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Constance Bailey, "Conversations with Kiese Laymon" (UP of Mississippi, 2025)
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- [00:00]
Dr. Constance Bailey
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- [00:23]
Kiese Laymon
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- [00:25]
Dr. Constance Bailey
Off site wide plus a professional measure at no cost.
- [00:28]
Kiese Laymon
Rules and restrictions apply.
- [00:30]
Marshall Po
Hello everybody, this is Marshall Po. I'm the founder and editor of the New Books Network. And if you're listening to this, you know that the NBN is the largest academic podcast network in the world. We reach a worldwide audience of 2 million people. You may have a podcast or you may be thinking about starting a podcast. As you probably know, there are challenges basically of two kinds. One is technical. There are things you have to know in order to get your podcast produced and distributed. And the second is, and this is the biggest problem, you need to get an audience. Building an audience in podcasting is the hardest thing to do today. With this in mind, we, we at the NBM have started a service called NBN Productions. What we do is help you create a podcast, produce your podcast, distribute your podcast, and we host your podcast. Most importantly, what we do is we distribute your podcast to the NBN audience. We've done this many times with many academic podcasts and we would like to help you. If you would be interested in talking to us about how we can help you with your podcast, please contact us. Just go to the front page of the New Books Network and you will see a link to NBN Productions. Click that, fill out the form and we can talk. Welcome to the New Books Network.
- [01:37]
Sullivan Sommer
I pledge to never be passive, patriotic or grateful in the face of American abuse. I pledge to always thoughtfully bite the self righteous American hand that thinks it's feeding us. I pledge that white Mississippians and white Americans will never dictate who I choose to be or what symbols I choose imbue with meaning. I pledge to not allow American ideals of patriotism and masculinity to make me hard, abusive, generic or brittle. I pledge to messily love our people and myself better than I did yesterday. I pledge to be the kind of free that makes justly winning and gently losing possible. To never ever confuse cowardice with courage. I pledge allegiance to the Mississippi Freedom fighters who made all my pledges possible. I pledge allegiance to the Baby. Mississippi liberation fighters coming next. This is my pledge of allegiance to my United States of America and to my Mississippi. Ready or not, this is a pledge to my home. Are y' all standing up? The words of best selling and award winning author Kiese Lehman, as reproduced in the latest from the University of Mississippi Press's conversation series, Conversations with Kiese Layman, edited by Dr. Constance Bailey, assistant professor of African American Literature and Folklore at Georgia State University. I am thrilled to welcome both Dr. Constance Bailey and Kiese Lehman to the New Books Network today. And Constance as the editor, I want to start with you. Welcome.
- [03:16]
Dr. Constance Bailey
Thanks so much, Sullivan, for having me on today.
- [03:19]
Sullivan Sommer
So in, in your introduction to this collection of conversations, you talk about becoming acquainted with Kiese's work in graduate school when a friend recommended his novel Long Division to you and you write, it could have just been because it was a really dope book, but I like to think that she messaged me because it was a novel by a black writer from Mississippi and I reeked of Mississippi. What does it mean to reek of Mississippi?
- [03:50]
Dr. Constance Bailey
Oh, that is such a great question. You know, I think I hate, I hate to use cliches, but I often default to cliches because they're just so familiar and they're just so convenient, right. They, they just kind of immediately, you know, they're evocative, I think, and especially this idea of like, you can take the girl out the country, but you can't take the country off the girl. Right. And so that's kind of what I meet. So I meet a lot of folks who are from Mississippi. I have colleagues who are from Mississippi, lots of other scholars and creative writers and all. And, you know, all those things. And I don't know, I think it's, you know, just something about being one from the rural part of the state and just having just such, you know, I was telling my students the other day, like, I grew up, like, chewing sugar cane bark, you know, like, oh, you can't have anything sweet, you can chew on this sugar cane. You know, just things that are, you know, I think, specific to if you grow up in a rural area in the South. So I think I just really wore my southernness and my Mississippi ness, if that's a word. You know, it was very much despite all of the sort of problematic and very real, you know, disturbing history, for lack of a better word. Right. I don't want to whitewash it, but there are lots of things that could be said about Mississippi that aren't great. But, but it's also such a. I don't know, I mean, I think people who come out of Mississippi have a certain ethos about them, at least folks like Kiesa, folks like my friend Addie Kitchens, who's also a. You know, she recently released her first novel, Dominion. I don't know, we just have a very sort of down home feel, if that's an expression that's familiar. So, yeah, and I was very much. I just wore it on my sleeve as a point of pride. Like when I met one of my friends in grad school and she was from Mississippi, I was like, hey, I'm from Mississippi. You know, it's like when I see Mississippi license plates, I still try to identify the part of the state. I was like, oh, that's such and such county. Okay, that's in the southwest part of the state. Like, I still heavily identify with Mississippi even though I haven't lived there in many years. So. Yeah, I don't know if that answers.
- [06:11]
Sullivan Sommer
The question, but yeah, so this, this book, Conversations and the Conversation series, I learned about it. So I didn't know anything about it. I am not from Mississippi. I learned about it when I happened to follow Kiese on social media because I am a huge fan, as you know, who could read his work and not be a huge fan. And so I was following him and he talked about this book coming out and what it meant to him to be included in the Conversations series. So can you talk about this series that this book is a part of?
- [06:52]
Dr. Constance Bailey
Yeah. So it's a series that's probably very familiar to, I would say, probably career academics and certainly some creative writers, especially those who've been featured. It's one of the, I think, signature series that the University Press of Mississippi produces. And it's really, I think, unique in that it really profiles not just writers, critics, even directors. There's a new release of Conversations with Julie Dash that I'm really excited to get, that a colleague just edited. But it's one of their kind of long standing series. It's always, I think I may be a bibliophile, I'm not entirely sure, but I certainly hoard books. And so whenever I see them at conferences, you know, I always, it's a very accessible, affordable book. Usually, you know, like, I think conversations with KSA layman is probably retailing for about 25 bucks. But then once, once it's been around, I think after a while they're usually like, they'll sell for 10 or 15 bucks. And so it's like, oh, there are these Editions that I can get about all of my favorite writers. So I can get like 10 of these for 100 books. And I have so many of them. And so, yeah, so it was just a. It's a series that's near and dear to my heart. I would always see representatives from the press at usually my American Folklore Society conference. And at one of those conferences, I made kind of informally the pitch, like, hey, you know, you're the University Press of Mississippi. You should have a conversation series with Kiesa. And they like, oh, yeah, that's, you know, because a lot of times it's. It used to be, I think historically, a lot of times people would be curating these interviews after the writer had passed or when they were sort of, you know, like, older. Right. And so I really, really thought, like, why not capture. I think maybe Kiese had just won the MacArthur Grant. I think, you know, he was, you know, heavy, of course, had already come out when I pitched it. And so it was just like, you know, let's strike while the iron is hot, you know. And so I, Yeah, I was just really excited about the project. They were very excited. And I was going to go text them now, so they're like, really? Yes. And so, you know, sure enough, he was familiar with it, of course, because when you're like a young, like, early career scholar or academic, it's one of those things that you kind of cut your teeth on because. Because it is interview. So it's not really heavy, dense, academic material. So you, you know, a lot of times, you know, people will read them. It feels to me like an easy read. And sometimes if you're not especially familiar with, like, a writer's Uber, you can learn a lot about up through other. These other lenses, you know, through these various interviews. And so, yeah, I was really excited. I was. I was super. You know, I was just really glad that they were so interested and excited and it made the process a lot easier. Sometimes when you want to pitch something to a press, it's a much more formal process. But they were, you know, but. But they were. Yeah, they were really receptive. And so it worked out. It was. It was pretty seamless after that. I was like, yes, I would like to enter, you know, I would like to curate this collection. Can I do this thing? I think the particular acquisitions editor I was working with said, you know, let me just, you know, since it is something early in his career, let me just make sure. But then when she, you know, checked with the. The senior editor, they were like, yep, it's Great, let's do it. So.
