Priyanka Kumar (2:09)

Thank you, Christina. It's a pleasure to be here.

Dr. Christina Gessler (2:12)

I am so glad that you're back and that we get to learn more from you. Before we do that, will you please tell us about yourself?

Priyanka Kumar (2:19)

Sure. I am the author of three books, Take Wing and Fly Here, which is a literary novel set in the world of competitive birding. And that was followed by Conversations with Birds, which is a nonfiction book about my journey in the land of birds. And then most recently, of course, I wrote the Light Between Apple Trees, and we've already spoken about that book, so. And it's about how feral apple trees can open a doorway to the wild. So I'm a lifelong naturalist. I grew up in the foothills of the Himalayas and intuited a way of being in nature that I carry with me to this day. And I am so grateful for that.

Dr. Christina Gessler (3:17)

And the book is Conversations with Birds. And you're a naturalist, and the book takes us through a series of essays and where you make connections with birds and with the ecosystems where they inhabit. But you're not a birder, the way some of us think of where people have intensive lists and they make journeys specifically to check something off their list. Right.

Priyanka Kumar (3:44)

And I should say that I've experienced that sort of birding, and I. I found it to be unsatisfying. And I understand that for some people, that's a way to get motivated to get out there and look at birds and have a checklist and so on and so forth. The way I look at this is entirely different. And like I said, I grew up for the first 10 years or so of my life in the foothills of the Himalayas. And fortunately, for the most part, I was free enough to wander in the natural world. And I was in nature for long periods of time as a child. And I developed not just a level of comfort in that environment, but also a feeling that I belong in nature and I'm part of nature, and this is where I feel like myself. And. And none of that comes without experiencing, I think, at first, this feeling of silence when you're walking long enough on a trail and everything just seems to slow down, and your mind grows progressively more silent. And finally, you can tune into the rhythms of nature. You can tune into the songs of birds, and. And if there's a snake rustling through the autumn leaves on the ground, you can hear that. And it's. It's just beautiful, joyous, and it's. It's. It's a way to live your life. And so that's the kind of experience that I always seek to this day when I'm in the natural world. I want to sink into time. I see that experience of being in nature and belonging to nature as a counterpoint to the modern life we live, where our time is fragmented by one too many devices. And so the Last thing I want to do is to go into a forest and kind of have either a physical or mental list and just be wanting to acquire a bird for my list. And for me personally, it's not just that that's not how I want to be. I don't want to have that kind of modern, acquisitive mindset. But I also, I think that kind of interferes with the music of being in nature. And that's really what I'm tuning into. I don't want to get into a place, see a bird, and then run off to see another one. I want to get to know those birds. You know, if it's a hairy woodpecker that I'm observing on a trail that I love to go to every month, I want to sense how the rhythm of that woodpecker's life is changing. You know, when that bird is coming to the forest and, you know, whether. When it. When it's the breeding season. And so more interested in observing birds and their behavior and learning about them and learning from them. And so I think it's just a different mindset and so rewarding that I'm very grateful that I had the capacity or the interest to develop it as a child and that I've held onto that sins.

Dr. Christina Gessler (7:51)

And you have many vivid scenes in the book where you take us back to moments in your childhood where you're going through this thicket of bamboo to get to a friend's house to work on a school project. And then you go back when you're rushing for the school bus, and yet you contrast that type of rushing with what you experienced when you lived in Los Angeles, that even when you were hurrying there, it was a different environment, it was a different feeling. And you could take moments to really feel the vividness of the colors of nature, the textures to feel like you belong there. And when you contrast it with your time in la, we see how you feel like you don't belong there. And yet, surprisingly, you start finding birds which most of us don't think of as living in the greater LA area, and yet they do. And those give you moments of coming back to yourself.

