Cindy Williams Schrauben, "Hank's Change of Heart" (The Little Press, 2025)

Summary

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Podcast Summary:

New Books Network – Interview with Cindy Williams Schrauben, Author of "Hank's Change of Heart" (The Little Press, 2025)
Host: Mel Rosenberg
Date: December 10, 2025

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Episode Overview

In this lively and warm episode of the Children’s Literature Channel on New Books Network, host Mel Rosenberg welcomes back children’s author and educator Cindy Williams Schrauben. Together, they discuss Cindy’s new picture book Hank's Change of Heart (The Little Press, 2025), delving into its inspiration, the creative process, the power of quiet lessons in children’s literature, and Cindy’s wider work to support fellow authors. The conversation also explores the challenges of the writing and publishing journey, peppered with humor, candid advice, and memorable anecdotes.

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Main Discussion Points & Insights

Introduction and Reconnection

• Reunion: Mel welcomes Cindy back after a three-year hiatus since her last appearance, praising her as both a talented author and generous mentor to other writers.
  • "I've been waiting over three years for your new book ... and it finally happened." (01:50, Mel Rosenberg)
• Author Profile: Cindy is noted for her deep involvement in education, sharing, and community-building among authors.

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About "Hank's Change of Heart"

• Plot Summary:

  • Hank, a young boy obsessed with hearts (rocks, leaves, drawings, etc.), initially keeps his prized hearts to himself.
  • Upon seeing a sad friend, Hank secretly gives her a heart, witnessing her happiness and undergoing a silent transformation—his own “change of heart.”
  • The tale quietly encourages empathy, sharing, and social-emotional growth.

  “He hides his hearts and keeps them all hidden away, all for himself … when Hank finds a friend who seems a little sad, he decides to just slip one secretly to her to brighten her day… and when he sees how happy that little girl is, he has a change of heart.”
  (03:12–03:30, Cindy Williams Schrauben)

• Publisher: The Little Press, celebrating its fifth anniversary.

• Illustrator Praise: Sasha Richards—the creative collaboration and surprises (like the recurring opossum character).

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Writing Books with Heart (and Subtle Morals)

• Mel observes a moral, even spiritual element in Cindy's stories, connecting them to a “Judeo Christian epic.”

  "There's kind of a moral undertone ... I try to keep them as general as far as that goes, so that hopefully they can speak to a lot of different people … instead of making them specific to … a certain religion."
  (09:13, Cindy Williams Schrauben)

• Cindy discusses her philosophy:

  • The challenge of embedding quiet lessons without being didactic.
  • Trusting the reader—especially children—to interpret the silent moments.
  • Value of "show, don’t tell": letting readers infer character motivation and growth.

  "I want them to figure it out for themselves. I don't want to come out and say, Hank changed his mind and decided that maybe … he needed to share … I wanted kids to see what happened and to say, aha."
  (11:16, Cindy Williams Schrauben)

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Growth Mindset and Encouragement

• Previous Work: This Could Be You—celebrates perseverance and growth mindset, with unexpected resonance among adults as well as children.

  • Cindy’s “Author Pep Talk” YouTube series, encouraging writers and sharing industry insights.

• On Perseverance: Both Cindy and Mel discuss numerous rejections, the psychological toll of the publishing process, and the need for passion—sometimes bordering on obsession—to keep going.

"It takes a lot of perseverance and it takes that growth mindset for sure."
(04:59, Cindy Williams Schrauben)

"There is so much pain. You're right. There is."
(31:34, Cindy Williams Schrauben)

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The Creative Process & Teamwork

• Traditional Publishing: The author usually has no control over the illustrator unless well-established, but the end result can offer unexpected and delightful new dimensions to the story.
  • Anecdote: The illustrator adding an opossum character unexpectedly, which grew on Cindy over time.

    “Sasha put in an opossum throughout the book in a few different spots…. I used to think they were so gross.... now he's endearing and I really think he's cute.”
    (17:04, Cindy Williams Schrauben)

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Book Activities and School Engagement

• Interactive Reading: Cindy keeps children engaged with audience participation (e.g., making heart shapes whenever the word “heart” appears).
• World Record Event: Shared the achievement of organizing 409 children to make and pass paper hearts around the school (under review for “Most Children Sharing Their Hearts” by Kids World Records).

