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- [00:00]
Marshall Poe
Hello, everybody. This is Marshall Po. I'm the founder and editor of the New Books Network. And if you're listening to this, you know that the NBN is the largest academic podcast network in the world. We reach a worldwide audience of 2 million people. You may have a podcast or you may be thinking about starting a podcast. As you probably know, there are challenges basically of two kinds. One is technical. There are things you have to know in order to get your podcast produced and distributed. And the second is, and this is the biggest problem, you need to get an audience. Building an audience in podcasting is the hardest thing to do today. With this in mind, we at the NBM have started a service called NBN Productions. What we do is help you create a podcast, produce your podcast, distribute your podcast, and we host your podcast. Most importantly, what we do is we distribute your podcast to the NBN audience. We've done this many times with many academic podcasts, and we would like to help you. If you would be interested in talking to us about how we can help you with your podcast, please contact us. Just go to the front page of the New Books Network and you will see a link to NBN Productions. Click that, fill out the form, and we can talk about.
- [01:13]
Randy Frazee
Well, and I think this is the journey of salvation and redemption is to redeem our lives, actually how they are, in the way we consume, in the way we work, in the way we live, our relationships. All of it matters. It's not like, here's my spiritual life over here, and then when I eat or when I work, you know, that's just something else. It's like, no food and wine in the Bible are gifts from God.
- [01:41]
Chris Odiniec
Gisla Krenlinger grew up in a winemaking family in Franconia, Germany. Brings the wisdom of generations from her family trade on the vineyard. She's a very accomplished Lutheran theologian, and I think her views on wine will agree with our Catholic views 100%. So I'm so pleased to have her on Almost Good Catholics with a little seat. Good morning and welcome to Almost Good Catholics, a podcast about theology and apologetics about history and culture. I'm your host, Chris Odiniec, and I get to ask interesting people, interesting questions, and together we can get closer to the truth and have a really good time doing it. If you'd like to join the conversation, please email almost good catholicsmail.com today I have the pleasure of speaking with Gisla Kreglinger. She grew up on a winery in Franconia in Germany, where her family has been crafting wine for many generations. She holds two master's degrees in Biblical Studies from Regent College and a PhD in historical theology from the University of St. Andrews. She teaches Christian spirituality in the Academy churches on her annual wine pilgrimages. And every time an opportunity opens up around the dinner table, preferably with a glass of well crafted wine, to inspire her musings on food, faith, and the importance of cultivating joy and conviviality. Kreglinger is the author of Cup Overflowing, Wine's Place in Faith, Feasting and Fellowship, the Spirituality of Wine and the Soul of Wine. In addition, she has recently authored something called Wine in the Word with her colleague Randy Frazee, who is another theologian. And that's what we're going to talk about today. So welcome. Gisela.
- [03:31]
Gisla Kreglinger
Oh, Christoph. It is so wonderful to be with you. Thank you for having me on. Your podcast.
- [03:37]
Chris Odiniec
Is a. It's a. It's a great joy I have. It's a. It's a joke. It's a joke from a Catholic friend who is a professor of mine, and it's only half a joke because we were talking about Lent and during Lent, I. Who don't drink alcohol, and my friend who is a professor of mine said, oh, yeah, I have friends in San Francisco who also abstain from alcohol during Lent. So they've decided only beer and wine, which I thought was a great idea. But on the other hand, it also reveals to me something that I hope to get into later after we talk about all the important things in your study. Uh, we here, especially in the United States, which has such a Protestant puritanical tradition, we have. There's a, there's a cloud hanging over alcohol in, at least in the United States. But I find that in, in my own life, every time I've made mistakes, things that I've regretted, either clumsy or, or, or, or hurtful, it's usually because I'm drinking the hard stuff, whereas I think wine gets us into less trouble. And so this, I think that distinction is also quite interesting because you really do emphasize wine. You are a Lutheran scholar in Franconia, not too far from Wittenberg, but also not too far from Bavaria, where many Catholics.