Priyanka Kumar (8:47)

Yeah. And it's interesting, Christina, I. I was rereading a few parts of the book in the, late, in the. In the days leading up to this interview, and I actually haven't looked at it in some time. And reading that read, reading those passages about my time in la, I was surprised by how honest I was in the book. I was like, wow, I really wrote all that stuff. Yeah. I think it comes back again to this capacity to sink into time. And it's such an important thing to learn. And I was fortunate that I intuitively learned it as a child. But I think that any of us can learn it at any point in our lives, and it's very rewarding in every way. So, yeah, I was in Los Angeles, young filmmaker. And of course, outwardly, I was, you know, in line with and habituated to a modern life. And yet I felt like my soul was not. My soul hadn't. Didn't want to catch up with the jumpiness, this kind of hectic nature, but, you know, hectic to no purpose, nature of modern life. And I noticed that we were all going about our lives so fast that we rarely took moments to sink into each other's experiences, to really, you know, talk about the things that mattered. I noticed that as a graduate student in film school, and I noticed that after I graduated. And it troubled me. And I think I wanted to get back to as much as I was part of this life, that I was living this kind of, you know, modern, busy life. But there was a part of me that more soulful part of me that yearned to circle back to a different way of being, to the sense of extended, almost infinite time that had experienced as a child. And so I started wandering to the edges of. I was living in Pasadena at the time, and we, of course, had the San Gabriel Mountains not too far away. So that was one of the first things I did, is to wander into the San Gabriel Mountains sometimes at night to look for owls. And pretty soon I was going to other state parks in Malibu and elsewhere, and was really surprised to find all these riches, these birds at the edges of this materialistic city. And I found that I was experiencing a sense of kinship with these birds and that these birds were calling me back into the natural world. And despite all the. All the rational reasons I may have had to not listen to that call, the call was very strong and, and I, I, I gave into it. And I've never regretted that.

Dr. Christina Gessler (12:46)

In the preface to the book, you say, birds are my almanac. They tune me into the seasons. And a few pages later you say, sometimes it just takes the right bird to awaken us. And we see that in, in each of the essays. Moments where you're in nature, where you see a bird or you're. You've gone to a particular habitat because you would like to see the bird, but also to really experience how it lives in its habitat and how its habitat is being protected or Threatened. And those call forth parallel moments in your human life. One example is in. In chapter two, which is called a Zen monkey at work. It's your life right after grad school and you've moved to Santa Cruz. And for many people, there's a pocket of time right after grad school where we feel kind of flatter than we've ever felt in our lives. And I kind of felt a little bit of that coming through in that chapter. You're talking about loneliness after graduation, about moving. And it's around Thanksgiving time, which is a painful time for many, many people. And for you it's bringing up feelings of family loss. You tell us about losing your brother and your father in the space of 17 months. And so you and your husband decide that you're going to go for this walk in nature. And we see you along the shoreline there near the water's edge, and you're looking at wood duck, and you're remarking on how these water birds are incredibly social and that they seem to like glory in their chatter and in their time together. And it was a huge contrast for you for how you were feeling in that moment, right?

Priyanka Kumar (14:32)

And it turns out that one of the things about Santa Cruz is that it's simply gorgeous. And so I think that it was the right setting, in any case, for my solitude. And I started to take these walks. We were fortunate enough to. We lived in this little apartment complex, but it backed on to the Neary lagoon. And I was teaching at the time, UC Santa Cruz. I was a visiting professor there. And I began after my morning writing was done, I would. I would, as I thought to myself, I would circumambulate the lagoon and just notice all the regulars, the coots, and then make my way toward the end to the wood ducks and see how they used the weeping willow as habitat. They're these beautiful birds, but also very shy. And it felt like they used the curtains, so to speak, of the weeping willows as a veil behind which they could hide from visitors. So he spent a good deal of time. And part of the thing about being out in nature and being a naturalist is, is you're really spending time in nature every single day. So it's not something that you come back to over the weekend, but it just becomes a part of your daily practice. And it was essential for me to go to the lagoon every day. And it was a couple miles to the beach, and I often walked over there to consider the pelicans. And yes, on Thanksgiving, we'd take a longer hike and you know, observe the snowy plovers, who are endangered, sadly, because they use, you know, the coloration is kind of almost blends into the sand and they just scallop a little shallow space in the sand and that's where their nest is and that's where they breed. And unfortunately, humans who use the beach aren't always sensitive to these little birds and end up disrupting their habitat in so many different ways. And so I would watch the snowy plovers, but also the sanderlings, which is what I think those are the birds that you were referring to, Christina. The, the lovely, lovely Sandra Langs, who kind of race almost seem to be playing and swinging with the tides and they run along like giddy children. And I would experience this wonderful sense of play they had and this community that they seem to belong to. And that contrasted with the isolation that I was experiencing. And I, I think it's, it's insightful of you to say that we all experience this to some degree after grad school. There's almost in a sense, an inevitable letdown, right? And you're, you're actually, perhaps for the first time in your life, you're in the throes of life. You're no longer a student, you're living and there can be a letdown. But I feel that being with the birds, bringing them into my daily life was the beginning of opening my, my eyes to a different way of life, to a way of life that would be more sustaining, that would be more healing, and importantly, that would make me feel more alive.

