← New Books Network
New Books Network
Clara A. B. Joseph, "India's Non-violent Freedom Struggle: The Thomas Christians (1599-1799)" (Routledge, 2023)
00:37:46
Loading summary
Transcript44 lines
- [00:04]
Dr. Raj Balkaran
When did making plans get this complicated? It's time to streamline with WhatsApp, the secure messaging app that brings the whole group together. Use polls to settle dinner plans. Send event invites and pin messages so no one forgets. Mom 60th and never miss a meme or milestone. All protected with end to end encryption. It's time for WhatsApp message privately with everyone.
- [00:27]
Commercial Announcer
Learn more@WhatsApp.com this episode is brought to you by Jack Daniels. Jack Daniels and music are made for each other. They share a rhythm in the craft of making something timeless while being a part of legendary nights. From backyard jams to sold out arenas, there's a song in every toast. Please drink responsibly. Responsibility.org, jack Daniels and Old no. 7 are registered trademarks. Tennessee Whiskey, 40% alcohol by volume. Jack Daniel Distillery, Lynchburg, Tennessee.
- [00:55]
When the Moore family ditched cable Internet and switched to Zigly Fiber, they got so much more. Mr. Moore got more upload speed for next level gaming and live streaming to the masses. With reliable service, Mrs. Moore is no longer her family's IT guru, leaving her more time to stream games into overtime.
- [01:09]
Dr. Clara Joseph
Let's go.
- [01:10]
Commercial Announcer
And young Mason Moore got more done quickly uploading HD product demos and video conferencing without freezing.
- [01:16]
Dr. Clara Joseph
The numbers look good.
- [01:17]
Dr. Raj Balkaran
Brad, you're on mute.
- [01:18]
Commercial Announcer
Switch from cable Internet to Zibli fiber and get more of what you love for $65 less per month than cable@ziplyfiber.com.
- [01:26]
Welcome to the new Books Network.
- [01:30]
Dr. Raj Balkaran
Hello and welcome back to the new Books in Indian Religions podcast, a podcast channel here on the New Books Network. I'm your host, Dr. Raj Balkaran. More importantly, I have the pleasure of welcoming back to the podcast Dr. Clara Joseph, who is professor of English and adjunct professor of Religious studies at the University of Calgary, one of my alma maters. And we're talking about her brand new publication, India's Nonviolent Freedom Struggle, the Thomas Christians. Really fascinating topic, Sarah. Welcome back to the podcast.
- [02:01]
Dr. Clara Joseph
Oh, thank you very much. Yeah, thank you. And I'm glad to see you again.
- [02:05]
Dr. Raj Balkaran
Yes, yes. Tell us a bit about the genesis of this. What was the bija, the seed for this project? How did this unfold?
- [02:12]
Dr. Clara Joseph
So I started with Gandhi. Like many people, my first seminars on nonviolence were full of salt marches and spinning wheels. And that moral imagination, you know, is irresistible, I would say. But then as I read deeper into the earlier centuries, I kept tripping over little footnotes pointing south to south India. And those footnotes did not feel little. You know, So I followed one of those footnotes or doorways, you know, and landed in a room with Syriac prayer books, pepper ledgers, parish minute books and ledgers that sounded more like municipal memos than mystical treatises. So I realized I wasn't just looking at a devotional world. I was looking at a governance world. And that's when the penny dropped. Gandhi wasn't the beginning of India's nonviolence story. The Thomas Christians, the St. Thomas Christians of South India had been practicing, disciplined, organized, largely nonviolent, I wouldn't say always nonviolent, but largely nonviolent resistance centuries earlier. And part of why this looks familiar is personal. I grew up in a Thomas Christian family. And my first archives were the dinner table. Uncles, grandfathers arguing about bishops and councils, the old story of a Ben Stone cross at, you know, one place where the crowd pulled on ropes and took an oath. My mother remembering or my grandmother remembering fast days and feast days, you know, as if they were public holidays of the soul and so on. The first time I opened the decrees of the Synod of Tyampa, you know, then. And that's where I get into the various texts. And so actually that's. That's the beginnings, I would say.
- [04:15]
Dr. Raj Balkaran
Yeah. I mean, there's a number of really fascinating threads as. As you call them. Sometimes you pull out a thread and find a deeper pattern. So for those listening, certainly this podcast in particular, all of our podcasts are cross posted relevant channels. This one's certainly probably posted to Christian Studies and other relevant channels. But one huge fascinating topic, irrespective of the intriguing thesis of your book, is just the presence of the Thomas Christians. Like, who are the Thomas Christians?
