Christopher C. Gorham, "Matisse at War: Art and Resistance in Nazi Occupied France" (Citadel Press, 2025)

Summary

---

Podcast Summary:

New Books Network — Christopher C. Gorham, "Matisse at War: Art and Resistance in Nazi Occupied France" (Citadel Press, 2025)
Host: Jenna Pittman
Guest: Christopher C. Gorham
Date: September 9, 2025

---

Overview

This episode of the New Books Network delves into Christopher C. Gorham’s new book, Matisse at War: Art and Resistance in Nazi Occupied France. Gorham discusses how the legendary French artist Henri Matisse navigated the dangers, moral choices, and creative challenges of World War II, particularly during the Nazi occupation of France. The conversation explores Matisse’s family dynamics, evolving artistic output, and subtle acts of resistance, as well as never-before-examined facets of his personal and artistic life during wartime.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Gorham’s Background and Path to Writing the Book

• Gorham describes his early love for history, inspired by stories from his WWII veteran grandfather, and his transition from law to teaching and writing about history.

  “I could never overcome my love of history... In 2009, 2010, my wife and I decided that I'd get my master's in history and start teaching here in Massachusetts” — Christopher C. Gorham (02:25)

2. What Makes This Book Unique?

• While earlier biographies and scholarly works touched on Matisse’s WWII years, no prior book has focused exclusively on Matisse’s experience and his family's resistance under the Nazi occupation.

  “There has not been a full book-length treatment of what Matisse went through... and what his family went through.” — Gorham (05:28)

3. Sources and Research Approach

• Primary sources included extensive correspondence between Matisse and his children, especially his son Pierre in New York, as well as archives in Paris and letters with friends and fellow artists.

  “The letters between Pierre and his father in French... were just a gold mine.” — Gorham (07:08)

4. Matisse’s State Before and During WWII (1938–1945)

• Matisse, in his late 60s and early 70s, was experiencing personal and professional upheaval: ending his marriage, estrangement from parts of his family, and declining artistic notoriety.
  • He moved from Paris to Nice, partly for inspiration from the Mediterranean light.

  “He’s seen by a lot of his contemporaries as kind of this bourgeois guy... who maybe had his moment a couple of decades before, but by 1938... he's sort of being criticized as being this, you know, self-satisfied guy indulging in the pleasures of Nice.” — Gorham (09:02)

5. Letters and Family Dynamics

• The family was scattered: Pierre in New York, Marguerite (daughter) largely unreachable due to her Resistance activities, and Jean (son) also occupied elsewhere.
• Matisse’s companion during this period, Lydia Delectorskaya, became a point of contention within the family, deepening Matisse’s sense of isolation.

  “We get thunderbolts thrown at us from Nice.” — Marguerite Matisse, as described by Gorham (10:54)

6. Comparison: Matisse in World War I vs. World War II

• In World War I, Matisse’s sons were at the front, and his palette became somber — “muted” and “inscrutable” works, reflecting private anxiety.
• In WWII, health problems (abdominal surgery) confined him physically, leading to his famous cutout period: vibrant colors, but jagged and unsettling forms.

  “There is a sense of surveillance. There’s a sense of being watched... Part of that was the occupation... but it was from his own sickness... The cutouts are his most identifiable artworks from the Second World War.” — Gorham (12:42, 15:57)

7. Matisse’s Artistic and Personal Resistance Under Occupation

• Matisse’s attitudes toward the Germans and Vichy collaborationists were nuanced; he could despise the Nazi regime while admiring individual German artists, particularly those persecuted as “degenerate” by the Nazis.

  “He could admire German artists like Paul Klee but also kind of really hate the German military... he maintained that admiration throughout his life.” — Gorham (20:19)

• He subtly used his art to criticize and resist, remaining in France as a statement of defiant presence.
• The shift in Nice: under Italian rather than German occupation for much of the war, it temporarily became a (relative) haven, especially for Jewish refugees, until the Germans returned in 1942 (42:29).

8. Matisse’s Children: Active Resistance

• Marguerite (daughter) joined the French Resistance, acted as a courier, was arrested, tortured, and narrowly survived — a story previously little-known.

  “She winds up getting arrested. Unbeknownst to Matisse, she just kind of disappears... arrested, tortured... It doesn't look good.” — Gorham (32:07)

• Jean (son) worked with British intelligence from the south of France.
• Even Matisse’s estranged wife contributed to Resistance efforts as a typist.

  “His children really were playing a very dangerous game during the war.” — Gorham (32:07)

9. Pierre Matisse in New York: Cultural Rescue Mission

• Pierre Matisse facilitated the escape and establishment of European artists endangered by Nazism, creating a community and market for them in New York—helping shift the world’s art capital from Paris to New York.

  “For these exiled artists... the Pierre Matisse Gallery in New York City was like the cafe that they missed.” — Gorham (36:47)

10. Nice as a Character

• The unique political geography of Nice—Italian occupation, influx of Jewish refugees, and later violence—makes the city “a character” in the narrative. The region’s overlooked complexities challenge the myth of a tranquil artist's retreat.

  “Nice... is a character in this book... It is almost a location of civil war, French civil war during these years.” — Gorham (39:40)

11. Art, Hope, and Long-Term Perspective

• Despite the turmoil, Matisse maintained hope and perspective, believing in art’s endurance over politics or war. He found solace and resistance in his continuing creative work.

