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Daneesh Majid, "The Hyderabadis: From 1947 to the Present Day" (Harper Collins, 2025)
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- [00:01]
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- [00:33]
Neha Navarapu
Network hello everyone and welcome to New Books Network. My name is Neha Navarapu and I'm delighted to be co hosting this episode with Khadija Amenda. Together we are in conversation with Danish Majid, who is a journalist and a writer based in the Indian city of Hyderabad and writes about South Asian culture, security and Urdu literature. Danish is the author of a wonderful new book titled the Hyderabadis from 1947 to the present day, which was published in 2025 by Harper Collins India. Khadija and I spoke to him about this new book which is such a stellar example of how modern history can be told and retold through intimate and oral histories of common people. So we hope you enjoy our conversation. Hi Danish, it's so great to have you on the New Books Network podcast. Khadija and I are excited to chat with you about your brand new book the Hyderabadis. It was such a great read and I've told you this in person when we met as well, but I think you write in such an engaging way. It makes reading and understanding historical fact so much. It's so lively and it's so vivid the way you write in this narrative format. So I really want to commend the writing of the book. It was very enjoyable. But before we get into the book itself, I think we should start this podcast conversation with getting to know you a little bit better. So would you tell us a little bit about yourself and in particular, how did you come to become a journalist and a writer?
- [02:06]
Danish Majid
Thank you so much Sneha and Khadijah for having me. And I could not be more appreciative of the fact that you're heaping a lot of praise upon my book because it did take a long time to do this, whether it was the researching or the actual crafting of the narrative. But to answer your question, I started writing mostly in the summer of 2016. This was when I was spending a summer in the US and Canada, not too before my grad school started in soas that following, just following that summer. So I always had that inclination and that desire to put my thoughts on a pen and paper. But it's not an easy task to do whether it's a full fledged book or even a 800 word feature because weaving in research with the narrative, it requires a lot of diligence and a certain flair. You can have the academic research but then getting that journalistic flair, especially with respect to a long form narrative of sorts, that's where, that's where a real write up comes about. So before going to grad school, Raza Rumi, who is a. He's a prolific author, journalist and thought leader from Pakistan, currently settled in the US he's the one who initially encouraged me to write and many other family members did too but. And I couldn't be more grateful to them as well. Whether it was immediate or extended. But it was Raza who first got me published in his weekly newspaper which he edited from while he was in Washington D.C. in the New York Friday Times. Johan the newspaper, it's a weekly that publishes some really good hard news but more so long form features write ups. And this was around August 15th of 2016. I had happened to be in the DC and Maryland area where I got in touch with a few old acquaintances. I mean I used to meet up with them but only then when I found out that they had a lot of connections to India through their elders who had lived in what is today independent India. When they, in 1947 they moved to what is today Pakistan and it was just interesting to get their stories. And I just thought if, if I'm getting this encouragement from Raza Rumi, why not turn these, these interviews into full fledged write ups. And then that's how it started. And then even when I was in London for my grad school at soas I did contribute to the Wire and other publications as well. Then I got back to India where I really got to delve into more of the Hyderabad, the more literary and historical aspects of Hyderabad's history. And the publications that really allowed me to showcase my researching and writing capabilities that I was slowly developing were the Hindu Business Line Inc. At that time. But come Covid I had Mint Lounge was the publication that further let me hone my skills. So ultimately becoming a journalist, especially if you're in the long form features type writing and that's the type of writing you prefer working with different editors, whether it's do a full time job, which I also had a little before and during COVID with the, with the English version of the, of the popular Urdu deliciasa.com so, so working with siassa.com and other publications freelance, that's what really helped me hone my craft. So ultimately working with different editors is how one goes about really refining their writing skills and researching skills to a certain extent. So that's the short version of how I came to, you know, how I came to become a writer, journalist and then eventually an author.
- [06:25]
Neha Navarapu
Oh, wow. Thank you. Thanks for taking us through. That was really interesting. Yeah, yeah.
- [06:30]
Khadija Amenda
Thank you Dhanush, once again for sharing your journey of becoming a book writer as such. Now maybe we can go into the further details of the book as such. So the book kind of remembers Hyderabad not through grand political narratives, but through many unsaid memories. How important was it for you to move away from the dominant way or, you know, the state centric or nationalist framework and instead foreground these personal and regional memories?