- [04:43]
Dr. Clara Joseph
Yeah. So the Thomas Christians are an ancient Indian community. Today they are about 9 million. And they trace their faith to the apostle or their heritage, their Christian heritage, to the apostle of Jesus, Thomas doubting Thomas St. Thomas. And this community is a minority, but never a marginal one. For millennia, they were spice growers and spice traders, and their men served in the armies of Indian kings. So their courtyards, in a way, smelled of pepper by day and then drill dust by dusk. And that mix of commerce and military presence made them irresistible to the Portuguese, who thought, win the Thomas Christians and you get direct pepper roots. No Levantine, no Levantine middlemen, no delays. But here's the twist. They were not a colonial offshoot waiting to be discovered. They were already a confident, agency rich church rooted in tradition and trade. And when empire tried to move in, they had a polite but firm answer. Peace be with you by the hands of our bishops, our pepper and our place in the King's army.
- [06:07]
Dr. Raj Balkaran
That's really fascinating for so many, many reasons. I feel like just having an hour long conversation with you about the Thomas Christians. But nevertheless, I'm sure there are other podcasts on the network that folks can check out. So take us. I have sort of two overarching questions and maybe I'll ask them both to you because then you can interlace which one you would be the best segue. You mentioned in passing some of your sort of sources and I'd like to hear more about. What exactly are you drawing on to construct your argument? And also what is that prime takeaway? What do you most hope folks would take away from this? I mean, you mentioned both of these in passing, but I love us to drill down on this a little bit, first of all.
- [06:51]
Dr. Clara Joseph
So welcome to the book. So I set the stage and so here I'm talking about the structure in the first chapter I set the stage. So it's South India, it's chiefly the Malabar coast of early modern India. And you can kind of smell pepper drying on courtyards. You hear multiple languages in the markets. And on Sundays you'll catch a liturgy in Syriac, the language of the liturgical language of this community. And so you have the Thomas Christians presented there. They don't live as a privatized religious minority. Their church life and civic life interlock. They govern through yogam local assemblies where lay leaders, priests and archdeacons hash out both spiritual and temporal matters. Land, revenues, disputes, relief, even collective strategy. And so in the title of my book, you notice, you know, India's nonviolent struggle. So why does this non violence matter? Because the community's instinct is not to rush the fortress, but to organize, to petition, deliberate, vote, travel, and when needed, deploy ritual and symbol as instruments of freedom, but then also take up arms if pushed to that. So I talk about all of that in that first chapter. And then in the second chapter we come to the ambush. So the Portuguese enter and with them the padroado, that's the royal patronage system that ships the altar and the armory in the same hull. They don't just bring theologians, they bring governors, forts, licenses and notaries. So on the Indian side a combination of state and church. On the colonizer side, the combination of church and state. I mean this is the early modern period. And the key event that I highlight is the Synod of Dianpa of 1599. And on paper it's a pastoral cleanup, a reunion council. But in practice it functions like A constitutional rewrite which simply masquerades as a sermon. So yes, there are edits to books and prayers, but watch the architecture. Authority is rerouted. Property and appointments drift away from the yoga. Right, and no soldier pay for clergy, because clergy could be part of the king's army. You know, the. In one of the king in any of the kingdoms of India. And then another thing was compulsory clerical celibacy. So Thomas Christian priests were forced to take up celibacy. So and in an eastern milieu where many parish clergy are married householders, this is difficult. That is not just about chastity. It dissolves the clergy's household note in the pepper economy, credit, storage, trust, transport. It also makes priests more mobile and more manageable. Right from above. So paired together, these two moves are the one, two punch. You kind of weaken the church's hold on the local troops. Right, the chain of command. And the pepper, the chain of supply. Then you add bans on clerical trade. And by Sunday evening, the community still sings the creed, but the keys to logistics and loyalty are in new hands. So when I called Dianpa an ambush, that's what I mean. It was governance change dressed as religion. And the Thomas Christians, they don't run to the ramparts, they organize, they use the yogam, they minute resolutions, they take to petitions and travel, diplomacy, they migrate parishes and so on. Right, in chapter three. And can I cover a few more, Raj? We're okay?
