Podcast Summary: New Books Network — Charles R. Butcher and Ryan D. Griffiths, "Before Colonization: Non-Western States and Systems in the Nineteenth Century"

Date: September 18, 2025
Host: Nicholas Gordon
Guest: Charles R. Butcher

Episode Overview

This episode features Nicholas Gordon’s interview with Charles R. Butcher, co-author of Before Colonization: Non-Western States and Systems in the Nineteenth Century (Columbia UP, 2025). The conversation explores the global landscape of independent polities before the era of European colonial domination, challenges Eurocentric conceptions of the "state," and examines how non-Western regions governed themselves, creating a more diverse and nuanced portrait of 19th-century international systems.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Rethinking the “State” in International Relations

• Traditional View & Its Limits

  • The Western-centric definition of the state, often derived from Charles Tilly and the Correlates of War (CoW) project, overlooks many non-Western polities.
  • CoW required diplomatic relations with Britain and France as proof of statehood, missing polities for whom other actors were more relevant (e.g., the Dutch in Indonesia or indigenous recognitions in West Africa) (03:27–08:11).
  • Quote:

    "The major thing we did was just dispense with this notion that Britain and France are the key recognizers and adopt a more regionally sensitive approach..."
    —Charles R. Butcher [07:54]

• New Measurement Approach

  • Butcher and Griffiths propose a method counting states based on internal autonomy and regionally contextual external recognition, identifying about 230 states in 1816 compared to CoW's 23 (08:29).

Conceptual Models: Billiard Ball vs. Bullseye

• Billiard Ball Model: States have hard, defined borders and are internally homogeneous (realist tradition).

• Bullseye Model: Governance is more diffuse, sovereignty "grades" outward from a central core, with fuzzy or overlapping boundaries (08:29–12:44).

  • Quote:

    "As you move further out from the center, sovereignty becomes more and more graded... it might be really hard to know whether you’re inside one state or inside another."
    —Charles R. Butcher [11:22]

• Alternate Metaphors: Candlelight, Swiss cheese, mandalas—all highlight non-uniform sovereignty.

(De)Centralization: How Did States Rule?

• Centralization Defined: Extent to which central rulers directly control taxation, coercion, lawmaking, and diplomacy (13:07).

• Direct vs. Indirect Rule: Many precolonial states were highly decentralized, governing through vassals or local rulers who collected taxes and managed justice (13:07–17:29).

  • Case Example: Oyo Empire (West Africa)—ruler controlled war, diplomacy, tribute, and capital crime adjudication; everything else was left to local authorities.

• What Drives Centralization?

  • Three theories tested:

    1. War Makes States: International competition compels pooling resources and centralization.
    2. Trade as a Catalyst: Trade enriches the center, allowing rulers to bypass vassals.
    3. Interaction Capacity: “The more expensive it is to move... the higher the costs of building a centralized administration.” Lower costs allow centralization (17:48–23:09).

  • Findings:

    • War and trade don’t consistently drive centralization outside Europe; in some cases, they even increase fragmentation.
    • Interaction capacity — the ability to move resources and people — is the strongest determinant, but exceptions abound.
    • Quote:

      “The best explanation for that widespread... decentralized rule... was just these very high costs to moving people and goods.”
      —Charles R. Butcher [22:49]

Regional Case Studies

East Asia: Model of Centralization

• Why Centralized?: High population densities, agricultural productivity, infrastructure enable centralization (25:24–29:08).
• Examples:
  • Japan: Decentralized under Tokugawa, but Meiji Restoration (1868) leads to centralization as a response to foreign threat (Matthew Perry, 1853).
  • Vietnam: Unified after civil war, rulers exploit trade and European weapons for centralization.
  • Quote:

    “This region sort of fits the bill, theoretically. It was a high interaction capacity region that saw increases in trade that rulers at the time were able to monopolize on.”
    —Charles R. Butcher [27:18]

Southeast Asia: Maritime Fragmentation

• State Death & Turnover: Easy maritime connectivity enabled trade, but difficult internal overland movement kept polities small and unstable (29:42–33:01).