  “The kids had a great time … and the record will be called the Most Children Sharing Their Hearts.”
  (21:19, Cindy Williams Schrauben)

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Industry Topics and Inside Glimpses

• Agents and Publishing Realities:

  • Cindy’s current agent, Michelle Jackson, negotiated Hank’s Change of Heart (a “Michelle Michelle” deal with publisher Michelle McAvoy).

    “Michelle Jackson hopped on board and negotiated the deal with Michelle McAvoy from Little Press. So, yes and no.”
    (23:10, Cindy Williams Schrauben)

  • Discussion of agent commissions, small advances, and the tough realities both authors and agents face.

  • Statistics: For every book deal, Cindy estimates writing 20 manuscripts and has about 50 ready-to-submit drafts.

• Middle Grade Writing:

  • Cindy is working on a middle grade novel (~80,000 words), finding the revision process far more demanding than for picture books.
  • Motivation includes personal challenge and the opportunity to expand her skillset and readership.

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Motivational Reflections

• On Passion vs. Obsession:

  “For me, passion is a good word, but obsession might even be a better word for me.”
  (31:37, Cindy Williams Schrauben)

• Encourment for Writers:

  • Cindy cites the importance of giving back, supporting others, and finding community.
  • Joke segment: Inventing the “Five O’s” to complement Vivian Kirkfield’s “Five P’s”—including “Obsession” and “Obstinance.”

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Reader Engagement:

  “You're looking for the reader, the parent, the kid to get into Hank's shoes and say, well, what would cause me to give away something that I hold as precious to somebody who's in need of it?”
  (10:50, Mel Rosenberg)

• On Letting Go of Creative Control:

  “Their creative process is different than yours and they bring in things that I didn't even think about. Right? So it's a beautiful balance.”
  (13:58, Cindy Williams Schrauben)

• On the Writing Life:

  “Obsession might even be a better word for me.”
  (31:37, Cindy Williams Schrauben)

• On Community and Giving Back:

  “If I ever became published, I was going to give back and try to help other people out.”
  (06:04, Cindy Williams Schrauben)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 01:35: Show proper begins, introduction of Cindy
• 03:01: Cindy introduces Hank's Change of Heart and summarizes the plot
• 04:37: Reference to Cindy’s previous book and its growth mindset theme
• 08:11: On translation into Spanish and cultural nuances
• 09:08: Discussing the moral/judeo-Christian undertones
• 10:39: Mel probes on the subtlety of Hank’s transformation; Cindy explains her minimalist approach to “the moment”
• 12:35: The illustrator’s process and creative surprises
• 17:04: The recurring opossum character anecdote
• 18:18: Origin of the book’s title and real-life inspiration: “ER rocks” from her hometown
• 21:17: Kids World Record heart activity
• 23:06: Cindy’s agent and submission story (“Michelle Michelle” deal)
• 26:20: Discussion of rejection rates, prolific writing, and middle grade pursuits
• 29:17: Why pivot from picture books to middle grade novels
• 31:37: “Obsession” as a motivator
• 32:07: Inventing the “Five O’s” for writing success

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Tone & Style

The dialogue is candid, warm, supportive, and often playful—full of mutual respect, encouragement, and inside jokes about the writing life. The tone mixes honest advice with joy, occasional frustration, and a sense of profound community among those who write for children.

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Conclusion

This interview is an engaging, honest look at both the heart at the center of Cindy Williams Schrauben’s new picture book and the realities of a writer’s journey—marked by perseverance, community support, creative surprises, and the quiet hope that one’s stories will inspire kindness and courage in young readers.

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Further Resources

• Cindy Williams Schrauben on YouTube: “Author Pep Talk”
• The Little Press: thelittlepress.com
• New Books Network, Children’s Literature Channel

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Transcript

[Cindy Williams Schaub]

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[Cindy Williams Schaub]

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[Cindy Williams Schaub]

Welcome to the New Books Network.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Yay. We are live. We are live. And a big welcome to my dear friend and author, Cindy Williams Schaubutt. It's so great to see you again.

[Cindy Williams Schaub]

Thank you, Mel. I'm so excited to be here again.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Well, I've been waiting over three years for your new book and for another opportunity to congratulate you and to talk to you. And it finally happened.

[Cindy Williams Schaub]

Yay. It took a while, but I'm back at it.