- [11:06]
Dr. Raj Balkaran
Yeah, that's fine, that's fine. You can go through the outline, it'll probably make more sense. And then we can talk about some big takeaways after, right?
- [11:13]
Dr. Clara Joseph
Yeah. And so here in the third chapter, I cover, I would say what I can refer to as three major scenes. The Kunan crossroad, the churchyard in South India where too many people, when there were just too many people to fit inside. So ropes are tied to the open air stone cross. People pull together until the cross bends. It's political theater, but also meticulous organizing. And so I talk about all of that. And then interestingly, the recollects of Oedipali, a colonial, anti colonial monastery. I talk about that. And then the independent consecration of the archdeacon as the bishop. And I present it as an anti colonial stance rather than a sacrilegious, you'll go to hell kind of activity. And then in the fourth chapter, it moves to a national language emergence, 18th century itself. You know, delegates set out on foot across India. Then they move, they sail to Lisbon and Rome and they petition, they wait in antechambers they navigate rules and snubs. So we have figures such as Tamin Pare Makal, and he's written this. Vartamana Pistgum, the travelogue. And it reads like a litigator's notebook married to a pilgrim's diary. And out of those encounters, very painful encounters with colonial gatekeepers, something emergence, a new sentence, actually. And the sentence is, we are all Indians. And it emerges very early. And so this is that narrative. And in the final one, I bring the lens forward and the dynamics keep resurfacing. Contests over land and labor get framed as religion, because religion is the most portable label in the file system and the names change. Sister Rani Maria martyred in a landlord struggle. Sister Walter John standing against mining. Archbishop Raphael Chenath speaking after Kandamal. But the script feels very familiar. Economic contests narrated as conversion and so on. So that's where I. That's roughly. That's how I structure this. Sorry, which was your other question?
- [13:59]
Dr. Raj Balkaran
I was, you know, whatever segues best. What I'm interested in highlighting, because both are very significant, is one, the overall takeaway, the overall argument, the impact of the book, and also your meticulous methodology. Like, what are you looking at? Like, what are your sources?
- [14:16]
Dr. Clara Joseph
Right, okay, got it. Okay. So the. In terms of. Okay, before I go into the takeaway, then maybe I should look at the. Some of the data. All right, so the short answer is that my research has been equal parts archives and incense, the paperwork of empire on one hand, and the lived devotional record of a very old community on the other hand. So if you open the various archives, you come across some of the information I already shared, actually. You know, on the Synod of Dianpa, liturgical corrections, moral reform, pastoral tidings, you know, that kind of information in archives, even breviaries, Syriac church liturgical documents. So that one even where you can see the resistance occurring, even in the liturgical material, which is often dismissed as by the European Church, it would be dismissed as heresy, heretical and disobedience and so on. But you can see the. When you look at it from a postcolonial perspective, it is a different story. Then letters around the recollects of Arepalli. I mentioned the Aeropoli monastery anti colonial. So letters around that pepper trade records, ledgers as political theology. Right. Because pepper paid for parishes, this priest households often sat at the junction of kinship, credit, storage and transport. So when synodal decrees forbid clerical trade and make clergy celibate, those are not merely moral regulations. They pull the administrative USB out of the local Machine and the spice now must now flow through colonial forts, passes and patrons. And also these sources actually show how the characters, how and why the Thomas Christians read tooth and nail against the colonizers. And so data that takes me to these, to this kind of information is what I was looking for. In terms of the main takeaways, I would say, if I had to name three takeaways, I would say first, India's freedom struggle starts earlier than we think and farther south than we usually look. Second, the famous 1599 Synod of Dianpa was colonial strategy, governance change dressed up as religion. And third, nonviolence in India did not begin with Gandhi. It had already been practiced quietly, stubbornly, creatively by a small Christian community on the Malabar Coast. And I just want to go through a little bit of this on each of these. So we tend to imagine. So on the first one, Eastern Christians facing Western Christians, you know, was one of the situations. So we tend to imagine the freedom struggle as a 19th and 20th century North Indian story, mostly British versus Indians. But roll the clock back two full centuries and shift your map