Episode Overview

Podcast: New Books Network / Nordic Asia Podcast
Host: Ariana Spitkanen
Guest: Dr. Hermann Aubier, researcher at the Centre for Climate Change, Energy and Environmental Law, University of Eastern Finland
Date: February 6, 2026
Theme:
This episode delves into China's evolving climate and air quality governance, recent ambitious policy reforms, and the opportunities and challenges for China-EU cooperation on climate action amidst a tense geopolitical landscape. Dr. Hermann Aubier shares firsthand insights from fieldwork and research, shedding light on the integration of climate and air quality goals in China and what this means for global climate governance.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. China’s Dual Role: Problem and Solution in Climate Action

• China as the Largest Emitter and Cleantech Leader (05:24–09:24)
  • China remains the world’s largest greenhouse gas emitter but has also become a global leader in cleantech—particularly solar, wind, and electric vehicles (EVs).
  • “It has rolled out solar especially, but also wind and also big batteries...and of course the EV...boom in China. All this is making a dent in the fossil fuel-based economy.”
    — Dr. Aubier [06:25]
  • Coal remains dominant in China’s energy mix (about half). Even as EVs proliferate, the benefit is partially offset by coal-powered grids.
  • China’s recent signs of “peaking” coal dependency could mark a pivotal turning point in global climate trends.
  • The next few years are “make or break” for both China and the world on climate mitigation.
  • “China is at a historical crossroads.” — Dr. Aubier [08:32]

2. Local Dynamics: Transformation on the Ground

• Improvements in Air Quality and Urban Clean Tech (10:07–14:41)
  • Dr. Aubier’s recent trips highlighted remarkable improvements in urban air quality, widespread electrification of transport, and expansion of low-carbon public transit (e.g., subways, bullet trains).
  • Notable contrast with the early 2000s: “It was very pleasant...to walk around and just hear the very dim buzzing of the electric scooters...compared to the noise I remember from the 2000s.” — Dr. Aubier [10:33]
  • Regional disparities persist: First-tier, wealthy cities progress faster, while coal-dependent provinces lag behind.
  • Air quality improvement is a sprint (immediate local health gains), climate mitigation is a marathon (long-term global change).

3. Integrating Climate and Air Quality Policy — The "Nexus"

• New Policy Approaches and Central Coordination (15:28–20:42)
  • Integration of air quality and climate policy has traditionally lagged but is now accelerating.
  • The “dual carbon goals” (announced by Xi Jinping at the UN in 2020): carbon peaking before 2030, carbon neutrality by 2060.
  • China’s policy machinery was taken by surprise by the top-level announcement, leading to the rapid creation of a central leading group to coordinate across ministries.
  • Historically, climate (NDRC) and air quality (Ministry of Environment and Ecology) were handled separately. The new approach seeks greater synergy.
  • Introduction of market-based tools: National Emissions Trading System (ETS) launched, inspired by the EU’s longstanding ETS.
  • “They have launched the national equivalent in China...because we need market-based tools to deal with carbon reduction. That's known as the kind of gold standard.” — Dr. Aubier [17:32]
  • “One plus N” framework: Top-down mandate plus sectoral/regional action plans for implementation.
  • June 2022: Implementation plan to enhance synergy on carbon and air pollution reduction — a key focus for research at the University of Eastern Finland.
  • Local implementation is the major challenge due to China’s administrative fragmentation: “There are all these famous expressions in Chinese that when there is a policy from the top, there is a counter policy from the bottom.” — Dr. Aubier [20:17]

4. Challenges and Prospects for China-EU Climate Cooperation

• Cooperation Amidst Geopolitical Tension (21:58–27:59)
  • Despite tense EU-China relations and global uncertainties, environmental issues are a stronghold for continued cooperation: “The color of EU-China cooperation is green.” — EU Delegation, recounted by Dr. Aubier [22:37]
  • Trade disputes (e.g., EV tariffs, Carbon Border Adjustment Mechanism/CBAM) complicate cooperation, yet don't erase the common interest.
  • Policy actors vary in attitude: Commerce ministries focus on protecting domestic industry, while environment ministries recognize and support ambitious climate policy.
  • “The planet and our one atmosphere don’t care whether we get along or not...they need basically human beings to cooperate if we want to stabilize our atmosphere and the temperature of our planet.” — Dr. Aubier [24:25]
  • China is developing its own ETS, aiming for convergence with EU standards.
  • “It’s in the interest of the EU and China, regardless of what’s happening elsewhere in the world...it’s also in the interest of the world that these two big economic entities are working together and signaling to the rest of the world that this is the way forward.” — Dr. Aubier [27:32]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On air quality change in cities:
  “...just to walk around the street and hear the very dim buzzing of the electric scooters and cars compared to the noise I remember from the 2000s...It is an impressive thing.” — Dr. Aubier [10:33]

• On China’s crossroads:
  “The next couple of years are going to be make or break...for China and the world because China is responsible for such a big share of emissions.” — Dr. Aubier [08:43]

• On policy integration:
  “There is a real awareness, at least among the experts...The tricky part is how this is going to be rolled out and implemented at the local level.” — Dr. Aubier [19:58]

• On local implementation:
  “When there is a policy coming from the top, there is a counter policy from the bottom.” — Dr. Aubier [20:17]

• On necessity of EU-China cooperation:
  “The planet and our one atmosphere don’t care whether we get along or not...they need basically human beings to cooperate if we want to stabilize our atmosphere.” — Dr. Aubier [24:25]

• Optimistic closing:
  “At least, as you said, the color of cooperation is green.” — Ariana Spitkanen [27:49]

Timestamps for Important Segments

• [01:16] — Dr. Aubier introduces his research focus: Climate-air quality nexus in China; policy mapping
• [05:24] — Discussion of China as the top emitter and clean technology leader
• [10:07] — Impressions from recent fieldwork in Beijing and other Chinese cities; urban improvements
• [15:28] — Progress and challenges in integrating climate and air quality policy in China; policy milestones
• [21:58] — Analysis of current China-EU climate cooperation amid global tensions; green diplomacy
• [27:59] — Host’s summary: cautious optimism and the ongoing importance of green cooperation

Conclusion

The episode provides a nuanced and insider perspective on China’s dual status as both a climate change "problem" and "solution" generator. Dr. Aubier emphasizes real progress made in integrating air quality and climate policy, with high-level commitment evident but significant local implementation challenges. While EU-China tensions remain, both sides continue to find common ground on green issues—a vital channel for global climate action. The outlook, while challenging, offers grounds for cautious optimism, with cooperation described as essential for both regions and the world.