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Dr. Christina Gessler (20:23)

And you say in that chapter, the world peopled with humans felt inadequate. I saw it instinctively, the vast spaciousness of the natural world. In the next chapter, it's called the Rasa of bulbous. Is that how you say those words?

Priyanka Kumar (20:38)

Bulbos, Bubbles.

Dr. Christina Gessler (20:41)

And that is a chapter where it seems to start to turn for you, where life seems to feel more vivacious and the sounds and the colors are more familiar and they're awakening something in you. Can you define for us what rasa is?

Priyanka Kumar (21:00)

So rasa is a Sanskrit word, and it's also one of those complex words that contains within it a philosophy, a way of being. So it means, literally and metaphorically, juice. And it was first used in the Natya Shastra, an ancient Indian text that has to do with theater and dance and how an artist, before a performance or when they're preparing a piece, has to decide what mood they are going to internalize, and then, you know, what mood they're going to portray, whether it's music or dance or theater. And these moods can vary all the way from sensuous to anger. And so rasa is a very technical term. And I was making a film at the time about a master Indian filmmaker, Satyajit Ray, who won the lifetime achievement Oscar, and Ravi Shankar, the maestro had composed the music for Ray's films. And I discovered through a mutual friend that he lived in Encinitas, Southern California, at the time. So I took my crew with me to his house and interviewed him. And that was the very first time he'd been interviewed about the process of composing music for Ray's films. But it so happened that I felt that Shankar, who had passingly written about rasa before, exemplified, during the course of my time at his house, what it is to have inner rasa. I mean, he was. He had this. And at the time, he was roughly 80 years old, but he was bubbling with this rasa, this inner juice, and his eyes gleamed like jewels. And this got me more interested in the concept of rasa because I had been through a spell of experiencing life without rasa, having grown up in a culture that's saturated with rasa. And so I was circling back to this concept and, you know, read what Shankar had written about it and kind of placed that against my own experience. But it's. It's. It's really the juice that, that, that bubbles up from deep within. But. But it, it needs a safe space. It needs the cauldron of community. And already at the time, I was noticing how communities fraying in so many, living in a more materialistic culture. All of us feel like in different ways, we're pushed to a corner. We're. In unspoken ways, we're always encouraged to look out for ourselves, to always looking at, you know, to always be looking out for, you know, opportunities for ourselves. And it all become so competitive. I mean, the whole education system can be such, you know, a competitive race. And all of that does not foster community. So I was really interested in ways of thinking that foster community and foster rasa. And I felt that I rediscovered rasa, ironically, in just the next door neighborhood of Pasadena, which is Huntington. And I found these lovely birds, bulbuls, which are really native to India and thereabouts, but had been brought to America for an aviary, I believe, in Florida, and, and had since escaped. And there was a small group that had, that seemed to have set up a very comfortable habitat for themselves in, in and around the Huntington Gardens in San Marino. And so I discovered these birds, which I had been smitten with as a teenager in India. And I felt that they brought back into my heart and soul the strain of rasa that I had been thirsty for for so long. And so it's interesting, once again, these birds were my teachers and they showed me a way out of the materialistic, competitive culture that I was otherwise trapped in.

Dr. Christina Gessler (26:42)

And there are several points in this section of the book where you encounter a flock of birds in the wild that you wouldn't have expected. But they do seem to be different kinds of birds that were set free or escaped, and they created a flock. You encounter one such, I think, on a hike in Malibu and this one in San Marino. And you say on page 44, strangely, the bulbuls reconnect me to a strain of life that I had been thirsting for. And we really see that happening there. And it contrasts with an experience that you had when you were hoping to do research about the birds at the Huntington Library. Would you share a little bit about that experience?