to South India. There, a community that sprayed in Syriac and traded pepper across the Indian Ocean. The Thomas Christians found themselves confronting the first Europeans to plant a flag, the Portuguese. And it wasn't just a theological disagreement. This was a collision of structures. The Thomas Christians ran their affairs through local assemblies called yogams, real deliberative bodies that managed both parish life and property and advised bishops. The Portuguese arrived with the padroato, a system in which church and crown traveled as twins. The altar and the armory, the missile and the merchant license, all in one ship's hold. The earliest face offs were therefore not British police versus protesters, but Eastern Christians refusing the new Western Christian governance model that sought to absorb them. So it's worth picturing the coastline at that time. You see warehouses of pepper, half a dozen languages mixing in the markets, yogams negotiating with local rulers, and then a flotilla arriving with a new vocabulary of power, visitation, correction, purification, trade only with the best, and so on. This takes us to the next takeaway about the Synod of Dianpa. And Diemp is often described as a well intentioned church council that reunited wayward Eastern Christians with Rome. But if you read the decrees as a package, you start to see a different picture. Imagine a software update that promises to fix your funds, then quietly takes administrative privileges and changes who holds the password. That's Dianpa. So there you find authorities rerouted, governance is rewired, personnel are reshaped, the economy is constrained and so on. So individually, each decree looks like housekeeping. Taken together, they're a constitutional rewrite. So I argue that DIANPA wasn't simply an act of Latinizing prayers. It was a political consolidation, colonial governance through ecclesiastical grammar. And the last I mentioned was nonviolence, that it did not begin with Gandhi. So Thomas Christian's response to this was not a sustained insurgency of arms, but a repertoire of nonviolent tactics that prefigure and sometimes complicate our 20th century picture. They use the Yogam as a forum to debate, vote and document refusals. The paperwork of dissent, minutes, letters, deputations, liturgical stubbornness. You know, when their books were amended, they continued to pray in Syriac, maintained older chant structures secretively and so on. Travel, diplomacy, delegations walked across the peninsula, right? And these things, economic leverage. So when licenses, forts and taxes pinched the pepper routes, they pushed cargo through alternative markets and ports. And that's non cooperation with the nautical map monastic initiatives. When indigenous monasteries were not simply praying quietly in a room, the community's ascetic life became a cultural engine and a safe house for dissenting memory. There were also symbolic actions, right, which were very scary at the time. As in, similar to the salt Satyagraha, there's the Kunan cross satyagraha. And then of course, very audacious ecclesial moves even. They even consecrated a local leader to keep the governance structure from collapsing. Right. And, and their statement was, we will not be headless. Right. And they were, they very, they were very innovative about how they would go about it and very. And the whole process was very scary. So that at one point the.
- [22:05]
Dr. Raj Balkaran
The.
- [22:05]
Dr. Clara Joseph
Padravado made plans to kill the Archtikans. It was that serious. And yeah, I think these are the major ones.
- [22:19]
Commercial Announcer
Finally in your wellness era, then you know, gut health is gut wealth. And with 20 years of science behind it, Activia can help keep those good guys keep gut vibes going. Deliciously smooth and creamy Activia probiotic yogurts and dailies have billions of live and active probiotics and help support gut health while you go about your day. Your gut is where it all begins. So start with Activia. Enjoying Activia twice a day for two weeks as part of a balanced diet and healthy lifestyle can help reduce the frequency of minor digestive discomfort.
- [22:50]
Upgrade your laundry routine with a durable and reliable Maytag laundry pair at Lowes, like the new Maytag washer and dryer with performance enhanced stain fighting power designed to cut through serious dirt and grime. And what's great is this laundry pair is in stock and ready for delivery when you need it the most. Don't miss out. Shop Maytag in store or online today at Lowe's.
- [23:18]
Dr. Raj Balkaran
Yeah, I think it's, it's absolutely fascinating to see many faces of resistance and the ways in which particular histories might have been overlooked or overshadowed. Could you perhaps comment on why you suspect this particular history or the acts of this particular community have really not come to light, to my knowledge, before this monograph? Could you comment on why they've been sort of obfuscated in sort of the cultural imagination?