[Mel Rosenberg]

And I'm happy. And I'm sure that kids all over America are happy as well. Maybe other countries will have to find out in a minute. So, I'm Mel Rosenberg, and I am the host of the Children's Literature Channel of the New Books Network. And I'm here with the wonderful Cindy Schravam, who's not only a wonderful author, but also a wonderful human being, very involved in education, in sharing, in helping other authors break in. So welcome, Cindy. Tell us all about your new book, which is entitled Hank's Change of Heart. And it's with a relatively new publisher called the Little Press. I'm thinking to myself, oy vey. What happens if the company ever succeeds? It'll be the big little press.

[Cindy Williams Schaub]

Yeah, right, right.

That's a good point.

Yes. Thanks so much for having me. My new book, Hank's Change of Heart. I apologize I don't have it here with me today, but.

You'Ll have to look it up. This book is about a little boy who loves hearts, everything hearts. He loves to find heart shaped rocks and heart shaped leaves. He loves to make hearts. He loves to wear hearts. He's just obsessed with hearts. And Hank's not too great with sharing at first. In the beginning of the book, he hides his hearts and keeps them all hidden away, all for himself. And later on in the book, you'll have to read to find out that when Hank finds a friend who seems a little sad, he decides to just slip one secretly to her to brighten her day because they make him so happy. And when he sees how happy that little girl is, he has a change of heart. So you'll have to check it out to figure that all out. And yes, I'm with the Little Press. Michelle McEvoy is the founder and publisher there. She is a wonderful lady. The book she puts out are beautiful. I'm very thrilled to be a part of that. That group. Just yesterday the Little Press celebrated their fifth anniversary and so that was a lot of fun too.

[Mel Rosenberg]

So wonderful. And we've spoken over three years ago and I was in early stages of this channel, I remember, and we had a wonderful talk about your life and we talked about your debut book, which is a wonderful, wonderful book. I can't remember the name. The things you could be.

[Cindy Williams Schaub]

This could be you. You're really, really close. Yes. And I've had so much fun over the years with that book because it celebrates a growth mindset. So it talks a lot about, you know, how we can encourage kids to keep pushing and to not give up and that failure's okay and that we can learn from it. But. But the real surprise to me throughout that whole journey has been the way that adults needed to hear that message too. And so it has been really, really helpful for me to talk with adults and to learn that, hear them say, I needed that when I was a kid, but I still need it now. Right. So I've done a lot of work, most recently with adults on that fact, especially with other authors, trying to encourage them to keep pushing and to keep going because this is a tough journey. Being an author, it takes a lot of perseverance and it takes that growth mindset for sure. So I'm doing a little thing on YouTube that I call author pep talk, and I'm interviewing authors and illustrators and editors and agents and publishers on the journey of becoming an author. To try to. When I first started, there were so many people there to lend a hand and to give advice on how they, how their journey went and what worked and what didn't work and how to keep pushing. And I am confident in saying that if I didn't have those people along the way, I probably wouldn't have stuck with it and I wouldn't be a published author today. So I made a promise to myself at that time that if I ever became published, I was going to give back and try to help other people out. So that's what I'm doing. That's a lot of my time right.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Now, and it's wonderful. And this could be you is also you, Cindy. And when I think, you know, I have a book coming out also about a girl who ends up creating her own door, her own path to her own future. And even though it's a different gender, it's also part of our struggle. In other words, Emily Saw a Door is also based on my story of being rejected hundreds and hundreds of times. And I think that we have this in common. And our heroes are also, like, based on this perseverance factor.

[Cindy Williams Schaub]

Absolutely. It is. And I love. I got a sneak peek at Mel's book and it is great. I can't wait. And I'm going to have you come and talk with me on my channel, too. So thank you. Thank you, January.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Oh, this is difficult for me to be on other people's channels. I'm warning you, I'll try and behave myself. So. And if I'm not mistaken, was your previous book, which was with Cardinal rulepress, was it translated into another language or.

[Cindy Williams Schaub]

I'm forgetting it was. It's in Spanish also, so it's funny because I can't read it. And yes, it's the same story, but you know, there are different nuances when you translate. And so I was really excited one day when I was doing a bookstore event and woman came up and was excited to see the Spanish edition. And I said, oh, I wish I could read it. So she read it to me and that was really fun.

[Mel Rosenberg]

But yeah, that's wonderful. There's another thing that I wanted to bring up. I don't know. We never talked about religion, but Cardinal Rule Press is an almost religious in a good way publisher. And the little Press also has a religious side to it. Your books are like. For me, they're like, there's the Judeo Christian epic in your stories.