  “His view of the universe... is permeated by things that are longer lasting than the politics or the wars that we have. That's the magic of the artistic temperament.” — Gorham (26:46)

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Matisse’s philosophy:

  “If everybody leaves France, what will become of France?” — Matisse, as relayed by Gorham (43:45)

• Art reflecting resilience:

  “His subtle patriotism through his art... just by remaining in France, Matisse was a beacon to the young.” — Gorham quoting Françoise Gilot (46:59)

• On the cutouts and the ‘White Elephant’:

  “White is the color of animals in captivity... Matisse said, c’est moi, it’s me.” — Gorham (29:17-31:29)

• On Marguerite Matisse:

  “I don’t think there are very many people that know the great Henri Matisse’s daughter... suffered as much as she did for her country. She’s a real hero.” — Gorham (43:45)

---

Important Timestamps

• [01:33] — Intro & Gorham’s professional background
• [05:28] — On prior biographies and the book’s unique angle
• [07:08] — Research sources and correspondence
• [09:02] — Matisse’s life on the brink of WWII
• [12:42] — Comparison of Matisse’s art across world wars
• [20:19] — How Matisse navigated occupation, ideology, and risk
• [29:17] — The cutout period, “Jazz”, and artistic symbolism
• [32:07] — The Resistance: Marguerite, Jean, and family risks
• [36:47] — Pierre Matisse and the rescue of modernist artists
• [39:40] — Nice as a war-torn, politically charged setting
• [43:45] — Surprising research discoveries, including Matisse potentially sheltering refugees
• [46:59] — Matisse’s subtle patriotism and legacy
• [47:52] — Hints about Gorham’s next project on the New York art world

---

Conclusion

Christopher C. Gorham’s Matisse at War uncovers the depth of Henri Matisse’s experience under Nazi occupation, not just as an artistic innovator but as a subtle resistor and family man entwined in the broader currents of history. The book enriches our understanding of art’s power during crisis, the overlooked stories of Resistance, and the overlooked complexities of wartime France, especially in its southern regions.

Recommendation:
For anyone interested in modern art, the history of WWII, or lesser-known narratives of artistic and personal resistance, this episode — and Gorham’s book — provides a compelling, humanizing, and thought-provoking new perspective.

---

Transcript

[Shingles Patient]

I didn't think the pain from the shingles rash would affect simple everyday tasks like bathing, getting dressed, or even walking around. I was wrong though. Not everyone at risk will develop it. 99% of people over the age of 50 already have the virus that causes shingles, and it could reactivate at any time. I developed it and the blistering rash lasted for weeks. Don't learn the hard way like I did. Talk to your doctor or pharmacist today. Sponsored by gsk, this episode is brought.

[Progressive Insurance Advertiser]

To you by Progressive Insurance. Fiscally responsible financial geniuses, monetary magicians. These are things people say about drivers who switch their car insurance to Progressive and save hundreds. Visit progressive.com to see if you could save Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states or situations.

[Tito's Vodka Advertiser]

Tito's handmade vodka is America's favorite vodka for a reason. From the first legal distillery in Texas, Tito's is six times distilled till it's just right and naturally gluten free, making it a high quality spirit that mixes with just about anything from the smoothest martinis to the best Bloody Marys. Tito's is known for giving back, teaming up with non profits to serve its communities and do good for dogs. Make your next cocktail with Tito's, distilled and bottled by 5th Generation Inc. Austin, Texas. 40% alcohol by volume. Savor responsibly.

[New Books Network Announcer]

Welcome to the New Books Network.

[Jenna Pittman]

Hello, everybody, and welcome back to the New Books Network. I'm Jenna Pittman, a host for the Network. Today we'll be talking to Christopher C. Gorham about his new book, Matisse at Art and Resistance in Nazi Occupied France, published by Citadel Press in 2025. Beyond being the Goodreads Choice Award finalist for his first book, the Confidant, the Untold Story of the Woman who Helped win World War II and shape modern America. Christopher Siegborm is a man of many talents, which I will let him claim in just a moment. Christopher, thank you so much for being here today. Welcome to the show, Jenna.

[Christopher C. Gorham]

Thank you for having me. And thank you to New Book Network for having me on. It's my pleasure.

[Jenna Pittman]

Wonderful. I think it would be good if we could just begin by you telling us about your vast professional career, those many talents that I mentioned and kind of these wide ranging interests which led you to write Matisse at War.

[Christopher C. Gorham]

Sure. Well, I don't know if it's. What if it's a number of talents that I have, but I've had a single love for my entire life and that is the love of history. And it goes back to when I was a child, and my grandfather, who had served in World War II, would occasionally take this cigar box out of his closet. Now, you're too young to know what a cigar box was, but it was literally just a box that had cigars in it at one point. And he would take this out and show it to me. It would have, like, newspaper clippings and a medal or two from the war and photographs of he and his men as they were fighting in Germany and Luxembourg, places like that. I was just mesmerized. So, just always loved history from the very beginning. He also had a wonderful library that I had the free run of. Went to college at University of Michigan, was fortunate to have legendary history professor Sidney Fine. So that just deepened my interest in history. But also I was sort of, you know, what am I going to do with the history degree? And at the time, the economy wasn't very good, so I said, well, I'll go to law school and pay the bills. So that's what I did. And I practiced law for 13, 14 years. But, Jenna, I could never overcome my love of history. So in 2009, 2010, my wife and I decided that I'd get my master's in history and start teaching here in Massachusetts in suburban Boston. So for the last 14 or 15 years, I've taught modern American history at a high school here in suburban Boston. And it was through my high school where I came across my subject for my first book, a bio of Anna Rosenberg, who is an advisor to Franklin Roosevelt. And then that's led me to this Matisse book. Love of history.