- [04:58]
Randy Frazee
Yeah, absolutely.
- [04:59]
Chris Odiniec
Raise a glass.
- [05:00]
Gisla Kreglinger
The village that I grew up in, we were surrounded by Catholic villages. It's a primarily Catholic region. And, you know, historically our Lutheran family wasn't allowed to intermarry with Catholics. But then my great aunt rebelled and she married a Catholic. And then the waters were bro. So now I have a sister who is married to a Catholic, which is wonderful.
- [05:25]
Chris Odiniec
Yeah, well, Tell us about. Tell us about this work. Tell us about your. Your life and your childhood growing up in that environment. And people who go to the Wine in the Word Bible study and watch your YouTube videos, they will see it's. It's Edenic. It's a beautiful vineyard where you and your colleague are talking about these things and tell us about that.
- [05:49]
Gisla Kreglinger
Yeah, so I grew up on a winery in Franconia. It's a very old wine region. Hildegard van Bingen came there to speak, and it was actually Benedictine nuns who are first mentioned in growing vines there in the seventh century. So there's a very old tradition of wine growing in the Christian faith, the Catholic faith. And then our village became Lutheran in the early 17th century. And so I grew up in a culture of faith, and in our village, it was Lutheran, but also it was very agrarian, and it was a wine region. So for us as a family, the world of wine and the world of faith were always deeply intertwined. And it was for the whole region, it was part of the culture, whether it was in the liturgy or whether it was on, you know, the sort of the wayside shrines and the vineyards, the paintings on the houses. It was just very deeply integrated. And it wasn't ever an issue between, you know, the Christian faith and wine. So that. That was one thing that was deeply, deeply ingrained in me, that this is. This belongs together. And I remember vividly for our harvest Thanksgiving service in October, I think that was always in October. My mom would take me out into the vineyard, and she would look for the most beautiful grape cluster on a branch, and then she would cut those and bring that to the altar to decorate the altar for the harvest Thanksgiving service. So there was always this profound sense that what we did in the vineyard and what happened in the church was somehow connected and the same with the Eucharist. I remember when I got confirmed and I was able to partake of the Eucharist for the first time. And I write about that in my introduction to the spirituality of wine. That was a monumental experience for me because, you know, you learn all about what the Eucharist is and about the forgiveness of sins, and it's about you and God. And I remember when the Eucharistic cup came to me and I smelled it and I tasted it, and I thought, this smells like home. This smells like our lives on the winery. And it was sort of this revelation to me that this isn't just about me and God. God wants to redeem everything and all of life on the winery, including all the challenges that we had with three.
- [08:27]
Randy Frazee
Or even four generations living and working.
- [08:29]
Gisla Kreglinger
Together on a winery, all the workers in their stories and their hardships, the weather in failed harvests, whatever it was, I felt, wow, God cares about this. So I think that was a very, very experience for me in sort of planting a seed to think about the connection between wine and theology. I've always had sort of this theological mind from when I was fairly little, asking a lot of hard questions. So that was one part. The other part was I grew up in a tasting. We had people come to the tasting room every day, and there were wine tastings all the time.
- [09:09]
Randy Frazee
And I don't know how many of.
- [09:10]
Gisla Kreglinger
You know Germans, but Germans can be quite serious, a little uptight, pretending we.
- [09:14]
Randy Frazee
Have it all together.