[Cindy Williams Schaub]

I think they are, because there's just.

Kind of a moral undertone to both of them, I think. And I try to keep them as general as far as that goes, so that hopefully they can speak to a lot of different people in a lot of different situations instead of making them specific to, you know, to a certain religion. But I, you know, when I first started writing, oh, like 10, 12 years ago, the whole.

Just issue then they were saying was, don't have your story, have a message. Don't write a story that has any, you know, that's teaching. And. And, yes, I agree. I don't want it to be. You don't want your stories to be didactic and to be do this, do this, and don't do that. But I think you can still bring in that learning factor without teaching. Right? And so that's what I like to do.

[Mel Rosenberg]

I think that that's what the good books, including yours, do. I agree there is a. There is a teaching element, but the book is about the story, and you have a beautiful story here. And I want to tell you what I like in particular is that Hank's change of heart, like, you don't really explain much.

In this critical moment where he sees the girl across the fence and she's sad, and he looks at her, and his change of heart is a silent change of heart.

[Cindy Williams Schaub]

Heart.

[Mel Rosenberg]

And the first time I read it, it kind of. Kind of pissed me off. Come on, Cindy. Come on. What caused this change of heart? And then I got it. You're looking for this reader response, right? You're looking for the reader, the parent, the kid to get into Hank's shoes and say, well, what would cause me to give away something that I hold as precious to somebody who's in need of it?

[Cindy Williams Schaub]

I love that. I love that you had that reaction, because that's exactly what I want kids to do. I want them to figure it out for themselves. I don't want to come out and say, Hank changed his mind and decided that maybe, you know, he needed to share. I didn't want to say that. I wanted. I wanted kids to see what happened and to say, aha, that's the. And that's kind of the way I work. And sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. I often, when I first start with a story like that, my critique partners might say, you need to. You need to come out with that a Little more than that. That was a little too subtle. So, you know, there's just a lot of back and forth figuring out that for me, where that sweet spot is to. To make it work without being didactic.

[Mel Rosenberg]

But I think you really did. And let's talk now. A. You don't have the pictures, but I'm hoping that people will run out and buy the book after this interview. I don't make any money from these things. I love what I love. So a few words about the illustrator and about the process. Because, Cindy, as I know you, you are a tiny bit of a. Not a control freak, but you like things done in a certain way. Speak to me, dear.

[Cindy Williams Schaub]

You're right. And yes, you can say I'm a control freak because I call myself.

[Mel Rosenberg]

I didn't say that.

[Cindy Williams Schaub]

I said.

Is really hard, the process. And I am so amazed how many people that I meet. Well, I guess I shouldn't be surprised because when I first started, I didn't realize this either. But people don't usually realize that if you sell your book to a traditional publisher unless you're really well established and have a lot of cred, the illustration process is totally out of your hands at that point. And so the illustrator is chosen by the publisher and then I'm out of the loop until it gets to the point where the. The illustrations are nearly done. I would say in one, some cases are different than others. And then at the end, I was asked if there was anything at all that I felt very strongly about. And she did a wonderful job. She got the point. She understood what I was trying to say. And I think that's always the fear at the beginning is, are they even going to know what I'm talking about? Because they don't want. They say, don't give all these Illustrator notes and don't try to tell them what to do. And honestly, even though it's hard, I think it really does make sense because their creative process is different than yours and they bring in things that I didn't even think about. Right. So it's a beautiful balance.

[Mel Rosenberg]

That is when we are lucky.

[Cindy Williams Schaub]

Yes, you're right.

[Mel Rosenberg]

So, well, shout out to Sasha Richards, who did such a lovely job on the. On the illustrations.

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[Mel Rosenberg]

And so is it possible, do you think, for people like you and me to. I also underwent this process of my book, Emily Salador. And I fell in love with Emily and I fell in love with the illustration. I feel like I'm the luckiest guy in the world. But is there a situation where you look at the pictures and you say, oh my goodness, that's not me. That's not my book. What happened?

[Cindy Williams Schaub]

I don't know.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Or it's like having a baby and you're going to love the baby no matter what it looks like.

[Cindy Williams Schaub]

You know, that's a really good question. I think there's always going to be things that are different than we envisioned them. But different can be good too. Sometimes. I will tell one funny thing that happened in these illustrations is Sasha put in an opossum throughout the book in a few different spots. And I love when they do that for kids to look for and find. But I used to think they were so gross. They really it was one of my least favorite animals. But now he's endearing and I really think he's cute. But that was a shock at first. When I first saw the book, I was like, oh, where did he come from?