- [10:29]
Sullivan Sommer
So I, I want to dig into a couple of things that you just talked about that I think are interesting. And one is. So you do. You knew Kiesa ahead of time? Like, were y' all friends or was this a, like, talk about the relationship? Because I think that's an interesting point.
- [10:45]
Dr. Constance Bailey
Yeah. So. So Kiese and I. I know, and I probably said this in the introduction. It's not, certainly not singular to me. Right. But he's, you know, like a play cousin. Right. And so after, after finding out about his book and when I was teaching in Southern at Southern. Southern Miss, I wanted to. Yeah, I've always tried to create these, these experiences for my students. If it's a foodways class, I'm like, hey, let's go support a local, you know, black restaurant. Or let's, let's, you know, let's provide some non perishables and snacks to, you know, unhoused folks, you know, as a way of service or like, let's create a conference. So as always, you know, how can I create an experience for my students? And so we were reading long division and I wanted to bring him in. And colleges and university budgets have always been, especially in the humanities. Right. Because we don't bring in money like the sciences. So it's kind of like a roll of the dice whether you'll get funding. And at the time, long division. And some of his essays, I don't know if the full collection was out, but this was like early in his career because I think I left Southern Ms. In 2015. So this would have been 2012 or 2013 that I was teaching the book. So certainly was still fairly early in his career. But still, whatever his fees were, I couldn't afford them. And so I sent an email like, hey, I'd really like you to talk to my students. Is there any way we can, you know, like, what are your fees? Maybe I can pull together like three or four or five organizations that like, co sponsor this. He's like, we could do that. Or I might just be able to Skype. And this is how old this conference work. I was like, yes, that'll be great. Yeah, we could, we could. Let's. Let's Skype. And so sure enough, he agreed to Skype into my class. And we had done that for many years. Like one time it was like Facebook, I think messenger has like a calling feature or something. So whenever I would teach his work, I would try to do that. So, you know, health notwithstanding, or if he had this Kind of scheduling conflicts, then sometimes it didn't work out. But when I finally got a budget, like, actually had some control over, like. Like I was planning the speaker series for the African American Studies program at the University of Arkansas when I was there. And so I said, hey, we should bring in Kiesa Layman. They were really receptive. So I think we did probably that time maybe formally go through his agent, you know, and so was like, I can actually pay you. Like, I can actually, you know, I feel like, in many ways, like, finally pay you your worth for all of the free, you know, quote unquote conversations. Right. That he had with my students, which I think were so invaluable to them. And so. So that was the. That was probably like 2019, I think it was for sure pre Covid. And that was our first time, like, meeting in person. And so we just kind of, you know, stay. We. We know a lot. Mississippi, Black Mississippi is. Is small, but not small. You know what I mean?
- [13:55]
Kiese Laymon
Sorry.
- [13:56]
Dr. Constance Bailey
It feels like everybody knows each other in. In. In a strange sort of way. So. So yeah, so we. We. That. I mean, that's how we know each other. Not for real. For real, but sort of.
- [14:08]
Sullivan Sommer
Okay. You said something else that was really interesting about the Conversation series. And again, these are. This is a collection of interviews.
- [14:17]
Dr. Constance Bailey
We'll talk a little bit.
- [14:18]
Sullivan Sommer
There's some of the interviews I want to talk a little bit more in detail about and understand your. Your methodology for pulling them together. But something that I was surprised when I. So I get the book. It's a relative. You know, it's a pretty slim volume. And you said, you know, hey, young academics and whatnot. You know, it feels like an easy read because these are interviews. So I get this volume and it's, you know, it's not very long. It's less than 150, 120 pages. And I think, oh, okay, this is going to be a. This is going to be a quick read because it's very short.
- [14:49]
Kiese Laymon
It.
- [14:49]
Sullivan Sommer
It's a slow read. And I don't mean that as a negative. I shouldn't say slow in the negative. It's a. The way that. The way that one sits down to read a poetry volume. And it's very short, but it. It takes time to. To work through.
- [15:04]
Dr. Constance Bailey
Yeah. I mean, no pun intended. I feel like it's heavy. Right. It's weighty. Right. That there is. There's substance to it. But it is a. To your point, it's a. It's a thin volume. So part of it is KSA does a great job. And I know, you know, this. Of curating his. His stuff, so I. He did, like, a lot of the work for me because I just went to his page and like, stole some of those interviews. Like, oh, this is really, really good. Like, but. But I mean, the. The process of. There's labor in having to transcribe them. There's labor in trying to reach out to like, the Guardian and all of these different public. I mean, so. So there's labor. Let me not be dismissive in that way. So. So there are a couple things that happen. Some of them are, like, incidental, like, because I had access and they allowed me to, and they were generous and said, yes, you can, you know, just credit us. You can reproduce it for free. Right. And there were some that I felt really strongly about, but they have a finite budget. And so it was like, you know, even. And I'm always sort of thinking strategically, so even when I pitched it, I'm like, you know, in five or ten years or after the next, you know, couple books come out, we can do the re release, you know, so it's like, let's just do this one, you know, for now, because, like, let's strike while iron is hot. Like I said, he had it recently, I think one of MacArthur. So I was super, super excited. Again, the rep from the press was really, really excited. So it all worked out really, really well. So I think again, there are a couple that were like, the folks were just so generous. I thought, okay, these are relatively short. They're accessible so students can read them. I really didn't want, like. Cause I often teach KSA's work, so I really wanted students to be able to read them. So that's why some of those are there. And then a couple of the longer ones, especially, like the one where he's talking about Tate Reeves and about the flag, where he doesn't have much of a. Like. And this is probably the one that you read from, right. To start with. It's. His presence is. Is huge, even though it's a relatively small portion of that interview. Right. So I just thought, you know, a collection of interviews from a Mississippi writer should engage issues like the state flag, which was sort of huge when we, you know, think about, you know, at the time, of course, the country was sort of reconciling, right. The value of these symbols and what does it mean to. To, you know, to revisit those. Those symbols and their. Their meaning. And so, yeah, I mean, so. So some of them were just important for different reasons. Right? Yeah, I think I feel like. Yeah. And then the. The. I think it's also sort of unique because the interview that Kiese conducted with Chokwe was kind of was different. Right. Because almost unilaterally, most conversations are people interviewing the subject, you know, the author or the director or whoever. So I just thought, like, this is how important Mississippi is to Kiesa. I really, really want to do that. And then it also helps, like, I know one of the editors, so I just text to say, hey, can I get access and permission for this interview? And she's like, sure, whatever you need. So. So that, you know, again, sometimes it works out just like that because, you know, it works out that way. So. Yeah.