- [07:05]
Danish Majid
It was very important because a lot of these people centric histories we see about all that transpired in 47, 48, they're mostly limited to Punjab, Bengal, Sindh and North India. And while those are stories that need to be told, the fact is that a lot of other authors, they've, they took it upon themselves and that too promptly before a lot of these people who had seen those times in the 30s and 40s before they, you know, passed away. Hyderabad. There are many memories regarding what happened in the, in the 1948 police action. And just because they weren't chronicled or under chronicled, especially through more, especially through more of a people centric lens, that doesn't mean that these memories didn't linger and it sure doesn't mean that they weren't there. And the thing is, Hyderabadis, a lot of people say this in jest, but it is, there's a lot of truth. Hyderabadis can, they're very inertia ridden when it comes to, you know, doing, you know, putting out these narratives that have always been there. It's either the inertia or the fact that they haven't really, you know, familiarized themselves with their publishing ecosystem outside of Hyderabad, which, which definitely may or may not have, is, have its flaws. I'm not saying it's perfect, but at the same time they have the, they have the infrastructure and the distribution to make sure that these books get out. And by these, by these publishers up north in Delhi, I don't just mean the big ones like Simon Schuster, Harper, Penguin, et cetera, et cetera. There's also Alif Juggernaut, but A lot of these works that have come out about this episode, they've either been very statesman centric as you correctly pointed out and those statesman centric works include, you know, KM Munshi is the end of an era. He was the agent general of India as negotiations were going, were taking place to have India merge with the Indian Union or they look at you know, things to what happened to you know, the Nizam, the the ruling establishment, I. E. The tragedy of Hyderabad. He was the last, what they called at that time the sad Azam or the Prime Minister of princely Hyderabad. The destruction of Hyderabad. While it wasn't necessarily written by somebody who's from the Indian or erstwhile Asaf Jahi establishment, that too for the most part was very top down statesman centric in that it looked at what happened in 1948, 48 through the eyes of those in power. And those narratives, while very necessary, they're also far, far and few in between. So it was very important to get a more people centric view out because a lot of these quote unquote mainstream narratives, whether it's the loyalist Asaf Jahi view or the hardcore nationalist views that are being pushed and pushed through a right wing ecosystem, they're very, there's like a huge binary usually this loyalist view. And one thing I noticed about these loyalist views, they come from people who are mostly overseas. They might live in the fancy suburbs of New Jersey but yet they still say oh this, this merger, it was the, this merger or this invasion that happened by the Indian government into Hyderabad. It was totally unnecessary. Hyderabad should have remained independent. We are in the, we lived in a paradise and everything was great until the Indian government came. While to a certain extent I agree that there were very positive aspects about Asaf Jay I Hyderabad under the Nizam. Not every single subject had it good. This was a Muslim, a Muslim minority ruled strait hovering over a Hindu majority. And as you may have read in my book, Muslims like Sheikh Bandagi, they didn't have it good in the districts of Telangana either. So it's just interesting how a lot of these perspectives from overseas but and they're and they or their kids will most likely never come back to Hyderabad unless it's for a one and a half, two month vacation. And in a way I kind of understand those narratives that they passed on to their kids who live in the United States, Canada or England or Australia because those narratives are the only connections they're you know, second or third generation western kids, kids or grandkids have. That's the only connection they have to their quote unquote homeland. But at the same time it doesn't compensate for the truth on the other end. You have a lot of, a lot of, you know, nationalist histories, one that just paint, you know, Muslims as the sole oppressors of Hindus in Hyderabad state when that is certainly not the case. A lot of, you know, Hindu feudals in the districts, they're very much co opted by the Asaf Jahi establishment in that they were the first level of oppression that mostly Hindu peasants faced. And these Hindu nobles that a lot of people called Doras, they were more than happy to help extract that labor and get, get the yield, whether it was cops or money or just back breaking, back breaking peasants work in the fields. So it's, it's just interesting how these, this binary is all we get to hear. So sometimes, you know, a lot of these oral histories, they bring nuances to, to these narratives that have unfortunately caught a lot of steam and gained currency in today's very polarizing times. So this is exactly why it was important for me to, to get, to get to speak to a lot of people who had first as a secondhand stories of what went on that time and what they experienced in the aftermath. Because if you don't get these, these stories, then we can't always complain that, oh, people with more money, power or a robust IT cell behind them always get to have the last word.