- [09:16]
Gisla Kreglinger
And I'm reserved. And I remember people coming to the winery for wine tastings, and they would be reserved and quite serious and sit down and then my dad would introduce the wines and would. Every wine they sampled, they relaxed a little bit more. Smiles came more easily. And it sort of broke down sort of the barriers that we have or the facades that we feel like we have to put up to appear as respectable. And the whole atmosphere would change over the course of an evening, and laughter and joy and confessions came more easily. Confessions of delight and joy, but also confessions of hardship, loss and failure. I remember particularly one man talking about his son being estranged from him and how he suffered from that, and just shared that in that evening. And so I watched this my whole life long, and it never got out of control. It was very sort of contained, but very convivial. And it opened up a space for deeper bonding, for deeper communing, for deeper conversations, and really brought a disparate group of people together in a wonderful way. And I think that was a profound experience for me. And I saw that in my family as well, all the time. You know, having three generations live and work together, not easy. And so there were a lot of tensions with running a family business and. But we always got together at the table. Always, often. And so those were beautiful spaces where, you know, we were able to sort of let go of whatever stressed us out and really be together and share. And. Yeah, so I think that was very, very important to me. And the other thing I want to say is when I tell people that I grew up on a winery, especially in North America, they have these. I can just see it in their.
- [11:19]
Randy Frazee
Eyes, the ice glaze over.
- [11:20]
Gisla Kreglinger
Oh, that must have been such a wonderful way to grow up. And growing up on a winery, is growing up on a farm and we worked really, really hard. And I remember one chore in particular when we were younger, smaller. We had to crawl into the wine vats because they only had a small opening with hose, with brush to clean the wine vats from inside. An adult couldn't crawl in. And I would say, dad, it is so smelly and dark and dirty in here. I, I don't, I'm scared. And my dad would say, just scrap harder. You'll get over it. So it was a very intense life and we worked really, really hard. And even as children, we were just sort of drawn into that, you know. So, yes, we did sit in the courtyard sometimes and enjoy a glass of wine or, you know, for children, of course it wasn't wine but. Or have coffee and cake in the afternoon. But it was actually a really, really intense and quite a hard way to grow up because it was all focused on the winery. So we were just sort of, we were good helpers.
- [12:27]
Chris Odiniec
Yeah, no, absolutely. It's interesting to me that this is such a Mediterranean tradition that has spread all over the world with, with Christianity. I would say, you know, we were talking before we hit record about my, my family in Poland and your family in Germany. I learned last month that Poland didn't have wine until the 16th century. Before that, you know, before they learned about Italy from the Renaissance, they, they drank mead or perhaps they had beer or something like that. So some of this is culturally contingent. And I learned from your book that the oldest vineyard is 6,000 years old in Armenia and that you talk about Noah planting a vineyard when, after the flood. So that is the very first thing that happened according to the old Testamen tradition.
- [13:19]
Gisla Kreglinger
Yeah, absolutely.
- [13:20]
Chris Odiniec
Yeah.
- [13:21]
Randy Frazee
And now we know.
- [13:22]
Gisla Kreglinger
We, you know, as more excavations are happening, they are excavating Neolithic villages in China, so they are finding residues of wine in, in those areas. So we have an 8,000 year history to look back. So that's really amazing. And if you want to jump into the story of Noah, I always feel that, you know, Noah was the man of faith because he planted the ark. And then there is. There's a lot of interpretation that. Well, and then somehow afterwards he really lost it because he planted a vineyard and got drunk. And like, wait a minute, you know.
- [14:02]
Randy Frazee
I think you have to be a.
- [14:03]
Gisla Kreglinger
Little bit more contextual and understand the culture. And for Noah to come off the ark in that we learn in the story that he plants a vineyard, rather than fast yielding crop like grains, is actually another act of faith in God's future. You Know, the wine culture was already around and associated with civilizations and the high cultures within that. So for Noah, to plant a vineyard was really an act of faith in God's future. God has called us, he's going to make us into a civilization. And you know, a vineyard only bears significant fruit four to five years after it's been planted. So really, I think we need to realize that here. Noah, you know, he, this is another act of faith to plant a vineyard, to trust in God's future. And then, yes, Noah got drunk. But think about that. If you had gone through what Noah had gone through, you had planted the vineyard, waited four or five or six years, years to get your first, you know, decent harvest in wine, I probably would have gotten a little intoxicated as well, because it is such an incredibly joyful and wonderful and miraculous experience to plant a vineyard in God's good soil and to wait and then harvest grapes and craft wine. So I think that's really important for us to, to remember. And it's also really important within the story to realize that Noah is not judged for being drunk. It is his son and grandson who are judged because they are. You know, it was a shameful thing for him to just drop naked into the tent, but they then spread, spread what happened and intensified the shame. And I think it's a lot more about, rather than, you know, giving dignity to Noah, they just sort of gossiped and made it all worse. So I think Noah is a man and was a man of faith even as he planted a vineyard. And this is how the story of vineyards and wine really begins in the Bible. And from then on, it is a very important theme of God's good creation and of God's salvation.