- [18:24]
Kiese Laymon
Constance, thank you so much for, like, being you. Thank you so much for this book. I haven't even been able to talk to you since I actually felt it. Yo, it's so dope.
- [18:34]
Sullivan Sommer
Not.
- [18:35]
Kiese Laymon
Not my part, but, like, you. Like you.
- [18:38]
Dr. Constance Bailey
You.
- [18:39]
Kiese Laymon
This is interesting about curating. You curated the book out of that mug. Like, people. I have people who. I don't know who, for whatever reason, read a lot of stuff I write. And, like, man, they've been talking about how that mug is, like, they're not gonna use the Bible word, but that's what they say. You know what I mean? You just did an incredible job. I just wanna say that. And Sullivan, thank you for making space for us. That's very generous of you.
- [19:02]
Sullivan Sommer
Yeah. Well, and it's. It's great to have you both on the New Books Network and. And hopefully people will pick up a copy of Conversations and go back and re. Either read for the first time or reread your work Key essay as well. So I'm excited to have this conversation. One of the things, Constance, you said at the beginning when you were talking about this project materializing, is you said the Conversation series, a lot of times works with authors or features authors who have passed on and that it was important. You. You had this idea to have an author who was in their prime. Was the word.
- [19:49]
Dr. Constance Bailey
Was the word that.
- [19:50]
Sullivan Sommer
That you used. I. I'm curious about Kiesa, how that lands with you. Like. Like to have someone say, well, you're in your prime. We want to do this now. You're in your prime. Are you in your prime, do you think?
- [20:04]
Kiese Laymon
Lord have mercy. Ooh, I'm gonna say something to give my brain time to actually come up with an answer. So can I just say, though, the Conversation series, I mean, that's why I laughed about people. Some people I Know, calling it a Bible, because when I got kicked out of school and went up to. I went to Jackson State first, and then I went. I went to Millsap, Jackson State, and Oberlin. And when I went to Oberlin, like, that Toni Morrison conversation book was my bible. You know what I mean? I was an exercise fanatic, and anytime I got on sort of exercise machine that was stationary for that first year, I mean, that book was. It meant so much to me. And then I went from that conversation series to, like, the Baldwin book, did the same thing, tore it up, and I went from that one to the right one. So, yes, I definitely thought to be worthy of a conversation book, you had to not only be, like, dead, but you had to be dead for me a decade or two, you know? Yeah, fam. I do hope I'm in my. I hope this is. That's a great question. I hope this is my prime, meaning the way I write. And, like, you know, I don't really know how to write without, like, I can write well without putting my heart into it, but the only writing that I write that I think is worthy of people watching is when I put my heart into it. I'm 51 now. I'm kind of tired of busting my heart. I kind of want to write some shit just, like, after this next book. Good God. I kind of just want to, you know, write like, a travel journal or something. So I'm really cool with, you know, someone saying this is my prime. I don't want to be prime at 55. I want to be, like, declining at 55. To tell you the truth, I'm being straight up. Nobody ever asked me that. That's a beautiful, like, wonderful question. But I hope after. Good God. I hope. I hope I peek at that, and then I hope it's downhill, because that's enough for me. I want to start writing stuff that doesn't take as much effort.
- [22:00]
Dr. Constance Bailey
Yeah, Yeah. I suspect there's an emotional toll to the. To the. To the writing that is personal in the way that most of your writing is. So. Yeah, we'll take a travel volume from you. Absolutely.
- [22:13]
Kiese Laymon
I already got it set up. I already got it set up. I mean, I could tell you. I got. I got, you know, Ray Thompson. You know, Ray Thompson. He wrote the Barn White Brother from the Delta. I always put him and Jim Henson as, like, the two best white boys to come out. Yeah, yeah. He. He talked about hook. Hooking me up with. Well, I know what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna be traveling for A year going to basketball games and writing about it. After I do a good guy. After this good guy comes in, I'm sure that, that, that that's. That. That this book is taking a lot. But. So, yeah, I'm. If this is my prom. Yes. Not trying to be one of them. No. Like, oh, I don't want to be in my prime till, like, I'm 70. Why? No, I do not. Not me.
- [22:56]
Dr. Constance Bailey
No. That's great. And Sullivan, you didn't ask me this question, but, I mean, just to speak about why I really, really felt so strongly about doing it for ksa. Like, one. He had done so much for me, just in terms of giving back to my students. I was telling Sullivan before you got on that the first time I taught long division, you Skyped my students. That's how long ago it was.
- [23:20]
Kiese Laymon
Skype. That's right. That's right.
- [23:22]
Dr. Constance Bailey
That's crazy. That's not even a thing anymore. So people. Some people Skype. What is that? But, you know, I'm just a big. I mean, and this won't be a surprise to you, but I'm just a big fan of, you know, giving folks their flowers while they're. While they're here. And as a matter of fact, I'm sharing the local. The local organizing committee for the American Folklore Society. And I. I created a flower ceremony to honor a senior African American folklorist because my mentor has been struggling with cancer. And I'm like, I don't know how many more conventions he will be with us. You know, like, I hope he's with. We're 10 or 20 or 30 more. But on the off chance that that is not the case, you just never know, you know? And so since tomorrow is not promised, I'm like, I'm not going to wait. Because in many cases, yeah, people are in the sunset of their careers or they've gone on with ancestors. I'm like, you know what? Kiesa deserves a. Who else in Mississippi? You know, Like, I. And I hadn't told her this yet. Like, hopefully in a few years, I'll pitch Conversations with Addie Kitchens, because that's my homie. Because way way back, you know, but it's like, give people their stuff now. Like, why are we waiting?
- [24:31]
Kiese Laymon
So, yeah, I love you for that. I just love you for that. I mean, because that's more than will. And I just think you can see from that, from the book you just made, like, there's just. You have to also just have to be like, a visionary to even take that sort of thought to the page because they could easily be like, man. No. And, you know, like, you know, the way I revere Jasmine. I mean, of course, see, to me, Jasmine could have had a conversation book five years ago, but for you all to make it happen together, like, as much as I think we both mean to one another, I just think that was. It was just very. I felt very lucky and the kind of human I am when good things happen, I always think I'm gonna die. So, like, that's another reason I'm glad you put this shit out, because I'm just like, oh, shit, it is. It's literally downhill from now, you know, like, yeah, yeah. So thank you.
- [25:24]
Dr. Constance Bailey
Well, we won't put that into the atmosphere, but for sure.
- [25:28]
Kiese Laymon
Downer. I'm a downer. That's what I do.
- [25:32]
Dr. Constance Bailey
Yeah. Yeah. So good.
- [25:35]
Sullivan Sommer
So good.
- [25:35]
Dr. Constance Bailey
So good.
- [25:36]
Kiese Laymon
New fall arrivals are at Nordstrom Rack stores.
- [25:39]
Dr. Constance Bailey
Now.
- [25:39]
Kiese Laymon
Get ready to save big with up to 60% off. Vince, Kurt, Geiger London and more. How did I not know Rack has Adidas?
- [25:46]
Dr. Constance Bailey
Because there's always something new.
- [25:48]
Kiese Laymon
Join the Nordy Club at Nordstrom Rack.
- [25:50]
Dr. Constance Bailey
To unlock exclusive discounts on your favorite brands. Shop new arrivals first and more. Plus, get an extra 5% off every.