- [13:36]
Neha Navarapu
Yeah, thank you. Yeah. And you know, what was also really interesting about the book is the way you've sort of conceptualized telling the story, right, which is full of nuance. And we see these chapters each having a protagonist and you really focus on their everyday lives and their experiences of some really ordinary and extraordinary Hyderabadis. Right. And their life stories are pretty much the backbone of the book. And you tell the story of Hyderabad through these various stories. Right. So could you tell us a little bit about how you went around, you know, how you went about choosing these particular individuals to narrate the story of Hyderabad and whether, you know, what are the logics that kind of guided your selection in terms of whose stories and whose lives you wanted to include in
- [14:25]
Danish Majid
the book first and foremost? There was ultimately a question of access and deadlines because like I mentioned before, when talking about how other regions of what was British India, stories that came from there, and the authors that chronicle them, they're very prompt in getting in, speaking to elders who had seen those times before they left for their heavenly abodes. So I was lucky enough to get four firsthand stories of what went down either in Marathwada where a lot of the police action massacres happened or even in the Telangana districts where Chukkara Maya saw firsthand the oppression of the Hindu feudals and how even Muslims stood up against him. So first and foremost they say right, you know, the first people you go to when you start a business are friends, fools and family. So I mean while, not while I won't say the people who I, who I got access to were fools of course. But ultimately the low hanging fruits is what you go to because you want to get these stories as quickly as possible before in Ayuba Ali Khan's words. So in Ayubali Khan was chapter five in my book. So first and foremost I had to just do my due diligence in gathering these sources but I didn't want to. But despite the speed with which I wanted to go about and which I went about gathering these sources, I made sure that there was this diversity among the subjects whom I chose because I mentioned in my last answer about, you know, not looking at everything through the binary. So the first five chapters are Hyderabadi Muslims who stayed in, who stayed in Hyderabad after 48, whether they went on to the United States or the Gulf, that's, that's different. But these first five, they stood, they remained in Hyderabad. Post 48 chapter 6 the Hyderabadi Pakistani I have a lot of, you know, Hyderabadi Pakistani relatives in the United States and certain parts of Canada as well too. So that's one thing that not many people know that there was an exodus of Hyderabadi Muslims to Karachi as well. Everybody thinks it was just Lucknow, Dilli Bihav and that's where a lot of these, the North Indian cream migrated. But there was a exodus of not just feudal but professional Muslims as well and they contributed to the, to what we know today as modern day Karachi as well too. And luckily I, through the, through one generous introduction of a, of, of a literary curator in Toronto I got to, I got to meet Ali Adel Khan the Hyderabadi Pakistani. The and then chapter seven and eight were Telangana Teluguz. They one was somebody who I knew already because I worked with his daughter when I was@siasad.com and his daughter Shruti and the father Aparasu Srinivasarao. They were just so forthcoming with all that they had their families had been through in 1948 and what transpired for them during the Telangana statehood struggles as well. I was put in touch during, through a mutual acquaintance. The Kayas families I knew very well because because for one, from a lot of my reportage, Oudesh Rani Baba, whose cousin's story I chronicled in chapter nine, she's just been a grandmotherly treasurely trove. Grandmotherly treasure trove of knowledge about Hyderabad and Urdu literature. So it was mostly, you know, having the access but also generous, generous introductions that just came about by being in the right place at the right time.
- [18:37]
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Danish Majid
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- [19:33]
Neha Navarapu
You know, I think there were. It was so great to have these little windows into like the intergenerational sort of conversations. And I could see that even though, I mean I know that Halima B is there a couple of other women come and go. It is mostly the men protagonists, right? But you do see the social reproduction within the family and how there is this gendered landscape within the family that's sort of also playing a part in these sort of figures and the kinds of decisions that they're making through these times. So I really appreciated that nuance as well. Thank you.
- [20:09]
Khadija Amenda
Yeah, thank you. Sneha and Danish. Now I guess maybe we can go into a bit of details starting from police action or the annexation of Hyderabad to the Indian Union in 1940, 48, through military violence. And in the book it is remembered through personal experiences, interviews such as that of Halima Bs as Neha mentioned it right now, also other literary sources. Do you think there has been a collective failure in remembering this painful chapter of Hyderabad's history, especially in contemporary times?