- [16:29]
Chris Odiniec
Yeah, no, I think that is, that's such a good point, which I would not have noticed had you not pointed it out to me, that Noah is not judged for, okay, for his mistake, but who doesn't make mistakes. And we praise his sons who protect him in his vulnerability, and we condemn his son who, you know, exploited that, which I think probably everybody has been in that situation where you're, you're with, with a friend and a friend is making a mistake and you can protect your friend or you can humiliate your friend. Yeah, yeah.
- [17:01]
Gisla Kreglinger
And that's exactly what happened. And this is how things escalate.
- [17:06]
Chris Odiniec
Yeah.
- [17:07]
Gisla Kreglinger
In a shame based culture, that makes it even worse. We can't even understand that, how terrible that would have been. And so I think, I think what we learn here is, yes, accidents happen. They happen on all levels, not just with alcohol. But how do you deal with them?
- [17:24]
Chris Odiniec
Yeah.
- [17:25]
Gisla Kreglinger
You know, how do you. There's an appropriate way to deal with that and to learn from it. And, you know, this is the wonderful thing about Scripture. You see, okay, Noah obviously had to learn how to deal with alcohol. But look at the Book of Proverbs. There's actually a quite extended treatment of wine in a very positive way, but also in terms of warning not to get drunk. And even the description of someone who has. Is drunk and has a hangover to deter the young from abusing wine. And so it's really good to see how within the Hebrew tradition, this evolved and they learned how to deal with it. You know, how to set boundaries without minimizing that wine is a gift from God. And Proverbs end with the. You know, the wise and shrewd wife plants a vineyard just like Noah. This is how the Book of Proverbs ends.
- [18:25]
Chris Odiniec
Well, there's also something. The way you describe the correct use of wine, which is around a table with beloved friends and not in your tent by yourself. Yeah, that's. I think that was like, he. He can learn from that example. I don't know if you've seen Babette's Feast.
- [18:42]
Gisla Kreglinger
Yes.
- [18:43]
Chris Odiniec
At that film. Like, that's how that movie ends, where they're all at the table in abundance and super abundance and so much joy and love.
- [18:50]
Gisla Kreglinger
Yeah. Babette's Feast is one of the few art pieces, and I actually discuss it in my book, the Spirituality of Wine. When I talk about Feast, I really discuss Babette's Feast and draw out the.
- [19:02]
Randy Frazee
Theological themes that are woven into the.
- [19:06]
Gisla Kreglinger
Food in the fabric of the film. And I have not seen a film where the invisible movement of God's grace is made visible at the table with food and wine. It is a powerful film, and this is what we need to come back to, especially in our time. We're so divided as a nation. There's so much turmoil. We as Christians need to bring people back to the table and to celebrate together and then build bridges. And I think food and wine can really open us up to one another and help us say, okay, yes, we have divisions and we have disagreements, but let's look at what we have in common. There's so much that we have in common and. And weave into the fabric of our society.
- [19:55]
Randy Frazee
Again.
- [19:57]
Gisla Kreglinger
This life around the table, conviviality and feasting and that we are God's beloved children and we are here to help heal rather than fracture.