[Mel Rosenberg]

Maybe it's never too late to love an opossum.

[Cindy Williams Schaub]

That's right. That's right.

[Mel Rosenberg]

So now I have another question.

I'm writing a story called Now Water under the Bridge. Right. It comes from the title. And you have such a catchy title here. I can't help but think that maybe you got the idea for the story from this. You know this phrase, a change of heart.

[Cindy Williams Schaub]

Yeah, for sure. At least that's where I got the title idea from. The whole idea.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Talking about the story.

[Cindy Williams Schaub]

The story.

No, it didn't. The story came from. My hometown is Eaton Rapids, Michigan. And so ER is, of course, the acronym that we use for the town. And at one point in time, and I think this happens in a lot of cities, the children would find rocks throughout town and paint them and put, er, rocks on them and then put a heart or a sweet message and hide them around town for other people to find. And so when they would find a rock, they'd be, yay, I found one. I found one. And so that was kind of my inspiration for sharing that secret love. And that eventually, toward the end of the book, spoiler alert, Hank starts hiding them or giving them to people, and then the rest of the town gets on the kick also. And so that's actually where the story came from. Instead of rocks, I wanted to make it a heart. And then change of heart came after that.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Really?

[Cindy Williams Schaub]

Yeah.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Wow. That is kind of. Wow. That's very fortuitous to have such a name. Wow.

[Cindy Williams Schaub]

Well, I'm all about puns. I love puns. And it was really fun.

[Mel Rosenberg]

I know, but to write a story about a change of heart, if I meant to say I'll call it a change of heart. You know what? I'm not sure I believe you, but we'll leave it at that for the moment. And the other thing I know about you, that you are a born teacher and you spend a lot of time in schools with children, and your books are. They're not only children friendly, but they're children activity friendly.

[Cindy Williams Schaub]

Thank you. I really appreciate that.

This could be you. The first book, the last line in every stanza is, this could be or it could be you. It will say, for instance, there's a page about an artist. And so the last two lines are, create. It could be you. And so I like to get the kids when I'm reading a Book, I point to them when it's their turn and they say it could be you. And so it keeps them interacted as a part of the story. And for Hank's change of heart, obviously the word heart is used. You know what, I just need to count. I'm not sure how many times, but many times throughout the book. And so I have the kids make a heart shape when they hear the word. And so I think it keeps them engaged also because they're working toward that.

[Mel Rosenberg]

But you told me about this amazing world record story.

Now's the time to tell the world, Cindy.

[Cindy Williams Schaub]

All right. It was so much fun and I can't wait to talk a little bit more about it once the kids World record people get done with their adjudication. We didn't do the Guinness Book of World Records, but we did the, it's called Kids World Records and they have individual records as well as group records. And what we did was the kids read, or actually the principal read the book to the whole school. And then 409 children made a heart in class. And we lined up around the school and you can imagine 409 kids, it was outside and so it wrapped around the school and we got, we got videos from above of them lining up. Then the kids, we did a countdown and they passed the heart to the child next to them. And when it got to the very end, their service dog took the last heart. They tucked it under his collar, and he ran it back to the beginning of the line while the kids cheered for him. So it was just a load of fun. The kids had a great time. And the record will be called the Most Children Sharing Their Hearts. So it was just really a fun way to get the kids involved. You know, let them hear my book and then I'll go in and do a school visit with them also. So.

[Mel Rosenberg]

So you have a new agent, Michelle J. I do.

[Cindy Williams Schaub]

I do.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Did she sell this book to, to the other Michelle? Was it a Michelle Michelle?

[Cindy Williams Schaub]

I know, it's confusing.

[Mel Rosenberg]

A Michelle Michelle sell, right?

[Cindy Williams Schaub]

Hey, she helped me with the end portion of that. I sent it to Michelle on my own before I was agented. And then Michelle Jackson hopped on board and negotiated the deal with Michelle McAvoy from Little Press. So, yes and no.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Does Little Press give little advances?

[Cindy Williams Schaub]

Yes, little.

So, yeah, yeah, it's a, it's still a small, still a small press, but like I said, they're, they're going gangbusters, so.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Okay, great. No, because sometimes.

Agents don't really want to sell books where the Advances almost zero. And I think, I don't know what you think, but I think that I'm going to say something crazy. Agents take 15%. And most authors say, you know, oh, 15%. I say, oh, they should get more.

