Podcast Summary

Podcast: New Books Network
Host: Michael Stauch
Guest: Caitlin Wiesner, author of Between the Street and the State: Black Women’s Anti-Rape Activism Amid the War on Crime
Date: December 11, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode spotlights Caitlin Wiesner’s groundbreaking new book, Between the Street and the State: Black Women’s Anti-Rape Activism Amid the War on Crime, published by the University of Pennsylvania Press. Wiesner and host Michael Stauch discuss the history of Black women’s anti-rape organizing from the 1970s through the 1990s, foregrounding how activists navigated both state and interpersonal violence, devised strategies to care for Black women and girls, and resisted the encroachment of the carceral state. The conversation delves into key figures, archival discoveries, and the influence of federal policy on grassroots efforts, offering listeners a nuanced understanding of Black feminist visions of justice and care.

Main Discussion Points & Insights

Origins and Rationale of the Book Title (02:00–04:20)

• Wiesner’s Title Explained: "The street" refers to interpersonal violence, particularly as experienced by Black women, while "the state" refers to violence perpetrated by state actors, notably law enforcement.
• Inseparable Forms of Violence: Black women’s organizers were acutely aware of experiencing both forms of violence and shaped activism to address both simultaneously.
• Inspirations: Built on scholarship by Emily Thuma, Ann Gray Fisher, Treva Lindsay—who contextualize public spaces as contested sites of police power and resistance.
• Quote:
  "African American women, anti-rape organizers, who are the heart of this book, are really cognizant of the simultaneity of interpersonal and state violence and the necessity of devising and developing strategies that account for both of those vectors of violence." – Caitlin Wiesner (02:59)

Biographical and Academic Influences (04:41–08:41)

• Academic Path: Sparked at The College of New Jersey—studying history and women and gender studies, with activism on campus.
• Early Case Study: The Free Joan Little Movement (1974) significantly shaped her focus.
• Graduate Training at Rutgers: Seminar on race, criminalization, and the carceral state with Donna Murch reframed her topic—specifically, how feminist movements against sexual violence intersected with the federal war on crime in the 1970s.
• Quote:
  "A seed that was planted... was investigating the Free Joan Little Movement of 1974..." – Caitlin Wiesner (05:30)

From Dissertation to Book—Shifting Focus (08:53–13:13)

• Political Context: The resurgence of the MeToo movement influenced the dissertation’s framing, positing it as a prehistory to MeToo, referencing Tarana Burke and ongoing debates around inclusion.
• Book’s New Through Line: Transitioned from focusing solely on funding and state entanglement to prioritizing "care"—i.e., centering Black women and girls and understanding care as a counter to carceral logics.
• Historical Continuities: Recognizes the legacy of Black women’s care work dating to the 19th century as a form of resistance.
• Quote:
  "Care is in many respects the opposite of control." – Caitlin Wiesner (12:09)

Archival Research & Methodology (14:13–21:23)

• Diverse and Dispersed Archives: Sourced materials from national feminist organizations, local women’s groups, and key repositories like the Sophia Smith Collection at Smith College and Temple University.
• Importance of Oral History: Supplemented archival fragments by interviewing activists, uncovering overlooked stories and networks.
• Adapting Scholarship During COVID: Utilized creative approaches to access archives during pandemic closures.
• Quote:
  "My first task... was to investigate the archives of the feminist movement against sexual violence... their documents are scattered amongst multiple institutions and people, if they survive at all." – Caitlin Wiesner (14:13)

Arsenal of Practices: Subversion, Diversion, Resistance (21:23–26:43)

• Subversion: Using state resources to pursue anti-rape work not aligned with law enforcement objectives (Philadelphia WAR).
• Diversion: Channeling advocacy into non-policing venues—e.g., public schools or health agencies—when funds or circumstances limited other options (DC Rape Crisis Center, Chicago Sexual Assault Services Network).
• Resistance: Directly challenging carceral approaches by opposing punitive legislation (National Black Women’s Health Project against VAWA, 1994).
• Quote:
  "Subversion is the means of taking those funds and deploying them for purposes that run contrary to the goals of expanding police power over rape." – Caitlin Wiesner (23:29)

Key Case Studies and Archival Stories

Philadelphia Women Organized Against Rape (WAR): Subversion (27:03–33:46)

• Lynn Moncrief: Black radical feminist outreach coordinator, hired with LEAA (federal crime) funds.
• Practical Tactics: Focused on community prevention and self-defense instead of police reporting, thus subverting state expectations.
• Lasting Change: Helped establish a sustained Third World Women’s Caucus within WAR, ensuring women of color had leadership roles.
• Quote:
  "Moncrief is quite firm... she is not prioritizing police reporting. She does not see that as the objective of her job." – Caitlin Wiesner (31:21)

Washington DC Rape Crisis Center: Diversion (34:31–40:42)

• Nkenji Ture: Developed "Staying Safe"—a pioneering child sexual abuse curriculum for DC public schools (funded by municipal, not federal, money).
• Significance: Provided radical education in a majority-Black city, resisted carceral solutions, and foregrounded child sexual abuse as a health and justice issue.
• Quote:
  "Black feminist anti-rape organizers are carrying their advocacy into public schools where they could continue to do really radical things and sidestep law enforcement." – Caitlin Wiesner (40:10)