- [20:12]
Chris Odiniec
Yeah. And there's something about the Abundance at the feast, which you talk about explicitly, that God is a God of exquisite extravagance. And that's not how we live, you know, because we. We are trying to be frugal here on this planet as we scrape by. And. But that is not the message in. In the. In the feast. So what. What is God up to? How come. How come everything is. It seems too good to be true, as is everything in Christianity. And perhaps it is, but. But it is true.
- [20:44]
Randy Frazee
Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think the whole way we.
- [20:48]
Gisla Kreglinger
Do aquaculture today is not helpful for understanding the abundance of the Earth. For example, I grew up on. We had a big family garden, and it is incredible how much can grow on a small plot of land. But because we now have given over the production of food to, you know, corporate companies and agribusinesses that does monoculture and produces food that's really hard on the soil and that's also often processed and not very nourishing for us, I think we don't really get to see anymore how amazing this Earth is and the bounty that it can bring forth and how it can nourish and heal us. Most of the food that we get today to eat doesn't. It's high in calories, low in nutrition, and makes us overweight. So it's a very broken food system. And so I think in order for us to really understand the bounty of the Earth, we need to come back to a different way of doing agriculture. You know, and if I may come into the realm of wine, in the whole conversation about the dangers of drinking alcohol, I'd like to say that, first of all, there are thousands of studies done. They're not often very differentiated between hard liquor, beer and wine, but they also don't differentiate it between conventional agriculture, where you use a lot of herbicides and pesticides, and then you add a ton to the wine and organic or biodynamic wines. And so, you know, we need to realize that food that's grown in a conventional way, we know that's not healthy, but food that is grown in a more organic way is much healthier for you. And when it's not processed, you know, when it's not processed. And I think with wine, we have to. We also have to look at that, you know, you have to make sure that you get wine that's well crafted. Yes. You have to pay a bit more for it. Well, that means you probably don't drink as much, you know, but it's this choice that we as consumers have to eat and drink Redemptively to support farmers who heal the soil and the earth, who take care to craft something and don't add all of these additives that are not good for you. So I think this is our vocation as Christians, to be part of God's redemption through the choices that we make in the kind of wines that we eat, the kind of meat that we eat, the kind of food that we eat. My weekly pilgrimage every week is to go to the farmer's market on Saturday morning. I know my farmers. I'm having a little chat with them. I thank them for the hard work they do. And, yes, I have to pay more for my food.
- [23:48]
Randy Frazee
You know, Thomas Jefferson said that agriculture is one of our most important vocations from God, and we need to reclaim agriculture. It is a vocation from God, and we need to be good stewards. So one way as consumers we can do that is to support farmers who do that, to have that vision. And so I feel like this is a very powerful way for me to be part of God's redemption, you know, and, you know, when it comes to wine, I'm the same way.
- [24:20]
Gisla Kreglinger
I.
- [24:21]
Randy Frazee
We have a lovely wine shop in town run by two young Christian entrepreneurs who wanted to make a difference. And so they opened a wine shop.
- [24:31]
Gisla Kreglinger
Where they sell organic wines, biodynamic wines.
- [24:34]
Randy Frazee
Small wineries who, as much as they can find out, treat their workers well.
- [24:42]
Gisla Kreglinger
I think this is the underground work.
- [24:47]
Randy Frazee
That we really need to be thinking about today.
- [24:51]
Chris Odiniec
I think that sounds very, very true. I think, you know, there's so many things that in the right amount, they can be special. In the wrong amount, they can be gluttonous. And there's nothing that, you know, it could be with food. It could be with the right and wrong kind of sexual activity. It could be anything. With the body, it could be.
- [25:13]
Randy Frazee
Yeah.
- [25:16]
Chris Odiniec
I don't know. Can be made, can be. Can be ruined. We can ruin everything. But we can also celebrate things the correct way, in the godly way.