They work so hard on our behalf.

[Cindy Williams Schaub]

They do. They definitely do. And it's kind of a thankless job for the most part because they get as many no's as we do. Right. They get no's instead of getting them from agents or little publishers, they get no's from the big publishers. And so it's hard. It's also hard, I think, because it's not only they're. They're. They're not only getting a no for themselves, but they're getting a no for us, and they have to pass that on to us. So I think it's, it's a tough job.

[Mel Rosenberg]

And I, I got to interview a lot of agents over the past five years, and I, I met quite a few in Bologna and. Including mine, and, and they are incredibly nice people.

[Cindy Williams Schaub]

Yeah.

[Mel Rosenberg]

You know, when you're in the trenches and you're submitting, it's so frustrating. And, but to be an agent and to get all these hundreds of thousands of, of submissions all the time, always, you know, if you, it's like, it could be like, if you're Stephen Fraser, he gets, I don't know, 10 or 20 calendars a year, and if you don't answer every day in the weekend, you already have like a thousand submissions to answer. It's. It's crazy.

[Cindy Williams Schaub]

It is. It is crazy. It would, it would be a really, really tough job, I think, to do. I, it would be really rewarding at times when you get to, to, you know, pass on that great news. But unfortunately, just like us, you know, we get a lot more no's than we get yeses. So it's tough even, Even when you.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Have a lovely book out, like, like you had it taken three years for your next lovely book to come out, so this can happen to all of us. And so I guess my next question is, for every yes, how many no's do you write? In other words, in this hiatus, how many manuscripts have you written? Like, I can write 30 manuscripts before I'll have one book deal, right?

[Cindy Williams Schaub]

Oh, I don't have that number in front of me.

[Mel Rosenberg]

And I think, well, I made mine up, so you can make your.

[Cindy Williams Schaub]

Right, I would guess.

Maybe 20 or so. And I have probably.

Close to 50 finished manuscripts that could go out at this point. And the only reason that I've slowed Down on that a little bit is that I'm working on a middle grade novel and so those take a lot longer. I'm on the fourth revision of that as far as completely reformatted, you know.

[Mel Rosenberg]

How many words, Cindy?

[Cindy Williams Schaub]

About 80,000.

[Mel Rosenberg]

80,000 words?

[Cindy Williams Schaub]

Yeah. And.

Now I'm starting over and turning it into a different point of view too. So it's almost like starting over. So it's. That is taking obviously a lot more time.

[Mel Rosenberg]

So to all the middle grade authors out there listening to us, I have utter reverence for you people. I don't know how you do it. I would rather, and I have done revise a book like Emily a hundred times.

Than work on an 80,000 word book.

[Cindy Williams Schaub]

Oh, me too. That's the problem, right? Is I've been frustrated.

[Mel Rosenberg]

That's my next question. Cindy, why the hell are you doing it?

[Cindy Williams Schaub]

Maybe because of all of the no's and feeling like it might help me to branch out a little bit. It's fun doing the writing itself. It's funny because when I write a picture book, I love the revision process because I feel like it's a puzzle and I can make it better. But. But the revision process for a middle grade novel is a totally different story because.

It'S not in a picture book. I'm very word focused. Right. And in a middle grade novel it has to be more big picture. And I'm not that good at big picture. I'm more of a, you know, I love to play with words and work on puns and do rhyming and so that. So when I get frustrated with the middle grade novel, I go back and write another picture book and, and then.

[Mel Rosenberg]

But don't they tell us, you know, when you've broken in and we had this discussion three years ago. Authors who break in with the traditional publication are one in a thousand or one in three thousand. And you've done this twice now. The conventional wisdom would say, Cindy, you've done it. You know, why change? You know, for a punishment, you're winning the quarter mile. You know, why do the marathon? Now?

[Cindy Williams Schaub]

That's a really good question. It is. I think part of it for me too is the challenge of it and thinking that, you know, I'm going to prove to myself that I can do this. But.

It'S funny because until the last few years, I was not a person who stuck with things very well. I didn't really have that growth mindset. If something didn't work or I didn't do well at it, I was done. And so Somehow this writing thing has gotten inside me and changed things. And I've decided that I want to see how far I can take it. And I think it's, you know, yes, I want to get my more picture books out there, but. But because I have so many that I feel like are already ready to go, I felt like I was spinning my wheels kind of. Right, because your agent can only send out one at a time, and that might take six months to a year before they can move on to another story. And I've got 50 of them sitting there waiting. So I felt like I needed something.