- [25:57]
Kiese Laymon
Rack purchase with a Nordstrom credit card. Great brands, great prices.
- [26:01]
Dr. Constance Bailey
That's why you Rack.
- [26:07]
Sullivan Sommer
When did making plans get this complicated? It's time to streamline with WhatsApp, the secure messaging app that brings the whole group together. Use polls to settle dinner plans, send event invites and pin messages so no one forgets mom's 60th. And never miss a meme or milestone. All protected with end to end encryption. It's time for WhatsApp message privately with everyone. Learn more at WhatsApp.com adjective used to describe an individual whose spirit is unyielding, unconstrained.
- [26:41]
Kiese Laymon
One who navigates life on their own terms, effortlessly. They do not always show up on.
- [26:46]
Dr. Constance Bailey
Time, but when they arrive, you notice.
- [26:49]
Sullivan Sommer
An individual confident in their contradictions.
- [26:54]
Dr. Constance Bailey
They know the rules, but behave as if they do not exist. New team.
- [27:00]
Sullivan Sommer
The new fragrance by Miu Miu, defined by you. So I admit I have a whole bunch of questions. I am so enjoying just sitting here listening to the two of you talk to one another. I'm like, okay, I can ask questions. If you need me to ask questions, I can ask questions.
- [27:14]
Dr. Constance Bailey
But just if you people can talk, listen, ask your questions. Because we'll be randomly talking about all kind of stuff.
- [27:22]
Kiese Laymon
And you know who I just talked to speaking on that? Constance, My boy Akili. I think that he goes by, you know, Akili.
- [27:29]
Dr. Constance Bailey
Well, only because of conversations. Listen, I was like, this book is bringing people together. He's home team. I was like, what? So I had to, hey, you gotta come. When he messaged me, he was like, I couldn't believe. He's like, I couldn't put two and two together. I would see your name. I didn't realize you were from Nashville. I was like, that's cause I'm old. That's why you didn't talk. So I was like, you should come through for cla. We're gonna be in Jackson. Like, I was really, really excited. So he said, yeah, he's gonna.
- [27:55]
Kiese Laymon
We had a long conversation. So Akili is. He also goes by Black Man Reading. That's his, like, bookstagram thing. And. And I met Akili years ago. Cause he was one of these cats who, like, knew my stuff better than I did. But the other day, we were having this conversation, and I was like, I've been meaning to ask you, do you know Constance? And he was like, bro, that's what I'm saying. Cause he was trying to make the point that if you and him were both really great at basketball, people would have made sure that you and him knew each other. If you were good in football or if you were good in slanging, you know, like, y' all would have known each other. But he was like, the fact that you got these two black people from Natchez who have given their life to, like, words and art and books, it's like, wow, that we took so long for us to connect. So, yeah, he was real hype about that.
- [28:44]
Dr. Constance Bailey
Yeah. I mean, I think it's. I don't know. You may not remember this. It was a long time ago. I think I had pitched it to you or maybe even Kirsten. But see, Kirsten and I, Kirsten West Savalli, we graduated together. But, you know, her expertise is more, you know, journalistic. So the writing is a little bit different, but still great Mississippi mind, you know? And I was like, we should have, like, a. What was it like? Young, gifted, and black Mississippi something. I. It was like. It was hella long ago. It was back in the Skype days. And so I didn't have a budget for anything, because I never do. But I still have these grandiose plans, and it'll still happen one of these days.
- [29:20]
Kiese Laymon
We should do it specifically for that, because he. You. He said you lived on, like, a street or a street.
- [29:27]
Dr. Constance Bailey
Like, we lived in, like, the same neck of woods. I was like, yeah. My flesh go through there.
- [29:33]
Kiese Laymon
Yeah.
- [29:33]
Dr. Constance Bailey
Yeah.
- [29:34]
Kiese Laymon
I love it. I love that. That makes me so happy.
- [29:37]
Sullivan Sommer
I feel like something has just been agreed upon here. That when it materializes, I want you both to remember that you were here with me when this. When this idea. When this idea came. Came along.
- [29:53]
Kiese Laymon
Well, now. Where are you? Where are you?
- [29:55]
Sullivan Sommer
I'm in New York.
- [29:56]
Dr. Constance Bailey
Oh, what part?
- [29:58]
Sullivan Sommer
Manhattan. Upper west side.
- [29:59]
Dr. Constance Bailey
Okay.
- [30:00]
Sullivan Sommer
Okay. Yeah, yeah. It's not as much. Not as much fun when we.
- [30:04]
Kiese Laymon
It's fun. It's fun.
- [30:06]
Sullivan Sommer
I am. We are all the same age, though. I'll say that. The three of us are all the rear. The same. We're the same age, so we've got that.
- [30:15]
Kiese Laymon
You grew up in New York?
- [30:17]
Sullivan Sommer
No, I grew up. Well, I spent the first 18 years in New Hampshire.
- [30:20]
Dr. Constance Bailey
Oh, wow.
- [30:21]
Sullivan Sommer
But I've been gone. I left at 18 and never went back. I left. I lived up and down the East Coast. I lived in Atlanta, was as far south as I lived. I was in Atlanta for seven years and then was in the Pacific Northwest, and then London and then back to New York. Yeah. Yeah. So the collection Conversations, something that is very much a thread through the book because it's. I know a thread with Kiese as well, is revision. And again, it comes up in multiple of the conversations in the collection. And I'm curious, really, it's. For both of you. Is this book a kind of revision in and of itself, the collection?
- [31:07]
Dr. Constance Bailey
That's a good question and a hard question. Well, so I don't know that this will answer your question. And Kiese may think about this differently. I mean, writing is recursive, and I. So I think in terms of just. And it's still. I'm still not happy with the introduction. Right. You know what I mean? But it was like, okay, I have to let this go. Like, it has to be, because I wanted it to be just so. And that's when grad school, when I was trying to finish my PhD, you know, my advisor said, well, you're gonna have to pray to the Orishas or something because you. Because, you know, it's just like, perfect is the enemy of this. Like, you're not gonna ever finish, you know, and so I agonize about stuff like that. So I think in that way, that was, you know, something. I was like, oh, okay. You know, revision. Like, okay, I see this admits maybe this is why PSA's works, you know, and one of the reasons his works resonate so much with me. But I also think, just in terms of, you know, Genre. Right. Because some of the interviews initially were, you know, recorded interviews. And I felt very much that I wanted people to be able to cite them. And so, again, having to transcribe them. So I think the fact that they are in a different format, you know, sort of practically, it's. It's a revision in that way. So, yeah, I mean, yeah, for me, I think revision is kind of working on a couple levels, you know, some being sort of the nuts and bolts. Like, let me change this, you know, to an actual transcribed interview to facilitate people being able to read it. And then just for my own process, like, hey, you know, it's not going to ever be the perfect introduction, but as long as it does key essay and the work justice, you can just leave it alone. Like, stop.
- [32:47]
Kiese Laymon
Stop.
- [32:47]
Dr. Constance Bailey
You know, stop fooling with it.