- [25:25]
Randy Frazee
Yeah, well, and I think this is the journey of salvation and redemption is to redeem our lives, actually, how they are in the way we consume, in the way we work, in the way we live, our relationships, all of it matters. It's not like, here's my spiritual life over here, and then when I eat or when I work, you know, I. That's just something else. It's like, no, food and wine in the Bible are gifts from God. When you think about the Garden of Eden, the first vision that we have of our life with God, there are fruit trees that are beautiful to look at and good for food. So it envisions our relationship with God through the food that we eat. We commune with God through the bounty that he brings forth. And I think we need to recover that both for food and wine, and then of course, practice that in a very purposeful way around the table.
- [26:29]
Chris Odiniec
One of the places I've lived when I was a young man was in Mali in West Africa as a Peace Corps volunteer, which was a very poor place. And when we had a wedding, it was a big deal. Everybody got a new set of clothes and we would kill some sheep or goats and everybody would eat meat, which are very special things. And I live in a society where you can buy new clothes every day and you can eat meat three times a day and it's no longer special. So there's something about that balance of fasting and feasting.
- [27:00]
Randy Frazee
Absolutely.
- [27:01]
Chris Odiniec
And I think you described that. Now I'm looking at your study guide where you talk about the wedding at Canaan and the fact I don't know how many gallons were in those six jugs, but it was a lot. It was like 120 gallons of excellent wine or something. Something like that. Yeah. Would you. Do you talk about this, you know, this first miracle of Jesus that's such a big one for us?
- [27:22]
Randy Frazee
Absolutely. And I think it's very, very important that it really builds upon the whole theme of wine in the Hebrew scriptures. So it's not just like now suddenly this first of Jesus miracle appears, but when you look at the latter prophets and they speak about God's redemption and bringing his people back to the promised land after sending them into exile, there was this theme of, you know, God will bring an anointed one and a Messiah and there will be feasting and there will be lots of wine, wine even flowing down the mountain. It will be like a wedding feast. So when Jesus comes to the wedding feast of Cana, those feasts lasted usually seven days.
- [28:10]
Chris Odiniec
That's amazing.
- [28:11]
Randy Frazee
It is amazing. When he transforms water into fine wine, he really speaks to those prophecies and says, I am the Messiah. I am the anointed one that God has sent to bring salvation and it's going to flow in abundance. So that's one, you know, level of this miracle, but on a very basic level, and I love how Dostoevsky discusses that in the Brothers Karamazov, there's a whole chapter on Cana. And again, I discussed that in two of my books in Cup Overflowing, Jesus did not just come to Heal people, to share in their suffering, to touch them in their suffering. Jesus came to join in the celebrations of ordinary people and to share their joy and deepen their joy. And I think that's very important to think about that. Jesus came down to earth, the Son of God, to share in the joys and celebrations of ordinary people. And in that miracle, he steps in when they run out of wine and produces wine. So they. It. It prolongs the celebrations and deepens the sense of joy. And I think it also hints at that. So much of how the Jewish people have lived into their faith was through meals and feasts and celebrations. Think about the Passover meal. This is how they retold the story of the Passover and God's salvation. It is through a meal. And the food had theological meaning. And they smelled and tasted and remembered what God has done. And I think that's something very important. We, especially in the west, we live in our head. We think the right thoughts. If we just think the right thoughts and we. We have the right theology and we confess the right theology, then, you know, we are good Christians. But actually we need to descend into our bodies and we need to experience this life of salvation in our bodies and in the way we are together as God's people.
- [30:37]
Chris Odiniec
Well, we Catholics like to say that that makes us distinctive. And I think Jews can say the same thing, that everything is so physical, everything is so corporeal. So I really appreciate you saying that. How do you understand Jesus? I mean, Jesus as the vine and we are the branches, and Jesus as the great bridegroom, and we, the church, as the bride. Why is this so central? This is it. This plus bread is the body and blood of Christ.
- [31:08]
Gisla Kreglinger
Yes.
- [31:10]
Chris Odiniec
What is the mechanism? What's going on?
- [31:12]
Randy Frazee
Okay, we have the metaphor of I.
