think he would naturally align with the British and be a Loyalist. He's a man of means. He's a man whose business depends upon the ties with the empire, the ties with Britain. And he's a person who presents himself in a manner that. That so often we associate with those people that like to identify with the British and became Loyalists. Finest fashions, finest lifestyle. And yet he becomes not just a Founding Father, but he becomes someone who, according to popular imagination, basically singles himself out for possible retribution should the revolution fail. And yet, at the same time, he's not necessarily in the same campus, say you're Sam Adams wing of the movement, but instead is in kind of what sometimes might almost seem to be an anomalous position.
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A
He really is. He's a reluctant revolutionary. And someone like you said, Sam Adams is the perfect foil to him because Hancock, unlike Samuel Adams, who's all in against the British Empire with the Stamp act passed in 1765, Hancock has far more at stake. And so while he identifies with the revolutionaries, also pulls back when he feels that they've reached a success, a tax has been lifted, or they. They feel that their grievances have been heard. And so he is very deliberate through this process. The other thing that. That is hard for us to imagine today because we know that the Declaration of Independence ultimately did lead to the colony's independence. And we are living in the United States of America today. But there was no such assurance at the time, in 1760 through 1776, that there would be success there. And so John Hancock moved more slowly through the revolution. He, like all of us, didn't know what the future held. And so, yeah, we see him being moderate both in. He's this man of kind of contradictions because, as you mentioned, he has the finest fashions and he's so wealthy, but he's a friend to the. To the lower. The lower orders. That that was what people, apprentices and seamen would be called, is as the lower orders. He's a real friend to them. And even though he's most famous, as you said, for this signature, this bold decision to Declare independence. He was actually quite moderate.
- [06:01]
C
You highlight some of the themes in your book that I want to return to later on. But I was wondering if you could start us off by talking about Hancock's background. Was he born into wealth? Was he a person who was a self made man? Where did he get his start?
- [06:18]
A
John Hancock, the one that we know, the famous one, is the third John Hancock in a row. And his father, John Hancock ii was a minister. And his grandfather, John Hancock, the original, was also a minister. So it would seem that John Hancock III would become a minister. But everything changes when John Hancock's dad d when he's seven. And he is then adopted by his wealthy paternal uncle. Uncle Thomas and his wife, Aunt Lydia had no children. And Uncle Thomas was a very successful businessman and would love for somebody to help him and then eventually take it over. So when John Hancock is a little boy, he is removed from his mom and his siblings to go live in Boston. He had grown up in Braintree, which is a small farming town where John Adams grew up. And then this young boy is thrust into this new life in Boston with this shrewd businessman as his new father figure and mentor. So it really changes his life's trajectory overnight.
- [07:26]
C
You describe this mentorship or this apprenticeship that he has in business, and I thought it was really interesting because you get a glimpse as to how, you know, business people started out at that time. And as you describe it, it wasn't exactly a smooth path. He had the benefit of his uncle's connections. He, he was in, in effect the inheritor of his uncle's business in the end. But as you describe it, he, he, he had to learn the business. He wasn't like a natural business person who just slid right in and started making a fortune.
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A
No, he sure wasn't. And he actually didn't. There was a lot of, there was a lot of bumps along the way for him. And he, he never really had this strong sense for business, it seems, throughout his life. So his uncle dies in 1764, Mark. And that's the same year that Parliament decides to begin taxing British subjects in North America and throughout their colonies. And that thus begins this no taxation without representation protests. So John Hancock loses his mentor and his father figure the same year that Parliament begins taxing. And Hancock doesn't yet have a strong enough business sense to, to grow the business the way that his uncle had for a couple of decades. And he also doesn't. It doesn't seem that he has his footing in the world yet. And all of A sudden, because his uncle has died, he's now thrust into Boston politics because someone who inherits a vast sum of money like that is seen as suitable to govern whether or not they want to or they have qualifications. And so that's when John Hancock enters politics.
- [09:16]
C
It also really highlights, I remember reading that passage, thinking to myself, how his uncle's death at that moment was so pivotal, because it comes at a moment where, you know, imagining, you know, had he lived longer, just the question of whether Hancock would have had even the latitude to go into politics like that, or whether his uncle would have taken the lead, or conversely, if his uncle had passed away earlier and Hancock had inherited the business, whether he would have had that position. It really seems to be that he comes of age, so to speak, at the very moment when he is able to make these decisions for himself from a position where his decisions really matter to events.