- [32:48]
Kiese Laymon
So, yeah, I love that answer. You know, for me, I think, like, three quarters of that book were like a vision because we didn't talk about this. But I don't. I don't read the interviews, like, after I've done interviews, I don't read. I'm not. So, like, 70, 75% of that book I haven't read. Like, I. I was. I literally, like, family got to some points, and I was just like, I know I didn't. When did. You know? When did I talk to that. I know I didn't talk to that person. I did not say that. But I trust you, so I know I had to set it. But it came at the right time for me. 1. You know. Cause when you were trying to make this. You know, my granny was dying and I was. You probably can tell because, you know, you got that sight beyond sight. But I'm still, like. I'm just. I was all over the place with my head and my heart and just not in a good place. And so to. To actually sit in the book, as I have, like, the last, like, two weeks while I'm finishing up. Good God. Which is like, the last book I'm gonna write about my grandmama at all. It just. It was so. So in that way, I can't say it was a revision, but it helped me revise the kind of writer I have told somebody on earth I was. And I don't know about y', all, but when I'm in the middle of a book, I can't see myself as a writer. I'm just trying to fucking find them, find a way out. You know what I'm saying? Like, I'm trying to. I don't know. And so, like, just Reading it while trying to make just kind of gave me a little, like, confidence to do this thing I'm trying to do well. So in that way, it revives my thought of myself as a writer. But a lot of that shit was, like, new, because I. I don't remember saying it, and I definitely had never read it.
- [34:33]
Dr. Constance Bailey
Yeah, I mean, I think it's interesting, too. One of the things that happened with conversations, and even Addie will say to me, what? Sometimes we'll swap fiction, and I haven't. And when her book tour stuff slows down, she'll fuss at me because I haven't been writing. She's like. And I'm just like, but I don't know where that story's going. And she's like, but you don't have to. You just have. But I think I'm a control freak. I think that's something I've accepted about myself and I don't know about embracing it, but. But, you know, with conversations, it was interesting because I kind of had to just, you know, it was like there were interviews that I wanted that I didn't like. I emailed two or three times or tried to call voicemail, and I couldn't, you know. And without, you know, people granting you their permission, it just can't happen, you know? And I was like, you know, I'mma just have to. It's going to be what it's going to be, and I'm going to be thankful for what it is, and I'm going to just have to be done, you know? And so in that way, you know, kind of accepting, like, accepting the work on its own terms was something that. Like, this process, really. Yeah. I mean, it helped me understand that you can't control everything. Like. And so, yeah, I think I'm better for that.
- [35:39]
Kiese Laymon
But that intro, though, you in complete control of that. Like, I mean, I read that, man, like, four times before I read any, you know, before I kept going because it. Not because it was about me, because the cars. He goes about me, but the writing was just like, oh. You know, and again, I was just like, fuck, that's me. Damn. You know, I gotta. You know, I gotta. I gotta pick it up a little bit to be who Casas thinks I.
- [36:03]
Dr. Constance Bailey
Am, you know, but it's not just me. Like, there. There are. As I said, there are Kiese layman scholars. Like, you know, I was. I was at a melon fellowship, and I linked up with Aciesa Layman Scott. I was like, you know. You know, like, so, yes, I Was.
- [36:18]
Sullivan Sommer
Able to get quotes.
- [36:19]
Dr. Constance Bailey
You know, it's like, hey, well, let me hit up these people, though. They are whole. You know, Black abundance is a. Is a. Is becoming a. Like a critical framework. It's a thing now. Right. So, yeah, sometimes we. We gotta. Yeah.
- [36:33]
Kiese Laymon
Yeah. I'm thankful. I'm so thankful.
- [36:35]
Dr. Constance Bailey
Gotta put on your big boy pants.
- [36:37]
Kiese Laymon
Yeah. Yeah.
- [36:39]
Sullivan Sommer
I wanna. Let's stick with the introduction though, for a second. I. So I interviewed recently. Evie Shockley did the. Yeah. Yes. Just edited a new edition of Harriet Jacobs Incidents in the Life of a Slave Girl. And so she. And she did an introduction on it. And I. I asked her a question. I want to ask you the same question, Constance, and then ask you this question as well, which is I is. Is how do you think about the introduction as a container, as its own piece of writing or format of writing as part of this larger collection that isn't your words in the remainder of the collection?
- [37:22]
Dr. Constance Bailey
Yeah. Well, that's interesting. It. So this is one of the things. It's probably like a thing that. To love and also probably to hate. Right. In terms of the introduction because, you know, I have all these. Again, as I said, it's one of my favorite series. So I have like so many conversations. So I was like going through, reading all of these, you know, and I was like, some of these are three pages, some of them are 15. Like, what is it? So it's kind of nebulous, right? It's not. It's at least for that series. And so the way I think about. Because we. We just got through. I'm co editor of a book on gas station food in the south that comes out in the spring. And so that. That critical, like the work that critical edited collections, like those introductions have to do something a little bit different. Right. They're trying to forecast all of the. The chapters for readers, but they're also trying to provide this cultural milieu. Like gas station foods in the south is a thing. It's not just a meme. So it's having to do different work. And so a part of it was like, okay, understanding what work does this intro need to do? 1. How could I kind of honor Kiese work and legacy, but also how can I stay true to, you know, this. This point that you. That you made Sullivan back I reck of Mississippi. Like, how can I. How can I do all of those things at once? And so was finding a balance. And also, you know, like, because I thought like, acknowledgments would be a separate, you know, thing because oftentimes it is in a different. In a different type of text. And. But when I looked at the last few of the most recent conversations, I was like, oh, they just kind of subsumed this under, you know, it's like, okay, you know, all right, this is a little bit different, but I can do this, right? This is a thing that I can do. You know, once you kind of understand the conventions of the genre, then it's sort of plug and play. So it's just like, I do want to tease a little bit of the interviews that are in here, but I don't want to give too much detail. I do want to talk a little bit about what key essays were. It's. I think I don't necessarily know that this is true because I have certainly have not read all of them, but I do have some of my favorites, you know, the Morrison, Nalo Hop, like, just some of my favorite would. It feels a little different because I do have a little bit of a, you know, as I said, Kiesa is like a play cousin, right? And so having. Having that level of access I don't take for granted, you know, So I really wanted to sort of honor his spirit in a way that sometimes I feel like some of the introductions can be a little stilted, right? Because they're just really talking about that person's laurels and their, their credentials, which are excellent for everybody featured in the, in the series, right? And so it's like, how can I make this a little bit different? And I think that was the thing, the young, the young scholar that Kiesa just mentioned, right? His like super dope bookstagram account, you know, but the reason he came to know, like before he even read or figured saw Natchez, I said something about like the kudzu covered land, right? That's what land was. Where else is kudu? It's like, wait, this person is from now. So it was like, how can I also put myself. So it was a little bit of me trying to insert myself into it as well in a way that I think sometimes they can be a little bit more impersonal. But that's just, you know, that's the sort of relation. The Mississippi is the thing that is connecting, you know, is how I came to Kiesa's work, right? Because of. Of. Of my love, you know? Well, probably love, hate relationship with the state. Right. But yeah.
- [40:50]
Kiese Laymon
Can I ask you one more question, Constance? Just so it's sort of like a follow up, but in earlier drafts that you sent me was the choke Weight piece at the end.