- [31:15]
Gisla Kreglinger
Am the vine, you are the branches.
- [31:17]
Randy Frazee
So that. That. That's one reality that we need to deal with, which is the. The metaphorical world where, you know, Israel is talked about as God's vine and chosen vineyard. You know, and even, you know, when we. When. When. When Jesus comes and talks about the owner of the vineyard and Israel as.
- [31:36]
Gisla Kreglinger
The vineyard not bearing fruit.
- [31:38]
Randy Frazee
And then for him to talk about himself as the vine, which, you know, in the biblical story, Israel is called the vine. He now is the new Israel and those he gathers into himself. And I think that's a very, very powerful metaphor within the biblical imagination, so to speak. You know, that we are in Christ. You have the true humanity, who is also God. You know, think about the tree of life. I feel like there probably is a merging of metaphors. The metaphor of the vine, which is historically or in the biblical story, associated with Israel and the tree of life, which is about God. And so in Jesus Christ you have God, the tree of life and Israel, God's people come together. So Jesus is God and he is also the first fruit of the new humanity. And we are grafted into that reality. So it's a very, very powerful metaphor for reimagining God's people at that time. So that's one reality. And then you speak about, you know, wine being used as the blood of Christ. And I think that there's a lot. And we talk about that in wine, in the Word. We have a whole session where Randy and I together feast out together. What is the meaning of that? Because again, the meaning of this or why it is used, there are many levels to it. You know, as I said, wine in the Hebrew scriptures very much is seen as a gift and tangible blessing from God. Wine as a beverage, especially red wine, there are a lot of, you know, sort of similarities in terms of the color and perhaps also a thicker red wine, the viscosity to blood. So there is this sort of association that you could drink wine and think of blood. And actually that's in the ancient world, that's often been done. And so I think that there's a close association. So it works very much as, as a symbol that carries that meaning. And the whole wine making process really parallels the process of Christ being crushed for the sins of the world. You know, the grapes that are harvested, pressed and crushed in, the blood flowing and it being fermented into fine wine. So Christ is crushed, his blood flows, and his sacrificial death is fermented into resurrection, life and power. So it's a very potent way to speak about the blood of Christ. I can't think of anything else that you could use that would be so potent and so deep in its association with blood in the sacrifice that Christ has given for us.
- [34:52]
Chris Odiniec
I'm sort of speechless about this idea and I guess this more about the whole arc of salvation and the story of how did we get into this mess, how do we get out of this mess? And why did God allow this? I mean, this is beyond our topic. But why did God allow us to get into this situation? And then why did God come and get us out? I suppose he has to use symbols because we can't understand.
- [35:20]
Randy Frazee
Yeah, I mean, language is powerful. We have been given beautiful language and imagery, but it's limited in what it can Say, you know, when Paul says we've been baptized into Christ's death, you know, like buried into Christ's death so we might rise in the resurrection, he's using a metaphor to get the greatest mystery that we could think of. Through Christ's death and resurrection, we are taken into his death and. And partake in the life of the resurrection. And the ramifications for that are endless. It takes a lifetime to really meditate on that. So it's beautiful that we have this world in the language and powerful, but we also have to realize there are limitations, you know, especially in the Catholic tradition with its mystical tradition, you know, the limits of language and that you then sort of enter into this realm of just awe and wonder at who God is and how he's revealed himself.
- [36:25]
Chris Odiniec
I think we can only get a feeling of it, as one does when something, you know, something transcendental happens. And It's. What does C.S. lewis say? It's like the echoes of poem you've never heard or something like that. And. But we know. We know it's good and we can feel his goodness and we can feel the little miracles in our. In our life. And. Yeah, this is this in your. In your study guide. This is going to be, I think, chapter, I don't remember chapter five maybe, but the precious blood of Christ.
- [36:55]
Randy Frazee
But I think it's. My passion has been with both cup overflowing, but also with the video series.