- [10:00]
A
Yeah, that's. That's exactly right. His. His decisions suddenly matter, and they're the only. He. He doesn't have anyone he can talk to about it, any trusted person like his Uncle Thomas. And so you really see this. This change for him at that time because he now suddenly has much more responsibility than he's ever had and more wealth. And like you said, if Thomas had lived longer, it's surely likely that Thomas would have stayed in politics and John Hancock may have not entered politics for at least a few more years.
- [10:35]
C
I'd like to pull the focus back a bit and talk a bit about Boston in 1760, because there is this question that you address in the book that needs to be included here, which is why someone like Hamilton would be involved in politics. Nowadays, we sometimes think of politics, you know, businessmen as being, yes, they're impacted by it, but they oftentimes just focus upon their business. Why was it important for a man like Hancock to be involved in politics? Why? And why did he embrace it to the extent that he did?
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A
Century British North America was a hierarchical society. And those at the top were the white, wealthy men who were typically educated and seen as the only fit people to rule. And so when John Hancock, he goes on to Harvard, graduate from Harvard, and then he becomes a partner in the house of Hancock. And then when, as we just said, Uncle Thomas dies, he inherits the business. This is exactly the type of person that you would want as a politician. In Boston specifically, there were really influential groups who met to try and decide who they would put their weight behind for the next election. And John Hancock's entry into politics is as a selectman which is sort of like a city councilor today. So he, he starts very locally in Boston politics. And I don't. It doesn't seem as if this was something he initiated. It seemed as if it was put upon him.
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C
It was basically the responsibility of his station to serve in that role. Correct, Exactly.
- [12:15]
A
Yep. And he would have understood that. Yeah. Even though he grew up, this, this is what's really interesting about him. Even though he grew up this modest country boy, a man of. A country boy of modest means, he seems to be better suited to this city life and, and life of luxury and of attention. He. He likes being noticed, he likes being appreciated. And entering into politics gives him that opportunity.
- [12:44]
C
It was one of the themes in your book that I took from it that I thought you didn't really make this explicitly. You were hinting at it. There's a bit of a showman to him. There's a bit of performativeness to him in terms of he loves the role, but he also understands he does have a role to play. And I felt like that was also part of the politics because it was expected of him. He had to do things. You don't quite delve into exactly how much he, you know, the, you know, how he kind of managed this with the finances, like how if he ever felt resentful of it because maybe the records didn't provide for it. But you do talk about how he is very much about engaging with the public as part of that, of. Part of being that man of means, part of being that leader of the community.
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A
Loved that Mark. That was the biggest, best part of this for him, was the attention that he got. Now, as you mentioned, people of Hancock Station have a certain obligation to the community to be generous at times and to lead to. To. To be involved in politics if that, if that is what the other wealthy people want. But Hancock gets something from this too. No doubt. He loves to entertain and he would. He seemed to just thrive on the attention that being the one who rolled out casks of wine to celebrate the stand Back repeal, for example, there's this big party that Boston hosts and Hancock, it all happens right in front of his house and Hancock rolls out casks of wine. And a newspaper said that he greeted everyone with cheerfulness and then he paid for a fireworks display that night. And so this is the best part about it. You can also think of someone like George Washington to contrast. Washington is, by his contemporaries, is considered quite aloof and almost standoffish and sort of stern. And Hancock just was none of those things. He was congenial and welcoming and really liked that sort of glad handing that that was not necessarily a feature or a necessity for a politician, but it helped him.
- [15:08]
C
Yet there's also this element of as well where it, this is not just a matter of his social role. This also matters to him financially because you also talk about how the role that he plays is one that is tied to his business interests as well. I was wondering if you could elaborate a bit upon how the politics of the 1760s, the Sugar act, the Stamp act and so forth impacted his business and how it is he responded to it both as a merchant and as someone involved in the politics of the community.