[Jenna Pittman]

Yeah, I totally understand that. I remember. This is funny, and I don't want to get too off topic. First off, I grew up south of Ann Arbor. Wonderful place. And Ann Arbor is just like, beautiful town. It's hard not to love, like, being there and feel inspired and creative and just like, I want to learn about the humanities while you're there. But I had a similar thing. My parents were like, what will you do with a degree in history? And Now I'm a PhD student of history. But at 17, that was a tough sell, to be fair. So, yeah. But, yeah, that's absolutely fascinating. And I understand that it just. It never really goes away when you really like the literature and everything. So this book, Matisse at War, I think listeners are probably pretty familiar with Henri Matisse if they found this episode. And they probably think along the same lines as us of being interested in this topic. But has anything Similar to this book been written before. And if so, how does this differ? If not, why is it possible now?

[Christopher C. Gorham]

I guess and let me just first say that, Jenna, I think you've made the right decision to pursue your PhD in history.

[Jenna Pittman]

So it's a, it's a fulfilling day to day and year to year. So I like it.

[Christopher C. Gorham]

You bring the passion to your history and that's, that's important. There hasn't been, there has not been a book about the wartime years or the years of occupation in Henri Matisse's life. Of course there's a, you know, massive two volume bio by Hilary Sperling which just, you know, which is, will not be bettered. You know, that that will be the, the final word on the life of Matisse. But in, you know, because of the scope of that book, only a few pages are devoted to the years, you know, 1938 to 1945. And there's been books about scholarly books about artists under Vichy, under the Vichy regime, the collaborationist regime in France. But that said, there has not been a full book length treatment of what Matisse went through and indeed what his family went through. He had three children that we'll talk about during our chat today. And you know, they were involved, they were playing for stakes. So, you know, I'm hoping that this new addition to, you know, you can get Matisse T shirts, you can get Matisse, you know, paintings that you put on your dorm wall. But I'm hoping that this new book will shed some light on an artist that many of us think we know.

[Jenna Pittman]

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I think that's really important. I guess I'm curious because you've said there's been this pretty comprehensive history of Matisse's life and there's been other things about, you know, artists under Vichy France, but what information and sources did you rely on in writing this book and kind of, what was that research and writing process like?

[Christopher C. Gorham]

Well, I found the letters from, like I mentioned, he had three children. His second son, Pierre, lived in New York City from the time, you know, he was 25 years old really, until the end of his life. He died in the 19. Well, I mean, Jesus, his whole career, 50 year career in New York City. So the letters between Pierre and his father in French, but, but housed in New York at the Morgan Museum, were just a gold mine. They were wonderful. Pierre for much of the time, setting of the book, you know, 1938, 39 to 1945, 46, Pierre was his chief correspondent, least among his children. It was one his Eldest son really didn't write. His daughter, for reasons I will talk about, was unavailable to communicate with him. So it was Pierre. And those letters were a real treasure. The archives in Paris obviously provided other letters, say from his daughter Marguerite, and letters between his wife Amelie and Matisse. He was also a tremendous correspondent for all of his economy with words to his children because, you know, that's just how he had been raised by his father in the north of France. He was a tremendous correspondent with his friends and Pierre Bernard, chiefly among them, Charles Cameron, two other artists who he was lifelong friends with. And so those were also really foundational sources for me to put the story together.

[Jenna Pittman]

Yeah, yeah, I'm sure that's really fascinating. I guess diving into the book, kind of getting a sense of the history of Matisse and where he was at from 1938 to 1945. 46. Both his physical location, but just also his stage of life and his professional career. Where was he when, when the Nazis invaded France and that occupation period began?

[Christopher C. Gorham]

Well, he is in. He's in a world of hurt, you know, at this point, point in time. 1938, he was born in 1869. He's in his late 60s, early 70s. At this time, his long marriage to his wife is coming to an end. His life in Paris has now been altered. So he's spending part of every year, and more of every year, it seems, in Nice, which is down in the Mediterranean Sea in the southeast corner of France. So location wise, he's changed from Paris to Nice. He's no longer married to Amelie, and that's an obstacle for him or a wrinkle. His children now are, like I said, one's in New York. His beloved daughter is married and doing her own thing with her own life. And his son Jean is also married and doing his own thing. And then finally is art. He had been the leader of the foes. He'd been at the forefront of that school of the avant garde, but not 1938. By 1938, he's considered yesterday's news. You know, he's kind of this, you know, he's seen by a lot of his contemporaries as kind of this bourgeois guy who, you know, maybe had his moment a couple of decades before, but by 1938, you know, he's sort of being criticized as being this, you know, self satisfied guy who's indulging in the pleasures of Nice, this beautiful seaside city, while the Cubist and the other artists are remaining at the forefront. So his world is not wonderful. On the eve of World War II.

[Jenna Pittman]

Yeah. Yeah. It sounds like lots going on, I guess. I'm curious. His children being kind of spread out across the globe and him choosing to spend more time in Nice. What from his letters kind of led you to get a glimpse of how he was feeling in all of this, or also, how was he feeling?

[Christopher C. Gorham]

Well, one of his. I think it's Marguerite, his daughter, who is the eldest of the three children. I think her comment was, we get thunderbolts thrown at us from Nice. You know, he's this. I think, to them, during these years, he felt separated from the family. Certainly the family was scattered about, and he was living with a companion at the time named Lydia Dalitrovskaya, who at one point earlier had been, you know, basically household help to help with Amelie Matisse, Madame Matisse. But she stayed on. Lydia stayed on and became Matisse's companion and indeed muse and model for these years. So that also is something that the children found very difficult to deal with. So he was, you know, sort of separated and estranged a bit from his family, minus Pierre. He was still maintained his correspondence with his son in New York, but it was an uncomfortable moment for the Matisse family to have their father and niece with a younger woman and something that they found very difficult to forgive and to overcome.

[Jenna Pittman]

Yeah. Yeah. That's very interesting and I'm sure shapes a lot of his experience in World War II under occupation. How did his experience in World War II, or kind of the way that he navigated being an artist under Nazi occupation differ from his experience as an artist during World War I? Because he kind of has this long life that's shaped by this very tumultuous period in European history. He was an artist during World War I and then interwar and then World War II. So maybe, I guess, yeah. How. How did he handle all three of those phases? But then also, what was different about handling World War II?