- [20:48]
Danish Majid
Yeah, I would, I would definitely say yes to that because like I mentioned as well previously, we should have gotten these narratives chronicled, these testimonies written down before many who witnessed these very trying times died. And I do kind of understand though why that failure came to be. It's not necessarily just inertia, as much as I'd like to, you know, just attributed to that first and foremost they say in Hindi slash Urdu, you have to, you know, kind of move on if you are to really, you know, succeed in life. So post 48, specifically the Muslim population, they were rendered, you know, they were rendered disempowered from being a ruling religious minority. They were now, now a democrat, a numerical minority in a democratic setup, which I think was inevitable. This was coming. And many, many Hyderabadis, Muslims and non Muslims alike should have grasped this inevitable reality. However. But once the tragedy struck, Muslims did not have that the access to landed income that they did before. With a lot of land distribution coming about due to the new regime and at the same time the government's access, the government jobs which they more or less had monopolies on just they, they were more or less off limits to them now those jobs. And within the business landscape they didn't have much of a presence. It was mostly outsiders brought in by the Nizam to, you know, to help spearhead the commercial landscape. It was Marwaris, Jains, Gujaratis and to a decent extent the Yemeni chaos, which I believe Khadija has done some good work on. Yeah, because a lot of these Ches, they didn't come only as soldiers. A lot of them came as religious scholars, Quran teachers, businessmen too. So with that patronage removed overnight for the 40s to the 60s, it was a very uncertain period for, for many Hyderabadis, what's going to happen? How are we gonna, how are we faring in this new, in this new landscape? But then in the 70s, doors opened for jobs in the Gulf. These oil rich economies, they needed a lot of white collar and blue collar workers to, to keep their own economies afloat. Afloat. Because in, in places like Saudi Arabia, the indigenous population, they either didn't have the education or the empowerment to, to contribute to the economy at that time. It was mostly foreigners who did it. And this is where a lot of Hyderabadis, you know, took advantage of those opportunities and worked in Saudi Arabia. Whether it was a blue collar job or a white collar job, they kept their heads down, worked, worked really hard. No matter what kind of, you know, treatment the Sheikh or the Saudi employer met it out to them, they worked hard. And what's interesting is that these, a lot of these guys who went abroad, they were for the most part princes in their own houses and, and they wouldn't, they'd order down there or they would order around Their own servants within their own houses wouldn't carry out household work at all within the confines of their own home. But they worked hard. But, and it's because of that due diligence economically, Hyderabadi Muslims were able to revive themselves, especially those who themselves or their families had seen a lot of violence during police action. So I think this is part of the reason why these narratives weren't given too much weight and the importance of getting those stories wasn't really stressed upon qk. They were busy reviving themselves. In a way, it's very similar to the Sindhis. In Sindhis all over India, they forgot their culture. They forgot to. Well, not forgot. They. They had to. They had to set aside their rich culture and really and really mourn what happened to them so that they could really become whole again. And besides the fact that, you know, moving on was what said preoccupied a lot of Hyderabadis back then, I think there's also a lack of awareness come unwillingness to. About the. To learn more about the publishing ecosystem outside Hyderabad. Because if one also notice the more indigenous narratives about what went on in Hyderabad or just the overall history of the Dakan, for the most part they're coffee table. Coffee table books that are very hagiographic and a little too nostalgic. While I'm not against coffee table books or nostalgic narratives, sometimes nostalgia lends, sometimes excessive nostalgia brings about a too much inside baseball within these chroniclings because you want to ensure that you build the world for the, for the. For the reader, especially one who's not really familiar with what went on in Hyderabad, though he or she might be a general history enthusiast. You have to really create that world for him because not many people know about Hyderabad or what went on back then. So it's also. This can also be attributed to the fact that, you know, a lot of people in Hyderabad, they don't really. They don't really craft their narratives keeping outsiders in mind. So I think these three are the. These three are the main factors behind this quote unquote failure of sorts.
- [26:43]
Khadija Amenda
Yeah, thank you so much, Danish. I do hope there will be a sort of collective remembrance about Hyderabad's pain as such. This also kind of reminds me of the central theme that emerges across these life stories, which is the question of the Mulkis or the indigenous residents of Hyderabad and the broader Telugu migration question, how do you see these dynamics as ongoing in contemporary Hyderabad?
