Podcast Summary

Podcast: New Books Network

Host: Praveen
Guest: Clay Risen (Author and New York Times Editor)
Book: Red Scare: Blacklists, McCarthyism, and the Making of Modern America (Simon & Schuster, 2025)
Release Date: October 8, 2025

Overview

In this captivating episode, Praveen interviews journalist and historian Clay Risen about his latest book, Red Scare: Blacklists, McCarthyism, and the Making of Modern America. The conversation explores the roots and impact of McCarthyism, the blacklist era, and how these forces continue to shape American politics, civil liberties, and political discourse. Risen offers nuanced insights into the historical context of the Red Scare and draws contemporary parallels, making the episode relevant and resonant for today’s listeners.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Clay Risen's Background and Perspective

• Growing up in Nashville: Risen describes his upbringing in a politically moderate family and how Nashville represented “middle America” – a testing ground for new products and, in many ways, new political ideas.
  "I grew up in Nashville, Tennessee... My grandparents were Republicans. My parents were Democrats. Not particularly extreme in either way." ([03:24])
• Political awareness: Risen’s early interest in journalism and debate prepared him for in-depth research and analysis, leading naturally into a career as a journalist and historian.
  "I was probably a little more aware politically than your typical kid. I followed news pretty closely, really wanting to be a journalist from an early age." ([03:24])

Opening the Book: The HUAC & Witchunt Parallels

• Parallels with Salem: Praveen notes the resonance between the HUAC trial of Helen Reed Bryan and the Salem witch hunts, to which Risen acknowledges the deliberate thematic choice.
  “That in some ways is the prototypical witch hunt… I wanted people to really kind of understand the context of the time and what it must have been like to be someone like her.” ([07:22])

America's Relationship with Communism and the Left

• A Centrist Country: Risen argues that the American left was always marginal compared to Europe, with the Communist Party remaining a small adjunct to mainstream politics.
  “...the progressive far left contingent in American politics is very small... the Communist Party... was never a force outside of certain communities in Chicago, Brooklyn, a few other cities.” ([08:54])
• Nuanced Threats: There were legitimate geopolitical reasons for concern about Soviet influence, but the domestic response often ignored nuance and descended into rights violations.
  “It’s not irrational for people in the United States to worry about what it means to have a group of people... of divided loyalty... Where the nuance has to come in is... what is the proper response that still respects civil liberties.” ([08:54])

Geopolitics & The Making of the Red Scare

• The Cold War Shift: The confrontational stance of Stalin's Soviet Union after WWII intensified American anxieties and is seen as a major accelerant for the Red Scare.
  “After... World War II, and the aggressiveness with which the United States and the west answered that challenge... it scared Americans.” ([13:30])
• Domestic Add-Ons: Domestic actors, especially conservative politicians, seized on this climate to discredit progressive policies by linking them to communism. ([13:30])

The New Deal, Prosperity & Political Apathy

• Changing Contexts: During the Great Depression and the New Deal, Americans generally supported policies that helped them; in the 1940s and 50s, political opportunists reframed these as communist threats, often finding public indifference.
  “Look, most people are not political, and they're only political when they're told that something is an immediate threat to their status quo.” ([16:16])
• Irony of Success: Risen observes that prosperity and stability breed political apathy, which in turn makes society more vulnerable to demagoguery and conspiracy theories. “One of the ironies... is that [the New Deal] was so successful that it allowed people not to think about politics.” ([19:43])

Truman's Loyalty Program & Executive Overreach

• Quick Fix, Lasting Harm: The Truman administration created a loyalty program by executive order, without adequate deliberation, setting in motion witch-hunt mechanisms.
  “Even Truman admitted that it was a rush job... A lot of the details about it ended up becoming serious bugs in the program.” ([21:56])

The Vanishing & Dividing American Left

• After WWII: The left splintered into those rallying behind the Democratic Party and those who became isolated progressives. By the late 1940s, the viable “real left” had largely disappeared.
  “To speak of a real left in the late 1940s in the United States is difficult. It was very much under attack, but it was shrinking on its own accord.” ([23:34])

• Dealing with Soviet Double Standards: The left’s split accelerates as former sympathizers abandon the Communist Party, disillusioned by Stalinism and the USSR’s repressive actions.
  “They split over Stalin’s pact with Hitler... the decision by the Communist Party in the US to... redouble its adherence to the Soviet Union.” ([26:19])

• Enduring Suspicion of Progressives: The Red Scare entrenched a suspicion toward anything labeled “leftist” that persists even today—though younger generations may be changing the narrative.
  “Anything that is labeled progressive or left is toxic... That is a legacy of this era that I wrote about.” ([28:43])

Violence, Uprisings, and National Security

• No Meaningful Armed Left: Risen debunks the notion that the US ever faced a real threat of leftist revolution comparable to Europe or Russia.
  “Certainly the Communist Party was never anywhere close to... being able to even dream of something like that.” ([31:02])

The HUAC and Political Opportunism

• A Career Tool: Both conservative Democrats and Republicans used HUAC to advance their careers and target rivals.
  “It was a tool for conservative Democrats to go after the mainstream Democratic Party… For Republicans... the committee was a great way for [Nixon] to raise his personal profile.” ([34:03])