Priyanka Kumar (27:27)

Sure. The Bulbuls, in a way, led me to the Huntington because I was seeing them on my walks on the way to the Huntington. And eventually I made my way there. And it's this very tony space, I would say, beautiful botanical gardens. And they had an exhibit at one point of the works of Audubon. And at the same time I had been reading Shelley's Poetry and had just read his biography. And I wanted to know more about. I wanted to research his connection to nature when. Especially when he had lived in the Italian countryside. And so once I got to Huntington, I saw this exhibit of Audubon's work, his paintings, and it was quite popular, the show. And so I felt that I was seeing it with throngs of people, but I really wanted to study it in a more quiet way now that I was getting deeper into my exploration of birds and was beginning to research them as a naturalist. So I wanted to spend more time with Audubon's work. And at the same time, I also learned that the Huntington Collections not only had Audubon's work, but they also had some of Shelley's manuscripts and other material connected to his life. And so I thought it would be a good idea to get a library card to the Huntington Collections library and be able to study and do further research there on both these interesting figures. And so I didn't, you know, I really didn't think too much of this, but at this point, I had my master's degree, which is a terminal degree in my field, and I had taught at the University of Southern California and also at UC Santa Cruz. So I just applied for a card, which presumably everyone can do, as long as, you know, you have some interest. But what surprised me is that several weeks went by and I didn't hear back. And so eventually I just called them, and the head librarian picked up, and I told her about my application. And, you know, there was a pause, and, I mean, the scene is described in the book, and so I'm not reading from that. But, you know, she told me that my application had been rejected, and it was very puzzled. And, you know, I asked her why. It seemed like she was ready to hang up right after that, and I barely, you know, I kind of froze. But I just very quietly asked her why. And, you know, and again, I'm paraphrasing because it's not going to be the exact words from the book, but she said something like, you don't fit our mold. And it just felt like she'd said out loud something that had gone unspoken for very long, you know, during my time at university and Sense. And. And so, you know, that was the end of the conversation. But needless to say, it was a. It was a painful experience. I don't think I ever had such a short conversation that was quite so piercing. But I think, yeah. And as she had explained, the reason I didn't fit the mold was I didn't have. I didn't have a PhD. And I felt a little too discouraged to explain to her that an MFA is a terminal degree in my field. But it really got me thinking about how it seemed that my intellectual curiosity was not. It seems like that wasn't enough to get me into the hallowed library. And, you know, I never meant to write about this experience, and I suppose it was a good thing that I did. It was just something that I never thought I would write about. But it seems like it ended up being a positive thing because after the book came out, to my utter surprise, Pan America was doing, they do this annual event called the World Voices Festival. And a curator for that festival read the book and decided that they wanted me to be a featured speaker for that event. And guess where they hold one of the key sections of that event? Well, at the Huntington. And so they invited me. And once I was there, they passingly mentioned this episode that I had gone through. And I believe that since then they've decided to change the rules so that you don't actually need a PhD to be able to do research at their library. And so it seems that something came out of my speaking up about my own painful experience. And I only bring that up perhaps to encourage listeners to. To do that as well. And that if you experience something that so obviously seems unfair, to find a way to express it, not necessarily for the sake of venting, but in the hopes that one day it might contribute to a more just and equitable world for everybody.

Dr. Christina Gessler (34:24)

In that section of the book, when you're bringing us into that moment. And she says, no, because of. You're not having a PhD. You write in the book any PhD, like with math count. And it was really highlighting what you. What you just shared, that it was an arbitrary rule that didn't have any bearing on people's curiosity and the importance of having access to research materials.

Priyanka Kumar (34:57)

Right. And I think the reason why it's important to, on occasion, talk about episodes such as these is that, look, in reality, we experience a hundred of these while we are students, all of us, for different reasons. I mean, this. It could have to do with race or gender or what have you, but we experience so many of them, and sometimes there's not even words involved. And we internalize so much of this that I think that it has this kind of rejection, has the possibility to mute our intellectual curiosity, to mute our intellectual ambition. And so I think it is important for us to be aware of. I think it's important for students for gatekeepers for professors. It's very important for us to be aware of how and if we create a community environment for each other, a safe space for each other, and, you know, what are the many, many ways in which we might be, you know, dampening the spirit, the intellectual curiosity of those around us who are younger than us, who are less powerful than us? And so it's almost like when I was writing the book, something in Me. I had never meant to write about this episode ever, but something in me demanded that I write it down. And I'm glad now that I listen to that voice, because I would have never imagined in that moment when I was writing the book that if I wrote this down that that one day that might change circumstances for other young people who would be in my position moving forward.

