Podcast Summary: Carol Atack, "Plato: A Civic Life" (Reaktion, 2025)

New Books Network – September 27, 2025
Host: Morteza Hajizadeh
Guest: Dr. Carol Atack, University of Cambridge

Episode Overview

This episode features Dr. Carol Atack discussing her new book Plato: A Civic Life, published by Reaktion in 2025. The conversation centers on how to write a biography of Plato given sparse historical sources, Plato’s intellectual and political context, his influence on philosophy and political thought, the significance of his Academy, and how his legacy persists in today’s world. The episode is structured as an accessible entry point both for scholars and the general public interested in Plato’s life, political philosophy, and enduring relevance.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Introducing Carol Atack and Her Approach

• Background: Dr. Atack specializes in ancient Greek political thought, especially 4th-century BCE political theory. She is interested in how thinkers like Plato responded to live issues in their world and how their works seed thinking across centuries.

  "My research now sits somewhere between intellectual history and philosophy. So I teach ancient philosophy, I teach history of political thought, I teach classical Greek language." (02:11)

• Making Plato Accessible: Atack values contextualizing and demystifying Plato for broad audiences, a hallmark of Reaktion books.

  "...You make it accessible to a general public as well, which is one of the great things about reaction books that I really love, including this one." (04:00)

2. Writing Plato’s Biography: Sources and Challenges

• Plato as a Person: Despite Plato’s centrality, there’s little focus on him as an individual; most study extracts arguments from his works, making his philosophy “disembodied.” Atack emphasizes the contextualist approach—reconstructing Plato’s world and how it shaped his thinking.

  "Plato really tries quite hard to keep himself out of his writing...But there's a lot of things about him in the writing." (04:42)

• Historical Evidence: While primary sources are scarce, contextual clues from 4th-century Athens, surviving dialogues, and indirect traditions help inform plausible narratives about Plato’s life and intellectual development.

• Technological Advances: Recent imaging technology has made ancient manuscripts more legible, such as a newly deciphered early history of Plato’s academy from Herculaneum.

  "Scholars are applying artificial intelligence techniques...to take better images of these illegible relics, and find text on them." (09:46)

3. Plato’s Historical and Intellectual Context

• Turbulent Athens: Plato was born during Athens’ most critical period—post-plague, active wars, social and political upheaval. He grew up in a household engaged with political life.

  "...He's growing up in a household where the older men are politically active. His older brothers are learning about the politics, so he's not separated from it." (17:32)

• Experience of Democracy and Tyranny: Witnessed democracy’s weaknesses—such as the disastrous Sicilian expedition—and the rise of oligarchic tyranny, notably the Thirty Tyrants.

  "He was concerned about political decision making being in the hands of people who lacked the knowledge, the wisdom, the rationality to make good quality decisions." (21:45)

• Trial and Death of Socrates: The injustice of Socrates’ prosecution by restored democracy deeply impacted Plato, reorienting his life.

  "...His beloved teacher is put on trial for impiety, for corrupting the youth...Plato is devastated by the death of Socrates. It seems to reorient his whole life." (25:47)

4. Plato’s Critique of Democracy & The Sophists

• Ambivalence Toward Democracy: Plato critiques democracy for its incompetence and risk of mob rule but sees tyranny as worse.

  "...He doesn't think that democracy is the worst thing that can happen to a city. He is even more vehemently opposed to tyranny..." (25:47)

• Concerns Over the Sophists: Criticized sophists for their persuasive but shallow rhetoric, which he felt could undermine the pursuit of truth in public life.

  "Plato's worry about this kind of rhetoric is that it's form over substance...persuading you to accept something that if you examined it...wouldn't be quite as persuasive or interesting." (28:26)

• Debates on Education: Plato’s dialogues dramatize live arguments with sophists and rival educators like Isocrates, emphasizing the dangers and power of rhetoric.

5. Plato’s Travels and Encounters with Other Philosophical Traditions

• Influence of Other Schools: Socrates’ death catalyzed Plato’s travel (possibly to Italy and Sicily), where he encountered Pythagorean and Megarian thought—shaping his metaphysics and educational theories.

  "It's very clear that Plato becomes interested in other philosophical traditions and learns about them and starts to deploy them in his own thinking." (42:38)

• Philosopher Kings and Politics in Sicily: Plato’s real or legendary attempt to transform Dionysius II into a philosopher king stems from his conviction that only wise, knowledgeable rulers can govern well.