• Why Not Sue McCarthy? Legal protections for senators, McCarthy's careful language, and the high cost of challenge created an environment where few dared contest him. “Senators can't... be sued for things they say in their... official capacity in Congress. McCarthy was very careful.” ([35:31])

• Fear as Control: Occasional efforts to stand up to McCarthy resulted in professional and electoral ruin for opponents.
  “People were afraid. They were afraid of his power, they were afraid of what he would do to them, the accusations against them.” ([37:10])

The Enduring McCarthy Template

• Norm-Breaking: Risen draws a straight line from McCarthy's disregard for norms to today's political polarization.
  “McCarthy's tactics... and cynical view... still exists today.” ([39:59])

The Red Scare as a Racial Animus Catalyst

• Peekskill & Racial Fear: The Red Scare often served as a vehicle for old racial hostilities, especially in the North. “Old unreconstructed anti-black racism was not unique to the south... civil rights as a political cause was... unpopular... and... linked... to communism.” ([43:28])

Labor Leaders, Blacklists & the Cost of Dissent

• Harry Bridges as Case Study: Even those whose Communist ties were unproven were relentlessly targeted if they were left-leaning or inconvenient to power centers. “He ended up making two kinds of enemies... the government... and other labor leaders.” ([46:39])

• How Many Were Lost? While only several thousand were overtly fired for “loyalty issues,” the indirect toll—via lost jobs, careers, opportunities, and chilling effects—was much greater.
  “Tens of thousands of people in a, you know, broadly speaking, were affected negatively in some way by this period.” ([50:35])

• Long-Term Damage: The purges led to tangible national consequences, e.g., in Asia expertise (feeding policy blunders like Vietnam) and overall reluctance to dissent. “We punish dissent and... the consequences is enormous and in some ways incalculable.” ([53:09])

McCarthyism as Performative Patriotism

• Aggressive Jingoism: Risen discusses the idea that McCarthyism was "Americanism with its sleeves rolled up"—performative, bullying patriotism.
  “McCarthyism is... all about declaring a very aggressive loyalty... a form of jingoism... If you don't agree with me, I'm gonna punch you in the face.” ([54:50])

Asymmetry and the High Road

• Those who challenged McCarthy were disadvantaged by their adherence to principle and decorum, while he and his ilk thrived off the low road. “Oftentimes... if your enemy... is taking the high road and you take the low road, you're going to win.” ([56:58])

The Fall of McCarthy & Lessons for Today

• Role of Murrow and Welch: McCarthy’s undoing came through televised exposure and a pointed, emotional repudiation during the Army-McCarthy hearings—“Have you no decency?”—which crystallized public revulsion.
  “Edward R. Murrow... just putting him on camera... [Joe] Welch... set a trap... ‘Have you no decency at long last?’... McCarthy never recovered from that.” ([62:58])
• Modern Parallels: Risen is guardedly optimistic that today's America might produce its own “Murrow or Welch” to confront political extremism, albeit using new media.
  “It’s going to be someone who understands exactly how social media and... our current culture... operates and... call out those sorts of politicians.” ([66:49])

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the Red Scare’s roots:
  "After the end of World War II... the aggressiveness with which the United States and the west answered that challenge... scared Americans." — Clay Risen ([13:30])

• On political apathy as a curse of prosperity:
  "One of the ironies, I think, of American, of the New Deal is that it was so successful that it allowed people not to think about politics." — Clay Risen ([19:43])

• On McCarthy’s power:
  “It's one of those things... hard for someone who wasn't in the middle, including myself, to imagine... at the time, the incentives and the context were such that it took an enormous amount of courage to get up and say something." — Clay Risen ([37:10])

• The decisive moment:
  “Have you no decency at long last?” (Joe Welch to McCarthy, recounted by Risen) ([62:58])

Timestamps for Important Segments

| Topic | Timestamp | |-----------------------------------------------------|---------------| | Clay Risen’s background and approach | 03:12–07:04 | | Helen Reed Bryan & Salem witch hunt allusion | 07:04–07:22 | | The left in American politics | 08:30–13:08 | | Causes and context of the Red Scare | 13:08–15:38 | | New Deal, prosperity and political apathy | 16:16–20:39 | | Truman’s loyalty program | 21:41–23:25 | | The fragmentation of the American left | 23:25–28:28 | | Recurring internecine conflict on the left | 28:28–30:52 | | No real threat of armed leftist uprising | 31:02–33:52 | | HUAC's role as political tool | 34:03–35:16 | | Why no legal pushback against McCarthy | 35:16–39:54 | | McCarthyism as template for today | 39:54–41:44 | | Race and the Red Scare (Peekskill) | 43:13–45:23 | | Harry Bridges, labor, and blacklists | 46:23–50:31 | | How many lives/careers lost to the Red Scare | 50:31–54:40 | | McCarthyism as Americanism, performative patriotism | 54:40–56:41 | | The fall of Joe McCarthy | 62:58–66:25 | | Contemporary relevance and hope | 66:42–67:47 |

Concluding Thoughts

Red Scare is not only a history book but a mirror for understanding America’s persistent anxieties, suspicions, and the fragility of civil liberties when fear becomes weaponized in politics. Risen’s thoughtful analysis, presented in a dynamic and accessible dialogue, underscores why McCarthyism’s legacy continues to resonate—and warns why it must not be forgotten.

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