• ACEH Case: The pepper trade brought revenue but also empowered competing ports to break away, fueling decentralization.

• Quote:

  “For rulers, it’s a bit of a double-edged sword... the pepper trade could... provide Aceh with revenues, but also [empowered] other ports... to throw off the hegemony.”
  —Charles R. Butcher [32:18]

South Asia: Competition and Decentralization

• After the Mughal Collapse (c.1750): Regional powers emerge (Maratha Confederacy, Hyderabad, Bengal, Awad).
• Intense Competition: Theories would predict centralization, but dependence on local warlords leads to more decentralization (33:26–37:02).
  • Exception: Mysore, a relatively centralized state, is an outlier.
• Quote:

  “Competition had this sort of decentralizing effect as we move further into the... early 19th century in South Asia.”
  —Charles R. Butcher [36:38]

The Impact of Colonization

• Quantifying State Death: From ~230 in 1816 to a handful by 1900.

• European Influence:

  • Sometimes promoted centralization, more often caused fragmentation.
  • European states offered “exit options” for vassals, weakening indigenous polities (37:41–41:50).
  • Quote:

    “The coming of, say, the British into West Africa... as they became more entrenched on the coast, some of the subordinate vassals... found it easier to defect.”
    —Charles R. Butcher [39:15]

• Long-Term Effects: European trade and military technology could aid centralization, but effects varied across regions and periods.

Relevance for Today and Future Research

• Legacies Matter: Colonial and pre-colonial institutions often persisted into the 20th century, shaping modern politics, democracy, and conflict (42:25–45:13).

  • Quote:

    “It’s not like the dynasty, of course, many of these dynasties did disappear, but... their institutions survive over time... and those institutions still play an important role in helping us to understand peace and conflict within and between states.”
    —Charles R. Butcher [43:02]

• New Data and Directions:

  • Ongoing project to expand the dataset back to 1750 and map historical boundaries; linking past state systems to present-day issues such as secession, civil war, and protest (45:35–47:11).

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “We identify a very large number of states. I think in 1816, the correlates of war might identify 23 states. And I think in the book, we have something like 230.”
  —Charles R. Butcher [08:35]

• “Sovereignty isn’t necessarily uniform over the territory of a state and it can kind of fade out as one moves over distance.”
  —Charles R. Butcher [11:22]

• “The best explanation for that widespread... decentralized rule... was just these very high costs to moving people and goods...”
  —Charles R. Butcher [22:49]

Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:00–01:29: Ads and introductions
• 01:33–03:27: Setting up the "state" problem in IR theory
• 03:27–08:11: Definitions, critiques of CoW project, measurement methodology
• 08:11–12:44: Billiard Ball vs. Bullseye metaphors
• 12:44–17:29: (De)Centralization outlined; governance examples
• 17:29–23:09: Theories of centralization, mixed findings
• 24:52–25:24: Transition to regional cases
• 25:24–29:08: East Asia case study
• 29:08–33:01: Southeast Asia case study
• 33:01–37:02: South Asia case study
• 37:02–41:50: The impact and mechanisms of European colonization
• 41:50–45:13: Legacies and relevance for today’s world
• 45:35–47:11: Where to find Butcher’s work; next research steps

Host’s Closing

• Nicholas Gordon provides links for further reading and says farewell to Butcher [47:11–47:41].

Further Reading & Information

• Charles R. Butcher’s academic page: Norwegian University of Science and Technology
• Look for Before Colonization (Columbia UP, 2025)
• Related emerging research on state legacies, democracy, and conflict

This summary provides a detailed roadmap of the episode’s exploration into the overlooked richness and complexity of non-Western state systems before European imperialism, highlighting how shifting our lens reveals a much more plural and dynamic international history.