Chicago Sexual Assault Services Network: Ethic of Care (41:28–48:34)

• Practitioners: Black women social workers with radical histories (Black Panther connections).
• Strategy: Placed counselors inside community agencies frequented by Black women and girls—instead of setting up a traditional rape crisis center.
• Oral History: Phyllis Pennise and Beryl Fitzpatrick’s experiences show the limits and dangers of police involvement and the key role of community care.
• Quote:
  "Care and this ethic of care is, in fact, justice in the context of an increasingly conservative state that refuses to provide any resources to care for those deemed undeserving." – Caitlin Wiesner (47:14)

Atlanta’s Self-Help Groups: Health and Violence (49:13–53:34)

• National Black Women’s Health Project: Under Billie Avery, framed sexual violence as the core Black women’s health issue; organized self-help groups in McDaniel Glenn Homes.
• Care-based Justice: Oriented around addressing violence as systemic and intertwined with health, poverty, and racism—notably without centering law enforcement.
• Quote:
  "Gender violence, both battering and sexual assault were, as far as [Billie Avery] concerned, the number one issues that faced African American women from a health perspective." – Caitlin Wiesner (50:56)

Extending the Black Freedom Struggle (54:17–60:35)

• Continuities: Black feminist activism in the ‘70s–‘90s extends the Civil Rights Movement—particularly in confronting both state and intraracial violence.
• New Directions: Shifted the lens to include patriarchy and Black men’s roles as perpetrators, a challenge to earlier activism that only considered white men’s violence.
• Quote:
  "What I wanted to do with this book is show the extent to which the rise of organized black feminism in the 1970s is also part of that continuum." – Caitlin Wiesner (55:51)

The Violence Against Women Act: Carceral Feminism (60:56–69:29)

• Federal Policy Arc: Explains how anti-rape funding and policy—from the LEAA in the 70s, to block grants and VOCA in the 80s, to VAWA in 1994—increasingly tied funding to law enforcement cooperation and expanded state power.
• Black Feminist Critiques: Groups like the National Black Women’s Health Project opposed VAWA for prioritizing policing over economic security and social supports.
• Quotes:
  "The Violence Against Women Act... establishes basically a permanent spigot of federal funds for anti-violence organizations and groups who are doing service provision now. ...many of the activists who I catalog within this book...are taking up a critique of the Violence Against Women Act basically from the time that it is first passed, which was really striking to me..." – Caitlin Wiesner (63:14, 65:05)

Who Should Read This Book? (69:56–71:53)

• Audience: Scholars of mass incarceration, intersectionality, feminist activism; anyone interested in new models of fighting violence and building care-centered coalitions.
• Legacy: The book reframes sexual violence as integral to understanding both the rise of mass incarceration and the ongoing struggle for Black women’s freedom from violence.
• Quote:
  "Anyone who's interested in how we can build movements for freedom from violence in the 21st century, these women have lessons for us. They really do." – Caitlin Wiesner (71:30)

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the meaning of care:
  "Care is in many respects the opposite of control." – Caitlin Wiesner (12:09)
• On community care as justice:
  "Caring for the minds, bodies, and souls of assaulted black women and girls is the closest thing to justice in several situations." – Caitlin Wiesner (44:43)
• On the Violence Against Women Act:
  "The main thing that's going to produce safety for Black women and girls who are served by our organization is having the resources to leave dangerous and abusive situations. So eliminating welfare as we know it is directly undermining any project of women's and girls' safety." – Caitlin Wiesner (65:56)
• A reminder to scholars and activists:
  "Women matter in the history of police power. We're not used to thinking of sexual violence as an arena of the rise of mass incarceration... but what I think this book makes abundantly clear is the extent to which the architects of mass incarceration are thinking about sexual violence as well." – Caitlin Wiesner (70:25)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• 02:00 – Explaining the book’s title and framework (“the street” vs. “the state”)
• 04:41 – Academic journey, mentors, and the Joan Little case
• 08:53 – Differences between the dissertation and the book; why care became central
• 14:13 – Archival methods and the dispersed record
• 21:23 – Defining subversion, diversion, and resistance
• 27:03 – Case Study: Philadelphia WAR & Lynn Moncrief (subversion)
• 34:31 – Case Study: DC Rape Crisis Center & Nkenji Ture (diversion)
• 41:28 – Case Study: Chicago Sexual Assault Services Network, care as justice
• 49:13 – Case Study: Atlanta and self-help in public housing projects
• 54:17 – Black feminism as continuous with the Civil Rights Movement
• 60:56 – The Violence Against Women Act and the federal carceral turn in the 1990s
• 69:56 – Who the book is for; contemporary relevance

Tone & Style

Throughout, Wiesner speaks with scholarly rigor while maintaining empathy for her subjects, honoring both the intellectual tradition and the lived experiences of Black women’s survivors and activists. Stauch’s questions are respectful and probing, inviting Wiesner to elaborate on rich anecdotes and core arguments. The episode is vivid, nuanced, and accessible, offering a compelling entry point for listeners outside academia as well as researchers and students.

In summary:
This episode is essential listening for those interested in the intersections of race, gender, state violence, and feminist organizing—highlighting how Black women’s activism against sexual violence both transformed and was constrained by the expanding American carceral state, and how a legacy of care remains a vital resource in ongoing struggles for justice.