- [27:10]
Danish Majid
Oh, wow. I'm glad you really asked me this question because recently I did a piece for the print on the Anti Marwadi agitation that transpired because. And I started that piece with saying whoever, whoever thinks this anti Marwadi agitation in Telangana is the first son of the soil versus Outsider outsider schism to, to afflict Telangana has clearly not heard of the Mulki non Mulki struggle of the 50s. Because the Mulkis were basically the erstwhile. The subjects of the erstwhile Nizam's dominions that were no longer ruled by the Asaf Jahid dynasty. And these Telangana Telugus who in the who under the Nizams for the most part were oppressed. They didn't have much opportunity come police action and, and the influx of a lot of these Telugu from what was then the Madras Presidency. The Telugu speaking parts of the Madras Presidency. They a lot of these Telangana Telugu thought that these Madras Presidency Telugu who when who later on were referred to as Anda Telgus would empower them. They spoke the same language, worshiped the same God because ultimately it was the Muslims who were ruling before. But that clearly didn't turn out to be the case. They were mostly taking up the government jobs. There wasn't much empowerment especially with a lot of the educational institutions not being concentrated in Hyderabad city or certain parts of Andhra Pradesh. So that is why, that was why this Mulki non Mulki struggle came about and then later, later morphed into the first Telangana, the first struggle for Telangana statehood in the late 60s. So this, everywhere you go there will always be that you know, son of the soil versus outsider dynamic. Granted in Hyderabad it didn't take on an identity, it didn't take on the, the proportions that it did in Mumbai with the, with the Marathi manus. However, even despite that for the most part Hyderabad has always managed to really welcome people with, with open arms and not really, not really be really militant in their, in their, in their grievances against them. Grievances against these outsiders from what they perceive as you know, you know hoarding a lot of resources. The exceptions can be you know, the Telangana struggle but the Telangana statehood struggles in the 60s and the 2000s but Anders haven't been kicked out. They haven't, they haven't been expelled from the state. You see still, you see them still, you see them still calling Hyderabad home, going about their business and that's what I think is very special about Hyderabad city.
- [30:17]
Khadija Amenda
Thank you so much.
- [30:17]
Neha Navarapu
Yeah, yeah, thank you. As an Andhra person who calls Hyderabad home I would agree to the fact that Hyderabad is actually extremely welcoming and inclusive. But you know your book offers such an interesting exploration of the ways in which Marxism, Communism and the struggle for Telangana animated political life right since like the forties and at times these struggles intersected and produced such passionate forms of political claims making in the region. So were there things that surprised you as you began to research the genealogies of the Telangana struggle and how that has shaped present day politics?
- [30:58]
Danish Majid
Oh, very much so because as I write in chapter, as I Write in Chapter 8, the Andhra Telangana schisms according to Burgullah Narasinghrao whose works I cite heavily, whose interviews I cite heavily in the, in my book, the Anda Telangana schisms had even begun in the late 40s and early 50s because there was, there was a contingency of the Telangana armed struggle that wanted to keep the conflicts going. And this was the, this was under Puchhalapalli Sundraya who was from Andhra. But then the other contingency, they said no, there's a lot of, a lot of casualties are happening within the Telangana district as a result of us keeping this, this armed struggle alive. We need to carry forward the cause within the ambit of the Indian constitution. And within Burgund's interview he, he says that the Andhra Cadars, they were basically making all the decisions from their safe, safe havens of Guntur, Vijayawada or Hamam or the this or the cities that border Hamam. But it was on the ground, it was mostly Telangana folks that were dying. And a lot of you know, these communists who are still around, I won't mention their names but they also told me these, these Andha communists, they didn't really have a sense of humor the way they also ordered us around, it was, it was a little off putting to us. So in a way one could, one could see that as an early harbinger of the, the Mulki non Mulki or the subsequent Telangana struggles that were to happen. But if, but when I mentioned this in Chukaramuyya's chapter and I showed his son the final draft, he said no, this doesn't apply for us. My father was very much, he told the Sundraya line and he said please remove that from this chapter. I'm like not a problem, I'll keep it in the other ones. But since you feel that it doesn't apply to you, not a problem. And going back to also what you kind of said about the Andhra, of the Andhra population, one thing that I really liked that Chukkaramaya and his son brought to the seventh chapter, they said yes, there might have been that certain class of andrites that commercial and politically connected class of andrites who is really, who is really, you know, buying up lands or even hoarding them. But post, post 48 there was another, there was another contingency of andrites who was teachers, who's really going, who is really doing their best to empower a lot of these Telangana Telugus who didn't have access to, to education. That too with Urdu being the medium of instruction in Asaf Ji Hyderabad. Since these people could speak their language, they really did their best to teach them in Telugu and really help them learn in their own mother tongue and really imbibe concepts that they weren't able to do so because of Urdu being the medium of instruction before. So and that's why that's one thing I really liked about you know, Srinivas, Chukka Srinivas and Chukkaramaya is that they didn't, I didn't want to solely shed light on that side of the Anda population that was very politically, politically and economically exploitative and that there were those who came to Hyderabad and also, you know, took in the culture as well too, the indigenous culture.
