Podcast Summary: Can America Still Lead? Foreign Policy in an Age of Division with Joel Rubin

Podcast: New Books Network / International Horizons
Host: Eli Karetney
Guest: Joel Rubin, former Deputy Assistant Secretary of State and author of The Briefing Book
Date: November 21, 2025

Episode Overview

This episode dives deep into the fracturing landscape of American foreign policy. Host Eli Karetney sits down with veteran foreign policy expert Joel Rubin to examine whether the United States can still provide global leadership amid domestic polarization, political realignments, and sharpening international tensions. The conversation explores the lack of a coherent organizing principle in U.S. foreign policy, differences between party bases and elites, and the heated debates surrounding today's flashpoints: Latin America (Venezuela), Russia/Ukraine, China, and Israel/Palestine.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Erosion of a Unifying U.S. Foreign Policy Doctrine

• Lack of Cohesive Vision: Rubin highlights a "gap in American national security" since the end of the Cold War, where partisan divisions have supplanted the bipartisan consensus that previously guided foreign affairs (04:52).

  • Quote (Joel Rubin, 04:52):
    “This lack of a unifying mindset, a theory around which to organize... has in many ways been the greatest gap in American national security that we've had since the end of the Cold War.”

• Impact of Transactional Politics: U.S. foreign policy now suffers from partisan "ping pong" with each administration reversing the previous one’s major initiatives (04:52).

2. The Roots of Polarization: Party Bases vs. Foreign Policy Elites

• Base-Driven Policy: Both parties, especially Democrats now, are often led by their activist base rather than long-term strategic thinking; Rubin points to calls from the Democratic base to cut off aid to Israel or pull troops from conflict zones as examples (09:06).

  • Quote (Joel Rubin, 09:06):
    “There is now a trend to pander to our base at the expense of having a broader theory and a broader policy set to drive what our actual ideas are.”

• Challenge of Broad Appeal: The need for winning elections means policies often slant toward what is "enticing to the voters," risking deeper polarization (09:06).

3. A New “America First” – Trump’s Influence and Democratic Dilemmas

• Trumpism as Zeitgeist: Trump understood Americans’ weariness with costly wars; his "America First" struck a chord by tapping into disillusionment post-Iraq (09:06).

  • Quote (Joel Rubin, 09:06):
    "Trump put his finger on something. When he said America first, he understood the negative political repercussions of the Iraq war... that was the zeitgeist of the American people."

• Democratic Challenge: Crafting an "America First" that stays true to progressive values—promoting democracy, human rights, and climate action—remains an unsolved tension for Democrats (09:06).

4. Case Studies: Foreign Policy Hotspots

a. Latin America & Venezuela

• Return to Interventionism: Rubin criticizes the current U.S. approach toward Venezuela, labeling it as a "highly illegal venture," reminiscent of Cold War-era “regime change” operations (15:22).

  • Quote (Joel Rubin, 15:22):
    “We are moving in a slow regime change war towards Venezuela... It's incredibly dangerous. I think it's un-American.”
  • Rubin’s Peace Corps experience in Costa Rica reinforced his belief in partnerships and development aid over military intervention (15:22).

• Democratic Corrective: He stresses the importance of policy rooted in development, institution-building, and respect—not "neo-imperial transactional" approaches (23:08).

b. Russia & Ukraine

• Strategic Success: Rubin credits Biden’s Ukraine policy with weakening Russia and supporting democracy globally (26:56).

  • Quote (Joel Rubin, 26:56):
    “Biden's policy on Ukraine essentially bled Russia... If Russia had not been stood up to... they would have taken over Ukraine.”

• Communications Gap: Democrats’ main failure has been the inability to effectively explain and defend foreign policy decisions, seen in the political fallout from the Afghanistan withdrawal (31:38).

  • Quote (Joel Rubin, 31:38):
    “Our biggest failure... is our inability to communicate about foreign policy. Aggravation can't even begin to describe how I felt about the loss, the political loss around the withdrawal from Afghanistan.”

c. China: Trade, Strategy, and Party Tensions

• Conflicting Signals: Confusion dominates U.S.-China policy: tariffs once a Democratic labor tool, now wielded at Trump’s whim, and used more as a “bludgeon” than a strategic instrument (37:32).