[Christopher C. Gorham]

You're exactly right. This is a long life that this man led and lived and really three wars. I mean, because he was, you know, he was one year old when the Prussians occupied his hometown, which is in the north of France, not far from the Belgian border. So he was obviously too young to have direct memories of that, but he heard the stories. And, you know, when he was in primary school, they would sing these very nationalistic songs, you know, because it was. That was in the air. War was in the air. So World War I, you know, he's in his mid-40s, and, you know, some of his painter contemporaries are younger than he is young enough to serve in the trenches in the French army. And of course, Matisse wants to do that, but he can't because he's just too old. So he writes a socialist minister who's a friend of his saying, you know, can you pull some strings and get me into the. Into this war? I want to do my bit, not just with the paintbrush. And his friend writes back and says, it's not going to happen, but what you can do is continue to paint well. And he does that, and he does that in a very interesting way. In World War I, his sons are, you know, 15 turning 16, and 16 turning 17. And as the war goes on, they are of the age where they can be drafted into the French army, this terrible, you know, bloody First World War. And sure enough, his son Jean gets drafted, and then his younger son runs off and joins the French army. And his paintings at this time, Matisse's paintings at this time absolutely confound collectors and confound critics because they're very, very muted in color. Instead of the vibrant colors that he'd been known to use as a fove leader, he's using, you know, battleship gray and these deep and moody blues. And paintings like Bather by a River, the Moroccans and the Piano Lesson were just. They were seen as inscrutable. Just. And of course, it took many decades for these, you know, art scholars to say, hey, wait a second. You know, these were painted in 1916 during the Battle of Verdun, 1917, when both of his sons were serving in the trench, you know, serving in the French army. You know, maybe this was being filtered through his art. And of course it was. And I think In World War II, you know, he turns. Not only because of. He turns to doing these paper cutouts rather than even painting. They're extremely colorful, which is different than his World War I output, but they're very, very sharp and latently violent. And there is a sense of surveillance. There's a sense of being watched. There's a sense of being out of control or not in control of your own body. And part of that was not just the occupation in the war and the danger that his children were under, but it was from his own sickness. He had abdominal surgery in 1941, which doctors thought would be fatal. So he found it very difficult to stand at the easel. So he becomes a. He really pioneers a new technique where he's doing his work sitting down in a chair or on a bed, cutting pieces of very vibrantly colored paper into these amazing shapes. The cutouts which is his most identifiable artworks from the Second World War.

[Jenna Pittman]

Yeah. Yeah. That's really, really fascinating.

[New Books Network Announcer]

The summer has ended and fall is upon us. Days are getting shorter, it's getting cooler and you probably want to make your space cozier. And Wayfair is the place you should go to do it. It's really the trusted destination for all things home because Wayfair has everything you need to cozify your space. I know that in my case I want to disperse up my home office, so. So I went to Wayfair and I got some things. I got a new lamp and a new chair and I got some things to store the items that I use on my desk. I'm a busy person just like you are, so I really appreciate it. The delivery was fast and free. So now's really the best time for you to prepare for the fall and decozify your house. And you should go to Wayfair to do it. There's lots of things there. Bedding and bath basics, storage for every space, kitchen essentials, chairs and lamps. You can refresh your living room with recliners and ottoman seasonal rug. You don't have to go to multiple stores. You can just go to Wayfair and get everything you need. Cozify your space with Wayfair curated collection of easy affordable fall updates. Find it all for way [e-mail] that's W a Y-F-A-I-R.com Wayfair every style, every home.

[Progressive Insurance Advertiser]

Mint is still 15amonth for premium wireless. And if you haven't made the switch yet, here are 15 reasons why you should.

[Christopher C. Gorham]

1.

[Progressive Insurance Advertiser]

It's 15amonth. 2. Seriously, it's 15amonth. 3. No big cost contracts.

[Jenna Pittman]

4.

[Progressive Insurance Advertiser]

I use it. 5, my mom uses it.

[LinkedIn Ads Narrator]

Are you.

[Progressive Insurance Advertiser]

Are you playing me off? That's what's happening, right? Okay, give it a [e-mail] Switch upfront.

[Tito's Vodka Advertiser]

Payment of $45 for three month plan. $15 per month equivalent required. New customer offer first three months only, then full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra.

[Shingles Patient]

See mint mobile.com I didn't think the pain from the shingles rash would affect simple everyday tasks like bathing, getting dressed or even walking around. I was wrong though. Not everyone at risk will develop it. 99% of people over the age of 50 already have the virus that causes shingles and it could reactivate at any time. I developed it and the blistering rash lasted for weeks. Don't learn the hard way like I did. Talk to your doctor or pharmacist today. Sponsored by gsk.

[Jenna Pittman]

What about Nice, like, drew him to that? Did he just enjoy Nice more than Paris, or was there some external circumstances to that?

[Christopher C. Gorham]

Well, having been both to Paris and Nice many times, though, they each have their. Their wonderful parts. For him, it was the light. You know, the.

[Jenna Pittman]

The.

[Christopher C. Gorham]

You know, the Mediterranean light is. Is hard to even describe. I mean, it is so bright that, you know, toward the end of his life, his eye doctor was telling him, you know, you really have to close the blinds a little bit because you're looking at these bright colors all day long, and you have this Mediterranean sun coming in through your window. You're gonna have to preserve your eyesight. But he. Hillary Sperling, who is the biographer that I mentioned earlier, she said Nice provided laboratory conditions for someone who was a colorist to shape the future on canvas. So it was definitely the light. You know, he was searching for something, always in search of something in his art throughout his entire life. But when he found that light in Nice, that's one place that he stayed. And he painted many, many scenes, starting with flats and dingy hotel rooms, continuing to. When he was able to buy one property and then a second property there. But that was a lifelong locus for Matisse to do his art.