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A
The Sugar act and the Stamp act and particularly the Townshend duties. So those are taxes levied by Parliament in 1764, 65 and 67. They're all going to affect his business because they all have to do with trading within the British Empire. And John Hancock owns the House of Hancock which has made its fortune by trading with the British Empire and by being a good partner to those in London. The Sugar act, just to touch on briefly was a tax on foreign rum and molasses. And John Hancock's uncle had a history of smuggling when he needed to. And so the Sugar act was, was going, would be, would affect Hancock's business if he followed the letter of the law. But there was, there's a history of not following the letter of the law with the House of Hancock. The stamp, the Stamp act would, was a tax on printed goods and that would affect him as well. But the Townshend duties were the real, the real problem for the House of Hancock. The Townshend duties taxed every day in consumer goods imported from England. Clothing, tea, paper. That's exactly the House of Hancock's business. And so you see Hancock sacrifice his financial interest to participate and in fact lead one of the, the boycotts of Boston merchants. Because Boston merchants got together and said we're not going to comply with this and we're going to get all of the other colonies to hopefully comply as well with this boycott. That might sound obvious that everyone would understand, all the colonies would understand that they're more powerful together than apart. But in 1767, this is a really novel idea to have the 13 colonies work together. Were self interested colonies. They didn't see themselves as one entity, didn't recognize the power that they could have if they were one entity. But Boston merchants, including John Hancock proposed a boycott in 1768 to, to make, to render the Townshend duties moot. And this goes directly against his financial interests. Now this, this boycott has, has an effect. But other merchants in other towns, Philadelphia, New York and in Boston, start to say, okay, most of the Townshend duties were then repealed. So let's lift this boycott. Someone like Samuel Adams, who's not a merchant and who doesn't have a financial interest in this, says, no, we've got to keep this boycott going. But Hancock says, no, we're gonna, we got, we got concessions and we're gonna go forward and import. And as soon as this boycott is over, Hancock begins trading in earnest with the British Empire again. And this might surprise people that because you might think, look at what they did. They passed this tax. Don't you hate the British Empire? You're always going to hate the British Empire. But as I mentioned, the house of Hancock had amassed such a large fortune by being good partners with the British Empire. So as soon as it was politically viable, Hancock began resuming trade again.
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B
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C
And that's one of the, that gets to the major focus of your book, which is or the theme of your book, which is this notion of Hancock's moderation, which really seems to be born to the fact that he really is walking a fine line where he has his interest tied to participation in the British Empire. He cannot afford to boycott forever because that would ruin him. And yet at the same time, he has to acknowledge that as a Bostonian and to maintain his status among the citizenry, he does have to oppose the British. And you see throughout this period, as you describe how he is making these adjustments. He's at the front, he's part of the protest, but then he's also recognizing when you've achieved most of what you're going to from it. And yet he has to back off in a way that doesn't cause him to be labeled a traitor, to have the mob storming his house.
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A
It's pretty tenuous. That's right. He's walking a very fine line. He has seen firsthand other wealthy men like him have their homes and properties targeted because they fell on the wrong side of the lower orders. So he knows that he has to seem, or he, he chooses, I should say he chooses to rebel against parliamentary taxes. But he's not all in always opposing the British Empire and most people aren't at this time. I mean, I think that's the really important thing to know. It's when we look back that we feel so assured. And of course people would have kept protesting, but this ignores that really complicated reality for people who are trying to live their lives and trying to run a business or protect their family or whatever their interests may be. And so, yeah, Hancock, through 1770, he, he remains quite moderate. And actually in 1770, 71, 72, he was attempted to be recruited to become a crown ally. The royal governor of Massachusetts directly appealed to Hancock, hoping that he could persuade this very popular man to be on his side. And Hancock says, no, I'm done with politics, I've got with you. But yeah, but, but you know what's so crazy? He, he says, I'm done with you, but I'm also done with Samuel Adams. Thomas Hutchinson, the royal governor, specifically reports that Hancock says he's not going to hang out with Samuel Adams anymore. So it's. Hancock takes this complete break from politics for a few years and really wants to focus back on his business.
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C
There must have been a sense of the strain it was putting on him to do that. But you also described that this is a period where that by this point in his life, he doesn't have a wife. You get into some of his personal relationships. In this sense, this focus upon the business and politics has come at an expense and not just a financial one, but A personal one as well. And we get to that point where he's walking away from politics. It's like. I mean, I could relate to that, this idea that you can only do that for so long before it starts to take a toll. And he, as you described, he'll be. He doesn't just perform. He does enjoy the good life. And, and, and yet he had deferred that for. In, in some respects for until that point.
