Podcast Summary: New Books Network
Episode: Charles Watkins, "Trees Ancient and Modern: Woodland Cultures and Conservation" (Reaktion, 2025)
Date: November 5, 2025
Host: Yana Byers
Guest: Charles Watkins, Professor of Rural Geography, University of Nottingham
Overview
This episode explores the deep ecological, cultural, historical, and practical significance of trees and woodlands through a wide-ranging conversation with Charles Watkins about his new book, Trees Ancient and Modern: Woodland Cultures and Conservation. The discussion delves into how woodlands are shaped by, and shape, human societies—challenging the notions of untouched wilderness and illuminating both the enduring mystique and the urgent contemporary relevance of forests.
Key Discussion Points & Insights
Origins and Definitions of 'Forest'
- [03:12] Charles Watkins opens with Sherwood Forest (Nottingham), dispelling common assumptions:
"The very phrase Sherwood Forest is itself problematic... 'forest' is really an invention of the Normans in the 11th century and is an area... preserved for the king's hunting. And it didn't necessarily mean woodland."
— Charles Watkins (03:29) - The 'forest' often included villages, open land, and even urban areas:
"What the word forest meant was that... the king's deer were protected. You couldn’t kill them for your own use." (04:04)
From Research to Passion: How Forests Became a Lifelong Focus
- [05:32] Watkins describes his academic trajectory from rural geography to repeated work on trees:
"I think probably about 30 years ago, when I started doing a lot of work on trees, people would at parties say, ‘Oh, trees, yes,’ and then the conversation would move on. Now suddenly... people want to know an enormous amount of detail." (05:48)
- There has been a marked cultural shift toward seeing trees as vital for ecological health (carbon sequestration, rewilding).
Forests as Cultural Constructs
- [07:11] Watkins and Byers discuss the 'picturesque' in landscape art:
"Artists... have old gnarled trees, they have roots, they have twisted branches... which they call the picturesque because it's like the picture." (07:22)
- Landowners preserved ancient trees for aesthetic and commercial reasons (late 18th/early 19th century tourism).
The Myth of Untouched Wilderness
- [08:53] National parks and the ideal of 'untouched' forest are questioned:
"All the trees in the woods we see are indeed touched and... modified by human activity—fire, grazing... management." (09:19)
- Literature and folklore frame forests as both sacred and scary, the realm of "wolves and wild men" ([11:03]).
Sacredness, Danger, and Modern Emotional Bonds
- [12:16] The story of the Sycamore Gap tree:
"That tree was felled by two criminals for no apparent reason. And this caused a huge fury. But it was just a tree… So particular trees get particular associations." (12:46)
- Trees are "almost worshipped" in some societies and become emotive symbols.
Managing and Defining Ancient Woodlands
- [14:41] Origin of the term 'ancient woodland':
"It was actually invented by... Oliver Rackham and George Peterkin... they realized that fragments of woodland in Britain were probably the relics of some sort of original woodland cover." (15:18)
- The value and branding of 'ancient woodland' increase over time.
Human Intervention: Coppicing and Pollarding
- [20:02] Coppicing explained:
"When you cut [broadleaf trees] down to the ground, they will send up shoot... and it regrows." (20:15)
- Coppicing and pollarding are ancient, dynamic forms of woodland management that conserve resources and biodiversity.
- The market for coppice plummeted with fossil fuels; now sees a revival due to conservation and a return to wood fuel ([24:57]).
The Complexity of Forest Conservation and Land Use
- [26:27] The sheer effort and coordination in effective woodland management:
"There's a lot about managing forests, felling, replanting, harvesting, rewilding... that just requires a lot of input from everyone—from environmentalists, from the government, from landowners." (26:41)
- The economics of forested land vs. alternative uses (ex: Airbnbs)—forests produce little short-term income ([29:54]).
Animals, Grazing, and Rewilding
- [31:29] Watkins on animal populations:
"Managing forests is often about managing animal populations... huge flocks of sheep and goats... are not wild landscapes. They're produced by grazing." (31:36)
- Reintroduction of deer and invasive species (Muntjac deer, gray squirrels) challenge effective conservation:
"If you're trying to establish rewilding... controlling Muntjac is a really significant problem. The... bigger problem is the gray squirrel, which... is causing havoc." (33:45)
Human-Wildlife Conflict, Return of Wolves, and Policy Dilemmas
- [36:32] Balancing tourism, rewilding, and traditional agriculture:
"Do you want to have tourism... see a wolf? How will that affect conservation of open grasslands with high biodiversity?" (39:13)
The Allure and Therapy of Trees
- [39:43] On 'leaf peeping' and the evolving human appreciation for trees:
"I hadn't realized that leaf peeping was such a thing. It's a new word to me." (40:00)
- Growing recognition of 'nature therapy':
"Now you see, people seem surprised that going for a walk in the country or seeing trees and leaves... seem to be beneficial... Walt Whitman... wrote all about how trees... you could commune with trees." (41:06)
Trees as Sites of Meaning and Sacredness
- [42:23] The story of the Glastonbury Thorn:
"A tree growing in Glastonbury... flowers in December... became known as the Glastonbury Thorn... Various myths... Joseph of Arimathea brought this and put the stick in the ground and it... became a holy tree." (42:39)
- Sacred and mythic connections enhance symbolic importance of particular trees.