- [41:00]
Dr. Constance Bailey
It was not. No. So. Well, let me take that back. I had a thought and this is again where like the editor again, I couldn't. I can only control it so much in my mind. I'm like, we're going to do a reverse chronological order and Food for Thought is going to be the first interview because like this is the most recent one. This reflects where KSA is right now. And then we're going to work backwards. And so it was not. And I also think at some point, I think it might have been maybe the very last. Because I wanted to say like this is different. Like this is set apart because this is key essay interviewing someone and I want to show how that's different. I think the pressure might have just. Again, I think the convention with the series is to go chronological order. I was a little bit of back and forth but ultimately they, you know, they be told me but it's like, okay, it's fine.
- [41:52]
Kiese Laymon
I like it. I like it better like how I like. I don't know why some of thought it was the last. Yeah, yeah. And so when. But when I was. When I. Maybe because I was expecting that when I saw where it was, I was like, oh, this works. And. And because other things happen, you know, I mean like if he was still mayor, I think it would be different too. So.
- [42:11]
Dr. Constance Bailey
Yeah.
- [42:11]
Sullivan Sommer
Do you think it. Do you think it tells a different story, chronological versus reverse chronological?
- [42:18]
Kiese Laymon
I do. Just as a reader because. Yeah, because you're not. I mean I'm not reading as much for like consequential. I guess it'd be plot in a fiction but like I'm not reading as much to be like, oh, I wonder how this subject's like mind is changing in every. You know, you don't read it that way. It's just like it's more of like every piece can offer you different kinds of information or different kinds of experiences, you know, I don't know. I think about that a lot with like my art because people, man, I go into all this shit always wanting to break linearity and break it and then my editor is like really loves it. And she loves it partially because people love it, but. And I love to hear. I love the non linearity but I don't. But I think. I don't know that's what I'm saying. Like Constance made it work. A lot of times I want it to work or I can think it works conceptually, but it actually doesn't hit me. You know what I mean? Like so I don't know. That's a really tough question, but I think it does tell a different one. I think ending with a conversation with Chokoe tells a. Com. I mean, I feel like that's a different book, actually, because the second question is, like, does it matter which interview is the last? Like, does the last chapter of something, like, change the whole. I think so. Like, I'm one of those people who believe the first and the ending in the beginning kind of sort of dictate what people think they're reading. And also, that interview with Chokwe is. We were at, you know, it was for Aspen. You know, I mean, it was like, for Aspen. Like, it was very bougie interview. You know what I mean? Like, I know Chokwe, like, really well. We were acting like we didn't hardly know each other in that. You know what I mean? So. But I think it meant so much, like, to my mother, because, you know, that interview meant more than any other to my mom and my father because Chokwe's father was my father's, like, big brother in the Republic of New Africa. Chokwe okayed my father sending the name Kiese from Zaire to my grandmama, then to me. So just seeing our names together in a book meant a lot to them and then actually means a lot more, given what has happened with a lot of this stuff. And, you know.
- [44:32]
Dr. Constance Bailey
Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's. That's wild to me. Yeah. I feel like that could be a whole other podcast I could fam.
- [44:45]
Kiese Laymon
It's a. It's a. It's a. I mean, you know, we all leave Mississippi for different reasons, but look, and I think we're all under surveillance. I mean, I know we are all under different kinds of surveillance, but the surveillance that you're under in Mississippi as like a black person with any kind of power is like, I'll say that from someone who was, you know, from like a 18 to 19 year old. I was under surviving. I mean, I get kicked out because they got me on camera taking and returning a library book. So when I come back to teach, you know, I haven't even talked to you about half the shit that happened to me under surveillance at that place. I mean, you know, I mean, they try, you know, you know, Tay Reeves tried everything he could, but, you know, I pay my taxes, you know what I'm saying? Like, luckily, I do not. I didn't. I do not drink. And at that time, I didn't know how to take gummy. So, like, the things, you know, What I'm saying, I'm not out here trying to the world. So, like, the things they get you on, you weren't gonna get me on, but they were gonna get you on something. That's the fact. You stay there, they gonna get you on something. So it means like whether or not he quote unquote did it or not. I'm just saying the level of like, desire to destroy people who appear to have any sort of power. Black people shouldn't for sure.
- [45:59]
Dr. Constance Bailey
Black people, right? Yeah, yeah. I mean, the level of hypocrisy is astounding. But I think, you know, I mean, that's the thing about Mississippi, right? Is it becomes a microcosm of America in that way. I mean, you have a person who has actively stolen money from taxpayers, you know, who, who. There's not an allegation of like, no, there's receipts and then there nothing. You know, it's like a news story maybe, you know, but. And yeah, so anyway.
- [46:31]
Kiese Laymon
But yeah, you're right, you're right. I mean, and that's what I think where we are at this moment now in the world is like, I can't believe they would try to make an iconic hero out of this racist. I'm like, fam, like, look at your monuments. Wherever you live, wherever you live. They're Charlie Kirk people. They're Charlie Kirks with hats, Confederate hats, ties. Like, that's who gets the monuments. That's who my county's. That's who Jackson's named after. That's who I was born in.
- [46:58]
Dr. Constance Bailey
Jefferson Davis Hospital.
- [46:59]
Kiese Laymon
You know what I'm saying? Like, the idea that, like, this shit is new when we lived in land named for that kind of person is. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [47:10]
Dr. Constance Bailey
We don't get us on our Mississippi soapbox, huh? I'm gonna say, y', all. Mint is still 15amonth for premium wireless. And if you haven't made the switch yet, here are 15 reasons why you should. One, it's $15 a month. Two, seriously, it's $15 a month. Three, no big contracts. Four, I use it. Five, my mom uses it. Are you, Are you playing me off? That's what's happening, right? Okay, give it a try. @mintmobile.com Upfront payment of $45 for three month plan.
- [47:41]
Sullivan Sommer
$15 per month equivalent required. New customer offer, first three months only, then full price plan, options available, taxes and fees, extra.
- [47:45]
Dr. Constance Bailey
Cmn.
- [47:46]
Sullivan Sommer
Again, I'm happy to. I'm, I'm, I'm happy to, to let this go. Oh. But I'm, you know, I'm. I'm reflecting on again, the pieces in the book that, you know, some of them now are, are many years old, but we're in this strange. Or maybe we're always in a strange circular time cycle. Maybe it's not just right now and it only feels right now. But, Constance, you touched on this before, which was the pieces in this collection. Some of them did start out as written pieces, some of them were published in journals and periodicals, but some of them started out as something else. And one of the things that started out as something else was actually a Radiolab podcast. I read briefly from it at the top, and it comes from a broadcast called the Flag and the fury from 2020 that talked about at the time, the fight to change Mississippi's state flag. And Constance, you said something before that I wanted to go back to. Did I understand you correctly that at least some of the interviews, some of the conversations you actually transcribed yourselves?
- [49:06]
Kiese Laymon
I.
- [49:06]
Dr. Constance Bailey
Well, I did, yeah. Before. Now that one, no, Radiolab actually did an excellent job. They actually provided the. The thing that, that I ended up doing and that my grad assistant eventually, once I got one, ended up doing was kind of double checking because every now and then the transcription, you know, sometimes depending on what they're, you know, if the software you're using or if it's old school manual, you know, there'll just be an inaccuracy. And every now and then I'd have to hit Kia, say up like, hey, did you. Do you remember? And of course, like, he's a decade old. He's like, yeah, I think I said xyz. So. So the Radio Lab one especially, it was so lengthy. Thank goodness I did not have to transcribe that. There was a great one. I think it was on like Revision and Love might have been the title of it. It was the one with, I think Jordan Kissner. That one for sure. We had to transcribe. I initially started that I got by like, you know, academic timeline. So it's like I was working on multiple projects concurrently. I'm like, I'm never going to get this book done. Can I get an assistant? And one programs that I affiliate with, they say, yeah, we actually, we have some funding for our grad students. Do you need an assistant? Yes, please sign up. You know, so. So they ended up, you know, finishing the transcription, but. And there were one or two others like that that we had to. But again, there were a few that were already, you know, print, you know, in print form.