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A
Austin reaches this sort of fever pitch in 1770 with the Boston Massacre when five people were shot dead by British soldiers. And what's interesting, what's always interesting is that to think about is that you would think that Boston, which was the truly the rowdiest town in colonial North America, you would think that the Boston Massacre might incite more anger and more unity against the British Empire. But. But in essence, the opposite happens because most of the Townshend duties are lifted, the British soldiers get sent out of town, and Bostonians, including Hancock, want to have a moment of peace. And there's something very, like, natural about that, the idea that you would stay angry when there isn't much to be angry about. You want to go about you. You want to go about your life. And so, yeah, we really see this. Hancock's an example, but he's surely not the only one, because most of Boston calms down now. Someone like Samuel Adams does not. He sees threats everywhere. So this period of calm is not calm for him, but for others. They're grateful to go about their business and as you said, find a wife or enjoy. Just enjoy themselves.
- [25:22]
C
And so Hancock is. This is when he meets. Is it Dorothy Quincy? Yeah, Dorothy Quincy. And they're getting. And they're working towards marriage. And he seems to be, you know, fully embracing now. He's. He's approaching middle age. He's. He's. He's incredibly wealthy. He now has a wife with the prospect of children to follow. What gets. Draws him back into politics, the Tea act.
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A
And that's passed in 1773. And Mark, I bet you have an idea of what Bostonians do with the Tea act and the tea that gets sent.
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C
I have this association and it's not with China cups, so.
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A
Exactly, exactly. So Hancock in Boston is mostly quiet for three years. There's a couple things that. That caused some disturbances in 1772, but in 1773, Parliament passes the Tea act and once again, Hancock becomes politically involved. Why? Because it's going to directly affect his business. He's been one of the major tea importers for these past three years. And now the Tea act would prohibit him from being able to do that. And so he gets involved again, and in fact, in this very unlikely pairing, teams up with Samuel Adams to oppose the Tea Act. Now, John Hancock did not participate in the Boston Tea Party. Men like him were too visible, too well known to participate. But the moment before men went down to the harbor to. To dump the tea into the harbor, there was a meeting at Old South Meeting House, a building that still stands in Boston today. And Hancock gave a speech there, as did Samuel Adams, rallying the people once they knew that that royal governor Thomas Hutchinson wouldn't allow the ships to return to England. That's what. That's what. What their demand was. Hutchinson said, no, they have to. The cargo has to land to be paid. Hancock and Adams give this speech, and it's sort of a signal to folks to go down to the harbor and dump the tea in.
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C
So they dump the tea, and Hancock has what we might call nowadays plausible deniability. As you describe, he's targeted to the point where you point to his presence in the events at the. That lead to the battles of Lexington and to a lesser degree, Concord. And while you could argue that it says something about his ego, that he thought it was about him, it kind of to a degree was what role does he play in the actual outbreak of the fighting, and how does he respond to this growing escalation that leads up to. As the British basically shut down the port and demand payment.
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A
This is really interesting. So after the Boston Tea Party, Parliament passes these series of punishing laws to Boston and they send British troops to live back in Boston. And it's clear that Hancock's reputation had preceded him with these troops because an officer held captive a Bostonian and demanded to know who ordered the destruction of the tea. That's what the Boston Tea Party was called at the time. And this Bostonian says, nobody. And the officer yells, you're a damned liar. It was King Hancock and the damned Sons of Liberty. And by the way, Mark, King Hancock is the name of my book. And it comes from. This is the first time we see that nickname in his. In the record. And the officers are using it as an insult. They're saying, the best you all can do for your king is this guy, John Hancock. But it does show you how much Hancock had become known within Massachusetts, known in London, known by British soldiers. And for those in Massachusetts, he was this really popular hero. But for the British, he had become a big enemy of theirs. So eventually, Hancock doesn't feel safe in Boston anymore, and many people don't. And he goes to stay in Lexington, Massachusetts, at his cousin's house, and Samuel Adams is with him. They. They are holding political meetings in the countryside because it wasn't safe to hold them in Boston anymore. And it's ultimately, in the spring of 1775, a potential kidnapping plot of Hancock and Adams that prompts British troops to march to Lexington, and that thus begins the war. Now, I'm making that really simple, and we can break that down because the British never intended to kidnap Hancock and Adams. But when Revere set off on his famous midnight ride, his primary goal was to warn Hancock and Adams, who were staying in Lexington, that they were in danger.