- [34:40]
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- [35:08]
Danish Majid
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Danish Majid
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- [35:25]
Neha Navarapu
Yeah, and I think that sort of variation was very interesting to note in the last, the last few chapters and the other thing that I think you just spoke about it a little bit in an earlier answer, but you were talking about migration to the Gulf being such a strong presence in the book and its, you know, with sad irony that we talk about it today. But anyway the, you know, the several of the chapters in the book trace the transnational connections between India and Gulf countries, particularly Saudi Arabia.
- [36:00]
Danish Majid
Right.
- [36:00]
Neha Navarapu
And you talk about the flows of people, capital, ideas, aspirations, et cetera, and the back and forth of these circuits really, and how they also extend to North America. So I really enjoyed how you brought yourself and your family into these stories, offering a more intimate lens through which to view how Hyderabad and Hyderabad, these cannot actually be fully understood without adopting this transnational perspective. And you've already spoken a little bit about this, but could I ask you to say a little more about how the Gulf has changed as an anchor point for the city and its communities over the past decades, over the past few decades?
- [36:32]
Danish Majid
Excellent question. The Gulf usually doesn't really figure into narratives about not just Hyderabad, the NRIs, but Indian NRIs, because the Gulf is not really seen as the, the more glamorous destination to, to go and make money sometimes or it's not even seen as the most glamorous place to settle down. And I mean first and foremost because there aren't avenues to settle down there. Naturalization and citizenship avenues aren't there. Only now you can get permanent residency for about 800,000 Riyals or if you're a high net worth individual or a celebrity, you can get a golden visa. But it wasn't always like that. The Gulf, the Gulf expatriate was often very exploited due to this fact that he, he or she didn't have rights as, as an expatriate. And that Indian or the Indian passport sometimes was not worth as much as the, the passport of the American passport of an Indian origin worker there as well. So I really wanted to, you know, really, I really want to bring out these unheralded success stories of the Gulf too. Because even Raghuram Rajan said that it's mostly the Gulf expatriates who contribute the most remittances. Especially since those who go to the west end up, end up. You know, they do. Not that they don't send remittances back home to India or Hyderabad, but a lot of their money is allocated towards building a home there. Especially since citizenship and naturalization avenues there are aplenty. And without the Gulf you were, the Hyderabadi Muslim population would not be able to, they would not be able to speak to the state. Somebody told put it very, very well to me recently, if you see the predicament of North Indian Muslims right now, they're they. Not to say that things were ideal for them fully before 2014, but they aren't as, not as they are now. And I feel like that's the Gulf money that allowed Hyderabadi Muslims to have a presence in the real estate, education and various other economic sectors of Hyderabad, it's really allowed them to have a voice. And that's why a lot of north Indian Muslims who live in Delhi, when they come down, they, they come down here whenever I go, whenever I touch base with them up north. They say Muslims are very visible in Hyderabad and in Bangalore. And it's engulf. Money is very much to thank for that. And so this is, this is the revival aspect. But regarding the future, I don't think Hyderabadi Muslims have fully grasped the aspa, the reality that those avenues are shrinking because the cashier jobs, the mid level management jobs or even the, the associate level jobs that, that were done in Saudi Arabia, they were done mostly by foreigners or if they were done by Arabs, it was non Saudi Arabs. So and you know, these jobs, especially the minal ones like cashiers or the guy who you'd find at a counter, at a, at a store, in a mall, it was mostly a foreigner and a lot of them were Indians who really worked hard, learned Arabic. Because these customer service jobs, even if a customer gets angry at you, you have to, you have to, you have to respond with a smile and really discard your pride. Which not a lot of Saudis could do back then because they were very, they're either really disempowered, There's a certain subset of Saudi Saudis that were disempowered or they just were. So they had easy oil money or easy handouts from the government that working in a customer service jobs that requires you to, you know, swallow a lot of your pride, it just wouldn't suit them. So now Saudis are being empowered and cashier level jobs, they're being Saudi eyes as well too. So I don't think we've kind of grasped that because a lot of these, you know, apartment building complexes which are, which are rent providers which provide a lot of rental income to Hyderabadis or bankroll their kids, education, extravagant weddings that have gotten even more extravagant over the years or even the ability to send their kids abroad, it's all due to that Gulf money. But now with local Saudis taking those jobs, those avenues have disappeared. And I just feel like Hyderabadis, we just haven't always been the best and grasping these realities and knowing what they could mean for us in the long term. Likewise in the police action when the negotiations for the, for the accession were happening and I just think a lot of, you know, Hyderabadi nobles especially, they're like, oh, what's gonna happen? The freedom struggle, the, the anti con, the anti landlord struggles brought about by communist ideals. It's not going to affect us. But by the time, by the time it affected them, it was too late to cater accordingly. So history is kind of repeating itself especially with. And the Gulf is very much a factor into this.