- [50:28]
Sullivan Sommer
But yeah, I ask, I want to Come back to the Radiolab one in a second because I think that was particularly interesting. But on the ones I asked that question and I found that interesting because again, as you well know, the minute you're responsible for transcribing something, the minute you're turning something from audio into text, you're actually making really significant decisions about what that person is saying, where you're going to punctuate, where you're going to paragraph break, where you're going to take out an or a like, and where you're going to leave one in that can change really the tone of everything that they're saying. And so I'm curious about how you thought about that as part of this broader collection.
- [51:16]
Dr. Constance Bailey
I will tell you. So I feel two ways. Mostly, though, as a folklorist, I really am very passionate about capturing people's unique language use and patterns. And I like the ums and I want to know what people and how they were thinking because it says, like, oh, this person is like thinking through things. And you know, I can understand, I suppose, from the, the, from a publisher, you know, perspective because a couple of the interviews we did for the Gas Station Food Book, you know, like we were interviewing folks and they were, they were more heavily edited than I, than I care for. I was like, I, I don't, I'm not a fan because, you know, it's not so much, that's not what I said it is. But, you know, removing, you know, certain parts, then the person doesn't get the totality of the conversation. Right. Which is different. Right. When you're so to your point, I mean, you are, you know, especially when something is judiciously edited, you can completely sort of change the tenor and substance of a conversation. So I'm not a fan of things that are heavily edited now. I'm not sure, you know, because again, some of these we first encountered in print form and so I don't know how much editing went into it before, you know, we, we, we got it. You know, I tried to, to not edit as much and I felt very strongly Kiese and I originally were going to do the interview that we were going to do in person. And then I don't know if it was a scheduling thing or illness thing, I can't remember Kiese. But we ended up, you know, primarily doing email exchange. So it didn't play out the way that I, that I thought it would because I was very much going to, you know, fight, you know, with the press, like, hey, it needs to stay in the vernacular, like it needs to be what we said. Like, what we said it. But because we were kind of typing, it was like, you know, we were. I think you lean more into standard American English when you're typing anyway, just because sometimes I literally. I was trying to crowdsource. How do you spell. No joke. I don't know if you saw this post. I was trying to say Mississippi. We didn't need we in here. And I was like, how do you spell here? Like, I. Because I. Phonetically. Like, it sounds one way, but I don't know how you spell that on the page. And I had. You know, people like, oh, no, you need to. You see, you got to combine. So you need to do C, H, E, A. And then someone's like, no, you need to do H, E, A, Love, Mary. It was insane. But I just felt strongly like I wanted it to sound like. Like it would sound if you were talking to me and Kiese, so. And again, you know, I don't have the. I didn't have the final sense on everything.
- [54:01]
Kiese Laymon
But you know what? You know what's funny about that? The first time I met Addie Kitchens, Constance is like, homie. And I think one of the illest writers on Earth definitely was one of the greatest debut novels in Dominion that I read in my life. But we met up in Memphis at this. Some sort of literary event, and it was. It was. I remember Zandria was there. Jamie Halle was there. Addie was there. Maurice, Ruffin and fam. We spent an hour. We went off script, spent an hour talking about whether if we were gonna say, I'm gone. I'm going home. I'm gone home. Or where you going? Like, the Memphis people were like, it's G, O, N, E. Mississippi people were like, it's G, O, N. Yeah, like, gone. Like, gone. You know, like, gone and do that. They're like, no, like, gone and do that. And then we were like, yeah, but that's different than, like, what you gonna do, you know? But they were like, well, how was it different? You know what I mean? Like, none of us were like, it had any sort of.
- [55:04]
Dr. Constance Bailey
No, that's hilarious. But see, that was easy to me because it's like, yeah, you spell that G O, N. That's how you spell.
- [55:11]
Kiese Laymon
But they were like, no G, O, N, E. And they were. And we were home. They were home. So I think they won the argument. But that speaks again to some of what you're saying about Sullivan, about how these choices sort of dictate a lot about the sound of the piece.
- [55:27]
Dr. Constance Bailey
Yeah, yeah. No, Addie and I talk a lot about that. Even, like, intonation when thinking about the audiobook. I think she probably also was happy. I hope she was happy with the aesthetic choices that they made. But I know init, we were saying, like, no, that's not how a person from Mississippi, like an old black lady from Mississippi, you know, we have lots of conversations.
- [55:48]
Kiese Laymon
I wish I would have talked to Addie, because the first time they. They did a. Man, listen. First time they did an audio, you just so happy you have an audiobook. You don't think you can say anything, and then you get the shit back. And all the black women sound like Martin Luther King Jr. And shit. You know, like, I told you to bring back my clothes. Oh. Like, mother, are you fucking kidding me, dog? Like, when I talk to you about the pain of that shit. But, like, it was so hard to even get a book, so you just like, let me not say nothing. Then people are going to be like, did you. And then, you know, it became an embarrassment. People were like, man, I like the book. But sometimes people like, did you. Was that you? Because people don't. You know. People don't know. And is that you on audio? No, no, no, no. And even with that one, they mispronounce, like, oh, my God, yo. Like, the Equimani. The Equimina epigraph. And they were like, by Andre 3000 equimony. And I was, how y' all doing this? But. But it just speaks to like. Yeah, like, you were. I was afraid to say, I want my audiobook done. Done. Well, because I thought they. Because I thought they would yank it if I said it. But, you know, that's a different conversation.
- [57:00]
Dr. Constance Bailey
Yeah, no, I. But that's a real. Yeah, that's a real thing. But I also think, like, you know, that could affect your sales. It's like, if you don't. It doesn't sound like if I listen to an audiobook that's supposed to be my, like, a Southern wrecker, and it don't sound like I'm gonna be like, ah, you know?
- [57:20]
Kiese Laymon
Yeah. And then not enough actors. So actually, even the ones who do, quote, unquote, get it right, they sent like. Like, you'll have the same actor in, like, 10 different books out in the same quarter. Or actually, we don't get 10 different hour books out in the same quarter, but you have 10 different black books in the same year, sort of narrated the same. So does it matter if they're good or not? You know?
- [57:41]
Dr. Constance Bailey
Yeah, no, I. I Absolutely feel that pain. I mean, you know. Yeah, I'm gonna say it's a good problem to have. If I, If I ever get back to writing creatively, I can argue with somebody about. No, I don't want that.
- [57:58]
Kiese Laymon
It was right.
- [57:59]
Sullivan Sommer
There's a. One of the conversations that's in the book is from the rumpus and it's from 2018. And in that one, Kiese says, I think the line between an invented history and real history is so thin, in some ways, all writing is invented. Talk about the history of Kiese that gets invented with a collection like the this.
- [58:22]
Dr. Constance Bailey
Wait, wait, who is that question for?