[Mel Rosenberg]

I, you know, I, I want to leave my agents, you know, 30 or 40 manuscript design cell after I'm gone so that they won't forget me.

[Cindy Williams Schaub]

I love it. Yeah. Love it.

[Mel Rosenberg]

It's. It's funny, you know, why do, why do we do this? It's. It's a kind of a crazy thing, you know, and, and we, we teach our friends, you know, keep doing it. Keep doing it. You know, persevere and this and that. And, and Steven Fraser, who I, who I mentioned, who's one of the nicest agents in the, in the, in the business, he gave a talk called the Passion of Writing Picture Books. And I, I interviewed him and I said, stephen, you call it a passion because you don't do it right. But, but the word passion, you know, in the. I. I'm Jewish, so I don't know, but in, in a Christian sense, you know, and the passion on the cross and everything, it's all about the joy that. That derives from, from the opposite of joy, which is pain. So you need pain to have the joy. But there's so much pain.

[Cindy Williams Schaub]

There is so much pain.

You're right. You're right. There is. But it is. I feel like for me, passion is a good word, but obsession might even be a better word for me, not only for you.

[Mel Rosenberg]

So you know our friend Vivian Kirkfield? She has the five P's. Perseverance. I can't remember what they are. Perseverance, Perspiration.

Perspication. Preponderance. I don't remember what they are.

[Cindy Williams Schaub]

I don't remember them all either, but.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Yes, but Cindy, now you're gonna have to invent the five O's.

[Cindy Williams Schaub]

Okay. All right, I'll work on that. That's fun. See that?

[Mel Rosenberg]

I'm gonna help you. Obsession.

[Cindy Williams Schaub]

Yes.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Obstinance.

[Cindy Williams Schaub]

Oh, for sure. You have to be obstinate.

[Mel Rosenberg]

And you're gonna have to figure out the others.

[Cindy Williams Schaub]

Okay, I'll get back with you. On that. See, that's the silly stuff I love to do, is to play with words. That's one of my.

[Mel Rosenberg]

If you ever interview me, I also have, like, my motto, which is the wedge, the ledge, and the edge.

[Cindy Williams Schaub]

Remember? Well, when you come talk with me on my channel, we're gonna talk about that. Don't forget. Don't let me forget.

[Mel Rosenberg]

I'm gonna have to remember what they mean.

[Cindy Williams Schaub]

All right, Work on that.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Amen. What haven't I asked you?

[Cindy Williams Schaub]

Oh, gosh. We Talked about my YouTube channel. We talked about working with the kids.

What's next? I think we've. I think we've pretty much covered it.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Okay, so let's. Let's sum up because this is our second. Our second interview. And so much fun to see that you published another gorgeous book.

And like you say, it's all about heart. It's a book that's all about heart. And so are you. So. I'm Mel Rosenberg, and I am the. I keep forgetting what I am. And the host. I should have this written down somewhere, you know, or maybe I should have a song. I'm Mel Rosenberg. I'm the host of the Children's Literature Channel on the new hatch Word.

[Cindy Williams Schaub]

There you go.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Now, in the previous. Before it was nbn, it was.

What was it called? It was called. You've got Mel.

[Cindy Williams Schaub]

You've got Mel. Right, right, right, right, right. And you've got.

[Mel Rosenberg]

No. Had a song.

[Cindy Williams Schaub]

I thought so.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Yeah. So we need a song. Okay, I'll work on the song. But in the meantime, I am the host of the children's literature Channel, the We Books Network. And I have been here with the wonderful, wonderful Cindy William Straubun, and celebrating her new book, Hank has. What was the name of the book I have here?

[Cindy Williams Schaub]

Change of heart.

[Mel Rosenberg]

Hank's Change of Heart.

[Cindy Williams Schaub]

Yes.

[Mel Rosenberg]

You see, I have it here, but I took off my glasses so I could see you better. That's another. That's another age thing. It's been wonderful seeing you again. And if you have me on your channel, I will have to prepare the edge, the ledge, and the wedge.

[Cindy Williams Schaub]

It's a date.

[Mel Rosenberg]

All right, thank you, Cindy. Thanks so much.

[Cindy Williams Schaub]

Thank you so much.

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[Cindy Williams Schaub]

Liberty. Liberty.

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