- [30:32]
C
So we see now that you have this conflict that quickly gets involved. What role does Hancock now play? And to what degree has the role that he played been defined by his decade of leadership? At this point of the protest movement.
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A
In Boston, Hancock's name becomes the most. He becomes the most powerful man in Boston. If you side with the Patriots. The Patriots in Boston formed a separate government, essentially, and it was called the Provincial Congress. And Hancock was its president beginning in 1774. And that makes him, for those who believe in the Patriots and side with the Patriots, the most powerful man in Massachusetts. So this is a. This, this shows that he is now all in. There is no equivocating about which side he's on, because the Provincial Congress is an illegal government, essentially, and it's a separate government apart from the Crown government, and Hancock's at its head. And so it was the Provincial Congress that was meeting in Concord, Massachusetts, and then Hancock and Adams were staying in Lexington, Massachusetts. This wasn't a secret either. The new governor of Massachusetts knew about the Provincial Congress. In fact, he'd received orders to arrest the principal actors, which would have been Hancock and Adams. And he decided that that wasn't his concern for the moment and that in the spring of 1775, he wanted to go after colonial gunpowder and munitions, and those were being stored in Concord. And so it's the mistaken belief that the British were going to go get Hancock and Adams in Lexington. That leads to the British troops stopping in Lexington because people, men in Lexington were there to confront them. And then the British troops go on to Concord, and both Lexington and Concord give us the two first battles of the Revolutionary War. So Hancock, while he had left Lexington after Revere's warning, he's at the center of it. Shopping is hard, right?
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- [33:15]
C
Spotify and you describe how, even though they weren't trying to arrest him, in that moment, he does pay a price. You describe how, because he had to flee Boston, his home is targeted, his belongings are looted, and they really seem to be. It's almost as though, because they can't get him, they're going to get his stuff. And it. It underscores how him signing the signature so prominently in the story was not hyperbole. He really was a target of the British from the start of the conflict.
- [33:55]
A
Exactly. He puts his name on the line even before 1776, July 4th in 1774. He is the president of this other government. And so that's. He's. He's really putting himself out there. I do want to say that on the. On April 19, 1775, the day the battles of Lexington and Concord happened, the British have to retreat back from Concord, back to Boston, and it's 20 miles long, and they're being fired on by colonists the whole way. It's this really contentious retreat. And make no mistake, the British soldiers and officers are shocked that they essentially got routed by these men in the countryside. So there's already some humiliation in having to retreat back home. But then the humiliation is compounded because they hear during their retreat home, they hear colonists cry out, king Hancock forever. It's so amazing, isn't it, Mark? So this. This. This insult had been appropriated, and on the day the Revolutionary War began, colonists were crying out for King Hancock. And so that just tells you how much he has seeped into the consciousness of Massachusetts and how important he was to the people, even if it was just as a symbol for the people, he was so important.
- [35:21]
C
How does Hancock translate this into a position of intercolonial leadership leading up to the Declaration? Because it really is rapid. If you think about the timeline, April 1775 is, you know, at the forefront of the Massachusetts colony protests. And yet, and barely a year later, he is at the. He's leading, not the Provincial Congress, he's leading the Continental Congress. And his signature is not just the most prominent on the Declaration of Independence, it's practically the first.
- [35:56]
A
Yeah, this is. This is a. It's a really as you said it's a really quick transition for him when he goes to the Second Continental Congress, which begins in May 1775, they already had a president in place, Peyton Randolph from Virginia, who'd been president of the first Continental Congress. But Randolph returns to Virginia to tend to colony matters there, and Congress looks north for a new delegate to serve as president. And Hancock is actually the perfect choice because he is wealthy. So that assuages many concerns from other wealthy delegates that he's not going to act too rash or bold because he wants to protect those financial interests, seemingly. But he has the patriot and rebel bona fides too, because he's been the president of the Provincial Congress and he's been targeted. He's a known target by, by the British. And, and so when Congress meets, the battles of Lexington and Concord have happened. Hancock's name is growing, growing, growing. And so he's the president. Perfect pick for president and mark. Ultimately, this seemingly small decision is what seals his fame because it is him as president who is the one who authorizes the Declaration of Independence a year later.