  • Quote (Joel Rubin, 37:32):
    “What Trump has done is made him the center of the universe through this tariff policy... It's confusing.”

• Moral Clarity & Nuance: Rubin, reflecting on his own experience in China, remarks on creeping totalitarianism and American “spoiled” freedom, pushing Democrats to find a narrative that goes beyond just human rights (41:22).

• Party Divides: While divisions on economics and China exist in both parties, Rubin argues they’re deepening most acutely over Middle East policy (46:06).

5. The Democratic Divide Over Israel/Palestine & Antisemitism

• Deep Fissures Over Gaza: The war in Gaza has “created deep fissures within the Democratic foreign policy community,” turning Israel into a domestic political “juggernaut” (49:27).

  • Quote (Joel Rubin, 49:27):
    “The war in Gaza has created deep fissures within the Democratic foreign policy community... Israel has been a domestic political juggernaut.”

• Primary Litmus Tests: Future Democratic candidates may face loyalty tests: “Do you believe Israel should exist? Did they commit genocide? Should we cut off military aid?” (50:30)

  • Rubin worries this will mean “less nuance in their foreign policy” and push the party further from its interests as an inclusive, pragmatic force.

• Calls for Bipartisanship: Rubin advocates for supporting peace on the ground—whoever is president—warning that foreign policy should not be used as a political weapon (58:08).

  • Quote (Joel Rubin, 58:08):
    “If there's one lesson I've learned... politics does need to stop at the water's edge on these foreign policy issues.”

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Perils of Base Pandering:
  “The further the base drives policy... the more we have people elected who are pandering to the base rather than looking for broader unifying theory.” (09:06)

• On the Iraq War’s Lasting Damage:
  “The politicization of the Iraq war was calamitous across the board.” (58:08)

• On Democratic Communication Failures:
  “Our biggest failure... is our inability to communicate about foreign policy.” (31:38)

• On Why He Loves America:
  “That’s why I love America... as a Jewish American in particular, enabled me to feel equality and openness... to be completely, try to maximize who I am.” (43:49)

• On Rising Antisemitism and Bipartisan Responsibility:
  “Both sides are like having their moment of holy shit... it’s really bad out there and it’s only getting worse... We have to calm the waters.” (58:08)

Timestamps for Key Segments

• 01:41 – 04:52: Episode setup—the search for new visions in U.S. foreign policy
• 04:52 – 09:06: Lack of unifying principle; rise of base-driven foreign policy
• 09:06 – 14:10: The Democratic Party’s struggle to craft an appealing, values-based America First
• 15:22 – 23:08: U.S. policy in Latin America; dangers of returning to “regime change”
• 26:56 – 31:38: Ukraine war, strategic wins, and communication pitfalls for Democrats
• 37:32 – 42:45: U.S.-China policy, trade tensions, and party divisions
• 46:06 – 49:27: Party tensions on China and focus shifting to Middle East policy
• 49:27 – 56:35: Israel/Palestine: litmus tests, polarization, and looming realignment
• 58:08 – 61:01: The importance of bipartisanship and warning against using foreign policy for domestic gain

Tone & Language

Throughout the conversation, Rubin is candid, sometimes blunt, combining strategic insight with personal anecdotes and a clear commitment to pragmatic, ethical American leadership. The tone is passionate, sometimes frustrated, but also solution-oriented, balanced by Eli Karetney’s probing, thoughtful moderation.

Conclusion

Joel Rubin provides a sobering diagnosis: America’s capacity for global leadership is hampered less by external rivals and more by its own partisan divisions. For both parties—especially Democrats—the challenge is to bridge the divide between base enthusiasm and the need for broadly defensible policy, all while confronting new foreign policy crises with coherence and values-based pragmatism. The episode closes with an urgent appeal to keep foreign policy above partisan warfare, echoing the old adage that “politics should stop at the water’s edge.”