[Jenna Pittman]

Yeah, absolutely. And I'm sure those Mediterranean blues, just with how much he likes that, that very rich, vibrant color, I'm sure that was very inspirational to him. So kind of getting back to. I went down a rabbit hole with just, like, curiosity about Matisse. But going back to kind of these years of occupation, how did he navigate being under Nazi occupation? I know you mentioned that he had a surgery, but beyond that, I mean, it's kind of a significant period of time. And how did his kind of mentality or ideological approach to the occupation maybe change over time? Was he more resistant at first and then kind of just defaulted to living within these structures, or was he more ambivalent and then really over it by the end? Yeah, I'm just curious to hear a little bit about that.

[Christopher C. Gorham]

I think the best way to start is just by. By where he was. So the Germans invade in May and June 1940, and, you know, France is conquered within a matter of, you know, six weeks or so. At this moment, May and June 1940, Matisse's artworks are safeguarded at a bank in Paris, and he is sort of, you know, as Parisians are racing out of the Capitol, Matisse is racing to the capital to protect his life's work. And after he was satisfied that that was sorted Out. He then goes on a 100 day odyssey to get back to Nice. And why that's important is he's going through occupied France to the south, which was so called unoccupied France, but it was also the, the Vichy regime was in control of that, that southern chunk of France. And so even though it was not occupied by German troops per se, that was a collaboration, collaborationist government. But when you get to Nice, which had been attacked, if you can believe this, by Mussolini's Italy also In June of 1940, when you get to Nice, there's like this little bit of land around Nice which is a jurisdiction under the Italians at this point. And that's where, you know, that's where Matisse is living. So he's. The Germans aren't walking around unless they're on leave. The Vichy folks are more or less staying out of his hair because it's the Italians that have the jurisdiction at that moment. And this continues until November of 1942, when the Allies invade North Africa. And now, you know, that the Germans come down to Nice and it becomes a little bit hairier for everybody. As to his ideology, you know, what I found almost admirable about Matisse was he could admire German artists like Paul Klee, but also kind of really hate the German military. You know, he could do those things at the same time. So he didn't have a blanket hatred of the Germans. It was the, you know, the soldiers, the Boche, the, you know, the Krauts, you know, these words that they would use in French to denigrate the soldiers. It was the soldiers, obviously, that were the enemy. But the German artists, especially the modernists that he admired, he maintained that admiration, you know, throughout his life. And I found that very, very interesting. His attitude toward Vichy is a little less clear. And like I said earlier, there's people out there that have written that he may have even been, you know, maybe latently pro Vichy. I totally disagree with that. I think that's, that's just a wrong take. But he, you know, his criticisms of Vichy were, were muted. And I, you know, I guess I write that up to his age. He's 70 years old, he's in failing health, he's living with a woman who, you know, is a Russian national and a target of the authorities. So. And also his children are at risk because his daughter is going to wind up working for the Resistance and his son working for British Intelligence. So he had lots of reasons to not criticize Vichy in a full throated way, but he found his, his subtle and patriotic ways to criticize Vichy during, really throughout these years from 42 all the way to 45.

[Jenna Pittman]

Yeah. Wow, that's absolutely fascinating and I think really interesting how it sounds like he was able to maintain a sense of separation from the individual and I don't know, just separation from, I don't know. I'm trying to think of how to phrase this. He wasn't generalizing. All Germans are this political movement, this regime. He was like, this is still beautiful art. And I don't know the leanings of the artists that you mentioned that Matisse could still admire their work, but I think it sounds like he generally didn't get super caught in that, that wave of like all Germans or all French or all Russians that we kind of see in the, the World War narratives.

[Christopher C. Gorham]

So, yeah, he, he did not make any comments like that. And, you know, some of these German modernists, of course, were lumped in with him, you know, and with Picasso as the so called degenerate artists. So in a way, you know, they were almost on the same side. You know, whether they were Germans, whether they were Spanish, whether they were, you know, Dutch, whether they were French. You know, these, these modern artists that were all criticized and blacklisted by the Nazi authorities, you know, they all had something in common. You know, they were standing up for something that, that wasn't fascism and trying to resist fascism, and they were indeed the enemies of it. So I think that's probably why he was able to make that separation and to maintain that sort of humanistic view of the arts as transcending the war. You know, the war will end, the occupation will end, but these pieces of art that he admired will last for much longer and maybe even forever.

[Jenna Pittman]

Yeah, yeah. And I'm sure, I mean, so much of his life was kind of shaped and maybe defined by these very important political moments in Europe. He was born under occupation, and then he experienced World War I from the French side. And so by World War II, he probably, interestingly sees that as a temporary period of suffering that there will be, you know, there will be, it'll be fine on the other side.

[Christopher C. Gorham]

And yeah, I think, Jenna, that's a great point. I, I 100% agree with that. I think that's a wonderful point to make. And I don't think there's, I don't think there's enough, I don't think there has been enough written about Matisse. This is going back to your very first question about the effect on war on the career of Henri Matisse.

[Jenna Pittman]

Yeah. And I Mean, I guess, in a sense, I do want to be clear, like, that is kind of a position of his privilege within Europe at that time that, you know, he wasn't. He could see this as, like, there's hope after it. And, you know, I think that's important to recognize. But I guess just trying to understand his outlook during the war and his, I don't know, maybe ambivalence or just like, I'm just going to live under these structures and it'll end eventually. I think you can really only understand that from understanding the conditions that were formative to his upbringing, really.