- [37:16]
C
And I could see how that moderate reputation that he's cultivated is so key to it because you have, as you described, not everyone is sold on independence at the start. A lot of people have to be convinced of it. To what degree does Hancock's, you know, you know, embrace of it contribute to that?
- [37:32]
A
That's what's so funny, is that he doesn't embrace independence. In fact, just a few months before July 1776, John Adams says that Samuel Adams is complaining to other delegates about Hancock, saying that he's not throwing his considerable influence behind this cause and that Samuel Adams was speaking badly about him. So Hancock was moves more slowly to independence than his fellow Massachusetts delegates. But he's not alone in moving slowly. Benjamin Franklin, for example, also wasn't sure about independence. And this makes sense for Franklin. He, he was a full generation older than most of the Continental Congress delegates had lived in London, considered himself a Britain. So other, other delegates moved slowly to independence too. And then some, like the New York delegation, abstained from voting from independence altogether.
- [38:29]
C
Now we can see Hancock's signature as the climax of his role. And yet you describe he was actively involved in the, in the Patriot cause throughout the entire war. Could, could you describe some of the things he did during the war and, and how that contributed to the Patriot victory?
- [38:51]
A
Hancock does what he does best during the war, which is entertain. He's a people person. And during the war, once the alliance with France is secured, there's Some concern that colonists aren't going to accept help from France. Now, this might seem again counterintuitive. It's this big country that's coming to your aid. But in fact, just the decade before, colonists had fought alongside the British against the French. So to now say, no, now you're going to fight the British alongside the French was a little too much for people. There were other reasons, not that that people, especially in Massachusetts, didn't like France, but nevertheless, there was some reluctance to accept French help. And Hancock used that social influence he had to entertain the French really lavishly when they were in Boston. But he was setting an example for how other Bostonians and those in Massachusetts should be treating the French. They should be appreciative and welcoming. And in fact, Hancock at some point goes and patrols the streets to make sure that there isn't trouble between townspeople and the French. And this ultimately helps secure this very early fragile alliance.
- [40:10]
C
And that patrolling that you describe points again to the stature that he has not among his fellow big name revolutionaries that we read books about, but the ordinary Bostonians, the ordinary men and women of Massachusetts. How does that translate into his post war career? Is it a seamless transition or does he have to be convinced after the war to become governor of Massachusetts, or is it something that he desires?
- [40:43]
A
That's a good question. We don't hear directly from him about it, but I imagine that it's something that he desired, particularly because. So in 1780, Massachusetts had accepted its ratified its first constitution, the state constitution. And so there were elections for the new governor and legislature, and Hancock secures such a high majority of the vote that it seems difficult to imagine that he wouldn't have been so flattered by that as to not want the post. So in 1780, Hancock becomes the first elected governor of Massachusetts. And it's only in 85, when he steps down midterm because of health complications, that he doesn't serve as governor. And then after Shays rebellion, the Massachusetts governor at the time reacted quite unsatisfactorily to the people of Massachusetts, to say the least. And they reelect Hancock. And that, Mark, I think that moment is where you might say, ooh, he probably didn't want to get back into politics. His health was pretty poor at this stage in his life, but he was the choice. I mean, it would have been really difficult for him, as popular as he had been for decades, to deny the people his election and to say, no, I don't want the office.
- [42:05]
C
It's also another point at which I was Kind of playing around with my mind the moment. Because Shays rebellion is sometimes seen as this key event in convincing so many of the states to participate in the Constitutional Convention. It seemed as though some social rebellion was incipient. And as you describe, a lot of that was triggered by Hancock's successor, who you describe as much more what we might think of as conservative figure, much more aligned with the Bostonian business financial interests. It's interesting to think about whether Hancock would have been quite so indifferent or dismissive of the concerns of the Western farmers by that point. You, you describe you. That's not necessarily his basis, but he, he strikes me as being too capable a politician to simply brushed it off and allowed things to get to the point of a rebellion.