- [41:49]
Neha Navarapu
Thank you. That's really interesting and I really liked how you brought your own journey and your trajectory into the book.
- [41:57]
Khadija Amenda
Yeah, thank you. Sneha and Danish once again. So I think my next question is a bit personal. As someone who worked in the archives at Idara, it was quite moving to learn more about Mohiuddin Kadri's or his extensive literary contributions open up important conversations about Urdu in contemporary Hyderabad. He mentioned that Nearly out of 1,800 private schools in Hyderabad, only 14 are Urdu medium. How do you interpret this sharp decline especially since Hyderabad has historically been an important and hub of Urdu learning?
- [42:38]
Danish Majid
I mean of course the, the fact that English is the. Is the prerequisite for economic success these days. That's definitely one, one contributing factor though at the same time as you may have read in my book as well too right. It's not just solely about you. It's not just solely about English being the. It's not just solely about English taking over or you know, a lot of other hostile elements who don't see Urdu as a quote unquote Indian language and rather and more so as a quote unquote Imperial implant of the Mughals forced down upon every everybody's throats. And these campaigns have definitely in full. In. In full swing as well. Of course we can. Those do play a role. However, the. Through my reportage especially for Mint Lounge, when learning about the Urdu landscape after police action, especially the Humor Society. The humor. The Humor Poet Society of Zinda Dilan, Hyderabad. The sheer petty squabbles of a lot of these people who are great literatures though don't get me wrong. And even personally they might be great human beings as well. However, when it came to really keeping the cause of Urdu alive, I don't think these people, you know, really put their. Put their petty squabbles where they belong and that too amongst themselves. Instead they let you know, they let this factionalism, their rivalries just really permeate the Urdu milieu and a lot of talent that was really looking to, you know, patronage if not, if not, you know. And by patronage I don't just necessarily mean being. Being given platforms at Mushayras, but also using a lot of that money that came from the Gulf to really spearhead these initiatives. The spearhead and you know Ensure that, ensure that these initiatives are not left wanting for money. Because also it's not just, it's not just about manpower, it's about money into. To ensure that these languages stay alive and that cultural production really flourishes. I think, you know, certain, you know, very feudal stuff, feudal era era politics definitely contributed to the downfall of Urdu as well, besides the financial patronage or lack of. So unfortunately, this, this requires a different podcast, I feel, just the politics of the Urdu world in Hyderabad and even all over India. So, yeah, I think, I think we, I think Hyderabadis are just as much to blame for this downfall as are a lot of other hostile parties.
- [45:27]
Khadija Amenda
I do hope that, you know, the younger generation kind of revives Urdu, at least in different formats.
- [45:35]
Danish Majid
I will, I will, I will kind of say that the younger generation is unfortunately exhibiting the same patterns that their elders had shown. They might be a little more tech savvy and slightly a little more fast. They might not have some of that inertia. But at the same time, I just, I. It is saddening to see how some of the younger generation, they themselves are not aware of the benefits of collaborating and, you know, putting resources, pooling resources, intellectual, intellectual, artistic or financial, to, you know, really spearhead this revival. So, yeah, this is, this has been a cause of vexation for me too
- [46:19]
Neha Navarapu
and I'm sure personally too, since you teach Urdu. So yeah, this is a teacher's angst that we can also.
- [46:29]
Danish Majid
Oh, absolutely, absolutely.
- [46:32]
Neha Navarapu
Yeah. So, you know, as a final sort of question about the content of the book, it was really interesting to see so much variation in terms of how your protagonists sort of interpret their religious and ethnic fractures in the region through time. Right. And as you said, I think there's some nostalgia around how syncretic things were at one particular point of time. But in the context of the vis of politics, that is hinged on rampant Islamophobia today as embodied in Madhavi Lata and company. How did your various interlocutors make sense of the religious and political climate of today and how does that affect how they see the past? You know, I was just thinking of, yeah, like, were you able to get a sense of where do they see things heading in Hyderabad?