Fire, Disease, and Global Threats
- [45:54] The paradox of rising woodlands in Europe vs. global losses:
"In Europe, yes. But... in clearances in South America... and Southeast Asia... the great threat of fire... and of course, one dangerous." (45:54)
- Role of managed fire and historical grazing in reducing catastrophic fire risk.
- Disease and pests (ash dieback, Dutch elm disease, gray squirrel), their devastating effects, and the dynamic character of woodlands ([49:10]).
Social and Ethical Questions
- [50:21] Ethical dimension:
"Is it... morally correct... to rewild areas in the UK or Europe... while benefiting from palm oil or cheap beef imported from other countries?" (50:49)
- The rewilding movement in rich countries often rests on global inequalities.
Looking Forward: The Future of Woodlands
-
[51:43] Diversity and urban woodland care as priorities:
"I think one great thing is to plant a variety of trees or let through natural regeneration, a variety of trees grow up… more care of the trees in city areas... what might be seen as waste areas could be... very beneficial..." (52:16)
-
Ongoing research: Introduction of exotic trees, riverside (riparian) trees, and the competing interests in river management ([53:42]).
Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments
-
On the shift in public interest:
"About 30 years ago, when I started doing a lot of work on trees, people would at parties say, 'Oh, trees, yes.'... Now suddenly, people want to know an enormous amount of detail."
— Charles Watkins (05:45) -
On the human influence on 'wild' woods:
"All the trees in the woods we see are indeed touched and indeed informed and modified by human activity."
— Charles Watkins (09:19) -
On managing dangerous myths:
"If any of us go and walk in a wood by ourselves on a foggy [or] windy, cold day... it's easy to get lost in the woods still."
— Charles Watkins (11:13) -
On "ancient woodland":
"They realized that fragments of woodland in Britain were probably the relics of some sort of original woodland cover... but how do you get popular support?... let's just call them ancient woodlands."
— Charles Watkins (15:18) -
On loss and revival of woodland skills:
"This is an art that was almost lost in our lifetime... with coal and then oil... coppice woods lost value altogether, and then conservationists then were reinvented and reapplied coppice."
— Charles Watkins (22:58) -
On rewilding vs. global justice:
"Is it moral, morally correct, as it were, rewild areas in the UK or Europe... while benefiting from palm oil or the cheap, cheap relatively cheap beef imported from other countries?"
— Charles Watkins (50:49) -
On the dynamism of woods:
"People see woodlands as fairly static things in the landscape... in fact, everything's changed... woods change and diseases come... Actually, they're extraordinarily dynamic."
— Charles Watkins (49:50)
Important Timestamps
- 02:07 — Episode begins with guest introduction.
- 03:12–05:08 — Defining 'forest' and the history of Sherwood.
- 05:32–08:42 — Watkins on the cultural rise of trees and their aesthetic meanings.
- 14:41–18:33 — The invention and evolution of 'ancient woodland'.
- 20:02–24:57 — Coppicing and pollarding: techniques and history.
- 31:29–33:57 — The management of animal populations in forests.
- 36:32–39:13 — Rewilding and the return of wolves: balancing tradition, conservation, and agriculture.
- 39:43–41:48 — 'Leaf peeping', nature therapy, and cultural attitudes toward trees.
- 42:23–45:40 — The Glastonbury thorn and sacred trees.
- 45:54–50:14 — Fire, disease, and global versus local woodland trends.
- 51:43–53:42 — Future directions for European woodlands.
- 53:42–55:01 — Watkins’ ongoing research and final thoughts.
Summary and Takeaways
Charles Watkins and Yana Byers skillfully unfurl the complex tapestry of woodland cultures—demonstrating that woodlands are deeply embedded in human history, imagination, and economy. Trees are not merely backdrops to human stories; they are protagonists in a shared history, shaped through aesthetic, spiritual, technological, and political processes.
- Human management—from medieval deer parks to coppicing and conservation activism—has always been central, debunking myths of untouched wilderness.
- Trees evoke powerful meanings: beauty, mystique, danger, nostalgia, and even sacredness—reflected in our laws, art, and rituals.
- Rising contemporary interest is less a new discovery than a rediscovery of our dependence on and longing for healthy woodlands.
- Conservation’s future demands diversity, urban attention, careful balance of tradition and innovation, and, crucially, a global ethical awareness.
For listeners wanting to understand not only the specifics of tree preservation but also the broader interplay between landscape, culture, and society, this episode is both grounding and eye-opening.