- [43:02]
A
Yeah, and I, I say in the book too that on paper, Bowdoin and Hancock are almost the same person. On paper, they both went to Harvard. They're both extremely wealthy merchants. They both like to entertain and, and, but one has charisma and, and, and, and an innate sense for what the people want and need and one doesn't. And that one's King Hancock, James Bowden. While he got elected, it's not as if he, you know, just took over power. He was elected, he had some degree of popularity, but it was nothing close to Hancock. And Hancock in fact does when given the chance, he seems to side with the ordinary people politically. And Bowdoin just quite in, in one of the biggest crises of Massachusetts early history does not side with the people and he's punished for that.
- [44:01]
C
So Hancock, he dies a few years later. He dies as governor of Massachusetts. I was wondering if you could talk a bit about with what you conclude in the book about his legacy and how he ends up becoming such a prominent figure despite never having been, say, a general in the, in the revolution or having been President of the United States, which, you know, supposedly he, he aspired to be. How is it that he becomes one of these names that, that, that you know, financial companies adopt and, and that we, we know today, even as so many other figures end up, you know, being consigned to, to, to the dusty books?
- [44:42]
A
Well, there's this rival to him, to Hancock. His name's Elbridge Gary G E R R Y. And I say that because we know his name today because he gives us the term for gerrymandering. Elbridge Gary loathed Hancock and his politics. But even Gary had to admit that when Hancock ultimately supported the Constitution and there, there was a long way to get there for Hancock to support it. But once Hancock put his weight behind the Constitution. Elbridge Gehry said that's it. Basically, he sealed his legacy, he said, because he had the Declaration, signed the Declaration first, and now the Constitution. And that's not me as a historian saying it. That's someone who was living at the time with Hancock and saw his influence and didn't like Hancock and still had to admit, this is, this is, he's done it. And so we see it's, it's almost that history has forgotten how important he was. But Those in the 1770s and 80s would have known his name. He was one of the most popular Americans. The idea of being linked to the state signature, interestingly, only comes nearly 50 years after the Declaration of Independence is signed. And Mark, this is, this is. I, I, I always find this so fascinating. When the Declaration of Independence was signed, we think of Hancock's big signature and everyone else's signature. There's only one copy of that, and it wasn't on display and it wasn't reproduced until the late 18 teens. So the only way people identified the Declaration of Independence with Hancock was because at the bottom of a printed copy, which you can easily find online today if you Google Dunlap copy Dunlap broadside of the Declaration of Independence, you see at the bottom, it says John Hancock, comma president. And so that's what colonists associated with the Declaration of Independence was this one man, John Hancock, not the rest of Congress. And then in the 18 teens, when they made a copy of that one printed copy of the Declaration of Independence, and there's John Hancock's beautiful, bold signature in the center, that's when he starts to become associated with his signature.
- [47:09]
C
So the signature pays all sorts of dividends for him.
- [47:12]
A
Really does. And it is a, I mean, it's a really beautiful signature. This is also around this time when we see that myth crop up of him saying, oh, I signed so big so King George III could see it without his spectacles. He didn't say that, but, but it was. Americans were so taken with this, with his signature, with it, it's, he's the president. So it's right in the center there. It's bigger than everyone else's. And that's what sort of seals his fame. So his other accomplishments politically gets forgotten for this one signature. And I, I say at the end of the book, I think he would take that trade to be remembered only for the signature, but not to risk being forgotten. Hancock wants to be remembered, so if it's for a signature, he'll take it.
- [47:59]
C
We appreciate the time you've taken to speak with us, but before we go, could you tell us what you're working on now?
- [48:04]
A
I have a new book coming out next year. It's called Cocked and An Intoxicating History of the American Revolution. And. And it looks at the influence of alcohol on the American Revolution. So, Mark, you can see I have a favorite time period and I definitely have a niche here. Yeah, but that book's available to pre order now and it'll be released next summer.
- [48:27]
C
That sounds like a wonderful topic. I look forward to enjoying it with a glass of my favorite beverage. And I hope we can have you back on the New Books Network to discuss it.
- [48:40]
A
Yeah, I'd love to. Thanks for having me, Mark.
- [48:42]
C
Well, thanks for being out of Sherbrooke. I hope you have a wonderful day. Hey, Ryan Reynolds here for Mint Mobile. You know, one of the perks about having four kids that you know about is actually getting a direct line to the big man up north. And this year he wants you to know the best gift that you can give someone is the gift of Mint Mobile's unlimited wireless for $15 a month. Now you don't even need to wrap it. Give it a try@mintmobile.com Switch upfront payment.
- [49:18]
A
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