- [37:01]
Gisla Kreglinger
In the study guide, Wine in the Word.
- [37:03]
Randy Frazee
I think there are two sections in the Wine in the Words study guide where I want to encourage the Christian community to really talk about our very ambivalent feelings about wine and alcohol, more widely speaking, to understand why we have such ambivalent feelings in this country and how we can move forward. And I think having conversations, understanding, okay, what is our relationship with alcohol in my life and in the life of my family, and then also asking, what is our relationship or how is it lived in my sort of community, in my society to become aware of that and then see, where do we need to heal and where do we need to just speak differently to a younger generation about it? Because usually we don't talk about it. It's a sort of a subject matter that the church doesn't want to address. And then only for those who struggle with addiction and alcohol abuse, for those people, we offer ministries like Alcoholics Anonymous to help them. But we need to find a positive and constructive way forward. And this is sort of my hope and passion for this next season of my life to help the church own this conversation and to say we are called by God to be salt and light in the world. And one aspect that our society doesn't do very well often is how to savor wine and alcohol. And so we can say, well, it is in our belief, in our Christian belief, it is a gift from God and it has a mission. It is to bring us joy, conviviality, bring us together around the table. And so let's own this gift and understand better what its role and mission is and then share that with the world. And I think those kind of conversations we need to have, we need to have more open conversations in our families, in our church groups, you know, within the church. And this is my hope for this next season. So anyone who would like to have that kind of kind of conversation, there is an appendix to help start the conversation. In Cup Overflowing and in both Cup Overflowing and Wine in the World study Guide, there are also instructions for how to hold a wine tasting. As a spirit of practice, we need to learn how to taste wine and enjoy wine.
- [39:34]
Gisla Kreglinger
That becomes a form of prayer.
- [39:36]
Randy Frazee
And that's what I've been doing for years now. I've gone various places and have held evenings where we have a wine tasting. But with every wine, I offer meditation to help people realize this can and should be a spiritual practice.
- [39:53]
Chris Odiniec
Gisla, I hope that everyone who's listening to us will check out Cup Overflowing, the Spirituality of Wine and the the Soul of Wine and the study guide called Wine in the Word. You can see the first episode on YouTube and I hope everyone will check it out. Thank you very much for speaking with me today on Almost Good Catholics and for all of your writing and for all of your work. And I personally had a lot to think about and I'm very grateful for your work.
- [40:21]
Randy Frazee
Well, thank you. It's been a delight and a joy to be in conversation with you. Christoph.
- [40:27]
Chris Odiniec
Thank you. Would you like to close us in prayer?
- [40:30]
Randy Frazee
Yes. Friends who are listening, may God give you of the dew of heaven, of the fatness of the earth, and plenty of grain and wine. Thank you for listening. Amen.
- [40:49]
Chris Odiniec
Amen.
- [41:08]
Gisla Kreglinger
The son of Mary.
- [41:12]
Chris Odiniec
Chrysodinius and Gisla Kreglinger recorded this conversation as episode 106 on Tuesday, August 12, 2025. It was the feast day of St. Jane Francis de Chantal, born Jean Francoise Freniot in Dijon in France. An influential and noble family. She got married. She had lots of kids, but later was widowed and she became a nun. So this noble lady has really done it all. She's the patron saint of people who are forgotten, parents separate from from their children and widows. St. Jane Francis de Chantal, pray for us. Our music is from Josh and Margot of the Great Space Coaster Band. Check them out@www.GSCoasterBand.com. and our logo, the image of the dog is taken from a stained glass window at Santo Domingo de Silos in Spain and is used here with the kind permission of the Dominican friars of England, Scotland and Wales from there and taken from their website@www.english.op.org. i'm Chris Odinis. Thank you so much for listening. Talk to you next time on Homeless Good Catholics.
- [42:15]
Gisla Kreglinger
This this is Christ the King whom shepherds God and angels sing.
- [42:32]
Marshall Poe
Sam.