[Christopher C. Gorham]

I think so. And his. I would also clarify that his hometown in the north was occupied three times. So it was. It happens to be in the path of the German army. You know, it's up there by Belgium. It's. That's where the Germans are coming through. So, you know, In World War I, you know, his. He was no longer in that hometown. He, you know, long since gone to Paris to do his art and become the leader of the foes. But his family members were under occupation. You know, I think his brother was sent to a German work camp in World War I and in World War II, same deal. That's in part of occupied France. So. But at the same time, you know, he has this view of the universe that is, you know, permeated by things, things that are longer lasting than the politics or the wars that we have. And I just think that's the magic of the artistic temperament to be able to say to oneself, this is really rotten right now. But in the grand scheme of things, you know, the Lascaux Caves were discovered at the same moment in history, like 1942. And Pierre Bernard wrote Matisse, you know, these cave paintings had been found from 30,000 years ago, and the colors were amazing. And those guys had a conversation about that, and they just. I'm thinking to myself as I'm doing the research, well, Yeah, I mean, 30,000 years is a lot, but when you talk about an occupation that might last four or five years, it pales in comparison to those schemes.

[Jenna Pittman]

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. It's really fascinating to think about, and I think that was really well said. I guess, beyond his kind of transition to these paper cutouts. I guess maybe we've talked about this a little bit. He changes his style under occupation, but that's more because of his own health issues, and he's still working with light and color and kind of holding his more traditional styles under the occupation. But is there anything else that seems to come across in his art, where he's just like. I don't know, that maybe is like an influence from the conditions of World War II.

[Christopher C. Gorham]

Oh, I think very much so. And I'm going to. I'm going to stick with. I'm going to stick with the cutouts. He meant to put those in a book that was very democratic. These were going to be paintings that would appear in. In a. In a book format. But the paintings could be. The pages could be removed, they could be put up on your.

[Jenna Pittman]

Your.

[Christopher C. Gorham]

Your office wall. They could be shared with friends, they could be rolled up and shown to others. So it was not meant for wealthy collectors. And his first name for this was Circus Le Cirque. You know, and I make the point in the book, you know, this is very much at odds with the Aryan Superman notion. You know, people that would be, you know, living under the big tents of the circus. And then finally, his final name for it was Jazz, which obviously connotes freedom and improvisation. And again, you know, the Germans, Jazz was an enemy, or at least American Jazz was an enemy of the Germans. So he chooses that on purpose. And those cutouts, Jenna, not only was the technique different, he was using the paper cutouts instead of painting, but the shapes were very different. He was known, you know, for these beautiful arabesques, these lovely lines of his and curves. But these cutouts, when you see them up close and you see them from the original book that came out in the 1940s, the colors are otherworldly, but the shapes themselves are almost violent in some ways. There's a lot of jagged edges. There's a lot of red welts. And one of the cutouts is called the white elephant, and it's a heartbreaking picture of a circus elephant balancing on a barrel. And someone said, what does the white elephant? Who's the white elephant? What does it represent? And Matisse said, c' est moi, it's me. Here's a guy who can hardly walk anymore. He's chair bound or bed bound, and he's kind of stuck, and he can't travel. There's no gasoline. And even if there was gasoline, he's not in good enough health to travel. And Lydia Dlektrskaya said, white is the color of animals in captivity. So he's filtering a lot of heavy stuff in these cutouts. And when you see them, they're very, in some ways unmet. They give you a latent sense of unease, of out of control, of, like I said before, being watched. And indeed, his daughter Marguerite was, it turns out, being Watched.

[Jenna Pittman]

Yeah, that's fascinating. And I guess I'm also just really interested in the aspects of his children because in some ways it seems like there's a little bit. There's aspects of this. This ideological. This kind of, like, artistic expression of him not agreeing with the conditions in Europe at the time. But then his children, you know, who are kind of products of him as well, are. His daughter is working with the Resistance, and his son is working with British Intelligence. Would you be able to talk about that a little bit? Because I'm. I'm just very interested in that as well.

[Christopher C. Gorham]

Absolutely. And at the Museum of Modern Art in Paris, starting in April and running until August was a exhibit of paintings and drawings that Matisse had done of his daughter, Marguerite. And it is, you know, amazing to see, but also very moving because, you know, she was, you know, she kind of goes silent in her correspondence during World War II, and he wonders, you know, she was very headstrong and she was very patriotic and very much did not like, you know, the Germans occupying Paris, where she lived. And, you know, she goes dark in her correspondence, and Matisse worries what's going on. And, of course, she had joined up a resistance cell and was acting as a courier. And, you know, she gets denounced. Somebody we don't know, you know, turns her in, and she winds up. I don't want to say too much, but she winds up getting arrested. Unbeknownst to Matisse, she just kind of disappears. But she's arrested. She's in. In Brittany, in a prison, in the Gestapo prison. Arrested, tortured, and, you know, it doesn't look good. Meanwhile, his son. And Matisse doesn't know this yet for. For several months, doesn't even know that she's been arrested. His son, eldest son, John, is in the south, married with children, but working with British agents, you know, from a town that's not very far from Nice. And again, you know, there are some clues that Matisse had an inkling of what his son was up to, and that would, of course, cause you tremendous anxiety. And so the, you know, the entire family was playing for stakes. You know, his wife, if you can believe it, his estranged wife was a typist for the Resistance, for one of the Resistance factions. So. And she winds up getting picked up by the authorities, too. So, you know, the. The idea that Henri Matisse was somehow not completely against the Vichys and against the Nazis, I think is a. Is a terrible take because, like you pointed out, you know, his children are. Are part of him, and they were, you know, willing really to risk their lives. At least his two children that remained in France willing to risk their lives for their country. And, you know, of course, Matisse was 70 years old at this time, so he didn't need to be throwing grenades. He was, he was a symbol of resistance just by being the greatest French modernist who refused to leave France in its darkest days. So for him, that was enough. But his children really were playing a very dangerous game during the war.