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Dr. Christina Gessler (38:56)

You bring us into a story about a bird, you also bring us into questions about how the land is handled, how the bird's habitat is respected or not. About encroaching on the rights of the bird, about who has the right to care, about whose cares are listened to. This comes out really vividly in chapter 19, the Mountain lion of Birds. You're on a writing fellowship for five weeks at the Leopold Cabin and the chapter just before it Takes us into adventures and misadventures with a bobcat. This chapter, you've. You've gone with Sheila, who works for the Carson National Forest, and she's going to take you to look for nests of the goshawks. And while you're with her, you're in a push and pull of you respect what she does. You're worried about sort of the party lines that she has to adjust to in order to keep her job and get any impact at all. And you're learning from a fellow co worker there whose name you can't say, and Sheila is also a pseudonym, that not only is it very difficult to meaningfully protect the habitat of the goshawks, but that he had death threats when he was trying to help protect a particular kind of owl. And the story of the Huntington and restricted access and what it takes to speak about it so that it will, it will be listened to, how much power it takes to elevate that story and to get you in, in the room. It's paralleled with what's going on with the birds and questions you're asking about who will speak for them.

Priyanka Kumar (40:51)

Thank you, Christina, for seeing that. That's very perceptive.

Dr. Christina Gessler (40:54)

Can you take us into chapter 19 and unpack that for us a bit?

Priyanka Kumar (41:01)

Sure. And as you sensed, it was very hard for me to write that chapter because this person, whom I call Sheila, had taken me to the forest to see the Gosh hawks. And I found myself in this terrible position where I needed to critique the Forest Service, which is the agency that she worked for. And there were many reasons for critiquing the Forest Service, not least of which was that the goshawk, which is this gorgeous huge bird, the mountain line of birds, is a sensitive species, one of four sensitive species in the Carson National Forest and so must be protected. But when I went to the forest with Sheila, I saw very clear signs that the forest was being. The parts of the forest were being all but clear cut for logging, for logging purposes. And there is an economy in that area, Tres Piedras, there's companies there that log. But what was troubling is that these national forests are our public lands. These are lands that were set aside for you and me and our community and kids in the future to use. And there are also lands set aside for wildlife, everyone from, you know, the goshawk to the bobcat and the mountain lion. Now, the Forest Service has stressed from its very inception that it has a multi use philosophy so that it keeps in mind that these forests are places for Recreation and wildlife. But also there are places that can be monetized. And this is where the problem really comes in. Because you or me sometimes go into the forests and hike there. We're usually not banging at the door of the Forest Service. Asking them to make sure that the trails are in good condition. And that there's good habitat for goshawks and mountain lions. However, logging companies, as I found out, Are indeed banging regularly at the door of the Forest Service. Asking for access to vast tracts of land that they can log. And in this case, what I saw happening at the Carson National Forest. Was that the habitat of a sensitive species such as the goshawk. Was actually being logged. And I delved pretty soon after into some serious research about the bird and what kinds of habitat it prefers. And it is one of those birds that prefers vast tracts of forest land. And, you know, once its habitat is degraded, it becomes very hard for this bird to have the kind of suitable breeding grounds that it needs. And so these were just some of the issues that came up. And I found myself going deeper and deeper. And while I certainly did not want to criticize the person who had taken me into the forest. And subsequently I went on my own several times. I also found that I had, in a sense, a responsibility to the public to tell that story. And especially after I was able to speak with somebody in the Forest Service. Who, it seemed, thoroughly agreed with what I had been thinking about, which is that the habitat of these birds should be a priority, Especially sensitive species that should come before the interests of flogging companies. And so, while it was certainly a very difficult chapter to write, it was also liberating after I wrote it. And certainly it was gratifying once the book came out. And I would be in a reading. And, you know, out of somewhere in the back, there would be, you know, once this elderly woman came up to me. And she said that she had been advocating for years. To try to get the Forest Service to see the kinds of things that I was writing about. To see the forest as an ecosystem and maintain it in that way. And, you know, she all but had tears in her eyes. That I had written this chapter. In a way that brought all of these issues to life. And, you know, could engage a new generation of forest lovers and naturalists. In the fate of birds such as the goshawk. So, again, once again, it was another part of the book that was. It was very challenging to tell that story in a way that I feel that did justice to all parties concerned. But it was certainly gratifying that it resonated with so many people.