- [47:24]
Danish Majid
Definitely. I mean, the most. The chapter that really comes to mind, and this is about Aparasu Srinivasa Rao, about how he really saw communal relations in the city, especially Old City evolved after the Ramizabi incident. And he, he himself said these were, these conflicts were unheard of before that, before the very ghastly rape of Rami Zabi which then led to a lot of curfews and riots. And it was just interesting to see how his daughter Shruti, she. What she says about what's going on today in chapter eight, the way I ended it was she said we've gotten used to corruption as a way of life. But with the, with these, with a lot of these communal elements, these belligerent elements gaining ground in the districts of Telangana, this bigotry is something I can never tolerate. But besides how I explored communal relations in the book, in that piece about the Marathi agitation I did mention about how the revival of the MIM and the polarization that happened with Bharatiya Jansang Kham Bharati Bharatiya Janata Party, his infusion in Hyderabad city in the 70s 80s as well. This, this polarization had begun even the, the seeds were laid before this, even before Ramizabi in that, in that the congress they had, they had helped revive the Majlis Ittihad Al Muslim because they needed a bulwark against the leftists which was a powerful opposition in Hyderabad state and in, and in a united Andhra Pradesh as well too. So slowly, slowly even before the MIM was given back their confiscated headquarters in Darussalam, Sultan Salah Din Oases and Oasis, MIM party members, they were slowly, slowly being made to. They were slowly contesting municipal elections and then state elections and then at the same time Tiger Narendra people like Tiger Narendra eventually emerged as, as you know, this polarization was happening. Muslims were being consolidated into areas of old cities and other areas where the MIM could really fortify their vote bank. And at the same time simultaneously the Ganesh celebrations too eventually which, which Tiger Narendra who many refer to as the Raja Singh of that time, he was, he was really pushing forward this, a very communal agenda of his own as well too. And who funded that? And it was the, it was the Hyderabadi Marwadis who funded that. Even the Marwadis from outside. I learned this from KL Mahindra's memoirs because he was a very, a very key figure in the leftist politics of Hyderabad Pre and post 1948. So this polarization had been happening even before Rami Zabi. And the fact that people refer to. Some people referred to Narendra as the Raja Singh of today, it just shows this is, it's just been a pattern that's been repeating all the time. The game is for the. More for the most part the same. But the, the, the, the players changed.
- [50:57]
Neha Navarapu
I was also by the way chuckling at the centrality of road number 12 in the book, I was just like, wow, here it is again. And you know, you can actually see the road so clearly. It is such an iconic thoroughfare.
- [51:12]
Danish Majid
Also, something about road number 12. Glad that you brought that up. It's now renamed to Road Number 12, Shivaji Maharaj Road. And how I found out about this was when I was using Google Maps to get somewhere far away and, and I was starting from road number 12, it said start, start on road number. The Google map said start on Road Number 12, Shivaji Maharaj Road. I'm like, no way. So it's interesting how despite being a place where you can get the most richest information about, you know, the cosmopolitan haven that Hyderabad was.
- [51:50]
Khadija Amenda
Yeah.
- [51:51]
Danish Majid
And you know that too from Odesh Rani Baba especially. Who's the who is a kist who really embodies that cosmopolitan Isa Muzi, not Ganga Jamna, not Ganga Jamni. Isamuzi Kaizeeb of Hyderabad. She lives there and now that whole road, it's been rechristened. So it's interesting to say the least.
- [52:17]
Neha Navarapu
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
- [52:19]
Khadija Amenda
Danish, once again, thank you for joining us here and writing a timely and much needed book like this. If I may ask our last question for the day. Are you working on your next book project? And if so, can we get a glimpse into what this is about?
- [52:36]
Danish Majid
I was working even, even a little before the book came out. I was, I was at work on a Urdu to English translation of a. Of a biography that was written by a famous, famous but very forgotten figure of Jammu Kashmir. And however, I had even gotten the permission from the author's family, family members, nearest of kin. But that has hit a bit of a snag. Not, not necessarily too much from my side. And if it works out, great. If it doesn't, whatever happens for the. Is for the best. But whatever the next book will be, if it's not a translation, it's going to require a lot of research because, you know, research, research and foundational information. Gaining that, you know, acquiring that is quite the task. But you'll be among the first to know when, when something new materializes. That isn't this translation that's been put on hold for now.
- [53:41]
Neha Navarapu
Well, on that note, thank you so much, Danish. This is such a, such an interesting conversation about such an interesting book. And really congratulations once again on all the praise and accolades the book has been picking up. Rightly so. And yeah, I look forward to hanging out in Hyderabad. Hopefully the three of us will have a chance.
- [54:00]
Danish Majid
Definitely.
- [54:01]
Neha Navarapu
Yeah. To hang out in person.
- [54:03]
Danish Majid
We'll go to Barkas for some Hazrami Haris.
- [54:06]
Neha Navarapu
That sounds great.