- [58:24]
Sullivan Sommer
Well, either.
- [58:25]
Dr. Constance Bailey
Both. Yeah, I mean, that's a girl. So, I mean, here's the thing. I think that, I mean, I think Kiesa in some ways a little bit spoke to this already in the sense that, you know, we. I'm very much a fan of words, of affirmation. You know, sometimes I could be a little woo, woo. I don't try to go too far with that. But, you know, it's like, like I'm going to proclaim like that, you know, Kiese is the, you know. You know what? You know, whatever. And, and it's not a, you know, it's not disingenuous. It's not like, oh, I'm trying to gas him up. Like, I, you know, like he has his credentials speak for, for the, you know, for themselves. So, I mean, I, I do think that it's maybe, maybe the thing. And, and I know that KSA is a huge fan of Jasmine. I'm a huge fan of Jasmine, obviously. Like, when I finally met her, I sent KSA features. Like, I finally met just in the world right now, you know, but, but then it's like, you know, sometimes when, you know, the literary world gets hold of a, A, A person, then, you know, it's like, this is the only sort of voice that sort of dominates that. And I, I just really wanted to say, like, hey, you know, here is this, you know, again, this literary giant, this, you know, Ms. writer, you know, and it's fine, you know, that Kiese is also here. So I think maybe, maybe that was the thing because Jasmine's voice is very different from Kiese's voice, which is very different from Addie's voice, you know, like, and they're all, you know, important in different ways. Right. And so I think I just wanted to. Maybe I don't even want to say insert because there are a lot of people, you know, I think, you know, the thing that Kiesa I think, does so well is his social media. Right. I mean, they're probably. There might be people who. Who haven't even read your work. For real. For real. Like the B between basketball and dummies and, you know, politics, you know, it just be random things my friends and.
- [60:31]
Sullivan Sommer
I do talk about. You saw. I can't say. Posted.
- [60:35]
Dr. Constance Bailey
Yes, I give you get taste. You know, it's kids. All right.
- [60:39]
Kiese Laymon
You know, neighbor.
- [60:43]
Dr. Constance Bailey
So. So, yeah, I mean, I feel like I'm rambling. I don't know that I'm answering the question at all, but I think I just wanted to say, like, here's this other literary titan that we should really be paying attention to, because I think that especially with Jasmine winning the National Book Award twice, I think by virtue of some accolades, people automatically start to put you in certain conversations. And so where. Oh, boy. I think it was with Skip Gates or somebody had to like, wannabe slick dis or something. Like something that was real crazy kind of talking out the side of his. Like, I don't want to entertain that kind of foolishness because I want to say, you know, here is the body of work, and the work, you know, can speak for itself, and here's why this is a great writer, you know, so. Because, you know, like something like the MacArthur, for example. Oh, that's not necessarily a literary award, Right. That people, scientists get it and other types of, you know, like, we know, you know, great writers have gotten it, but it's not necessarily a literary award. It's like great thinkers, right, and people who. Who can potentially change the world. Right. But. But I really wanted to, I think, just emphasize, you know, how important of a literary figure Kiese was. So maybe that's my rambling answer. If. If it answers the question. I don't know if it does, but.
- [62:10]
Kiese Laymon
That'S a great answer to me. I mean, I think it's invented. It feels invented because so much of the way I chose to, like, chose and or had to come into this literary world was sort of at odds with what a writer with the capital W was perceived to be. You know, I mean, Jasmine. Jasmine is Jasmine to me. Like, Jesmyn is one of one. Like, I think she's the greatest writer of our generation. I think she's the greatest writer in the world. And it's not hard to look at Jesmyn's work and place it within a literary continuum of something, you know, Faulkner or whomever. And I think Jasmine is not following Faulkner. I think Jasmine is challenging. Jasmine is challenging Faulkner. But I Think the way I came in it, partially because I'm from a different place in Mississippi, too, was like, for me to get in this, I had to sort of kind of say, fuck them, you know, not fuck Jasmine, but I kind of sort of had to say, like, fuck what you all think of as, like, the writers with a capital W. And that comes with a consequence, you know what I'm saying? Like, you know, like, when you. You just constantly. You speaking facts, you know what I mean? Like, heavy, you know? Yeah. Was voted one of the best books of the century by the New York Times and the LA Times and Kirkus and all of that. But when that shit came out, it did not win. It wasn't a. It wasn't a. It wasn't a National Book Award long list, you know what I'm saying? I was. I was. It didn't. It wasn't a Pulitzer long list, you know, like the Kirkus Award. It was a final, like, so. So, like these markers that one usually uses to, like, mark especially, like, black books from the south as being worthy. It didn't win any of that shit. And I never put the suit on or the fucking vest, you know what I'm saying? Like, kept my hat on. I kept my fucking only beard that need to be filled in, you know, so. So, but, but. But the fact that there's a book called Conversations with gives the impression that this is a major writer. I'm not saying that I'm not. I'm not, nor am I saying that I am, but I think that, like, the way that person on the COVID looks, I think it's. It's a large leap for someone to be like, wow, like that, that. That figure in America, like, that. The way that person is drawn. I don't think Americans would think that that person with that look, with that hat, that was worthy of a conversation book. So in that way, it's kind of an. It's kind of an invented past. Do you know, do you notice I'm trying to say, like. Like, it's like it hoists me up to a literariness that maybe folks might not think the work or me deserve, but I'm not sure in our confidence. Do you know what I mean? Like, in my heart, I really. I mean, I know me. I know myself as an artist, so. So I'm like, yeah, that's dope. Like, that's great. I'm so happy Constance did that. But it also makes it. Yeah. Like, it's like winning something really big. And now you have to, like, act like you didn't. So I can't front. Like, I'm not like, somebody major because there's a conversation book about me now. Do you know what I mean? I don't know. I'm saying a lot of shit I probably shouldn't say anyway.
- [65:13]
Dr. Constance Bailey
No, you can't do the fake humility. I mean, not to say, like, for you, it's absolutely genuine. But for some people, it's like this contrived sort of thing. But now it's like a little bit like, all right, now you got a whole conversation, like. Yeah, because, I mean.
- [65:31]
Kiese Laymon
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's all I'll say about that.
- [65:34]
Sullivan Sommer
Constance, who is. Who is this book for?
- [65:38]
Dr. Constance Bailey
You know, that's a great question, and it's one that I thought about. I mean, I think in some ways it's. It's. It's. It's accessible, so it can be for anybody. But what immediately what came to mind was, and I'm not gonna try to even butcher the poem, but I know that Margaret Walker Alexander is a figure because of her connection with Jackson State, who is very near and dear to both me and Kiese. And so I would just say, like, one of her most famous works of poetry is for my people. So whoever that comment resonates with, that could be Mississippians, that could be black Southerners, that could be people who love literature. I mean, it's like sort of if, you know, you know. So that's what I really want to say. I just want to say, probably in the spirit of the late, great Margaret Walker Alexander, the book is for my people.
- [66:34]
Sullivan Sommer
The book is Conversations with Kiese Lehman, edited by Dr. Constance Bailey. You can find constance@constancebailey.com or on Instagram at Constance the Academic. And I'm your host, Sullivan Sommer. You can find me online@sullivansummer.com on Instagram at the Sullivans, and on substack at Sullivan Sommer. Thank you for listening to the new books.