  "...Plato actually tries to put that philosophy into life by retraining a young tyrant." (42:38)

• Engagement with Pythagorean Ideas: Especially on immortality of the soul and mathematical understanding of reality, visible in works like the Phaedo.

6. Plato’s Academy: Form, Function, and Legacy

• Distinctions from Contemporaries: Plato’s Academy was physically and symbolically integrated with Athenian civic life, positioned near ritual and commemorative sites.

  "It's not just the place he chooses. It's also the people who come to join him, as well as students like Dion from Sicily...He also attracts...a developing kind of group of...professional philosophers, professional academics..." (53:09)

• Notable Attendees: Attracted figures from across the Greek world (e.g., Aristotle, Eudoxus), fostering a vibrant intellectual community.

• Proto-University: Seen as a precursor to later educational institutions; the dialogue-based, collective pursuit of knowledge served as a model for humanistic traditions.

  "...The academy has influenced the modern university and been present in the history of higher education." (61:21)

7. Plato’s Enduring Legacy

• Theory of Forms and Idealism: Plato’s concept that the world of experience is overshadowed by unchanging ideals has sparked centuries of philosophical debate.

  "...Aspiring to really understand things at the deepest level is really important, but...denying empirical experience...is also problematic..." (64:52)

• Dialogue as Method: Plato’s use of dialogues demonstrates the value of intellectual exchange; knowledge and self-improvement stem from conversation rather than confrontation.

  "...That insistence that speech discussion is the way in which we advance knowledge and understand things, I think that's really important for everybody." (64:52) "The aim of discussion is always to make all the participants better...not about defeating somebody." (69:49)

• Modern Relevance: In an era of ‘fake news’ and polarized speech, Plato’s commitment to dialogue over rhetoric, debate for mutual improvement, and critical questioning remain vital.

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Plato’s Contextualism

  “It’s almost as if [Plato’s work is] a kind of brain in a vat, kind of disembodied philosophy...But because I work on both history and philosophy, I was really fascinated by the way in which his context interacts with his writings.” – Carol Atack (04:42)

• On the Impact of Socrates’ Death

  “Socrates’ death was a defining moment for Plato. I mean, he saw it as monstrously unjust. He writes about it, he returns to it throughout his later works...commemorating Socrates becomes hugely important as an act for Plato.” – Carol Atack (36:29)

• On Rhetoric and the Sophists

  “Plato's worry about this kind of rhetoric is that it's form over substance…It's persuading you to accept something that if you examined it in the cold light of day, wouldn't be quite as persuasive or interesting.” – Carol Atack (28:26)

• On the Academy’s Lasting Legacy

  “You could arguably say that see Plato as a kind of entrepreneur who established a new way of delivering education, which was very successful for Athens in the years to come.” – Carol Atack (53:09)

• On Enduring Significance

  “That insistence that speech discussion is the way in which we advance knowledge and understand things, I think that's really important for everybody.” – Carol Atack (64:52)
  “The aim of discussion is always to make all the participants better...it’s about mutual improvement, it’s not about defeating somebody.” – Carol Atack (69:49)

Important Timestamps

• [02:11] — Atack’s academic background and interest in Plato
• [04:42] — Challenges of contextualizing Plato’s life and sources
• [09:46] — Discovery & implications of ancient manuscripts via new imaging tech
• [17:32] — Plato’s childhood and the political climate in Athens
• [21:45] — Plato’s criticism of Athenian democracy
• [28:26] — Rise of rhetoric and Plato’s response to sophistry
• [36:29] — The impact of Socrates’ trial and death on Plato
• [42:38] — Plato’s travels, encounters with other philosophical traditions
• [53:09] — The nature and significance of Plato’s Academy
• [61:21] — The Academy as a forerunner to modern higher education
• [64:52] — Which aspects of Plato’s thought have proven most enduring
• [69:49] — Relevance of Plato’s philosophical approach in the modern world

Conclusion

Dr. Carol Atack’s "Plato: A Civic Life" offers both fresh scholarly insight and narrative accessibility, highlighting Plato not simply as an abstract thinker but a fully engaged Athenian citizen shaped by and responding to the crises and intellectual currents of his time. Her contextual approach offers readers a chance to see how Plato’s legacy endures: in our institutions, our debates, and our ongoing search for knowledge through conversation.