Dr. Christina Gessler (47:46)

In that chapter, you go into the research about the stress effects on the birds. Earlier in our conversation, you talked specifically about the needs of the birds, wood ducks, that they need privacy, that they're there with each other, but they're very shy with people. They don't want to meet you up close and personal. It's very stressful for them. You talked about the snowy plovers and the places where they lay their eggs, needs to be protected, and the stress literally on the eggs if humans trespass in an area where they're, they're breeding and laying their eggs. And in this section particularly, you look at the internal stress on the birds, their cortisol levels, what it means to their physical health. Can you talk a little bit about stress on birds? Because I think a lot of people don't consider that factor when they're thinking about habitat.

Priyanka Kumar (48:43)

I think this is philosophically, this is a very fundamental issue to reckon with essentially the way I think, I think that we are just, you know, humans are just one species. We're sharing our planet with wildlife and other animals. You know, we have so many domesticated animals now. So there's the wildlife, there's domesticated animals, and then there's the humans. We're all sharing the planet. So what humans, of course, have been doing, and this has been especially accelerated during the course of the industrial age, is that we are encroaching deeper and deeper into the wild. And the wild is really the home and the habitat of all this wildlife, everyone from the hummingbird to the bear. And we are encroaching ever deeper into this terrain. And so what happens, you know, you have, I think, a very strange urban wildlife interface in which, you know, now we have bobcats and sometimes even mountain lions walking across our backyards, depending on where we live. It certainly happened here in New Mexico. And I think, I think we really have to think about this. We sometimes think about habitat as though, you know, we need habitat for birds, as though we were giving a home to birds. And, you know, the reality is that we've, we've taken so much away. And your observation is correct, that there's, you know, birds undergo varying degrees of stress which impacts them in so many different ways. For instance, when a snow geese get stressed, they start to lose their body fat. And, you know, they can lose a substantial percentage of their body fat to the point where that really can be debilitating. So, and that could be stress from a predator or habitat related stress. So I think We've, we've, we're at a point where I don't think we can take away any more of the wild. I mean, I'm really a believer in. There's a book that the wonderful scientist and naturalist E.O. wilson wrote called Half Earth, in which he advocates for, you know, restoring some of the areas that we've taken and turning them back to the wild. And there's in a sense a movement afoot now to do that, you know, to the extent that it's possible. But I really think that it's important fundamentally from philosophical and from a philosophical perspective, but also from the perspective of, of actually turning this into something that's actionable, of restoring some of the areas that we've taken back to the wild so that the birds can live out their life cycles in ways that their ancestors have done. I mean, what right do we have to, you know, snatch their homes away from them? And how do we prioritize our needs against theirs when their needs are so fundamental? And as human beings, our needs go all the way from being fundamental to. And they spiral toward greed. And so when we get to that point and our greed begins to devour their habitat, I think it really is a moral issue, that's what it comes down to. And I think that philosophically this is something that we need to reckon with and that needs to happen first before we can take more actionable steps.

Dr. Christina Gessler (53:45)

The book has 20 essays. It has beautiful interior art from Audubon. It has a beautiful multi color cover with, with three different birds on brings us into moments in nature of slowing down and really spending time with birds and how that helps you to understand the ecosystem and ourselves. As we go through the book, we see not only your own experiences in real time, but memories that it brings back and experiences you have when you're with your husband and with your children in nature. We're starting to come to the close of our time together and I want to ask you, what do you hope this episode sparks for listeners?

Priyanka Kumar (54:36)

That's such a great question. Well, you know, Christina, we've already spoken about my most recent book, the Light Between Apple Trees, in which I developed the concept of the microwild. So I think I'd like to circle back to the microwild and how I define that is. A microwild is a scrap of nature, a pocket of nature that is large enough to sustain biodiversity all the way from the hummingbird to the black bear. And I would love for listeners to consider whether they have microwaves around them. And because these spaces are, you know, they're somewhere in our vicinity, but they are not necessarily forest land, but they're close enough to the city to provide access to everyone from children all the way to elderly people and to nature. But because of their geographic location, they're also under tremendous development pressures. So I would really hope that this conversation sparked listeners to think about birds in a different way, to think about time spent in nature in a different way, and to consider sinking into time, to consider finding a microwild near you and not only enjoying that microwild, but considering what pressures this microwild is under and how this jewel like scrap of land can be preserved for you and for many, many children who will grow up in your community in the years to come.

Dr. Christina Gessler (56:56)

Thank you so much for being here, Priyanka Kumar, and sharing from your book Conversations with Birds. I'm Christina Gessler. You're listening to the Academic Life. Please join us again.