- [23:52]
Dr. Clara Joseph
So there are, I think, a couple of reasons, and I'm talking just about the contemporary period. So in the contemporary period you have a case of the west and a case of the East. And I speak about this more, I think in my first book, Christianity in India, the Anti Colonial Turn. So in the west, the presumption is that the purpose of Christianity was to the purpose of colonization was to go out and Christianize the world. Nobody says the purpose of colonization is to go out and colonize the world, grab the trade and the resources of the world. The purpose is to make a profit. Nobody talks about that. So that civilizing mission story has continued to function in a particular way in the west and in the East. In the west, as the west grows more in areas where the west is right Orient, rightist, fiercely a particular form of, you know, faith and Christianity and so on, they staunchly believe that the purpose of colonization was to Christianize, and they think it was a good thing. And then you have the other party, the west in the west, but the secular world, the secular world says, you see, the purpose of colonization was to go and Christianize, and it is a bad thing. So in that story, the pre colonial has no logical space because Christianity begins with colonization. In both stories in the west now you turn to the East. In the east, with British colonization, Britain and its products became everything so that you fail to go. And I'm talking about postcolonial writers and scholars. They rarely look at what happened before that. So many don't get a full sense of that picture. And one community that falls out of that is the Thomas Christian community. The other is the right wing of India. Those also believe that the purpose of colonization was to Christianize. So it is again a swallowing of that Christianizing mission story. And therefore it is if there are Christians in India, they've all been converted by the British. And this is an indication that these Christians ought to go to Britain, go back to Britain, they're not really Indians. So that story stays there. Those who are on the left side of it as well take the same story. We'll be tolerant, of course, we'll be tolerant to everyone. But this is the historical fact that Christianity began with British colonization in India. Right. So when that story is the basis, there's simply no space for the pre colonial Christian story to come into, you know, that history to be looked at. There's simply no space. I think this is one of the.
- [27:32]
Dr. Raj Balkaran
Reasons that's eminently compelling to me. I know you know fairly little, aside from your book about this niche, but I know a thing or two about human beings and the extent to which narratives such as these are quite compelling for people. And I love the extent to which your and your skill in narrative and in literature is being leveraged to understand, not only to craft a historical narrative, but to understand the very narratives that the peoples of these histories were moved by. And this all makes good sense to me. The Thomas Christians, even before they do anything in particular, their very presence is an act of resistance. Their very existence is an act of resistance to all of these competing narratives. I find that utterly intriguing. You know, feel free to share anything else you might like to about the book or the project. And if you don't mind, I'd love you to comment on the antiquity of the Thomas Christians in your, in your opinion at this point.
- [28:33]
Dr. Clara Joseph
Sorry, what was your question?
- [28:34]
Dr. Raj Balkaran
So I would love, I'd love you to comment, share whatever you'd like, but also comment on the antiquity, on what you feel to be their antiquity. There's sort of, there's a, it's contested in terms of how long we've been in India. I'd love to hear your thoughts on that for our listeners.
- [28:49]
Dr. Clara Joseph
Right, right, yeah. Or in other words, you know, there is the question, okay, did St. Thomas, for example, come to India and when did the, you know, when did that happen? And so on. Yes. Yeah. So the Thomas Christian community in India has lived this tradition, the Thomas Christian tradition, for nearly two millennia. So they have their prayers in Syriac for the longest time, keeping distinct songs, dances, church architecture, the documents and chronicles that carry the memory of an apostle visit. They are a minority and historically a relatively prosperous one, even before colonial times. So inventing a fragile claim would hardly serve their interests. And uniquely, no other community outside India stakes its identity so thoroughly on St Thomas in the way the Thomas Christians do so in texts. By the late second century, we already meet Pantheon of Alexandria, and he reports finding Christians in India, and then he even corrects Them saying they should be standing up, not sitting down, to hear the Gospel. And so that's the first liturgical note left by a slightly bossy tourist, I would say a century later, the Acts of Thomas, late third century, gives us the earliest narrative of the Apostles arrival. So is it provable the way a modern boarding pass is? Ancient history rarely is. But the right question isn't only where is the passport stamp? It's also how we weigh evidence. Lived tradition, oral memory, material cultures and texts read with a critical eye. On that fuller scale, much as with Did St. Peter go to Rome? The St. Thomas tradition in India is not a rumor. It's a thick, continuous inheritance that has shaped a people's faith and public life for millennia. So, and that's what I would say about the antiquity of the Tanish Christians.
- [31:05]
Dr. Raj Balkaran
It seems, for those who are even looking for something along the lines of a boarding pass, we have. We have a report of a boarding pass from a couple centuries later, many, many centuries ago, as you mentioned. And the. There's always. It has to make sense, Right. Like, why on earth would. Would this community claim this obscure and sort of exotic character? Like, what's their vested interest in claiming this? Right. So what you say makes sense to me.