[Jenna Pittman]

Yeah, that's very impactful.

[LinkedIn Ads Narrator]

Your sausage McMuffin with egg didn't change your receipt. Did the sausage McMuffin with egg extra value meal includes a hash brown and a small coffee for just $5 only at McDonald's for a limited time.

[Progressive Insurance Advertiser]

Prices and participation may vary.

[American Express Advertiser]

Make your next move with American Express business Platinum. Earn 5 times Membership Rewards points on flights and prepaid hotels booked on amextravel.com and with a welcome offer of 150,000 points. After you spend $20,000 on purchases on the card within your first three months of membership, your business can soar to new high heights. Terms apply. Learn more@american express.com Business Platinum AmEx Business Platinum built for business by American Express.

[LinkedIn Ads Narrator]

Race the rudders. Raise the sails. Race the sails.

[Christopher C. Gorham]

Captain, an unidentified ship is approaching. Over.

[LinkedIn Ads Narrator]

Roger, wait. Is that an enterprise sales solution? Reach sales professionals, not professional sailors. With LinkedIn ads, you can target the right people by industry, job title, and more. Start converting your B2B audience today. Spend $250 on your first campaign and get a free $250 credit for the next one. Get started [e-mail] campaign terms and conditions apply.

[Jenna Pittman]

When we were talking about Vichy France and the French colonies in Africa, the Allies invasion of the colonies, all of these things, all that I have in my brain truly is like, the, the opening of the movie Casablanca and where it has, like, the explanation of, like, war is in Europe and it's got the map and it's got, like, the, the, the arrows of, like, the immigration pattern out of France. And I don't know why, but the more that we talk about it, I'm like, gosh, I have to watch that movie because it's not the same plot at all or story of, like, Matisse's life. But so many things I'm like, the resistance and the danger and the surveillance. All of the things I'm like, yeah, I definitely have to rewatch Casablanca this evening.

[Christopher C. Gorham]

There was one chapter in particular that was really, really fun to write, and it's the chapter about his son Pierre that's The one that's the son who went to New York and became a gallery owner and a great champion of modern art, both European modern artists and also American modern artists. And. But Pierre Matisse, in a way, as I argue in the book, was part of a network that was trying to get artists out of harm's way. Artists like Marc Chagall and Andre Masson and others. And although Pierre Matisse, you know, was not the secret agent like Varian Fry was in a hotel in Marseille trying to get people out, he was at the other end of that, that refugee trail. He was in New York, providing these artists, guys like Marc Chagall with a livelihood, a place to live, a place to show their art, a way to make money, a way to blend in with their new country. And for these artists, these exiled artists that came over in 1940, 41, 42, you know, for them, the Pierre Matisse Gallery in New York City was like the cafe that they missed. That was a place where they could go and they could have a cigarette and have a cup of coffee and look at some art and speak French with each other and have a little bit of home and a little bit of peace. So it was a really, really fun chapter to write. And there was definitely elements of Casablanca as I was writing that in my mind.

[Jenna Pittman]

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. That's very interesting. And that's such an interesting community. I'm sure that came out of his son's gallery. And kind of. I'm sure that there was a sense of not exactly the same, but in the same way that familial chain migration is like kind of one by one. I almost wonder, I mean, maybe that's your next book is just talking about this gallery.

[Christopher C. Gorham]

You're very smart. You're a very smart person. I do think that's a fascinating part of post war history too, because these very artists that came over during the war, really, not just them, but American homegrown artists like Rothko and Pollock and others, they helped make New York the modern art capital of the world, which had been, of course, Paris for a long time. And so it wasn't just the humanitarian story of let's save these people and these families, but it was also a story of a cultural shift in the United States that was very long lasting.

[Jenna Pittman]

Absolutely. It's very fascinating. So what does this book just more generally reveal about the occupation of France and just kind of this period from 1938 to 1945 in France? Obviously, your focus is Matisse's life, but it kind of seems like more than Anything. This is providing a different way to look at occupation in France.

[Christopher C. Gorham]

I hope so. I thought, you know, when my wife and I, over our many, many conversations about the book, we, we agreed that Nice, the city of Nice, is a character in this book and it's an important character in this book. And you know, we, I think people that are readers of World War II, they think they know the, the story of D day in Normandy, Operation Overlord, you know, maybe the liberation of Paris, they've heard those stories before, but I don't think people quite understand the liberation of the south. Liberation of Nice. Like I said, it was a very, very strange place to be in World War II because it was under Benito Mussolini's control for a while. Then it was under the German control for a while. And then it becomes the site of this four way war between the Germans, the Allies, who are getting ever closer to, because they're in Italy, which is very, very close, 30 kilometers away. And you have the right wing French militia in Nice, which is where their leader was headquartered. And you also have of course the French Resistance that are up in the hills above Nice trying to fight for freedom. So it is almost a location of civil war, French civil war during these years. And sort of the arguments that people made and continue to make to this day that, well, Matisse, he wasn't really affected by the war, he's just living in this beautiful, you know, among these palm trees and beautiful turquoise surf in Nice. The answer is clearly no. You know, this was a very, very dangerous place to be. Full of terrible violence, many of it, much of it French on French. So I think that's part of the story of the French experience, the trial that that country went through or that region of France went through that I hope is illuminating and one that has not been illuminated a lot what happened in the south of France during these years. And I hope that Nice, the character shines through for readers.