- [31:36]
Dr. Clara Joseph
That's right, yeah. Because these are traders, basically. Traders. I mean, regardless of the communities in India, people pray. And what do they pray mainly about? Let this pepper trade be successful. That's one of the major prayers. Right. And so their life is staked in that economy. And so by. And they have to trade with all castes, different kinds of castes, especially the upper caste. And the Thomas Christians were very much engaged with the upper caste. Many claim Brahminical ancestry and so on, but something like this, that would put them out of that caste or out of that circle would be highly risky for their trade. And so they would never, by any logic, claim to belong to a Thomas Christian tradition if there was no truth to that particular tradition.
- [32:47]
Dr. Raj Balkaran
Yeah. I have to say, and of course, this podcast, my function, my Dharma, if you will, as I see it, is to highlight the work, its cultures, its methods, its findings for a public audience, for our colleagues, for grad students, so they can be left, whether or not they wish to use it for research or teaching or general interest. And so I leave it up to specialists in this particular niche to decide whether or not your argument is compelling. It is to myself. But one thing that's clear to me as a lover of people and a lover of stories, is that you have a keen ability to discern the trace of A narrative through your sources. You have, you have a really, really, you're able to sort of see, read deeply into sources in a way that's quite compelling. I think some of your, I believe in the book jacket, if not mistaken, some of your endorsements also mention this. But you're, you're able to see the story in the sources and you know, you're able to understand why a story is part of the word history. It's not just because it's fake. It's because narratives are what move people and narratives are whether, whether leveraged by, by leaders or you know, grassroots. And so it's, it's clear to me that there's, you're able to really sift through sources and discern underlying themes. Patterns appear once you point them out. And once you point them out, you know, they're there, but they're not. You know, it's not easy for someone to discern those subtle patterns. So for that I think it's, I think that's a bit of a superpower of yours and you know, the, the specialists will have to adjudicate the findings of your book. But I just want to comment on what's clear to me, and especially for someone like you. Don't. This is not a book about narratives, but it's clear to me as a lover and as a scholar of narrative that you have a real knack for the narratives that move human lives.
- [34:38]
Dr. Clara Joseph
Thank you very much, Dr. Balkar. And because you yourself are in that field and you were sharing earlier on as well how, you know, your first love was English literature and then you moved on to Sanskrit literature and so on. So you practice a lot of what you are mentioning here as well. So. And I just wanted to also share that, you know, among the methodologies that I used, one of course is that I start with close reading, you know, treating synodal decrees and travelogues as texts whose words and genres smuggle in assumptions. Then I, you know, move on to link these, you know, each rule with practice and consequences. So if a decree says one thing, do parish minutes and the pepper ledgers confirm it? If so, it's structural. So, you know, I kind of move to that. And then there's postcolonial suspicion. I read religious reform as possible administrative technology. Modern language often masks conscious super property mobility, manpower. And then I turn the suspicion on our own frameworks, what I call a second look at decolonialism. Because even anti colonial narratives can erase indigenous Christian histories. Yeah, so you know that as some of my methods and of course, historical analysis, close analysis, reading of the primary sources, rereading secondary sources. Right. That interpret the primary sources, and so on. So I mix them, multiple methods, I think as I analyze the primary and secondary sources and then produce this project.
- [36:44]
Dr. Raj Balkaran
Well, excellent. I'm glad we can cover your book. So thank you very much for appearing on the podcast today.
- [36:49]
Dr. Clara Joseph
Thank you.
- [36:50]
Dr. Raj Balkaran
For those listening, we've been speaking with Dr. Clara Joseph of the University of Calgary on her brand new book, India's Nonviolent Freedom Struggle, The Thomas Christians, 1599-1799. Fascinating stuff. Until next time, keep reading, keep listening, keep well and keep contemplating the many faces of resistance. Bye for now.
- [37:29]
Dr. Clara Joseph
And Doug Limu and I always tell.
- [37:30]
Commercial Announcer
You to customize your car insurance and.
- [37:31]
Dr. Clara Joseph
Save hundreds with Liberty Mutual. But now we want you to feel it. Cue the emu music. Limu Save yourself money today day. Increase your wealth. Customize and save. We save. That may have been too much feeling.
- [37:48]
Commercial Announcer
Only pay for what you need@libertymutual.com Liberty.
- [37:51]
Dr. Clara Joseph
Liberty Liberty Liberty Savings Very underwritten by.
- [37:54]
Commercial Announcer
Liberty Mutual Insurance Company and affiliates excludes Massachusetts.