[Jenna Pittman]

Yeah, absolutely. And yeah, I mean, I'm no military historian and I am no expert on French geography and French World War II occupation boundaries, but I definitely never realized how Nice's kind of position in all of this or kind of what it's surrounded by politically and just it being like this kind of like, I don't know, it seems like you described Nice as like almost like a little bubble within France where there's a lot of French political tension. But then even beyond Nice, there's a lot of just European political tension more broadly. So it's very interesting, I guess, to kind of put it into Context in that way. And I've never fully considered that.

[Christopher C. Gorham]

So you're absolutely right. And even more sort of poignant is because it was under Italian jurisdiction for a stretch of this time. The Italians did not see it as their mandate to hunt down Jews and send them to concentration camps. So European Jewish refugees are pouring into Nice because, you know, they don't. There's no yellow stars in Nice. You know, you don't have to wear the yellow star. You're free to. You're free to live your life for the most part. And so, you know, 25,000 Jewish people are there, you know, and then, you know, of course, when the Germans come in late 1942, then it becomes a very violent place indeed. But, you know, I talk about. I don't want to say too much, but the experience for Jewish refugees in Nice is a very poignant one, which I talk about in the book.

[Jenna Pittman]

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. It's all very interesting. There is so much of just little morsels of history that I feel I'm being completely introduced to through this book, which means it's definitely good and it's doing something innovative. But what did you find the most interesting or surprising while researching and putting this book together?

[Christopher C. Gorham]

Well, it's a book about art and war, and I think we've talked a little about both, and I think that's a good thing. The things that surprised me were the Marguerite Matisse's experience. She is an amazing character. She was an amazing woman. You know, seeing those dozens and dozens, if not hundreds of drawings and paintings that his father did of her over the decades. You know, from the time she was a girl until she was, you know, after, you know, she was a grown woman. But it was a very moving experience. Headstrong, courageous, you know, willing to risk it all for the things that she believed in. But her story is. Was. Was quite eye opening. And I don't think there are very many people at all that know that Henri Matisse's daughter, the great Henri Matisse's daughter, the daughter of the person that, you know, painted. Painted the picture on your dorm wall or on your T shirt, suffered as much as she did for her country. She's a real. A real hero, I hope, in the book. And the other thing, the other surprise in the. In the research for me, was a comment that Matisse made himself. Your listeners, a lot of them will know about this guy Varian Fry, who is an agent that was sent to. From New York to Marseille, France, to rescue artists. And he wound up rescuing 2,000 people, and was recognized by the state of Israel for his work. Just a tremendously honored, brave guy. But Matisse was asked by Fry to come to the United States, and Matisse said, I'm not doing it. I'm staying here. If everybody leaves France, what will become of France? And that was very brave on his part. But it was a comment that he made to one of Fry's lieutenants, which indicated that perhaps Matisse himself, Henri Matisse, had been harboring refugees. He made this offhand comment to one of Varian Frye's guys, and I thought, wow, that's interesting. I was unable to triangulate that with other sources, but the one source will have to suffice. But I just found that incredible because it also is indicative, though, I think, of Matisse might have known more than he was letting on. You know, he was a smart guy, and he might have known a little more about his daughter's involvement or even his son's involvement than he was saying in his letters to his friends. So maybe keeping it to himself and translating on his canvases and his cutouts.

[Jenna Pittman]

Yeah, that's absolutely fascinating. Yeah, very interesting history there. And I don't know, the. The. The hopeful person in me is like, oh, I hope he was involved with the Resistance and was just like, oh, no, I'm a sweet. I'm a sweet old man. I just want to do my art, and I'm not. Well, just let me be. I don't know anything. I'm fine with. I'm fine with this political scene, actually. It's no big deal. And then he's just secretly, like, just as involved with his daughter, and. Yeah, that's very interesting. I hope it's true. But that's the. That's the tough thing about history, is that you can't always. You can't always prove anything. You get, like, a little bit of speculation here and there, which is.

[Christopher C. Gorham]

Right. Right. Well, what we can prove is, you know, his. His subtle patriotism through his art, which I talk in many, many chapters. And I think that that's. And, you know, Francois Gillot, who is Picasso's companion during these years, she was a young artist herself. She said, just by remaining in France, you know, Matisse was a beacon to the young. So I think that's just a wonderful thing. And, you know, she was there. She was in. She was in occupied France and lived through it. So for her to say that. And she was. Gee, she was about your age during these years. So for her to say that about Matisse was A pretty wonderful thing to say.

[Jenna Pittman]

Yeah, absolutely. All very fascinating. And again, just so many good, interesting sides of World War II that I've been introduced to by this book. So I kind of want to ask my usual last question. What are you working on next? What are your next steps here?

[Christopher C. Gorham]

Well, my publisher and I are in conversations and I hope that we are getting to the end of those conversations about the topic for the next book. I don't want to say too much, but hoping that it's going to be about art and war. The location might be New York City and it might involve Pierre Matisse again, but. And the transformation of New York into the modern art capital of the world. But it's got a couple of heroes that I don't think people know a lot about yet. So one is from the old world, one is from the new. And they were a married couple. But I'm hoping that publisher and I can put that story together and I can get on with my research and writing.

[Jenna Pittman]

Absolutely. That's fascinating. Please keep me updated on that because. Sounds very interesting. So for our listeners, Matisse at Art and Resistance in Nazi Occupied France, published by Citadel Press in 2025, is available wherever you get your books. Christopher, thank you so much again for being on the show today. Really enjoyed chatting with you. This was great.

[Christopher C. Gorham]

Jenna, thank you for having me. And thanks to the New Book Network for having us talk about this today. It's my pleasure.

[Progressive Insurance Advertiser]

That's the sound of the fully electric Audi Q6E Tron and the quiet confidence of ultra smooth handling. The elevated interior reminds you this is more than an ev. This is electric performance redefined.